sailFar.net

Water

  What to do about water?

  I have a storage tank up in the bow (monel) that holds about 15 gal of water (non original, in original location).?  I regularly drink the water from this tank, and it has not hurt me yet (arguable). :P

  I also have 3, 6 gallon 'Jerry jugs'? that I can bring aboard, but don't care for the 'tied on the rail' arrangement for a couple reasons.I don't like the weight and windage up there, nor do I like the risk of losing them overboard off shore when I am most likely to need them. :o

  I do believe it is important to protect your water, and keep it in more then one container so that if it gets contaminated you do not lose the whole lot. :'(

  Carl Alberg was a genus.

  ;D His design of my boat included a 'water collection system' which many are not aware of.   You can simply plug the midships deck drains, and then the rain water will all run aft to the drains at the waist.

These drains are conveniently plumbed to two length's of flexible hose that are just the perfect length to run back into the cockpit through the cutout in the lazy-rat (outboard models) or just into the lazy-rat (inboard) to fill your Jugs.   Now, I am not thinking this water would be best for drinking, cause even if you let it rain for a few minutes before you start to capture the run off you are still going to be taking the salty run off that has been washing down your boat.. but if it rains long enough, or you are in desperate need it would sure beat drinking sea water.   This would be the ideal opportunity to capture water for general cooking and washing chores though.


The water makers of any greater capacity are (IMHO) just too much for a small boat.  It takes a lot of pressure to force water through the RO filter to make water, and any way you slice it that takes current.  I know there are some 'tow behind' units that don't take electricity, but instead work by directly converting cash dollars into water.I am not sure how well this works, and don't see my cruising kitty supporting finding out. :-[

So, enough of my rambling on.. What are you doing about this water issue?  ???

(edit to fix weird formatting errors)

Ever thought about going to your local camping goods store and purchasing the colapsable water jugs. They can be moved about for balast when full and squashed flat when empty. Triska carries something like 50 gallons in her keel tank. Makes for a rather nice stiff boat.

Did I mention I used approximately ( ;D) 1400 lbs of fresh water as water ballast when I cruised the Bahamas.  If worse came to worse, I could syphon it ;) ::) :D.

(Note: Craig (s/vFaith) and I have the same type of boat - Pearson Ariels.)

Craig -

I plan to make water tanks out of the original under-berth stowage. That'll keep it low, it'll be in multiple separate tanks (in case of leakage or spoilage), and will be an efficient use of that odd shaped space. Against the hull like that, each tank will have a low-spot where I'll draw the water from, meaning I'll be able to draw nearly all of it out when/if needed. In case of a holing, I will lose the water in that tank, but at the same time the sea won't be able to get further into the boat. I've got to do some measuring and some math to figure out how much water I can hold down there, but I can't think of a good reason *not* to use that area for this purpose.

The other place I can think of is where the porta-potty sits now. If the bow tank is 15-20 gallons, that area should hold another 10, easy, and it should be able to find a ready-made tank that would fit that spot.

I plan to rip out the old Monel bow tank, and use that area for stowage of spares and lightweight objects, since it is so far forward.

on my ariel I sacrificed the entire v berth into a "garage'this is where I stored everything including extra water.I put 8 of those 5 gallon sparkletts water bottles in those stackable containers.I did away with the cusions at they took up to much space.I found that nomatter howmuch you try that water from inboard tanks alway develops a stale odor.I used that water for rinsing off after a sea water shower.I used the sparkletts drinking water for.....drinking.this setup with the front end being for storage is what I did with the triton and what I am doing with my current boat that I call " the range of m'ocean" a play on words rom a medical term.

That had been pretty much my plan for passages. Take a lot of bottled water, stored in a couple of places. Use the built-in tank water for washing, body, dishes, showers rinse, etc. Bottle water for consumption, tank water for utility and emergency if needed...

Eric,

  How much did it seem to affect Starcrest's sailing to have so much weight at/above the waterline?  I read your account of the voyage (thanks again for replying to that original email I sent you.)  I just had to hear the 'rest of the story' after I heard of your voyage on the sailnet forum.  ;D



I read were many  'authoritative' sources recommend a gallon per day per person.  That can ba an awful lot of water!

  I have heard that adjusted down to half a gallon, (but would prefer not to adjust).  Little things like rinsing my face, and other 'extravagant' uses of water don't seem like too much to ask.   ;)

  I was sailing yesterday, and looked down, and came up with another idea.... my cockpit drains have sea cocks on them that could be closed under the right conditions to allow a few inches of water to accumulate in the cocpit for rinsing clothes.  If your cockpit drains were not connecte4d to seacocks (many are not) you might be able to use those simple flat rubber drain covers that some people use in bathtubs to accomplish the same purpose.

  I do carry bottled water onboard, a few gallons as a safeguard for when I am offshore.  I figure if I ever got seriously in trouble (like de-masted in the gulf stream) and had not left with a full tank forward I want to have something aboard 'just in case'.

  As for washing dishes, I also plan to install a small foot pump to draw sea water to allow me to do all but the final rinse of the dishes without using fresh water......

One gallon per person per day.

Ok, so I'm to be out for 3 weeks at a time when making the passage. I should figure on water for 4 weeks ( 30 days ) just in case, that times 2 = 60 gals H2O
if that is split into 5 gals , = 12 / five gal containers/ 2 people/1 month

6 forward, 6 aft, not too bad, split port /starboard...

Rain is not necessarily a bad thing.  Keep your dinghy clean and you have fresh water for a bath.  If it is raining hard enough, as during a thunderstorm :o, you can jump in a wash with salt water then rinse with rain water. 

I use a rag to wipe up the dew in the morning and clean the boat with it.

since its best to have most of the weight up fowards it didnt affect it much at all.I remember one time I had nine people evenly distributed(each had their own pfd) and it did perform sluggish at the helm.there was a small geiser of water coming up in the sink but it was not much of a concern.the same was true of the leeward cockpit scupper.remember as you continue onward the payload becomes lighter.one other note...on the way back from both trips as the waterbottles were emptied,,,,,,,I used vp-os plotting sheets with indelible markers and wrote notes....messages in bottles....who what when where....I set these afloat years ago.my mind yellows in the sun....when I think of where these bottles are today

these guys even do custom if ya can't find it on their LONG list www.ronco-plastics.com

Does anyone here has experience with any make of flexible water tanks? Defender.com shows 3 brands: Nauta, Vetus, Plastimo, and I also found a company out of Australia named TurtlePac which makes *very tough* ones. I imagine that there are differences in quality, I'm wondering how big the difference is.

I'm also wondering if using these bladders inside a sealed, prepared locker area would be a quicker, easier, and maybe more convienent way to have tankage aboard "Katie Marie", versus actually making watertight, drinking-quality tanks integral to the hull.

Ideally, I'd like these areas to serve as watertight (or darned-near watertight) compartments, as part of an overall way to build safety into the boat.

I need one too
Any info would be great
Ice

As I related in the other post I use the ones from the camping supply store. 1 to 5 gallon size, plastic. Once empty fold up and stow untill you reach a place to refill. Leave space for other things once they are empty. (http://www.bentgear.com/images/large/REL0001.jpg) Now you might be talking about water bladers.

There is someone on Ebay who is selling plan for a home made water maker, also a generator

DC Genset and Watermaker    Item number: 8026382806   
      
Build your own 60gph watermaker for under $2000.00
Item number: 4602185173   

Jack -

I used those earlier this year, but they seemed a bit flimsy for what I am looking for now (I somehow made one leak, once), which is a long term, primary tankage. I'm thinking to seal off the below-berth spaces, pad them with closed cell foam (for protection of the bladders, and for flotation), and then use the bladders inside that area. While they would be removeable, it wouldn't be really easy to do so - I'd like the areas to be fairly watertight at the least - think gasketed cover held down by screws or bolts on 6" centers. I'll rig plumbing for filling/draining the bladders.

At least, that's the thought while I learn more...

I to have considered a flexible tank under the vee birth. Right now the only thing up there is the head tank. There is room and it might be a bit of an effort to plumb, but I think I could manage it. Right now I believe my tank is 16 Imperial gallons - like to double that.

When cruising the Caribbean I will mostly be single handing - with visitors. I'm hoping that would be sufficient. The rest of the time I live in the Great Lakes - not like fresh water supply is really a problem.

Cheers!

John

My 1984 Jenneau had a flex water tank from the factory...no problems..sold the boat at 15yrs old. Revival has a flex tank for waste from a PO...no leaks yet. Both were the heavy black variety

A guy I know used Vetus Fuel bladders on a trip from FL to Costa Rica - he was happy with those.  The biggest thing I can see with your use is making sure that all the little sharp fuzzies from glass work are sanded smooth.   I think I would line the area with a carpet instead of foam for your chafe protection.  To gain some extra emergency flotation you might look at some kayak/canoe air bladders that you can fit into low or non use areas.  For a total disaster type thing you could look at carrying a large inflatable bag and a SCUBA or CO2 tank.

Teach -

Yes, the area will be smooth all over - no pointy things allowed! :D

Carpet would work fine as abrasion-resistant liner and I've thought about using it (and may still), but I'm trying to use foam products of one sort or another as much as possible inside the boat. I know that using foam as a liner in these areas won't add much in the way of flotation for the boat in and of itself, but like backpackers say, "Watch the ounces, and the pounds will take care of themselves". Every little bit helps, right? The goal is to have a boat which will have enough flotation to not sink in a worst-case scenario. Jim Baldwin on "Atom" spurred this thinking, and he makes good points on the subject. If the boat will float on its own even when filled with water, I won't need to carry a liferaft, and may even be able to repair it at sea if the need arises. (I've been meaning to start a thread on this topic, I've found some good info relating to it, I'll do that soon.)

I'll make covers for the bladders of slippery fabric, as another step to avoid abrasion. Also to compartmentalize the areas so that they hold the bladders in a manner that would preclude movement-induced abrasion. Probably all overkill, but hey why not? :D

Thanks for the input, Frank and Teach! :)

Kurt- we have a Vetus 19 gallon tank set under the cockpit on Tehani. I used a 20 gallon flex tank as one of my water tanks aboard my trimaran for several years while we were cruising. They work very well. You really won't need the carpet- just be sure there is no sharp corners, points, etc. You may want to lash the corners- most have grommets- if the space is large enough for the tank to move around- on Tehani I built the space JUST to fit the tank while full, so it can't move.

good ol' boat magazine did an artical, on how to build your own water maker. I can try an get the info if you want me too. it looks kinda big for a smaller boat though.
I plan on useing alot of those bottled water and a few bigger tanks with filters before the water enters the tank.
one of the boats I'm looking at is very roomy and is missing the cushions, but I'm only looking a bed for one person, and maybe a couch for any guest...also an air matress for those extra folks too drunk to find their dingy. I figure that gives me alot of room for tankage and bottles.

Bill

That's 2 votes for Vetus... :) Thx, CJ.

Of the 3 brands at Defender, Vetus is the middle-priced line. Nauta takes the "way-higher priced" honors, while the Plastimos are so much cheaper that I'd really want to see them and compare before purchase. I have a feeling that the Plastimos are something like a polyethylene inner bladder with a nylon outer, and I know you can get a similar product from CampMor in a multi-gallon size for cheap.

Looking at the Vetus (http://www.vetus.com/flexible_tanks/flexible_tanks.cfm) website, it says that "the outlet is supplied loose for easy installation in any desired position.". Did you do this with your tank CJ? Was it difficult to install the outlet?

I think it will be fairly straightforward to make compartments for 4 of the 14.5 gallon tanks in my under-berth areas. The size of the tanks seems just about right for that location, and that would be 56 gals of water, a little over 450 lbs of weight low and close to CE when tanked up fully. I'd probably carry also another 20 gal or so bladder (maybe one of the cheaper Plastimos, since it wont be used as much, and will be easier inspected) that could be stowed most of the time, and only used on a long crossing, or if I was going "away" for a while and wouldn't be assured of water availability ahead of time.

Plastimo makes several size water bladers. A big pluss is you can find them on E bay.

Quote from: The Edge on December 26, 2005, 04:35:38 PM
Did I mention I used approximately ( ;D) 1400 lbs of fresh water as water ballast when I cruised the Bahamas.  If worse came to worse, I could syphon it ;) ::) :D.

We had discussed this with regards to Mac's and other water ballast boats.  The idea was to create a plastic bladder that would/could be put in the water ballast compartment and filled with fresh water with the appropriate plumbing to the sink/shower setup in the boat.  As the freshwater was used up, salt water could be let in to maintain the ballast.

Frank,

  Do you happen to remember the brand of that bladder?

Does anyone else have any direct experience with these?

  I have considered this for a while, but have a friend (with an Ariel) who needs to replace a faulty tank in the bow.

THanks,

I don't have any direct knowledge of this device, but it sounds interesting and would remove the necessity of carrying LOTS of water on board. Check out the Aquifer 150. It weighs 106 pounds but it make 150 gallons per DAY!

http://www.spectrawatermakers.com/

That is a cool little unit.   ;D

  I purchased a used PUR 80, with the intent of doing just as you suggested.  It is a pretty large system, and draws a lot more current then the unit you mention.

  I don't like the idea of reducing tankage allot for a watermaker, since a failure might leave you wanting.

The only problem I see with watermakers is the maintenance and electricity usage that they use.   I think the idea of a watermaker is a good one, but my boat is both weight and electrical usage sensitive.  I was looking at the Waterlog watermaker (http://www.watermakers.ws/).  Has anyone seen/used this product?

Completely off topic, but when "Waterlog Watermakers" makes a non-MS centric web site, I might consider their product.  You know, W3C compliance and user friendliness is not that hard, and is considered good customer service in the modern era of the Internet.

{/rant}

Did a little more research on the Waterlog watermaker....it is not looking very good.  Major complaints with the manufacturer about lack of support, quality control problems, warranty repair problems, etc...

This is really too bad... The Waterlog looks like a very interesting product...

Okay, so if the concern for using a typical RO watermaker is current draw, but the "Waterlog" seemed neato since it uses a tow to provide power, why not employ a towed generator to supply the current for a normal watermaker?

I mean, why have multiple purpose-built devices on board that take up space when not in use?  Using a towed generator to supply current for the RO watermaker can also be used to charge batts, heat water, run nav or cabin lights, etc.

while the idea of using a towed generator to power the watermaker is a good one, it falls short on a couple of fronts.  One, most towed water generators don't have the power capacity to power  a decent sized watermaker.  Two, the watermaker still needs power when you're at anchor.  Three, will the watermaker be usable if you have to abandon ship—very unlikely. 

The other real issue I had with the traditional watermakers is the amount of space and plumbing they seem to require.

PUR 80 (12 L per hour) draws 8 amps.  You run it for one hour a day, that's 8 amp-hours per day.

The Aquair 100 (http://www.ampair.com/homepages/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=5&MMN_position=9:9) by Ampair generates 2 amps at 4 kts boatspeed.  Tow it for 4 hours to cover the draw to make 12 L water.

That unit is also convertable to a wind generator, which addresses water making at anchor (so long as there is some wind).

As for abandon ship tools, there are hand operated RO watermakers; I am sure some of them can be used with electric as well, or convertable from one to the other.

Space and plumbing?  Well, that's the real trade-off.

I don't know if anyone read the complete advertisement that I posted but the Aquifer 150 also has an optional SOLAR panel for charging it's battery. That's why I thought it was so interesting.

