I am building an anchor platform for the bow of my Columbia 30. I am at the point where I want to buy the anchor before completing. All my sailing in the past was weekends and very short trips. Since I intend to stay out several years I want to equipt with the best set up for anchoring. I will oversize for safety. My question is --should I spend the money on a CQR or does anyone have experience with other types of "plow " anchors. I will also carry a Danforth however I prefer a plow for easier storage on the platform.-- any suggestions?
I have a 22 lb. bruce and a 13 lb. danforth both on the sprit. The danforth lives under it and the bruce tight on its roller. I also have a 25 lb cqr but changed it out with the bruce. I don't really like plow anchors of this small size as they don't seem to have enough surface area/weight to set very well except in sand or small gravel. I am going to get a 35 lb plow instead and that should work better. It seems that is about the minimum size for a really usable plow.
Mr Fixit -
On my last boat, I had one of the unusual but VERY effective Bulwagga (http://www.noteco.com/bulwagga/) anchors. Though they were designed for use in rock and weed, I found it works *great* in sand and mud bottoms as well. They are not the cheapest nor the most expensive anchors, but in my experience with it (2+ years) it always set instantly or very fast, held good even when the boat swung on the tides, and came out easily even after lying to it for 36-48 hours. My experiences with that Bulwagga made me a customer for life. I plan on getting one for this boat, eventually - it is not a priority since I have lots of other boatthings to get in the meanwhile, but there *will be* a Bull on the bow when I cast off on my first long trip. :)
(http://www.noteco.com/bulwagga/Anchor_sand_set_sequence_b.jpg)
I too have a Bruce about 17# with 30' chain attached on the bow pulpit. I have really had good results with it, even in some nasty little blows. I get up and down several times to check and I am always in the same place. It sets easily and resets quickly, even when the wind keeps shifting. I anchor in a lot of mud and sand. After a hurricane, I decided to beef up a little. This summer I bought a 35# Claw and have another 60' of chain in 2 -30' pieces I can add when needed. It is currently in the Lazarette. Do not particularly want to haul this one up every time I anchor. I am still trying to figure out the best way to easily access either when needed. Tough to switch out in nasty blows and rough seas. I am a small female, so that can be limiting at times with strength. I love seeing what others have done.
Hmmm - plow. The CQR has the knuckle joint if you will, giving it an edge to stay put. If I only had one anchor it would be the CQR, my second would be a Bruce anchor, which I have had a creat deal of success with a variety of bottom surfaces.
If your Columbia is on the heavy side (as mine is) I would pay the extra money for the CQR. As for chain - you'll doubtlessly hear as many answers on this as people you ask - a good rule of thumb - carry at least as much chain as the total length of your boat.
My two cents.
John
Does anyone have any experience with "Kingston" anchors--They are made in Canada or the company that imports them is in Canada. I am not sure of details. The price of their CQR type anchor is very reasonable if the quality is there.
I've used the Kingston brand of "Danforth" Style lightweight anchors. The quality is excellent, although I much prefer the lighter (larger) Fortress lightweights over steel.
Never used their "CQR" style.
The boat came with a danforth and we had problems with it dragging. Got a oversized "Claw" brand kinda look like a Bruce or CQR (forgot the weight) holds great.
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This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.
S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27
Over more than 20 years of cruising, I've happily used Fortress, Kingston, Danforth, CQR, Delta & Bruce anchors, on boats under 29Ft. loa.
I've found that "DELTA" anchor is not only cheaper (per #), but also a better anchor, than the CQR. Lewmar (Simpson-Lawrence) manufactures both, and will "privately" agree. The DELTA has a much higher fluke area to weight ratio, greater fluke area, more of its fluke area in the rear quarter, and more angle on the back of the flukes - all desirable attributes in a "stockless" anchor (like the pivoting fluke Danforth & Fortress lightweights).
The Delta would be my first choice in deep or cold waters, where it's difficult to "look" and/or "dive" your anchor.