As I said, I have no personal knowledge of this device, but they seem to have covered almost ALL the bases, with perhaps the exception of weight, since it's no bigger than your average cooler.

Nice idea, but its also very bulky, and very, very expensive.  I just looked at pricing, and the only site that had posted pricing was Austrailian...and was over $10,000 AUD.  UGH

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 29, 2006, 04:18:13 PM
I just looked at pricing, and the only site that had posted pricing was Austrailian...and was over $10,000 AUD.  UGH

OOPS! Sorry, I didn't check the prices.  :o Well, on to the next brilliiant idea!  ::)

QuoteOOPS! Sorry, I didn't check the prices.  :o Well, on to the next brilliant idea!  ::)

  No, I don't think it is at all unreasonable.  Ok, maybe the price but not the idea.  Sure the floating condo dwellers can't meet the energy requirements, but the small boat Sailor is not looking to fill the hottub, or run the dish washer......  ;D

  Like Smollet posted, the energy requirements do not come out too bad when you are only running the unit long enough to make water to drink, and maybe take a sunshower.....

  My PUR 80 is a bit large, but the bigger problem with a unit like this is that it needs to be used, or else the membrane has to be pickled.  Much more realistic would be a smaller unit like a PUR 40.  Cost wise, I know some folks make their own out of pressure washer parts.  Cheaper, but then you have to generate (or invert) lots of 115VAC.  Inverters are going to require a lot of current, since motors are very high load (at least to start) and there are lots of losses for the inefficiency of converting dc-ac.

  Still, having a small-ish H2O maker on board could provide a level of self sufficiency that might make the space and violation of the "KISS" principal worth the effort.

  IMHO.


(Anyone wanna trade a PUR 40 for a PUR 80?)  ;D ;D ;D

Oh, no argument from me, that having a small RO watermaker on-board is an excellent resource, and makes sailing far on a small boat much more feasible.   I'd just like to find a way to do it that isn't going to be a royal PITA or cost a bucketload of boat bucks.  :D

We use a flexible Turtle tank for the under-cockpit diesel tank (that way I can still get access to the stern gland and prop shaft, I just pump the fuel into a second (spare) flexi tank that we could lay out on the sole for the duration of the proceedure. Never had to do it yet, but the flexu tank is indeed very tough and serves us well as the big cruising tank.
We also have a 70litre (I think) Turtle flexi water bladder. It lives under the V berth. There is also a rigid stainless tank of about 50 litres...but it may well be not long for this world. It seems to be getting in the way of all my layout plans and it is a very flat but vertical tank. so lots of weight up top when full.


The thing that we came up with that actually works brilliantly well for us is that we went to a juice bottling factory and bought some empty, never used, 3.5litre juice bottles with the rectangular profile and the floppy handles. made out of PET plastic.

We have about 40 of them (though have not needed them all at once...yet). They allow us to first and foremost keep really good track of our water usage, really knock the potential for contamination (except form the original filling tap) on the head and to use the bottles as space filler around other goods that need storage. It lets us carry the weight very low and we basically just open the one or two a day we need.

I figure that as a worst case scenario, there is a few hundred kilos of bouyancy represented by the empties too.

Alex.

I like the idea of lots of smaller bottles—two gallons or so in size.  Just remember that water should be stored in the dark, as it will stay fresh longer that way.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on August 29, 2006, 08:59:10 AM
Just remember that water should be stored in the dark, as it will stay fresh longer that way.

Anybody use water purification agents in their tank water?

When we have stored water for long term around the house (storm prep, etc), we used iodine crystals sold for treating water while backpacking.  It does add an unpleasant flavor, but the bad buggies cannot grow in it.  Adding a flavoring such as kool aid when time to drink helps with the taste issue.

I've found that water that has been treated with a Brita filter seems to stay fresh for longer than water not treated that way.  Whether it is from the anti-bacterial properties of the silver compounds used in the filter, or something else, I can't say.  But I generally try to fill my bottles with Brita treated water.  This also gets rid of alot of the unpleasant taste, chemicals, and other things that might be in the water. 

Try an inline filter (available at west marine for about 30 bucks). They have active charcoal and coconut fibers and all kind sof other crazy stuff to filter out unpleasant tastes and bad stuff. The same tank of water has been used all summer and it tastes as fresh as any evian! I've also heard of adding a bit of bleach to your tank, that seems a little scary to me... Anyone heard of these rumors that plastic containers shouldn't be reused? A conspiracy that the bottled water companies are plotting so that you keep buying fresh bottles of water?

Cheers,
Sonnie

What I hear it is only some plastic containers, not all. The Thin walled clear ones should not be re-used, but the blue thick ones are ok as are the heavy-duty white ones...so I hear.

And for real not left in the sun and re-used.

Same as many plastics should not be used in the microwave.

As for the beach...survival tactics say add a bit of beach, VERY SMALL amount. if you are unsure about the water. I think it is pure clorox type not the blue or colored stuff

I think you mean BLEACH. Adding some beach to your drinking water just means you need to strain the sand (and various crustaceans) through your teeth.


I have found that the PET clear plastic juice bottles we use are still fine after three years and have not broken down at all. We do not leave them in the sun or expose them to excessive heat...we also do not put them through the microwave. Not one has ever leaked, though I imagine it is the seals and threads of the caps that would fail first) .


Alex.

Some of the commercial water purifiers contain the same 'active' ingredient as 'bleach.'  The trick is concentration.  You don't want to drink 'pure bleach' (which is mostly water anyway), but if it is diluted properly, it will kill that bad stuff but not the guys drinking the water.

I use iodine as a purification agent, but I've never used it on board; we have no usable on-board tankage on the present boat.  Filtering and charcoal are good for particulates and organic impurities, but do NOTHING to kill biologic agents in the water.  That is what bleach or iodine do.  Just like with bleach, you don't dump pure iodine in the water.

That way it works is the bottle comes with some iodine crystals in it.  You add water until the bottle is full.  There is a temperature scale on the side of the bottle that is keyed to a "Number of Capfuls Per Quart" of water to be treated.  So, you are diluting a saturated solution by about 1-2 teaspoons to a quart or so.

The iodine does 'discolor' the water some and gives it a taste.  Using Kool-Aid or other drink mix helps with the taste aspect.  We have stored 10+ gallons of water in small (2 quart) bottles for 4-5 years at a time with nothing unpleasant growing in the bottle.

Just remember two things... Chlorine bleach is only effective for a short time after adding it to the water IIRC.  Also, Iodine based disinfecting compounds are not very effective on some of the salt-water based organisms...as the sea has plenty of iodine-based compounds in it.

Who is trying to disinfect salt water for drinking?

Generally not such a great idea......  :P



;D

Quote from: Captain Smollett on September 07, 2006, 12:54:31 PM
Who is trying to disinfect salt water for drinking?

I'm just saying that on a salt-water boat, you may have gotten some salt water into the fresh water tanks, and that the beasties in the water may not get killed by iodine.  On my friend's boat, the deck fill leaks a bit, so if he gets much water in the cockpit, where the deck fill for the water tank is located, he occassionally gets some salt water contamination.  He's re-doing the tank fills this winter.

What is the consensus about the use of watermakers? Are they reliable enough to use as supplements to the boat's normal supply? As an emergency supply? I understand that some watermakers are operated manually and don't require electricity. I have a video of 'Jean de Sud' a solo circumnavigation in an Alberg 30. ...Great video by the way....He is shown loading his boat with about a ton of provisions for the last leg of his voyage. But he made very few stops. I think a total of 3 or 4. At one point of his voyage he nearly ran out of water.

Oded

My personal view about watermakers are that they are not worth the electricity or the expense - except PERHAPS the manual kind for a lifeboat.  YMMV and this is one of those things that each person will decide for themselves.  To me, a RO water maker is not a KISS tool.

I've been noodling around with solar still design ideas suitable for using aboard.  In a pinch, something like this CAN keep you alive.  Beyond that, I go with KR's comment of gathering rain and, well, simply carrying enough water.

The hand pumped ones are a survival situation only tool, at this stage of development. Depending on which latitudes (temps) you are at, it is quite possible that you will sweat more then you make...

the tow behind unit seems to be a good bet in terms of no-power watermakers...but amongst various other doubts and hesitations to be had (like the fact that you have $2500 of "thing" towing along like a fishing lure 40 feet behind your boat, attached by a rubber hose.) an issue with the company that makes them seems to be that they have no interest at all in servicing or even dealing with their customers.

Seems that the people that designed the unit and set up the company got bought out by "investors" who have neither clue nor interest and thus getting spare parts, or on occassion the unit that you actually paid for, is an excercise in frustration. Pity, really.

Solar stills are a usefull survival device, though the unit that I have my eye on, that is in the final stages of development locally, is a watermaker that runs off a pulley wheel to the engine/prop shaft. This means you can set the engine to nuetral and the boat moving through the water will turn the prop and generate a small amount of water as you sail. And of course, whenever you fire up the engine to get anywhere, you will make fairly decent quantities of drinking water (since most yacht engines never run at anything like their intended torque settings, this actually puts a little more pressure on a deisel engine and makes it work "better".

You still have all the hassles of filters and chem cassettes though...


Alex.

Many cruisers on larger boats seem to be going to watermakers, and reducing water capacity in tankage. The first part seems fine, but reducing tankage on a vayaging boat seems fool hardy to me. To do so means that you are relying on something mechanical to continue functioning to KEEP YOU ALIVE!!! Not me brudder!! If I'm gonna sail on passage, I'm gonna have enough water on board PLUS a safety margin, or I AIN"T GOIN"!!!

To do otherwise just seems stupid to me.

Now there IS the fact that many many "Cruisers" never go more than a day or two on any passage, so smaller tankage would be a safe setup. But for longer ones, no way Jose!! 

Cruisers who are buying into the current big-boat, lots-of-power-consuming-gadgets concept of cruising are installing watermakers, but here's a gadget that might fit better in with this board's KISS principle. (No, I don't have any financial interest in the product.)

At the Annapolis Boat Show earlier this month I saw a product called Sea-Pack (www.sea-pack.com), which is a $99.95 emergency watermaker that relies on osmosis, rather than reverse osmosis. The device is very simple: an inner plastic bag separated from an outer bag by an osmotic membrane.

You put a special sugar solution into the inner bag and fill the outer bag with sea water. Osmosis pulls the fresh water from the outer to the inner bag--producing a drinkable solution that's also high in sugar and electrolytes. I tasted it, and it isn't bad -- a bit like a diluted sports drink.

No, this isn't a substitute for packing water, but it would be a great addition to a ditch bag or life-raft cannister.

Hope I'm not putting a plug for this why-didn't-I-think-of-this product into the wrong thread.

--Joe

<fixed link so it point to correct website and not to an spam page-Dougcan>

I think that a manual water maker may be a good idea...but they do require a fair amount of regular maintenance, especially once the membrane is in use, and no longer "pickled".   

Personally, I think packing a dozen extra water bottles, to have an extended surplus is probably a better idea, and probably less expensive and less work in the long run. 

I've done some informal testing with tap water that has been re-bottled after being processed with a water treatment filter, and think that the shelf life is fairly decent, provided the bottles were properly cleaned and treated before being filled.  I prefer the heavier clear plastic bottles, rather than the thinner kind for long-term water storage.  Gatorade bottles seem to work quite well, and seem to be very durable.

we also carry 5 to 10 extra gallons of water in one gallon and one half gallon jugs. The built in tanks on Tehani total 38 gallons.

Laura uses the one gallon jugs as trim ballast to move around as we consume food, etc. They seldom actually get used, except towards the end of a cruise when we really don't need a back up any longer.

We found some very heavy pale blue jugs at the local grocery store that are really nice- but the lids suck. They tend to crack easily. She's been buying juices such as Cran berry juice which come in heavy jugs. Those have held up well.

I keep 'just' missing some flexable bladders on Ebay.  My current plan is to use something much larger then I need under the cockpit.  The excess capacity will be inflated with air to pick up some reserve buoyancy.

That is the idea anyway.

  Anyone looking for a PUR-8o?

>I keep 'just' missing some flexable bladders on Ebay.<

http://www.bidnapper.com/

or google 'snipe' for other, similar, programs that help you bid.

Oded

Quote from: oded kishony on October 21, 2006, 06:33:31 AM
What is the consensus about the use of watermakers?

Dave & Mandy on their Little Cruiser (14') used Survivor 35, most of their Bahamas trips:
http://www.microcruising.com/reviewb.htm

cool site... thanks for the link.  :D

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on October 24, 2006, 05:51:44 PM
cool site... thanks for the link.  :D

Ditto that, + a Grog for sailor.  ;D

I've had this plan to build a new sailboat for some time.  Of course, I don't have the space to build, so I've really only been working on it in my mind.

But I've been thinking for some time that perhaps the best tankage solution is to not have any tanks at all.  Instead, I considered that a very decent solution would be to just grab a bunch of 3-6 gallon water jerry jugs that would be slid, as necessary, into a recess by the sink and have a water line dropped in them from the pump. 

Advantage: if it is necessary to fill up away from the dock, you can dinghy the jugs to shore and not worry about transferring the water to the permanent tank.

Advantage: The jugs can be moved about the boat as necessary for trim.

Advantage: On long trips it will be easier to manage usage.

Advantage: Cleaning the jugs, flushing them, emptying them for winter storage (pumping out a 20 gallon tank with a little galley flipper pump takes a long time), and replacing when necessary is easier.

Advantage: When staying close to home, it isn't necessary to keep as much tankage on-board.  Alternately, if a longer than typical trip is planned it isn't as much trouble to add  capacity.

Advantage: If one jug was broken there is lots of redundancy.

Advantage: If it is necessary to take on water from questionable sources, that water can remain isolated from the majority and either treated or held on to for emergency use only.

Disadvantage: If a lot of time is spent at dock, it is not as convenient to top off the tanks.

Disadvantage: If you are right in the middle of cooking (or doing anything, really) and you need some water when a jug runs out, it will be necessary to swap jugs first which could lead to a ruined meal, or greasy handprints all over the boat.

The last Disadvantage might be alleviated somewhat if there was room for two jugs side by side to that when one runs out it will be quick and easy to switch to the second.

If it works, here is a picture of something that might work.

(http://www.waterzilla.com//talash/images/water_bottles_bt30003_2t.gif)

Here's a four gallon jug that looks tougher:
(http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/05NDC/images/01232.jpg)

I share your fantasy of building a boat.  :)  The reality is that buying a used boat is far more efficient if not quite as satisfying.

An important consideration to using small containers is to have a very reliable, safe method of securing them.

Oded

I'd second Oded, and emphasize that a 2-1/2 gallon bottle of water weighs about 20 lbs., and would be a lethal projectile in a knockdown or rollover.

Building your own boat may not be the most efficient method of getting on the water.  It might not even be the most economical.  But it is one way of ensuring you get what you want.  In the end, though, the whole point to building is that you like to build boats.  I've got two smaller boats under my belt, and someday I'll get the bigger (but not too big) third.  In the meantime I sail my Seafarer 24 (which needs enough work to keep me busy for awhile).

As to securely storing the water jugs, I'd like to think that it shouldn't be necessary to point that out.  Anyone considering any serious passages I would hope would have everything of any mass well secured.  If I where to build a new boat (or seriously modify one) then secure storage space for water jugs would have to take on the same importance as secure storage of regular tanks (or anchors, or canned food, or anything of any substance).  Taking it a little further, most long distance sailors I'm aware of keep at least a couple jerry jugs available for emergency rations, so secure storage has already been worked out, at least to some degree.

Anyhow, the desirability of this method (at least to me, if no one else) was underscored this year when I was preparing for a one week cruise and found the water in the tank (which I had filled up several weeks earlier) had a bad odor.  So I flushed the tank using that silly little hand operated flipper pump.  It took forever.  Then I mixed a little bleach in with the water, agitated it by sailing for a few hours, and drained it again.  Fill with fresh water, and drain again.  The water finally seemed much better.  But then I noticed the supply hose, originally clear, was now a dark brown.  It may be safe (I hope), but it was unappealing, so I changed that out.  During this process it occurred to me that I rarely need to have 20 gallons on-board with my current sailing habits (small boat, but not yet sailing far); but once or twice a year longer trips would make it desireable.  Smaller containers then make sense.   Then I thought about my dreams of some longer term voyaging and it still seemed to make sense.  Actually, even now that I've thought about it more, I'm not sure why this isn't a more common method of water storage on small boats.

I think the main reason it isn't more common is convenience and simplicity.  It is far simpler to get a hose and fill a deck fill pipe or two to fill one or two large tanks than it is to have to fill fifteen smaller tanks.  It is also easier to clean and maintain one or two large tanks than it is to clean and maintain 15 smaller portable tanks.  Finally, using the water from a large built-in tank is far simpler than it is to do from many smaller tanks, as you have pointed out above. 

In terms of self-sufficiency, especially for a small boat sailor in foreign waters, where getting known good sources of water is more of an issue, the smaller tanks may make a lot more sense, since filling with a questionable water source would only contaminate the tanks filled, and not the ones previously filled elsewhere.

I have four 5 gal flexible jugs sold in camping stores; this with my 40 gal install in the boat should do me for most crossings.

Godot,

  I think the idea of using the same jugs to transport and to store water in is a good one.  Especially well suited for a small boat. _{Grog on me!}

  One point I might add to your list of 'advantages' is that you would no longer have to store jerry jugs to transport water in.  I really like any idea that gives more then one purpose to an item, and if you can gain utility.... and safety..... at the same time.....

  It's a no-brainer as far as I am concerned ;D

just one of the many things you can do when you are designing your own purpose built boat rather then one mass produced.  Much easier to build in an idea like that then try to retrofit it.

I prefer the 2-1/2 gallon or 3 gallon jugs instead.  They're easier to carry and easier to store.  :D

I've been thinking kind of like godot. Although using several small bladders, instead of several small hard canisters (I already have 2 of the 4 gal blue ones, for hurricane bugouts). The space I have decided is to be for water is that odd long triangular area under the settees.

Right now, I'm thinking 4 of the small Plastimo bladders, which would give me 52 gallons in 4 separate containers. The bladders will work for me because of the shape of the space; if I had my druthers, I'd rather use a sub-$10 hard container, but I think that this is one place I am going to go with a commercial 'marine' product.

Faith continues to evolve as we make our way down the coast.

Our water stowage started out as the original tank forward, and 4, 6.5gallon jerry jugs. (and plans to add 2 more before we cross to the islands) that we keep in the bottom of the cockpit lockers. Those cans are really hard to get out, and use most of the lockers. THe ~39 gallons of water will be very handy when going to explore the Exumas but doesn't stow very well and the cans when full are very hard to lift out of the locker (I had hernia surgery about 8 weeks ago so I am trying to take it easy).  :P


We only use storage under the starboard settee for 'emergency' bottled water, which again does not utilize it very well.  I counted the .5 liter bottles as I took them out, and we had 135 of them in there...  :o

I looked at at the Plastimo 39 gallon water bladder with a fill in the cockpit and a 'y' valve on the original 1/2" hose leading from the original tank forward.
It is 27" x 55" and comes with a 1 1/2" fill barb and a 1/2" supply barb.

From the Plastimo site;

Quote
Plastimo flexible water tanks - consist of a welded non-porous tasteless PVC water chamber (inner bladder) inside a tough nylon envelope, for complete watertightness and resistance to tearing and abrasion.
Separate chambers allow the water tanks the flexibility to adapt their shape during heavy pitching, and to remain rigid enough not to burst under pressure.
The inner bladder is slightly oversized allowing pressure of water in tank to be exerted on the outter envelope not the inner bladder.
1 1/2 inlet and outlet fittings included. This model: capacity - 39.6 gal.

  I saw this tank on Dan's ' Psyche' Coumbia 8.7 and was impressed with the construction.  His installation is great (like all of the mods I saw on that boat!) ;D

I knew it would not fill to it's full capacity (it is too thick for the space full). I know I would be adding something like ~250# of water.... about like an extra large crew member sleeping in the starbord settee....  but would be removing the same weight that would have been carried slightly more aft in the cockpit lockers (not to mention the bottles of water that it will replace.

As it was I had an entire day spent in a marina to make the tank work... but it is in place now.

I went with the Plastimo 39gallon bladder I posted about above, and mounted it under the starboard settee.

The space has the natural 'bladder friendly' curve of the hull already except for the bottom edge where there could potentially be a crease.

I drilled 4 pair of holes in the setee to lash the corners to, but none of the lashings have any weight on them (unless the boat is pitching at some strange angle.)

I then drilled a 2.1/8" hole in the aft end of the bulkhead to pass the fill hose to, and a 7/8" for the 1/2" tap hose.

I installed a stainless deck fill in the vertical starboard side of the cockpit. I did not install it on the horizontal surface so it will neither be a lump to sit on, nor will it be as likely to collect salt water around the edge (minor detail I know...).

I ran the supply line to a diverter valve under the sink where I can draw the water from either the forward tank (18 gallon?) or the new 39 gallon tank (although It does not have the full 9" of vertical clearance across it's surface while in the locker so I doubt it is filling to the entire 39 gallons but I estimate it is between 32 and 35 gallons (guess).

I filled it till water ran out of the fill once it was installed and noticed a very slight list to starboard, less then I get when someone sits on only one side of the cockpit. I think it is acceptable, and I got my cockpit lockers back although we will keep 2 of the lage cans (empty) to carry water out to the boat in the dink when at anchor)

I will post more on this as it is used, but my initial impression is that it is going to work out well.  ;D

S/V Godot/CapnK.—

Do either of you have a good source for the 4 gallon blue containers that are in s/v Godot's post above.

(http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/05NDC/images/01232.jpg)

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 23, 2007, 10:41:58 PM
S/V Godot/CapnK.—

Do either of you have a good source for the 4 gallon blue containers that are in s/v Godot's post above.

(http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/05NDC/images/01232.jpg)

Dan,

  Found a couple of hits,Bass Pro Shop seems to be about the best price ($10.99) from a known source.... they have the 4 gal and the 7 gal. (http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_23633?cm_mmc=froogle-_-350-4-6-_--1-_-38-614-502-00&hvarAID=froogle&mr:trackingCode=7A43D433-6B68-DC11-84F2-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA)

  Google 'reliance aqua-tainer 4 gallon'  (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=%27reliance+aqua-tainer+4+gallon%27+&btnG=Search)for more options.

Thanks for the link... I'm ordering a couple today. :D

The tankage aboard Faith is working out very well.  Rose, Peter, and I do not use much water, so the 40 gal bladder, the factory tank (~12 gallons I am learning) and a back up 6.5 gallon jug are doing quite well for us. 

  All we drink comes from these tanks, I have my glass of wine in the evening but there is no other 'supplemental' sources like soda or juice (too heavy, and expensive).  Last time we topped off the tank we were surprised to learn that we had only used 12 gallons in 9 days. 

 

I am using about 2 gals a day with shore showers. You 2 have it dowm better than me but I am taking it easy.

Quote from: Lynx on December 29, 2007, 01:30:35 PM
I am using about 2 gals a day with shore showers. You 2 have it dowm better than me but I am taking it easy.

  Water was much cheaper and easier to come by in the abacos, I wish I could get a few gallons of RO water right now...

After having read several accounts of SBLD cruisers who used multiple small containers for their water supplies/tankage (like W. Chiles and S. Acton), I have started to think it might be a viable solution for myself and Katie. Ariels are pretty small boats, and since their fore/aft trim can be affected greatly by weight distribution of stores, being able to easily move chunks of weight around as stores get used would help keep the boat on her lines for seakeeping and speed during passages.

Years ago someone gave me as a gift for camping a plastic 2.5 gallon water bag that had an outer nylon bag (with webbing handles for easy carrying) covering it to protect against punctures. The bladder part had an opening of about 1.5" diameter, easy to fill and clean, with a 'spout' that worked just like the box wine spouts do. I used it on long distance kayak trips, and it worked great. I still have it, altho' some time back I replaced the inner bag with one made of Mylar which I 'liberated' from a box of wine.

Those Mylar bags are easily obtainable without having to resort to cheap-wine hangovers (and cheap, too - less than $5 for a 5 gallon size) since you can buy them from emergency preparedness websites, come in varying sizes, and seem like an excellent solution. It would be easy to carry extra deflated bags in case some wore out. Making nylon sheath bags (or perhaps better, fleece-lined nylon bags) would increase their durability, protecting against puncture and chafe.

I see chafe as being potentially the biggest problem; on a long passage, the constant movement of the boat could lead to holes being rubbed into the Mylar. Keeping the bladder inside of the sheath would help with that, and stowing the bags in a manner which allowed for little or no movement would help, too. Perhaps lining any waterbag compartment with foam, and filing extra space with partially-inflated bags, would take away "wiggle room" which would cause chafing. Having webbing handles would allow the bags to be easily transported to and from water sources.

Thoughts? Anyone tried this for their whole-boat water supply, or know of any SBLD'ers who are using these bladders in lieu of more 'traditional' tankage options?

You might try hanging them in a cloth hammock to reduce chafe.

I've been thinking about my options for water tankage on my E-27.So far my best solution is to remove the head and holding tank.I'm thinking that I can replace the holding tank with a 15-20 gal water tank in addition to the 12 gal tank already installed and use the head compartment as the sail locker.Still that only gives me
around 30+/- gal.Cruising the Sea of Cortez,I think 45-50 gal would be better.Maybe these bags could take up the slack.I'm sure I could find space for 3-4  5gal bags

Been trying to figure out how to carry more than a gallon of water on my boat. 5 gallon containers would take up to much room. What I thought was use a water tank like I have in my RV only a 20 gallon one instead of the 30.

My thought was to install it under the cockpit where I have plenty of dead space. Any thought and ideas on how I should go about this would be greatly appreciated.

(http://www.pocwebdesign.com/_RefFiles/tank.jpg)

Thanks
David

David,

  I went ahead and merged your post into this thread.  RV stuff is often good to look at when looking for good boat parts that don't cost what boat stuff costs.  Wonder if they have any tapered tanks?

  I think you will find quite a few ideas in "What to do about Water? tankage, requirements, watermakers.... etc."

Faith,
I had read through this thread. Hopefully my question will not get lost in the move.

David

David- I installed a platform under Tehani's cockpit and used a 19 gallon flex tank
you don't need a vent then- just a fill and an outlet

Also - for a water tank, you can build one from plywood/epoxy/glass custom fit to the space.

David, I have a bladder under the cockpit, you can see it behind the batteries;

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1205512590.jpg)

It is a fairly easy way to get water storage in a hard to get to place.

Thanks guys for the replies. I'll check out the flex tank. Due to the restrictions here I am not allowed to build anything.

David

Quote from: s/v Faith on May 12, 2008, 10:32:49 PM
David,

  I went ahead and merged your post into this thread.  RV stuff is often good to look at when looking for good boat parts that don't cost what boat stuff costs.  Wonder if they have any tapered tanks?

  I think you will find quite a few ideas in "What to do about Water? tankage, requirements, watermakers.... etc."

Check out Ronco plastics - no affilitation - all kinds of tanks

http://www.ronco-plastics.net/

Thanks Leroy for the link.

Interesting read.

Downside with flexible tanks is that they do not last forever, even tied down the material does of course flex and move because of the water - but if yer buy new then IME the water tastes a lot better than from a built in 30 year old tank! And from what I can gather 10 years is not unusual.

Tend to use the fixed tanks onboard for cooking, washing up and showering and have plastic containers for drinking water - Large soft drink type containers for ease of handling (IME trying to pour into a cup from a 2 Gallon container is not always easy on a boat!).

On Wayluya Seadog I have TWO built in tanks......they are the wing keels  8)...I think around 20/25 Gallons each (but don't quote me on that)....never heard of this arrangement before, but on a 30 footer very useful not having to find a home inside for the Water tankage.......downside is that after 38 years the water does not taste quite as cool and refreshing as it could do.......tank cleaning is on the Agenda at some point - their are drain bungs, just not sure what access (if any) I can gain from the top, nor whether the tanks / keels have baffles.....it's something else "on the to do list".



When / If I do head off on an extended trip into the WBY, I think I will add a flexible bladder both for additional "nice" drinking water....but also to have a seperate storage for water.

David,

In the keels, COOL!

Very nice to be able to carry that much fresh water! We have 2 tanks of about 20 gal each under our births in the aft cabin.

We normally shock the tanks about twice a year with bleach. I like to clean them any time I get the chance, but it's not that often.

One thing we did to make life better (living aboard full time) is to add a PUR water filter to the galley. We used the faucet mounted unit.
You can see the type at: http://www.purwater.com/#/faucets
Ours is an older model, but about the same. And at about US $35.00 to 40.00, it's a good deal. Have you seen the price for a Seagull "Marine" filter??? :(

We use about 1 filer every 3 to 4 months. We brought along 8 or 10 filters and will need to pick some more up the next time we visit the USA.

When I change the filter, I also soak the filer housing and it's parts in a bit of bleach for a couple of min. That keeps everything clean!!!

Greg

Greg- that's 40 gallons. Do you carry extra in smaller jugs? Either way, how does that amount work out, way out, such as when you guys have been  anchored down in the Sea Of Cortez.

With the 70 L ( 19 Gallon) tank I added under the cockpit, we carry 38 gallons internally, and roughly 10 more in 1 and 1/2 gallon jugs Laura uses to trim the boat.

We also use a filter- A friend gave us an all stainless one from a commercial airliner, along with a case of filters, Each filter is supposed to be good for 3000 gallons. So far, we've been changing once a year, because sadly, we've not been OUT enough to use 3000 gallons.

Quote from: Delezynski on May 13, 2008, 05:06:07 PM
One thing we did to make life better (living aboard full time) is to add a PUR water filter to the galley. We used the faucet mounted unit.
You can see the type at: http://www.purwater.com/#/faucets
Ours is an older model, but about the same. And at about US $35.00 to 40.00, it's a good deal.

Please don't put anything else on my list  :( :)

Something I had thought of - but will wait and see how the tank cleaning goes first.

CharlieJ,

A filter that works for 3000 gallons? That is a lot. I can see why you have not gone through a lot of them.

Our 40 gallons would NOT do for the Sea of Cortez unless we were VERY VERY careful! As a matter of fact, year before last was a drought and about ½ of the goats died in one area we like to visit. NO GOAT CHEESE for that year. Even the water in Puerto Escondido that came from the well that is normally GREAT tasting was brackish.

We have a Little Wonder water maker aboard. It saved the year for us. We would not have been able to stay out for months at a time like we do without it! But it does use the power! It is rated at 10 gallons an hour, but read the bit I wrote about water makers in our "Gear Report" for year before last (I think).