The Fortress is an excellent choice for shallower, warmer waters where you could hand set it. It's sometimes a little difficult to get a firm set, but once set it's performance is unmatched. Weight being an issue with smaller cruisers, the Fortress provides much more holding power per pound than any other anchor.
FWIW,
Gord May
Dan -
It will be very interesting to hear your experiences with the Rocna. I know a number of people who wonder about those, since they are talked about/hyped pretty regularly on a number of sailing websites by the fella who owns the company, but there is not a whole lot of first-person experiences with them that I've seen.
And, BTW - Welcome aboard! I looked at your blog/site briefly, it looks good, I will have to check it out in more depth later (pardon the pun ;D )...
I am in the process of installing my primary ground tackle system... it should be pretty good once it is all setup... but it's going to take a while to install it all.
The primary anchor will be the 33 lb. Rocna, with 30' of 5/16" G4 high-test galvanized chain, and 150' of 5/8" three-strand nylon. This is probably a bit overkill for most people, but I plan on some longer cruises than most, and will be very dependent on the Pretty Gee staying where I put her.
For the rest of the ground tackle system, I have a pivoting bow roller, a four-inch mooring bitt, a chain tensioner, an SL Anchorman manual windlass with drum and gypsy and a chain pipe. Mounting the ground tackle will take a bit of thought, as the Pretty Gee has a four-foot retractable bowsprit for the screacher, and the genoa furling gear is right at the bow chainplate. I'll probably have to mount the bow roller a bit to one side, but we'll see how it works out. I'll post the details on my blog. :D
What is your secondary system? Or will you put all your faith in the Roca?
I have a 14 lb. Danforth, with 8' of chain and 100' of 1/2" three-strand nylon for use as a lunch hook/kedge anchor. At some point, I'd like to get a slightly larger (20 lb. or so) Danforth, for use as a secondary, and then use the 14 lb. as a backup.
Paranoia, when it comes to the ground tackle for my boat, is a requirement.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 17, 2006, 04:49:06 AM
The one I just bought is a 33 lb. Rocna, which is out of New Zealand. It is a next-generation anchor, like the Spade, and I will be happy to report back after getting some use out of it.
Any feedback on the Rocna?
Actually, I'm very happy with it. 33 lb. Rocna on 30' 5/16" G4-High-test Chain, and 180' 5/8" rope. Main problem is that hauling it up by hand really sucks. I'll be really happy when the windlass installation is completed.
The real problem I've found with it is that it tends to bring up about 20 lbs. of mud and sand with it, every time I've used it...
I've got a 33# CQR, a 35# Bruce and a small Danforth for a lunch hook. I'm seriously thinking about adding a fisherman type anchor which I can disassemble and store in the bilge as hurricane insurance. The anchor platform has not been mounted yet, but it is finished.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/pyrat/Sailing/IMG_0390.jpg)
Under construction...
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/pyrat/Sailing/IMG_0941.jpg)
Finished...
Looks great!!! Very nice job. :)
Thought I would throw in a pic of the SARCA for general edumication...
(http://www.anchorright.net/admin/productimages/4492b120e1118.jpg)
Incredibly effective, love it.....But it is a bastage to store belowdecks with that huge hoop on the back. As a "bull bar" for a permanent bow mounted fitting it is ideal.
Alex.
Quote from: CapnK on September 17, 2006, 10:57:59 AM
Looks great!!! Very nice job. :)
Actually, thank Tim Lackey (http://lackeysailing.com). Tim does amazing things with wood, not to mention almost everything else you find on an old boat. :)
Joe - Agreed - Tim is a master craftsman! {insert 'thumbs up' icon}
Alex - Cool! There has been a long ongoing discussion at the Ariel site about various "2nd Gen" anchors, it is good to hear from someone with actual experience using the Sarca.
Manufacturers get online and tout their products, but actual customer experience is a better indicator, IMO. :)
Just got back from Wilmington where I sailed the boat down and took my Captains liscence tests.
I normally anchor a couple times a week, but mostly just use my lunch hook on afternoon sails. I took my shiney new Manson with me for the trip, I anchored for the night half way there, half way back, and used it again for the afternoon stop half way up the river.