David,

SORRY!!!! :)
Hay, come on down here! We just helped a guy with a twin keeler haul out on his trailer yesterday. There is an open spot waiting for you here. ::)

Greg

Perhaps cheaper or easier for David is to simply use a filter pitcher, if his tanks are scuzzy. That's what I've been doing for a few years, and it knocks out that dock-hose taste and smell.

CapnK,

We tried  using the pitcher for a time. It worked fine at the dock, but not so well when we were underway.

I do agree that most of the filters work well. We have pressure water, so it was just easy to screw it on the galley and go. Our counter space is limited and one more thing in the sink was toooooo much for us.

Have you tried the product they call "Sweetwater"? I thought about it, but was unsure about drinking it on a regular basis.

Greg

That makes sense to me, Greg. :)

Sweetwater? Nope, don't know it. Googled it, found this:

(http://www.sweetwaterbrew.com/images/right_ipa.jpg)

Which I WOULD definitely try, and probably like just fine ;D, but I doubt that is what you were referring to...

Is 'Sweetwater' an additive/purifier of some sort?

CapnK,

Went to West Marine (the last place I saw some) and found  Aquabon Water Purifier, 8 OZ. It looks like about the same stuff. Here is a link to it:

http://tinyurl.com/5wu96m

Greg




(Edit: Made the link smaller)

Ah, OK, I see- thanks Greg, and a Grog. :)

Quote from: s/v Faith on December 28, 2005, 07:24:42 PM

Eric,

I read were many  'authoritative' sources recommend a gallon per day per person.  That can ba an awful lot of water!

  I have heard that adjusted down to half a gallon, (but would prefer not to adjust).  Little things like rinsing my face, and other 'extravagant' uses of water don't seem like too much to ask.   ;)

  I was sailing yesterday, and looked down, and came up with another idea.... my cockpit drains have sea cocks on them that could be closed under the right conditions to allow a few inches of water to accumulate in the cocpit for rinsing clothes.  If your cockpit drains were not connecte4d to seacocks (many are not) you might be able to use those simple flat rubber drain covers that some people use in bathtubs to accomplish the same purpose.

I know this was posted quite awhile ago . . . but . . .

Is this water for other than consumption? Then it may be OK! However . . .

We should drink about .5 oz of water per day per pound of body weight. Here is a cool calculator http://www.csgnetwork.com/humanh2owater.html (http://www.csgnetwork.com/humanh2owater.html) If you drink coffee . . . you will need to drink TWICE as much water just to stay even, as coffee "uses" your "on-board" water, and cause you to "P" more!

Shawn

how much does water makers way?? I thought you can get some that are pretty small

A PUR watermaker 40E weighs about 25 lbs.

Personally, I don't mind the weight or the power consumption of a water maker. Consider, that some decent water makers, can make, what, (lets be on the VERY conservative side) 5 gallons an hour. Around 1.5 watts per hour (or 17 amps per hour).

Figure most of us average around 60 gallons? Basically, it would take half a day, and about half a charge on any decent deep cycle batter to top off?

Obviously, this isn't perfect math, just continuing the conversation. Between wind/solar, there is no reason we couldn't use a solution like this on our boats. Most of us have the mentality of water conservation, so its not like we would be using this on a daily basis.

Altho, it does open the argument of "Since I have a water maker on board, I might as well take that 2 hour shower!".  ;D

Just have to avoid that mentality. I guess what im saying, is that, as like our computer thread, as technology gets better. The units get smaller and more effecient.

Used http://www.spectrawatermakers.com/ (http://www.spectrawatermakers.com/) as my source for the numbers above. Looking at the Ventura 150.

I'd offer that independent of cost, the appropriate metric for a watermaker is energy per unit product (Ah/gal or Wh/gal).

I have begun compiling a spreadsheet that captures the relevant information. I'm still experimenting with metrics that incorporate capital and maintenance costs.

The peak efficiency around 1.2 Ah/gal seems to come at the 300 - 400 gpd range. You pay for that -- 1.4 Ah/gal is about 30% cheaper and 2.2 Ah/gal saves half of original purchase price. I did include flushing in the calculations but made some other assumptions that may differ for you. The assumptions are documented in the spreadsheet so you could tune the analysis to your particular scenario.

I am happy to share my spreadsheet with anyone interested and only ask that if you add data you share it with me so I can keep the total up to date.

Nowell-

You might want to try re-reading the specs for that watermaker:

POWER REQUIREMENTS
Pump Horsepower    1/8    
Amp/Hr per Gallon (12 VDC)    1.4    
Watt/Hr per Gallon    17    
Current Draw (12 VDC)    9 Amps

Your numbers are WAY OFF BASE. 

You might also consider how much space the Ventura 150 takes up.  The main unit is about 2.5' x 1' x 1'.   The water pre-filter is basically .5' x .5' x 1', and the feed pump is .5' x .5' x 1' as well. 

I'd rather get the lower capacity Pur/Katadyn PowerSurvivor 40E.  It is about a 25% of the capacity, but has enough capacity to handle two people rather easily—two hours giving 3 gallons or so—and can be manually powered in an emergency.

You also have to consider how often you would run the watermaker, since they really need to be run about every few days or you have to pickle the membrane.  How long does it take you to go through 60 Gallons of fresh water?? If it takes you two weeks to do so...which is about four gallons per day.  If you ran the PS40E just three hours a day, you'd keep up with your usage and only be using 12 amp-hours per day.   Conversely, you could manually operate it and use no electricity whatsoever. :)

Thanks for clearing that up  ;D

I don't have a water maker, just 80 gallons of storage in two custom stainless steel tanks forward, but I do remember an article in Cruising World, I believe, a few years ago about making your own water maker using PVC tubing and filters and other components you can purchase separately.  If memory serves, not only did it out perform all of the ready made units it didn't draw much power and could be custom made to fit in out of the way places because it was not in a box but could have components located in various places around the boat.  I'll try a search on the CW website and see what I can find.

No charge... anytime... :)

Quote from: nowell on December 08, 2008, 11:50:33 AM
Thanks for clearing that up  ;D

Quote from: Auspicious on December 08, 2008, 11:20:27 AM
I'd offer that independent of cost, the appropriate metric for a watermaker is energy per unit product (Ah/gal or Wh/gal).

I have begun compiling a spreadsheet that captures the relevant information. I'm still experimenting with metrics that incorporate capital and maintenance costs.

The peak efficiency around 1.2 Ah/gal seems to come at the 300 - 400 gpd range. You pay for that -- 1.4 Ah/gal is about 30% cheaper and 2.2 Ah/gal saves half of original purchase price. I did include flushing in the calculations but made some other assumptions that may differ for you. The assumptions are documented in the spreadsheet so you could tune the analysis to your particular scenario.

I am happy to share my spreadsheet with anyone interested and only ask that if you add data you share it with me so I can keep the total up to date.

Please include things like noise, heat and vibration caused by a watermaker, if those can be properly quantified.

I left out the part where looking at the data keeps convincing me that I really don't want a watermaker. <grin>

Quote from: Auspicious on December 08, 2008, 06:21:25 PM
I left out the part where looking at the data keeps convincing me that I really don't want a watermaker. <grin>

  Like I posted earlier in this thread, I actually went through BUYING one before I decided I had no interest in having one aboard.

I think there is a greater cost then the dent in the energy budget, the weight, the space, and even the cost.  I believe that the greatest liability is the added stress and complication that a watermaker brings. 

  Not dozens, but hundreds of reports of people altering their trips and spending much time and money working on, trying to find people to work on, and chasing expensive parts for watermakers.  If I were going to spend a year in the Gulf of California I might think about it.... not for the tropics or most of the areas that I want to cruise in.

  Just some more grist for the mill.

All of the above drawbacks, and the one not mentioned - PRICE -(watermakers are hugely expensive, as are the parts - when you can get them, especially "out there"...) - are the reason I find this idea (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2048.0) so interesting...

It just makes sense that it would be easier (and therefore use less energy and be more efficient) to get fresh water out of the air, than to create it from saltwater. No filters/membranes/pumps/pickling needed, just make some condensation, and catch it...

If you look at the space a watermaker would take up and consider putting in some more water tankage of the same volume the watermaker starts to look even less sensible.

On the other hand, I know one fellow who has to accommodate a long-haired wife who washes her hair every day. If a watermaker is what it takes to go sailing then fine, but a think a couple of hundred gallons of water tankage would go a very long way.

Then again, if you look at it from a weight standpoint, a watermaker makes a lot of sense for weight sensitive vessels, like multihulls. 

A Katadyn/Pur PowerSurvivor 40E weighs 40 lbs. with all the accessories, spare filters, supplies and such.  That's only about the weight of five gallons of water.  Assuming you can power it via renewable energy, say solar or wind, then it becomes a huge weight savings over the long run.  100 gallons of water is a bit over 800 lbs., and takes up 13.4 cubic feet. 

For a multihull, especially a trimaran, a watermaker might make a lot more sense than additional tankage, provided enough water is stowed to provide supplies in case of a watermaker failure.  This is due to both the stowage requirements of a large quantity of water and the weight requirements... since trimarans tend to have less stowage available than do catamarans, and all multihulls are fairly weight sensitive.

How do you guys factor in costs in areas where you have to buy water, or where you are taking a chance on drinking water? Some cruising areas might even have to import potable water themselves, so your now paying a premium?

What is the cost vs changing your cruising area/plans? While mostly a rhetorical question, I guess thats when you start factoring in what a water maker means to you personally.

Quote from: nowell on December 09, 2008, 12:11:16 PM
How do you guys factor in costs in areas where you have to buy water

I just consider that a part of the cost of cruising. You simply plan for it as part of your budget. Along with other fees, such as entry fees ( like $150 for our size boats for the Bahamas) mooring fees where you must moor, etc.

If they have to import it, then you must be prepared to pay the piper so to speak. For another example, ALL water in the Keys is either piped in via that one big pipeline, or rain caught. So you COULD be charged even stateside.

Not a big deal really.

Oh, and you would use filters if the water was questionable- or not fill there. ALWAYS a good idea to sample the water anywhere before you fill tanks. I used to make it a practice to NEVER fill every tank from a single source all at once. Fill one, then if that's ok, THEN fill the rest, maybe a day later.

Maybe im just paranoid from my time in the service, where even a mouthful from a "supposed" clean source in triple canopy had more living organisms than some small countries.

Most of the questions I pose are purely to keep the conversation going as alot of people have not really had to deal with bad water, or the outcomes of drinking said water.

Granted, I hate looking at the water tables for city supplies, some of the poop they put in is absolutely sick. I just love playing devils advocate, and I think its spawning great conversation!

I emailed the Clorox people about treating water onboard and this is their reply regarding drinking water.

To purify the water for drinking, we recommend using 1/4 teaspoon of Clorox Liquid Bleach to one gallon of water, let sit for 30 minutes.  After this time there should be a slight chlorine odor to the water.  If the slight chlorine odor is not present, repeat the dosage and wait 15 more minutes.

How much does water cost?  It would have to be quite a bit to make a water maker *cost* effective.

Figuring a PowerSurvivor 40E could probably be procured for around $3000 or so...

If you where someplace where water costs as much as $1.50 a gallon (I think I read somewhere that the going rate is around one dollar a gallon), you could purchase 2000 gallons of water before hitting the break even point.  That's not even counting the cost of spares and repairs on the watermaker, and the costs of generating the energy to run it.  That's a lot of water for most of us.  With just a little care, it should still be possible to get it for far less than that in most places.

There are certainly plenty of valid reasons for installing a watermaker (distance from a water source, small tanks, weight sensitivity, addiction to long showers for those with big enough boats, a desire to increase independence, etc...).  For the vast majority of us, though, saving money is probably not one of them.

As far as little creepy crawlies in the drinking water ... it seems to me that the prudent thing to do is add some bleach to any remotely questionable source to kill the bugs, and then add a filter to improve the taste (and remove any mutants that survived the chemical warfare attack).  This is one of the reasons why, should I build my next boat, I am planning on figuring a system of using a bunch of small jerry jugs instead of large main tanks.  It should help isolate contamination.

Of course, the assumption that water is available to purchase is not necessarily a valid one.  If you're making a trans-oceanic passage, finding a local store to buy bottled water at isn't going to happen. :) If you're coastal cruising, a watermaker doesn't make as much sense, since in many coastal waters, you can't effectively use the watermaker in any case.  Bacteria-contaminated water or polluted water will prevent you from using it, and that describes most harbors today.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 09, 2008, 02:12:26 PM
in many coastal waters, you can't effectively use the watermaker in any case.  Bacteria-contaminated water or polluted water will prevent you from using it, and that describes most harbors today.

My Marina is right next to the Dow Chemical plant. I heard, at a time most of the pollutants dumped in the US were right around my marina. Its still a nice shade of green with some things growing that I think haven't even been classified as life forms yet.

Anyway, sidebar, back to our regularly scheduled program!

Quote from: Joe Pyrat on December 09, 2008, 01:19:34 PM
I emailed the Clorox people about treating water onboard and this is their reply regarding drinking water.

To purify the water for drinking, we recommend using 1/4 teaspoon of Clorox Liquid Bleach to one gallon of water, let sit for 30 minutes.  After this time there should be a slight chlorine odor to the water.  If the slight chlorine odor is not present, repeat the dosage and wait 15 more minutes.

There are some very real risks associated with using chlorine as your water treatment, I would suggest reading up a little more on it. Here is just one straight forward assessment out of Canada Health.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/chlor-eng.php

Interesting, but did you not this line from the referenced page?

QuoteCurrent scientific data shows that the benefits of chlorinating our drinking water (less disease) are much greater than any health risks from THMs* and other by-products.

It also appears that an activated carbon filters can be used to remove chlorine and its by-products, so it would appear the ideal solution is to chlorinate your water, then run it through an activated carbon filter between the tank and your glass if you are drinking your stored water.  Adding chlorine to your water tank also keeps your entire water system free of those little beasties that like to grow in there and make your water smell bad.

Additionally, one thing I've observed at a number of marinas on the Chesapeake is a system of those water filters you can buy at Home Depot or Lowe's rigged up so you can attach them between the water source and your tank.  In most cases the filters attached to the marina's faucet with the hose attached to the out flow side.  This system would reduce the organic material present in water which contributes to the formation of THMs when the water is chlorinated.  If followed up with a second filter between the tank and the glass it would seem your water would be as good as it is likely to get.

* Chlorine reacts with the organic matter, naturally present in water, such as decaying leaves. This chemical reaction forms a group of chemicals known as disinfection by-products. The most common of these by-products are trihalomethanes (THMs), which include chloroform. The amount of THMs found in drinking water depends on a number of things, including the season and the source of the water. For example, THM levels are generally lower in winter than in summer, because the amount of natural organic matter is lower and less chlorine is needed to disinfect at colder temperatures. THM levels are also low when wells or large lakes are the drinking water source, and higher when rivers or other surface waters are the source, because they generally contain more organic matter

Yes Joe I did see your referenced quote. ;) My reason for posting the link was to show that there are a number of considerations when using chlorine as a treatment particularly when there is a greater possibility of organic matter in the water.

Chlorination has been the mainstay of water treatment for many years, but it has to be done correctly, I am just not sure I would go on the recommendation of an email from the Clorox company. :)

And yes I have been certified as a small water system treatment operator.

Interesting notes. A local fellow that taught power sqaudron took a year off to sail south. He bought EVERYTHING that he thought they needed.In the end he spent way to much and had way too much 'stuff' onboard...including a watermaker. I have to agree that "IF" you are planning  long offshore passages one may be worth considering with the extra lbs carried and possibility of contamination after extended periods with water in a large tank. I'll leave you's with this. We found that on our 1st cruise south we had way too much 'stuff' as well.Several items never got used....they only took up space and got in the way...not to mention dollars spent.We found that many fears were unfounded and supplies were generally easier to get than expected, plus a sunshade easily converts to a huge funnel to fill tanks with rain.I always go back to 'get the biggest anchor ya can handle and the rest falls into place' ;D Would be interested to hear CJ's and Lynx's ...or anyone eles opinion thats spent months at a time cruising on buying too much stuff...or how simple it really could be to spend time away.I'm sure watermakers have a place...but the KISS thing will work 99% of the time for most of what the majority of us will do.Good informative discussion.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 09, 2008, 02:12:26 PMIf you're making a trans-oceanic passage, finding a local store to buy bottled water at isn't going to happen. :)

True as far as it goes. Crossing the Atlantic with 120 gallons of water in tanks and about 10 gallons in jugs we (4 or 5 aboard) never really were at risk of running out of water.

Cleaning up with baby wipes on passage -- even long passages -- and washing dishes with sea water were likely the two biggest water saving measures.

I just can't talk myself into a watermaker.

Quote from: Frank on December 10, 2008, 01:11:56 PM...or anyone eles opinion thats spent months at a time cruising on buying too much stuff...or how simple it really could be to spend time away.I'm sure watermakers have a place...

FWIW,

Could not agree more Frank.

  After 8 months of cruising we had food aboard that we had bought in NC before we left.

Not only did I not regret passing the water maker along to someone else (well, maybe I regret the money) but I was glad I did not have one.  I believe that unless you NEED one they are not worth the considerable trouble they bring onboard.... 

We also bought way more than needed. Hey- people who LIVE in a place have to eat and wash dishes. Might not be  the food you are used to , but if that stops you, best stay home. That's part of the fun- finding new stuff.

I haven't made a LONG ocean passage, and I understand that's different. But for coastal cruising, what you really need is available every where people live. Might cost a bit more, but if you try the local stuff, it might also surprise you.

Of course, Tehani is a small boat, so we simply cannot overstock- she'd be so full we couldn't move around ;D

Your cruising area will dictate if you need/want a watermaker. Ocean Voyaging where clean ocean water is around you can get by with it. dirty coastal waters and harbors will clog filters quite often and you will need a lot. Survey a cruising area to see what people are doing on the smaller boats.

Too much stuff - Stocking up to much for a cruise is hard on a small boat. There is a British book called "Cruising on a Budget" that I agree with most of except buying all used. New is best if you can do it or be prepaired to do without.

Anyplace where there is people you will find water. At all docks I see fresh water filters. Never used one myself. Just put bleach in and waited for a day or 2. Stored what I needed until then. I always use a white water hose, usually mine. You can always boil your water to clean. My tank has fouled 2x and I had to heavy bleach and flush. You can buy the 5 gal jugs for less than $ 7 and give away when you no longer need them.  Please note that anything stored on decks during a storm underway may be lost.

Learning to use less than 1 gal a day is hard/fun. I have 15 gal's fresh water supply. About 2 weeks for 1 if careful in the Bahamas. Bahamas water was $ 0.25 per gal and in Marathon City Marina, Filtered is $ 0.05 per gal,

If I was going to cross Oceans I would want at least 2 gal's per day tankage in at least 2 tanks or a watermaker.

Being a bum in the Fl Keys for the winter, James "LYNX"

In coastal cruising I think the money would be better spent on a fridge,  A/C and small generator and fuel to burn.

Tim, your statement that there are "very real risks" associated with chlorination seemed a bit over the top to me.  Researching methods of eliminating Algae growth in my onboard potable water system lead me to a number of studies on the benefits as well as the issues with adding chlorine to water as a disinfectant.  One study states there is more of a health risk associated with eating a peanut butter sandwich than  drinking a glass of chlorinated water.  True, there are some health concerns but as I stated, the use of a filter at the tap can reduce these significantly and you still reap the benefits of chlorination.  For example, the Aquasana AQ-4000 filter system claims a 99% removal of chlorine and a 99% removal of THMs, so there is a solution which does not prevent you from reaping the benefits of chlorination.  If you are in possession of a study which indicates the risks are greater then they seem to be based on my research, please provide me a link to it.

As to Clorox's suggested procedure, reports I've read from several states regarding in-home water purification suggest similar ratios.

Interesting reading. For those thinking about many smallish containers, Reliance has several interesting options.

http://relianceproducts.com/products/hydration.html?page=1

Great link for water carrying containers.

Assuming a daily ambient temperature in the mid/high 80's(F), and the usual workload associated with sailing a simple 25' boat, how much water per person, per day should I carry? Also assume that dishes will be washed with salt water, and meals will require very little water to cook.

This is to help me plan for a trip around the Delmarva peninsula. I know that I'll have access to water but I still want to have an idea of how fast I will consume the water and when I'll need to replenish.

A gallon/person/day is luxury and should cover drinking, cooking, rinse after raw water bath.  After washing dishes in raw water, dip in fresh rinse with a small amount of chlorox.  Half that amount is sufficient for consumption and cooking, since what you cook you consume anyhow.  Other beverages you carry (soda, beer) help to extend available water supplies.  Carry Crystal Light or similar non-sugar mixes to make water more enjoyable.  If water supplies run low, eliminate coffee and caffeine drinks, since they are diuretic, and remove water from the body.  Most people know that, but thought I'd mention it anyhow.  If you're concerned about access to water, split your water supply between different containers (vessel's tank and jerry jugs), so if one is punctured or otherwise ruined, you still have a viable supply, and also gives you a removable water supply if you ever have to abandon ship.  We used the g/p/d rule for all ocean passages, and always had water left over.  Hope this helps.
Jim

Also, any chance to catch rain water could be taken advantage of.  For some reason, a lot of folks overlook this.  Maybe you can't COUNT on it, if you do get rain, that's free water for the taking.

Do you use ice for cooling?  If so, is there a way to recover the melt water?  For example, we use ice in the ice box in plastic containers.  The resulting melt can be saved for washing or (after filtering) drinking if need be (only hesitant here because we don't fully trust our source of ice for full time consumption).  Freezing  small bottles of water to use to fill the empty spaces in the ice box serves double duty (more cooling + that little extra bit of water).

Small bottles of drinking water can be stowed in a surprising number of places that you likely would not be putting much of anything else.  Every little bit helps if you think you are on the bubble for having enough.

One thing that really struck me from reading history about the Great Age of Sail is that the old guys only rarely and in exceptional circumstances gave up a chance to take on fresh water.  It seemed almost like a superstition, but a practical one.

One other thing I might mention.  You didn?t indicate how your vessel is equipped or if you are sailing with crew.  The hardest thing of sailing with people who aren?t used to living aboard is ALWAYS the subjects of water and electrical conservation.  People are just too used to letting the water run and leaving lights on all over the place.  A discussion of the realities of life aboard should be included in your crew orientation along with where the PFD?s, seacocks, extinguishers, etc. are located.  Before we went to sea, we always disconnected the pressure water system and all unessential circuits.  People are much more conscious of how much water they?re using if they need to pump it by hand or foot.  In the Chesapeake, you?re never more than a daysail from a water supply.  If you run non-stop outside, the easiest to reach supplies would be Lewes, DE and Chesapeake City in the Canal.  Have a great trip.

I'll be alone or with one other person at most. I may even have "rotating" crew since I can pull into so many places.

I agree, getting others to comply with rationing can be difficult. It isn't hard for me though. I was on submarines where the first rule of water consumption was: "The reactor needs it more than you do".

I have a Coronado 25 which has a 13-15 gallon tank under the V-berth. I like the idea of many small water bottles squirreled away to make use of otherwise wasted space. I'll also probably do a couple of collapsible water bags. And rainwater of course.

Thanks for the advice.

I am sorry, I neglected to mention that I merged your question into a thread with lots of info on this topic.  You might find some more input by going back and reading from the beginning.

  Water can be like gold when cruising.  When your tanks are full you feel rich and ready... Rose and I were thankful to be satisfied with very low water use...

  Good topic to ponder at length.   :)

Quote from: Old Shoe on April 19, 2010, 12:29:33 PM
I'll be alone or with one other person at most. I may even have "rotating" crew since I can pull into so many places.

I agree, getting others to comply with rationing can be difficult. It isn't hard for me though. I was on submarines where the first rule of water consumption was: "The reactor needs it more than you do".

I have a Coronado 25 which has a 13-15 gallon tank under the V-berth. I like the idea of many small water bottles squirreled away to make use of otherwise wasted space. I'll also probably do a couple of collapsible water bags. And rainwater of course.

Thanks for the advice.

Just to add something to the earlier part of this thread. The Guy who owns the 30 footer i would like to buy had a built in tank in the bow . he was not happy with the quality of the water sot he cut the top out of the tank and got a Turtle Pac custom made to fit the space. this has been in place for 5 odd years and he is extremely happy with it. One other thing he told me is that Turtle pac made 3 tanks before they were happy with the fit in the space. He only paid for one.

That's handy information. Thanks.

Squirreling away bottled water is a decent idea, but the empty bottles should be squirreled away as well until you reach some destination where you are capable of recycling said bottles. 

My current philosophy is to try to eliminate as much waste/trash/recyclables before I leave.  I will likely use some jerry jugs or collapsible tanks to augment my water tank.


Todd

Are you kidding?  :)  I'd never throw my water bottles overboard, or anything else for that matter. And, since the whole Ches. Bay is soon to be a total NDZ, the only place I'll empty my head is during the Atlantic leg if I'm far enough out.

Just to add to this thread a little. I am new here and used to be in water treatment. It is not that hard to make an RO that would work. I am not by the ocean so it will be hard for me to test it other than trying to make some sea water. RO's have come a long way and you do not need all that much pressure. One of the 12 vlt pump should work just fine. Total cost should be less than $300.00 including pump. Add a UV unit for a little more.

Dan

Welcome to sailFar Dan :) I think it would be very interesting topic, your knowledge about making a small & simple 12V RO watermaker. I am clueless about them, pretty much, other than a general knowledge of how they work, so feel free to share - if it is not too complicated, I *am* near the ocean, and would give it a try. :)

Would you necessarily have to use an electric pump, or could you use pressure developed by a hand pump, say for instance like the pump on those garden sprayers?

Well color me VERY interested on where you can pick up the components for a watermaker for around $300. I've been pricing out the various bits and I can't seem to get the overall price below $1200.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

Do point us in the right direction...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

I have no idea what a decent pressure rated 12V pump draws but it probably falls outside my energy budget.  I do know that R.O. membranes are far more efficient as the supplied water pressure approaches 100PSI.  So I dont think a simple (or should I say readily available) hand pump will do the trick.  Even your low GPD membranes still like high pressure for efficiency. 

I used to want a watermaker on board.  Now I think they would be a maintenance hog for a small boat.  I work with several everyday and have built all but our first one.  They are simple in design and construction.  At work, here, they get used a lot and that affords us the opportunity to keep the membranes flushed and we switch out the 0.5 micron carbon blocks as needed to prevent chemical degradation.  On a boat, I think keeping the unit flushed, keeping the prefilter from clogging and preventing biological degradation of the membrane just makes them more work than they are worth.

Having said that, a hand pump unit might be a life saver in a ditch kit.

1) What is "GPD"?

2) "Biological degradation" - sounds like you mean "stuff in the water growing on/clogging up" the membrane? Do you just wipe that off, or flip the membrane and use pressure to get rid of it? How hard is it to do?

3) Is the process of desalination somewhat like charging a battery to 100%? Where the first 80-90% of the process is relatively quick and easy to complete, but getting that last 10% of salt out is a good 50%+ of the effort? (Told you I was clueless. ;D )

OK, the thought occurs - I should do some research/reading - 'cause I am asking the noob questions that people in the know hate to hear over and over... :)

Here is a link to a very simple and basic DIY watermaker...

http://www.westward-ii.com/PDF%27s/D%20I%20Y%20Watermaker.pdf

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

..and here's a $200 (!!!) water-making beach ball...

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/memss.html?

I know that if you are floating in a life raft, thirsty and have no water to drink, that you would burn $1000 bills for a cuppa fresh water.

But do they really have to charge $200 for this $0.35 plastic thing? Ridiculous.

Here's something that begs for a reverse-engineered, KISS, Creative Commons solution for the masses...

That does seem a little high for a 'beach ball'!!!  Scale of economy hard at work there.  I gotta think a distiller would be one of the first things I set to work after immediate medical attention once adrift.

GPD is gallons per day.  Under lab. conditions your typical 25gpd membrane will give you about 20 gallons of good 'product' water and 100 gallons of waste/reject water.  That is why we run recapturing loops and extra membranes here, but, I still loath the waste. Granted, on a boat the waste merely returns to the sea.
Product water is an actual yeild vs. theoretical yeild.  Variables that influence product output of a membrane are temperature, pressure and disolved solids in the input water.  The last of these would be a concern.

Biological degradation is 'cooties' growing on the membrane and  in the membrane housing that actually breakdown and compromise the intergrety of the Thin Film Composite membrane that does the 'separating' against the concentration gradient.

You can't backflush a membrane like yu can some types of filters.  'Flushing' an R.O. membrane is really rinsing off the outside of the membrane in situ on a regular intervals.

Again, it's not that I don't think they work, it's just gravitating away from K.I.S.S. principles.

Quote from: LooseMoose on July 06, 2010, 11:37:48 AM
Here is a link to a very simple and basic DIY watermaker...

http://www.westward-ii.com/PDF%27s/D%20I%20Y%20Watermaker.pdf

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

That is way to much stuff. most if not all is not needed. you need a simple 12vt pump, membrane housing, prefilter and some kind of germ treatment, (UV, Ozone, Chlorine, Or just boil it. I will work on this today and see what I come up with. As with anything sold over the counter they have to many goodies attached. As far as a hand pump every thing helps create pressure. If you pump up a tank with water and air you have a certain amount of PSI. Put a pump after that and it adds to the total. Put two pumps inline and you now have twice the PSI. Put a pump on your engine and you can get plenty of PSI and charge the battery to boot. Also the more flow you run to drain the cleaner the membrane will stay but the more water you will use. A membrane works on high side pressure vs low side pressure. The pure water will migrate to the low side by osmosis. If you totally plug up the drain you will just have a big filter and it will plug up rather quickly. More water running across the membrane keeps the contaminates flowing to drain.

Dan

Dan... My bad I thought you were talking about a watermaker  for $300 as opposed to a water filter system in which case $300 is something like over kill as the Sawyer (http://www.sawyer.com/products.htm) provides all the filtering anyone would would need fr between $50-$130 off the shelf ( and good for a million gallons!)

The DIY system I linked to is a watermaker capable of turning seawater into freshwater and while it can be simplified a bit you still have to deal with a high pressure pump, some means to drive it and a membrane in a pressure vessel.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

Bob I was, but I did run into a snag. It could have been a misprint in my catalog. I had seen a 1.8" membrane listed now I cannot find it. Doing an online search the smallest I found was 2.5"x 14" membrane alone is $168.00. A pressure vessel is $200.00 something. But this is a 150 gpd RO. You need 300 psi which is not hard to do with a RO booster pump. I am still going to keep looking. The big RO's they are quoting are for lots of water and we only need gallons per day. I still have plenty of contacts in the industry so I may get some answers. Housings are not that hard to make. I will only need a valve on the drain to regulate pressure.

Dan

How do you store water aboard?  Do you have permanently mounted tanks? bladders?

How much tankage is enough for staying aboard for longer periods?

Do you use water jugs?  What size?

How do you fill the tanks or jugs?

Aboard Tehani we have two tanks, both bladders. 27 gallons under the cockpit and about 17 or 18 up forward for a total of 35 gallons. Laura also stows 1 and 1/2 gallon jugs in various places around the boat, depending on where we need trim ballast.

When we head out to prmitive anchorages, we carry an extra 5'or 10 gallons in folding jugs storeroom the cockpit seats against the cabin. Nothing on deck-ever.

We figure we can stay away from civilization for about a month with no particular extreme water saving measures.

We carry 4 foldable 5 gallon jugs for refilling tanks when we carry water in the dinghy.

As a matter of practice, we try to refill when the after tank is empty when we can.

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 06, 2011, 05:04:50 PM
Aboard Tehani we have two tanks, both bladders. 27 gallons under the cockpit and about 17 or 18 up forward for a total of 35 gallons. Laura also stows 1 and 1/2 gallon jugs in various places around the boat, depending on where we need trim ballast.

Mariah carries  about the same in bladders, but I have maintained the raw water thru hull for rinsing, washing etc.  Since  she will most likely only be seeing coastal cruising, this seems adequate.

Back when I was planning on building a boat, I thought it would be a good idea to just keep a five gallon (or whatever was appropriate) jerry jug plummed straight to the sink, with spares kept in storage.  Coincidentally, Loose Moose just had a blog post describing the exact same system (http://boatbits.blogspot.com/2011/02/simple-water-system.html).  Godot currently has a twenty gallon tank under the v-berth.  I think the jerry jug system is better.

I have never heard anyone say they had too much water capacity.

The jug system would be fine IF you have the space to store 4 or 5 five gallon jugs. But then, why not just have a fixed tank in that space? Save the trouble.

Also on Tehani we try to keep that bow tank full because the boat sails better that way. I wouldn't do away with yours til I found out about how it balances with it empty.

My water system is in place and functional, so I'm certainly not changing it.  The boat sails fine with full or empty tanks (I don't even notice the difference), although I've often thought she seems designed to have the extra weight of an inboard engine aft; which is where the jugs would be stored.  I have no objection to the normal tank method; but it seems that it really is designed to make living on boats (even if just for an afternoon) more like being in a house than any other reason.  Which is not a bad thing; it's just something that doesn't enter my decision process.  If I was building my next boat as originally planned, I believe I'd do the jug thing; although I'm a fickle creature so it is hard to tell.

Some of the advantages to the jug method is the elimination of plumbing, shear simplicity, the ability to change tankage by mission, the possibility of moving the jugs to balance the boat, the protection against contamination and loss by having multiple self contained water vessels, the forced awareness of water usage, easy replacement when damaged, convenient to grab if it becomes necessary to abandon ship (I'm naturally assuming we aren't in the middle of Chesapeake Bay in this scenario  :)), and, if the normal method of filling the tanks happens to be by jugs, because it saves effort transferring.  It appeals to me, although likely I'm not typical.  On my Weekender I used to have a pair of 3 gallon water jugs that did me just fine.

In skylarks case, I'm guessing we are talking about keeping water on the 16' foot junk he is building, which pretty much changes the rules from the boats most of us have.

Oh, for what it's worth, as a single hander, not really worrying too much about water usage, I had probably a third tank (6 or 7 gallons I guess) of water at the end of my last ten day trip.  But it was in September, not the middle of an oppressive Maryland summer.

Quote from: Auspicious on February 07, 2011, 12:40:45 PM
I have never heard anyone say they had too much water capacity.

I have.  But, we were talking very small boats (sub 20 feet).

I went ahead and merged this into an existing thread on water stowage.

Lots of good info in the thread on various approaches to the issue, worth a read from the beginning.  ;)

FWIW,

  Faith carries 15 gallons forward in one (OEM, Monel) tank, 19 gallons (40l) under the port settee in a Plastimo bladder, and another 12-18 gallons in the stbd cockpit locker when needed.   System works out well for us, and allows appropriate segregation to prevent contamination....

My point of reference is my Tanzer 28, right now I have about 5 three gallon jugs, and would like to get set up for a month or more.  My need for water needs to be tempered by the fact that I sail on Lake Michigan, which is the source of drinking water for our town.  I have a backpacking water filter and can filter Lake water for drinking water. 

It sounds like 40 gallons in two seperate bladders would be a good amount as a goal.  I have an old Whale foot pump but it seems to be past the point of rebuilding.

Do bladders require a vent?

What type of tubing do you use?

No, bladders do not require vents.

We usethe plastic hose Qin them cross-crossed threads inside. Works well.

Sometimes it is a tight fit but putting the end in hot water will soften it so it'll slip on.

My Chrysler didn't have anything in the way of a fresh water system when I bought her. I went on the internet and purchased a 16 Gallon RV type tank from a surplus outfit in Elkhart, IN where they built a lot of campers and motorhomes. It was forty dollars with shipping, they had several sizes to choose from. I installed it under the port cockpit locker as far forward as I could and plumbed it with a 12 volt RV demand pump and plastic pipe to the galley sink. I also put my generator and marine batteries on the opposite side to counter the weight. I think my total investment in the water system is less than $150. I also plan to carry several plastic jugs for backup.

Larry

Quote from: excavman on February 11, 2011, 11:11:06 AM
My Chrysler didn't have anything in the way of a fresh water system when I bought her. I went on the internet and purchased a 16 Gallon RV type tank from a surplus outfit in Elkhart, IN where they built a lot of campers and motorhomes. It was forty dollars with shipping, they had several sizes to choose from. I installed it under the port cockpit locker as far forward as I could and plumbed it with a 12 volt RV demand pump and plastic pipe to the galley sink. I also put my generator and marine batteries on the opposite side to counter the weight. I think my total investment in the water system is less than $150. I also plan to carry several plastic jugs for backup.

Larry

Larry,

  Sounds like a very good system for your boat.  I recall just how weight sensitive your boat can be.  (I briefly had a C-22, you may have seen my posts on the C-22 forum).   16 gallons is probably about right for the trip you propose,
the southern Tenn-Tom (from what I have researched) can preclude access to replenish supplies for as long as a week at a time.  I know from my own experience that your water can last 2 weeks (especially as supplemented with canned / bottled beverages).

  What was the tank you purchased made of?  Food grade plastic is good stuff, make sure you don't let the water sit long enough to get 'stale' as it may be tough to get a stale taste out of it later.

  How much stowage did you loose with this tank?  IIRC, most of the sizable stowage space (dry) on your boat is under the 'v' berth.

  Glad you are here, and I greatly look forward to hearing all about your trip.  ;D

The tank is made of the same white plastic as my RV fresh water tank but I wasn't planning on drinking out of it, use it for washing body parts and dished. I have a good spot where I can carry six gallon jugs of drinking water right behind my 50qt. cooler/ice box behind the companionway steps. The tank is only about 30 in long 15 high and 12 wide. I set it low in the hull right up against the side of the cockpit floor. My boat has that heavy fixed wing keel so it won't be as sensitive to lateral loading changes as a swing keel boat. I also may put a couple of those collapsible 5 gallon jugs under the v-berth.

Larry

I bet she is a good Sailor.  People underestimate those boats (maybe thinking Chrysler was not well suited to make sailboats).  I always liked them and bet the fixed keel is a nice boat to sail.

Just out of curiosity, why do not not intend to drink from the main tank?  I know many feel this way, I drink from my 1964 Ariel's tank and have found that most water is drinkable if flushed regularly (to keep fresh)and run through a britta filter.

Water has been my main problem abord BrendaJ-I have a factory installed tank under port settee,plumbed to sink (foot Pump) I have 5 rectangular plastic containers (may be 7 gal ea.) that have a spigot that is part of the cap. I use these for cooking,drinking. Tank water is used for washing dishes etc.. I store the jugs on the port settee upright with strapping thru the handles, the jug i am using is horizontal the spigot makes it easy to tap water, and another strap is used thru the handle to keep it on the settee. I have decided to cut down on the tools i carry sea and use the space under the starboard settee for more water. The 7 gal jugs are kind of heavy filled so i use a folding 2 wheeled cart to go for water if necessary. I must learn to use less water. I have an electric pump connected to sea water for general cleaning,plumbed to sink with enough hose under sink to wash down cockpit--water, water everywhere-------------------

Quote from: Mr. Fixit on February 11, 2011, 09:58:53 PM

I must learn to use less water.

No matter how much water you carry, if you waste it, it will never be enough.  Even at the marina with city water readily available, we practice our daily conservation and water discipline.  I find it is easier to always be in a conservation mode rather than trying to shift gears when the need arises.

One thirty gallon tank lasts us 6 weeks - cooking, light cleaning, all dish washing some drinking (morning coffee, tea, hot chocolate, etc).  This is not our main consumption source right now.  For that, we supplement with jugs, etc.

I'll be adding a 28 or so gallon water tank under the cockpit.

I recently had the following exchange on another forum (which I'll edit to make shorter); it started talking about propane use:

Him: A 20 lb propane cylinder lasts us 30 days; that's 4 people aboard.
Me: A 10 lb propane cylinder lasts us 90 days for 4 people aboard.

Him: You are not having unlimited hot water for dishes and showers!  We have 120 gallon tank that lasts 7-10 days.
Me: Right; we have 30 gallon tank that generally lasts about 40 days.

I love this exchange because it so nicely illustrates the "waste spiral" that is part of what the SailFar, KISS approach rejects.  In using "unlimited water" to wash dishes, essentially running all that fresh water right out the through-hull, he's also accepting the waste of the propane it took to initially heat it.  And where I'd put a 120 gallon tank on this boat I have no idea...

We have used a 2 gallon pump-up garden sprayer for showers.  My daughter and I get a comfortable shower with water left over...we could probably stretch it into three showers per 2 gallons.  I have a (land based) friend who was experimenting with this at his home last summer, and he reported "no loss of comfort" among he or family members that were showering this way.

The difference is, I think, an "always on" vs "rarely on" shower "head."  The same thing with washing dishes.  Another liveaboard couple here goes through a 50 gallon fresh water tankful every 2-3 days because, as the hubby reports, the wife washes dishes with the faucet wide open the whole time.

???

I've gotten our dish washing system (which also uses a pump up sprayer for rinsing), and stuff like water for coffee, grits, oatmeal, etc down to the number of pumps I need...with very little waste (in heating the water up).  Washing dishes typically uses 1/2 gallon ish water per day (1-2 meals for 3-4 people each).

In the summer, I use a sun shower to heat the water in the sun, but pour it into the sink (for washing) and pump sprayer (for rinsing).  The two gallon sun shower we have lasts 3-4 days of doing dishes.

Also, back to showering, 'sponge baths' for daily clean-up (or as has been suggested here on sailfar previously, the 'three baby wipe' bath is pretty cool), with the pump-up sprayer based shower a couple of times per week...

In other words, water lasts a LOOOOONG time when you take some relatively minor steps to NOT waste it.

(Admittedly, we do luxuriate under the marina shower while we are here...but we've been "out" and used the 'primitive' systems mentioned above, too).

After years of traveling around in a motorhome I got used to not using the tank water for drinking. Up north (Arkansas) we winterized the system with that RV antifreeze and when you flush it in the spring it takes forever to get all that nasty stuff out. Just easier to use jugs and conserve. Those habits will transfer over to sailing I have no doubt.

Larry

What are the best kind of jugs to carry?  I have 5 gallon squarish jugs of the kind that spring water is sold in, and 3 gallon cylindrical jugs.  3 gallons is easier to carry. 

I am wondering if jerry jugs have any advantage, or if those flexible bladder type gallon jugs are better. 

It would be nice if I could just put a jug above my sink and use a squeeze bulb to start a siphon to get water flowing.  Or just use a valve and gravity flow.

Paul - RE the jug-over-sink - I've thought of using that sort of system. Of my thinking so far, best IMO is to make a place for 2 of the large pump-up sprayers (or 1 large + one small removable handheld) behind the sink, refilling when needed from flexible tanks (http://www.survivalunlimited.com/waterstorage.htm) (one on order for a QC check prior to purchasing more) stowed low and on either side of my main bulkhead, fore and aft if I get 4 bags. They are 30 gallons each, but I would not be filling them to capacity of the bag, just capacity of their respective stowage areas. I figure that's less 'stress' on the bags, and gives some redundancy.

I have moved (empty versions) of the large square and rectangular plastic tanks around inside the boat, and fitting that shape into a boat hull the size of mine just doesn't work out too well. The bags have the added benefit of being able to be placed low & against the hull, just forward of CG, which should aid in getting the boat properly balanced and reduce pitch motion (compared to further forward up under the V, or aft).

Nestled between the bag locations are my house batteries (in a separate compartment, for sure :) ). I am using the battery compartment as a step-up into my elevated V berth. So this means that with the exception of the outboard, my heaviest gear/supplies are low and centered. Keeping the bags close together like this should help me get them plumbed fairly easily for refilling of the pump-up tanks, which are the absolute best way I have found to make water last while also having a 'hands free' experience (no need to constantly pump for water flow).

!sticker shock on the price of those water bladders!

I know I am going around and around with this water storage stuff, but it is hard to figure out the right way to do it.  I would like about 50 gallons.  After seeing the price of flexible tanks, I am thinking that I should look for a way to build a tank using existing bulkheads under the v berth.  Does anyone know what kind of paint one should use for an area that will be used for water storage?

Also, I am still interested in what type of water jugs people are using.

Quote from: skylark on February 13, 2011, 12:44:47 PM
!sticker shock on the price of those water bladders!

Heck, those 'Aquatank' bladders are *1/2* the price of a comparably-sized bladder that has the word "marine" attached to it... And those are the cheap 'marine' bladders.  ::) The Aquatank vII is a tougher construction, I think, which is why they cost more per gallon than the  ATv1's.

Also, if you compare the ATv1's to the hardshell water containers (square or rectangle) on a gallon-for-gallon price point, they are very comparable actually. The rectangular Reliance 7 gal container is $20 at WalMart (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Reliance-Products-Rhino-Pak/14550465) - so 4 of those, for 28 gallons total, would be $80, compared to the $65 for 30 gallons in the ATv1 bladders above.

Noticed this, when I was sussing out those prices: a 4 gallon horizontal container w/spigot (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=14550464&findingMethod=rr). Might work well, 'over the sink'.

Good looking jug that could eliminate all that pesky pump business.  A quick google found tons of complaints about the seal, though. Apparently, it leaks.  Too bad.

Yes, I was looking at Nauta water bladder prices at Defender when I wrote that.

Those are not bad prices.  I could see a 60 under the vee berth and a 60 under the cockpit, to be filled completely only when it rains.

Capn K

Keep us up to date regarding the quality check on those bladders.  Of course our biggest concern is durability to the constant chafe.  Making an integral tank has not proven to be difficult or all that expensive but it would be nice to just 'plop' one (a bladder) in a locker and be done with it plus having the option of removing it and utilizing the space for something else.

Never really thought about a sprayer for the galley water supply.  But don't you still need one hand to actuate to the sprayer?   It seems to me we're right back at the 'jack handle' water pump.  Or have I overlooked the obvious?

DQOTD...  Though my present sailing is on the hard (water too) I'm curious.  Has anyone considered those large laundry detergent jugs?  I kept a few for water storage.  They have a built in spigot and store around 2-3 gallons.  Some are squarish so don't take up as much room as a round one.  Thoughts?

Capt T - re: sprayer - once you pump it up, it'll spray until the internal pressure goes down to 0 relative. That, and the fact that they spray a nice wide cone of basically mist which really helps conserve, is why I like them so much. I've done some sleuthing around, and found what appears to be a higher quality sprayer than the usual plastic. A bit more expensive, but I plan to get one for testing. My current 1/2 gallon handheld has a small leak somewhere, it won't hold pressure over about 5 minutes, but because it is the small one, it only takes a few pumps to get enough for the chore at hand - whether that's washing dishes or me. :) Also, I think it would be easy to retrofit a spray head of your own liking onto the bigger, hose-equipped sprayers - so if you want a 'thicker, quicker' flow, you could use a common kitchen sprayer handle with little modification.

Leroy - That is an interesting idea. Is it difficult to get the "perfumey" smell out of the bottle, or water that is kept in those? Did you bleach or baking soda them, or something else, to get them non-stinky? :)

Quote from: CapnK on February 14, 2011, 12:07:21 PM

Also, I think it would be easy to retrofit a spray head of your own liking onto the bigger, hose-equipped sprayers - so if you want a 'thicker, quicker' flow, you could use a common kitchen sprayer handle with little modification.

We have three pump-up sprayers: a small 44 oz (or so) hand-held, a 1 gal. and a 2 gal.  The small and largest are the only ones we really use.

The 2 gallon one is an Ortho (so a bit more expensive 'branded' unit) that came with a 12 inch or so stainless 'wand' at the end of the hose.

My initial idea was to remove that metal wand and simply attach the spray head to the hose, but no-joy, at least without a bunch of fiddlin'.

So, the trusty hack saw was used to cut the wand short enough that I could reattach the spray head to it right at the hose-end fitting, and violins!  The sprayer right at the end of the hose.

It's kinda like a poor man's "Shower Massage" and seems to work really well.

Dunno if that's at all related to what you were saying, but it connected in MY mind.    ;)

As for

Quote

But don't you still need one hand to actuate to the sprayer?   It seems to me we're right back at the 'jack handle' water pump.  Or have I overlooked the obvious?

Well, silver lining, imo.  That's part of our conservation strategy...that we DON'T run "always on" when washing up for dinner, rinsing, showering, etc.  I personally don't understand the issue with 'can pump with only one hand' that I've heard so much about.  I mean, you pump (or spray) a bit of water into one cupped hand and go from there.

I don't know, I guess it's to some degree personal style.  The four of us manage pretty well with a galley hand pump and "rarely on" pump up sprayers (though they DO have a lock to lock open, we very, very rarely use it...).

If it's easy to "run" the water, it's easy to waste it.  One guy's POV.

After digesting the info for a bit I've come to the realization that, once again, my choice of words didn't clearly convey the question I had or my train of thought.  I was attempting to contrast the use of srayers and traditional galley pumps with the use of foot operated pumps. 

I think using sprayers is a fantastic idea that promotes water conservation while providing push-of-a-button pressurized water without tapping into the electrical bank.  And the traditional galley pump is a handsome piece of equipment that is nostalgic, simple and elegantly functional, and, is something that I only wish I could afford. 

But more importantly I am that guy who can mysteriously transfer some obnoxious substance from my hand to every imaginable surface and a few utterly impossible spots in a few quick haphazard movements that would for most others be a completly innocuous sequence of events.  It is that realization that warrants a foot-operated or 'hands free' only galley on our boat. 

For the past week or so I have been trying to imagine a fool proof way to convert a srayer to hands free mode without it becoming an unweildly beast that winds up circumventing the K.I.S.S. priciples.  Fortunately I have some time to ponder this concept more thoroughly before it becomes critical to come to a decision.  And there are plenty of good minds here to throw out some ideas. ;D

I haven't done it, but wouldn't it be pretty simple to rig a rod, stick, or string from a foot pedal to the sprayer trigger?  If  the trigger assembly were  clamped firmly in position,   I can envision something workable that wouldn't even approach the "Rube Goldberg" level.

 how much water, including drinking, cooking, washing, and emergency supplies, should I carry on board? assuming I'll be in the coastal area but may not be able to find free water, or a place to get get water. I will not have a fixed water tank on the boat for a while, so I'll be using jugs. that's OK with me though.
also will be turning my impossible to reach ice box, that's next to my sink, into a water tank and my old water tank in to a storage area.

Hey Bill,

  I am going to merge this thread into the one on water... lots of wisdom and experience already in there.

If I were not leaving the US, I would say 20 gallons would be a good number for one person... we have tankage / stowage for more since some places in the Bahamas could get tight with limited h2o.

Bill, being reasonably (but not overly) conservative, we burn an average of 5 gallons of water per person per day washing dishes, showering, and drinking the water.  That's for typical cruising of a week or less away from a dock with water supply.  If we needed to make a longer run, then we'd certainly cut back on consumption.

Tehani carries 35 gallons in built in tanks, one in the bow and one under the cockpit ( both bladders) and Laura stows probably another 8-9 gallons in jugs here and there. She puts them where needed for trim, or to fill an empty spot so stuff doesn't shift.

We also have the pump up shower full ( 2 gals) when we leave a water supply. And if we KNOW we'll be out for a longer time, we fill two of our collapsible jugs and stow them on the forward end of the cockpit seat, lashed to the stanchion each side.


We figure we can stay out about a month without any problems. Truth is we seldom get into the bow tank, even in the Bahamas. We found water available most every inhabited Cay we visited. Some was a long way away, but available.

We wash dishes in saltwater when the water is clean, then rinse with fresh via the shower. That really extends the usage. We NEVER wash clothes with salt water- takes huge amounts of fresh to rinse out the salt. Also, for clothes that aren't grimy, Laura just uses an ammonia/fresh water solution to wash- then no real rinsing required at all. And no ammonia smell afterwards.

Quote from: CharlieJ on March 24, 2011, 12:55:57 PM
Also, for clothes that aren't grimy, Laura just uses an ammonia/fresh water solution to wash- then no real rinsing required at all. And no ammonia smell afterwards.

Charlie,

That sounds like a great idea for washing clothes while cruising.
Thank Laura for the tip!

--Joe

Thanks, but we got the idea from the SSCA forums. Here's a link to a current thread on the subject. We started a long time ago though.

http://forum.ssca.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5183

kewl deal.. thanks yall.
I have a messed up bow tank. it's moldy and leaks. it might be a hose leaking under a hidden spot.  I am guessing it holds over 20 gal., and is under the whole v birth. I plan to cut open the tank and clean it out and then I can stack a lot of bottles in there.
I'm also on the Chessi bay, and it is not clean enough for bathing.  it seems no matter how I cut it, I need a lot of water just to cover that during the summer months..when you sweat pours off ya like rain.
  the trouble I'm having is.. for now at least.. I carry those plastic 1 gal. jugs. I am finding it harder every year to find water. it seems like you need to rent a slip and to get the water filled, and then you are not sure if it will be clean enough to drink. the water at my slip has green stuff floating in it. I would like to be able to stay out of a slip for 60 days at a time but it seems water is the biggest issue I am having.
I am looking at getting enough of those store bought water for drinking. maybe if I get some heavy rain storms, I can make a huge funnel and screen, and catch the rain. that would give me a little extra, but you can't count on the rain around here. maybe I can buy the 2oz bottle and stash them all over the small spaces.
the S&R stuff I used to do claims you need a Gal a Day minimum.

  but, if you guys are using an average of 5 gallons of water per person per day ,,,it looks like I'll need a supertanker ! lololol.

I have been using cheap thin paper plates and plastic forks...I reuse the forks for months  until they break... so my dish washing is cups and forks, and a pot. not sure if that helps.
  Thanks for the help. I'll start working on a plan.

We certainly don't use 5 gal per person per day!

I believe that gallon per day figure is for liquids. That would include liquids in cans of veggies, etc. NOT alcohol, which is a diuretic. We figure 1/2 gal of WATER per day, which is pretty close most times. In areas with clean sat water that is. Haven't been on the Chesapeake since the early 80's, but we're heading that way this summer. So we'll see

I'd look into a flex tank to replace the bow one. Vetus and others make heavy duty tanks. Tehani had a built in tank but Laura objected to the taste. SO we put a flex tank in there. No need for a vent and simple to install. We did lose about 2 gallons capacity though. But it's been nice ever since.

And don't bother talking to me about hot. We live on the south coast of Texas remember ;D ;D

Quote from: hearsejr on March 24, 2011, 05:28:24 PM

  but, if you guys are using an average of 5 gallons of water per person per day ,,,it looks like I'll need a supertanker ! lololol.

I have been using cheap thin paper plates and plastic forks...I reuse the forks for months  until they break... so my dish washing is cups and forks, and a pot. not sure if that helps.
  Thanks for the help. I'll start working on a plan.

Bill,

Here are some additional "conservation" numbers.  We are a family of four and we use AT MOST 5 gallons TOTAL per day.  That's cooking, drinking and 'showers.'

Dish washing: we use at most two quarts, and that would be a rather big load of dishes.  We usually do dishes once per day, and use a hand held sprayer also.  Used carefully, those sprayers are VERY use efficient.

"Showers:"  We see no need to take a full shower each day.  On the go, we alternate days with sponge bath and shower.  That stretches our water use, too.  For showers, we use an Ortho two gallon pump up sprayer and get at least two person-showers per two gallon tank-up.  With just a little extra care, we could probably stretch that to three showers per two gallon tank.

On the 2 gallon Ortho sprayer, i cut the wand off so the nozzle is essentially right at the end of the hose.  It is essentially a poor mans "shower massage" or similar hand-held shower, with the benefit that is it mostly "off" rather than "on."

 Thanks,
  that would help out a lot once I figure out a good technique. lol. I used to take a salt water bath in GA, where the water was cleaner and less muddy. I'd just get a fresh water rinse off and felt great.
I also did some rethinking on my water tank and I believe I have more area then I thought. I now think that I have like 45 + gal. up there.
getting the hoses under the sole replaced might be a problem.
I will get two of the hand pump pressure tanks this week. I'll try to get a couple of 2 gallon ones, but it will depend on what I can find, and how much they cost.
I wouldn't mind getting the 45 gal of fresh water tank back, but I think those bladders will be a little out of my price range.
Charlie...when will you be coming up here?  Call me when you get headed up and I'll meet up with you somewhere. Reedville has the cheapest dockage, $75/mo, but you might have the fish factory smell every few days.  further south there is a cheap dock but it's a tad more expensive.  it's due east on the map of Hampton VA, on the Bay side. the nick name is like Rebel marina, but I'm not sure of the real name. the guy that owns it used to live on a tug boat there. for a 30'er it was $150

I have been saving the bladders out of the boxes of wine for a few months now...

... who was I saving these for again?

For general purpose use, the hand held (1 liter or 1.5 liter are good sizes) are far more useful.  Don't know why you'd need 2 of the 2 gallon ones. Just a thought...

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 25, 2011, 01:16:48 PM
I have been saving the bladders out of the boxes of wine for a few months now...

... who was I saving these for again?

Dunno, but I know it wasn't Capn K or Frank  ;D

hehehehe Craig, I remember someone asking you to save those wine bags..I think someone called dibbs on them like a year ago. lol. I think you had few offers to help get the wine bags empty..lol.

the reason I was going to get 2 of the preasure jugs was because one will fail right when I need it..lol. well that and I could take them ashore and fill them from a garden hose when I find a friendly place who wouldn't mind me stealing a couple of gal of H2O. lol.
I found a one gallon,  jug, but I cann't seem to find anything else. there was small hand hel one at the store down the road but it was way too small to do a lot.

We'll be heading back to Tehani sometime in April. Then cruising at a slow pace towards Annapolis, and Baltimore. Won't be staying any spot for long enough to need a monthly slip, although we will be meeting some friends here and there.

We'll be posting to the Tehani thread as we go, and that shows up here.

kewl deal..I'll be looking out for ya. lol. I'll be the one who bangs on your hull one day asking for a cup of water. lol.

 ok, I will have about 20 gal of water, in plastic jugs, for now, and one of those blue filters for RVs from walmart.  I figure I can go ashore and fill them from a hose. useing just my dingy.
also I will just get 2 of the gal., bug sprayers for now and get something better in a few months..once I find out what will work. I also might get one of the solar shower things. I found one that's pretty cheap.
any other ideas?
thanks,
  Bill

I was using one of those blue RV filters, they do seem to help the taste of the water (we also use a brita).

One thing I read that made sense was to be mindful about using those filters when filling large quantity water
tanks... the article suggested they have activated charcoal that might decrease the chlorine content to the point it would be more friendly for "wee beasties".

How to take a bath with a bucket of water...

http://www.gadling.com/2007/05/26/how-to-take-a-bath-in-half-a-bucket-of-water/

 kewl
I have been adding bleach to my water, so if I use the blue filter and then ad bleach will it help or should I look for other ways to kill the bugs?
I'm thinking about getting those big blue water jerry cans. I think 4 of those would be easier to move and carry around then a bunch of the things I am now useing.

Thanks for the tip on the bucket bathing. I hope next sept to be in a place where I can jump over board and bath then rinse off on the deck. lol
  oh yeah I gotta learn fast..25days till I am in the yard then looking at maybe 20 days of work and I'm gone. lol.

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 29, 2011, 01:43:54 PM
One thing I read that made sense was to be mindful about using those filters when filling large quantity water tanks... the article suggested they have activated charcoal that might decrease the chlorine content to the point it would be more friendly for "wee beasties".

That's a very good point, Craig.  All to often we are disapointed by the 'chlorine taste' in our water yet it is is an easy way to keep a safe water supply. 

I've cobbled together filters for work in the past that utilized a sediment prefilter and then a carbon block filter.  They worked to remove particulates, chloramines and other offending 'tastes' in the water.  One could easily fabricate one of those to use at the hose end when filling.  Then dose the onboard tanks with chorine at the appropriate rate and then use another carbon filter (block or Brita or both) on the end before use.

One can't be too cautious when it comes to cooties. ;D

As I was surfing the net last night I ran across the website of the guy who did a circumnavigation on a tiki 21. I would post the website but I`m at work ant cannot connect to the site to get the exact address. Anywho, he had a unique water storage solution for such a small vessel... 50 1.5 liter soda bottles! As I glanced over that little detail I just couldn`t figure out why he didn`t have a installed tank. Granted a Tiki 21 is pretty spartan on space, but I`m sure something could have been fabricated. Then as I was laying down to sleep it hit me! I was in a "mono" frame of mind trying to figure out how "I" would place a bunch of little bottles around a small boat. In case some of you do not know a Tiki 21 is a catamaran and moveable weight would be pretty important to balance the hulls. Not that this would help anyone solve a water tank issue I just thought it was an interesting simple soluntion for his particular boat.

I can get the bottle water by the case of20 oz bottle for $3, and stuff them in the cubby holes all over the boat and I would not evern put a dent in the un used hiding places. lol.  these bottles seem a tad flimsy though. I refilled them at home in the past and reused them but I'm not sure how long they will hold though.
I'll try it and see. lol.

Quote from: hearsejr on March 30, 2011, 03:56:27 PM
I can get the bottle water by the case of20 oz bottle for $3, and stuff them in the cubby holes all over the boat and I would not evern put a dent in the un used hiding places. lol.  these bottles seem a tad flimsy though. I refilled them at home in the past and reused them but I'm not sure how long they will hold though.
I'll try it and see. lol.

It would seem that the bottles are kinda flimsy and would not hold up over time. Maybe get a bulk buy on the personal water bottles everyone seems to carry around these days! ;D With the right shape they could be easily stacked. Would make a nice picture trying to get them all in the dingy for a refill! ;D

Here is a source http://www.discountmugs.com/nc/category/sports-bottles/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Water%2BBottles%2B-%2BNS%2BBroad&gclid=CNjsrdzi96cCFcrt7Qodaxj_rA (http://www.discountmugs.com/nc/category/sports-bottles/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Water%2BBottles%2B-%2BNS%2BBroad&gclid=CNjsrdzi96cCFcrt7Qodaxj_rA)

 hehehehe I'll stick to the bigger gallon  jugs and the jerry cans..lol.maybe buy the case of 20 oz bottles to use as I start to get low on the jugs. not sure I want to try a fill 50 of the them things up every time I go ashore..lol.

well it looks like I'll be delaying my departure date. I got asked to help bring a friends boat up the East coast here shortly..lol.  ;D  ;D  ;D

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 24, 2011, 06:18:58 PM

Here are some additional "conservation" numbers.  We are a family of four and we use AT MOST 5 gallons TOTAL per day.  That's cooking, drinking and 'showers.'

When required, we can definitely cut back on water by washing dishes in saltwater and rinsing in fresh, using paper/plastic, limiting showers to maybe a rinse down, etc., but we couldn't do that every day. 

Our water breakdown for reasonable use, meaning turn water off in shower while soaping, etc...

Tea/Koolaid/Coffee: 1.5 gallons/day
Drinking Water for two adults, one child, and a dog (body needs a lot of this, especially when dehydrating in the summer sun): 3.5 gallons/day
Washing dishes (breakfast/lunch/dinner with no paper/plastic used): 2 gallons/day
Showering: 2 gallons (male), 3.5 gallons (female with lots of hair), 1 gal (boy), 1 gal (dog who swims in saltwater a lot) - total showering 7.5 gallons per day

We drink a lot of water and showering is our biggest consumption.  We carry 80 gallons of water, so we can get right at a week away from dock before needing more water, but work rarely lets us get away for more than a week anyway.  When we do get away for two weeks, then we cut back to make our water last, but I don't see how we could cut back to 5 gallons total for the day with as much water as we drink especially in the summer months.

I should also add that we have electric (12v) pressure water on the boat coming from a ~3 gallon per minute pump.  It's real easy to burn through water with an electric pump.  Washing hands and brushing teeth also use water through the day and is included in our overall calculations. 

Thanks for the discussion, Monomoy.  I think real-world numbers are ALWAYS helpful.

Couple of points below intended in the spirit of discussion and comparison, NOT criticism.

Quote from: s/v Monomoy on March 31, 2011, 08:04:18 AM

Washing dishes (breakfast/lunch/dinner with no paper/plastic used): 2 gallons/day

We wash breakfast and dinner dishes for four and use around 2 quarts per day.  We don't tend to use dishes for lunch (sandwiches and fruit is a typical lunch).

Quote

Showering: 2 gallons (male), 3.5 gallons (female with lots of hair), 1 gal (boy), 1 gal (dog who swims in saltwater a lot) - total showering 7.5 gallons per day

2 gallon pump up sprayer gives us 2-3 showers without loss of comfort.  Last year, I gave this "idea" for showering to a friend to try out ... he was looking at 'simplification strategies'... and he commented to me that he was amazed that he and his daughter could each get a shower from 2 gallons, with, in his words, "nothing missed, no loss of comfort."  So, there's statistics of "two" at least.   ;)

It is, of course, personal choice, but we don't feel the need to full-on shower every day.  Between swimming and sponge bathing (and that Peace Corps bucket technique looks VERY interesting), and the technique of the 'three baby wipes,' I think we manage to stay clean while stretching the water use.

Quote

I should also add that we have electric (12v) pressure water on the boat coming from a ~3 gallon per minute pump.  It's real easy to burn through water with an electric pump.

Yes, therein lies the ultimate difference.  We are not really using water a whole lot differently (though we mostly use jugs and bottles for drinking, not out of the tank) than you, but we have no electric pump and thus no "running" water.

The pump up sprayers are VERY conducive to conservation.

 I to drink water..lot's of water, and if it is cold, man I'd be set for lifde. lol.  I recently come to find out I have a huge watr tank built in up fron, and if I add another tank and a good filter system I could carry 50 gal. of drinking water, and 50 gal of of just fresh water for what ever I'll need. I plan on paper plates and plastic silverware.  this way I'd save some water. I have stacks of paper plate from the state when I got some of the surplus poop...I got like 900 of them along with the plastic silverware!
  I'm looking turning my ice box in to water.  it doesn't have much insulation, it's hard as heck to reach anything in near bottom. 

Nice to have plenty of water, but do remember- water is 8 pounds per gallon. Your two 50 gallon tanks is 800 pounds. Add another 20 gallons here and there and you are close to half a ton, just in water.

You'll probably be adding another ton in gear- anchors and rodes, clothing, books, charts, electronics, books, what have you. Plus your own weight.

Tehani has a dry displacement of 5300 pounds ( per the specs) and we figure her at 7500 fully loaded at the start of a cruise, or when we have just fully supplied. And that may be a tad low ;)

Not saying it's wrong for you or your boat- just something to bear in mind. Things have to be kept in balance.

And on your paper plates and plastic silverware-How much space do you have to store bags of trash? It isn't always a simple thing to get rid of. Many keys in the Bahamas already are loaded with their OWN trash- they really won't want yours.

 yep I hear ya.
my boat was said in the specs to have a draft of 5' 5"...but I descovered the draft to be just about 6'. it doesn't sound like a lot but it sure makes a diffrence when you find a shallow spot. lol.
   I think the specs said the boat displaces 8500lbs but I think thtat's a little under stated.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 31, 2011, 10:59:21 AM
Thanks for the discussion, Monomoy.  I think real-world numbers are ALWAYS helpful.

I do appreciate your reply.

My other thought on the matter is that our holding tank will only get us about a week, so we have to enter port for a pump out anyway and might as well fill the water tank while we're at it.  We do have a macerator pump for overboard discharge, but rarely find ourselves over three miles out in open water for an extended period.

Of the s/v Kolohe, an Alberg 30 that recently completed the passage from San Diego to Hawaii, skipper Don had this to say about the water tankage/use (quoted from a longer post on the Alberg 30 Mailing List):

Quote

We have a 30 gallon tank in the V-berth. An additional 30 gallons was stored in
lockers under the settee seats; those were a variety of plastic bottles and jugs
ranging from a mere 8 oz bottle up to 2.5 gallon jug and a few sizes in between.
We added flavored powders to the bottles as we used them, propel, crystal light,
etc.
We also had a flat of soda and tetra packs of chocolate milk, 25 one quart packs
of UHT milk for cereal and baking. (I Bake a lot of muffins, cakes, and brownies
offshore, major morale boosters).
Cooking evening meals with a pressure cooker and the liquids from the canned
meats and veggies helped reduce water ( and propane) needs. We use about a
gallon of water per day for three people. I always carry enough water for sixty
days and in a pinch that can be extended by survival rationing if need be.

(emphasis added)

Their passage was 26 days.

26 days...so that would be 26 gal, for the trip, right? that sounds pretty good. I figure add half more for me for that same trip and I'll be close to the real number I'll use, till I learn more about how to save my resources. lol.
  Thanks.

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 25, 2011, 01:16:48 PM
I have been saving the bladders out of the boxes of wine for a few months now...

... who was I saving these for again?

I am pretty much tripping over these things where ever I turn now. Who was asking for them?

(Please answer before I am covered and smothered by them)

Craig...has Kurt been sending you his?   ;D

 weeeeelll if I could figure out how to get them here, I'd be begging you for'em now. lol.

My boat has two built in 25 gal tanks located close to the center line in the main cabin. I have recently acquired 3 15gal potable water drums from a feed store ($30ea). They were  designed for farm use and are pretty beefy in construction with equally strong handles, enough to pick them up full, two will be mounted permanently under the cockpit in what would otherwise be waste space and one will be able to be carried ashore in the tender (in places that don't have dockside water) and/or moved around the deck for assorted water catchment options.
I have a bronze hand pump in my galley, with a future hand pump on demand water heater planned ( the only place on my boat fresh water goes). This uses alot less water than hot and cold pressurized water in the galley + head sink+ shower + other attempts to emulate a land style life.
As far as water makers are concerned I consider them a fairly extreme expense as well as another gadget to fail....the failure of which could put your life at risk (unless of course you have back up water supply). If anything you should have a manual operated water maker in your ditch bag which you can pull out if due to a failure of some sort you get stuck out in the ocean with no water.
I have a personal theory about systems on boat, considering everything is prone to fail at some time: "If the failure of any system or component puts you or your boat at risk it should be closely examined, backed up or replaced"

Couple of points- first and least important- I find hand pumps to be quite inefficient. I much prefer a foot pump and it usually isn't that hard to fit one in.

The other, and more important point- I would SERIOUSLY reconsider having
a 15 gallon container to use to lug water to the boat. You are talking about toting around 120 pounds of water. Many places you'll have to carry that from a
spigot to the dinghy- won't be fun. I use 5 gallon colapsible containers- we have four and sometimes THEY   
are more than I want. Particularly when you must tote them several blocks as in some cays in the Bahamas or a few other spots.

Thirdly- I have cruised now almost full time with 35 total gallons of water tankage and have never come close to using it all between water stops. 80 gallons is a
LOT of weight to carry!!

+1 on 5 gallon collapsible....two of those take a lot of effort to walk down a dock. any more would suck! :P

OK, I've just read through all the posts on this thread and didn't see this mentioned, so...

BTW, I hope it isn't a stupid question...

I have been interested in having a reverse osmosis water system on a boat as a secondary/survival water system, but I see that even the small ones are a fortune! I could buy a lot of bottled water for $2K+! Sheesh!

Anyway, I was wondering why you couldn't use a non-marine unit like this $150 one from Costco http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10040488

I realize that you would still need a manual or electric pump to go with it, but since it is a RO system, would it work?

Maybe I'm just taking the KISS principle too far, but I like to think outside the boating catalogs sometimes.  ;D

Quote from: dsmastern on August 17, 2012, 05:29:24 PM
OK, I've just read through all the posts on this thread and didn't see this mentioned, so...

BTW, I hope it isn't a stupid question...

I have been interested in having a reverse osmosis water system on a boat as a secondary/survival water system, but I see that even the small ones are a fortune! I could buy a lot of bottled water for $2K+! Sheesh!

Anyway, I was wondering why you couldn't use a non-marine unit like this $150 one from Costco http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10040488

I realize that you would still need a manual or electric pump to go with it, but since it is a RO system, would it work?

Maybe I'm just taking the KISS principle too far, but I like to think outside the boating catalogs sometimes.  ;D

If you were to plumb that and pump sea water through it you would get filtered sea water.

RO is not RO.  The porosity of the membrane is everything.  My little Katridin water filter I hike with filters down to about .025 microns... enough to get rid of most bad stuff..

salt molecules are a lot smaller...

Here is a comparison of what is filtered at what size (http://www.watersafe.in/membrane-advantages.html).

(http://www.watersafe.in/Assets/SizeChart.jpg)

OK. I was just trying to find something without the 'marine' price tag.

I guess KISS can only go so far!  ;D

Unless you are planning to cross oceans, water is simply not that hard to come by. Readily available every where US coast, and also quite easily available all over the Bahamas, at least in Bimini, the Berries, Nassau, Exumas and Eleuthera.

A Katahdin or MSR water purifier might be helpful onboard to purify questionable freshwater, although a 2 minute boils will kill anything living in it just as well. Filters to produce fresh from salt are still improving... the office I used to work in did some of these things for the military. Unfortunately, ROWPU water is unpalatable to the troops, so it's difficult to get them to drink it. Wish there were a small, cheap way of converting salt > fresh, but none yet that I am aware of.

James Baldwin posted a video of his integral water tank design and installation for an A30.  What an awesome solution for increased water storage.  Gotta love epoxy and fiberglass!  I couldn't imagine drinking water from that old tank from the 60s that didn't have an inspection port. 

http://atomvoyages.com/gallery/video-gallery/315-integralwatertank.html (http://atomvoyages.com/gallery/video-gallery/315-integralwatertank.html)

dsmastern,
     I think I understand what you are saying.  And it's been done by many.  I think there was a decent write up in good old boat within the last year or two, on building your own RO system, a google search also produces several how to articles.  There are significant differences between residential units, such as the one you linked to, and marine units.  One of the benifits of the DIY approach is that you will be able to use standard membranes and parts, and not be locked in to using others proprietory parts.  However, I suspect you will spend a significant amount of time and money on research and development, and as others have stated, it's probably more practical to just buy/acquire water.  My take on the matter is that you might save some $$, but the downsides of R.O. water were still all present.

There was someone that talked of a homebuilt watermaker he used, that used the a peddle method like a bicycle.  As he peddled it ran a pump and that went to a pipe that had a a pressure release on one side and a membrane on the other with a cap at the end of the pipe.  He said peddling was easy and kept the extra cookies off his belly.  The relief valve was set at the pressure that the membrane needed so it pushed fresh water out and flushed the heavier salt out the pressure relief.  Whole mess unscrewed in about ten minutes for maintenance.  I can't for the life of me remember what gph he was putting out, but it was enough that he only carried 20 gallons in reserve, just refilled his tank with the 1 gallon bottle he used for the output of fresh water.  It was easy to stow when not in use.

What else are you going to do on long passages?

Collect rain.

Well for one thing- I'm darned sure not gonna go offshore with only 20 gallons of water aboard, no matter what.

I carry that much on my 21 foot sloop when coastal cruising.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on December 11, 2012, 12:16:06 PM
Collect rain.

Even your reply was so KISS, you made me laugh. Thanks for that.
Mathilda has 2 twenty five gallon tanks under the berths plus 2 five gallon jerrys in the lazarette.
And a tarp to catch rain.

Quote from: CharlieJ on December 12, 2012, 11:50:23 AM
Well for one thing- I'm darned sure not gonna go offshore with only 20 gallons of water aboard, no matter what.

I carry that much on my 21 foot sloop when coastal cruising.

If solo sailing, I can see 20 gallons working as a reserve. Apparently he only used the gallon the he desalinated everyday for his personal use, so 20 gallons if his equipment gets trashed is not such a bad thing.  He travelled quite extensively all over and never had a problem.  Keep in mind, this was on the internet and everything on the internet is true  ::).

It was a very small unit and looked simple as can be.  A small pump the size of a Spam can, connected to the pipe with a a membrane and pressure valve.  The intake hose looked like garden hose with a strainer that he just tossed over the side when he was using it. It had a a small frame that would lock into the cockpit table mount so he could see and steer when in use.  He just sat on the laz and peddled away.  Been trying to find it again on the net, but no luck so far.