I normally try to set pretty close to a 7:1 scope, but tried the Manson at about 5:1 the first night, and just over 4:1 the second. Normally I would not think too much of the results of using the anchor so few times but I am impressed so far.
THe first night, there was about 15k of wind, but there was 2.5k of current, that turned during the night. From the GPS, there appeared to be no change in position outside of the swing circle (no drag). THe bottom was sand with some weed cover. The anchor set quickly, and apparently reset quickly when the current switched.
THe return trip I anchored in the same place, it is on the ICW, with very little protection (behind the 'BC' mark, just south of Surf City). THe wind was blowing pretty good, forecast for 25k, probably gusting slightly higher.
I let out enough rode for about a 4:1 scope (for testing).
The anchor alarm never went off, but the bread crumbs look like someone colored over the swing circle. THe wind and current (again, 2.5, and switching during the night) swung the boat through the entire circle, but there appeared to be no drag. I would not have trusted a Danforth in these conditions unless I had two set in a V with the roades linked.
I stopped on the river for a quick swim, and the clean the boat up before I got back to the marina. I gave it enough rode to set, and then choked it up short. It held with the 10-15k wind.
I used the rode for my stern anchor, which is stinkpot rigged (6' of chain) ;D
The anchor was no harder to retrieve then my CQR had been, but did not pinch my fingers like the CQR did. The flukes came up pretty clean, but the roll bar drained sand and mud in the cockpit. Won't be an issue once the roller is set up on the bow for it.
Really early, probably too early to tell but so far I am pleased with my Manson supreme.
(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3509&stc=1&d=1153863882)Borrowed the picture from Ebb
I got mine from Azure Marine,
Toll-Free Number 1-888-586-4732
Southeast Florida
954-962-4515
.)
OBTW;
Manson 25 pound Supreme anchor (galvanized)
$173.001$173.00Sub Total:$173.00 Handling:$5.00 UPS Ground:$21.42 Grand Total:$199.42
This is less then half what the Rocna was going to cost.
http://www.azuremarine.com/store/det...ct_id=MAN:S25G (http://www.azuremarine.com/store/det...ct_id=MAN:S25G)
__________________
How does this anchor attach to the rode? I notice a long slot on the top of the shaft, is this part of the attachment system?
Oded Kishony
The anchor is very similar to my SARCA. The long slot is rather nifty. A D-shackle's bar runs along the slot. When it is at that far end of the slot the anchor digs in and the boat is anchored, when you motor forwards, the D-shackle with your rode slides along the slot towards the anchor and the anchor is easily extracted fomr the bottom.
I always thought it was a gimmick and that the first thing that would happen would be the slot gets full of crud and the shackle would not slide...but I have been pleasently surprised by how well the system works on the Sarca, and assume it is the same deal here.
It MUST be a stainless D-shackle, even if the anchor is galv. Galv on galv can bind up and not slide cleanly in the slot.
Alex.
Faith- Congrats on the Capts License Test!!!!!!!!!!! GROG GROG GROG for you Matey. :D
Very interesting anchor. Results are looking good so far. You are so right about the galvanized shackle. I spent a good part of 2 days trying to get mine off to switch out anchors. I ended up using a blow torch (my first experience with that gadget) in conjunction with lots of Blaster, hammers, pry tools and sailor girl language. :D I did drag anchor and chain off the boat to the dock prior to adding fire. :o My plan is to go buy a stainless shackle and replaced the galvanized asap.
I have been trying out my Fast Set Delta 22#, recommended for 30-40' boats. I have 30' 5/16" Hi tensile chain. I have had several times that the boat direction has turned 180 degrees and the anchor did not drag at all. So far I am pleased. It also breaks loose easily. I have not had a strong blow yet, so I still have some testing to do. Good price on the one you got too! Keep us posted on the tests.
The one thing I'd say about using a SS shackle, in place of a galvanized shackle, is if you're anchored out for longer periods of time, the SS shackle may fail due to corrosion. They can get buried in the bottom and the lack of oxygen can cause them to corrode rather more quickly than you'd expect. Same problem with stainless steel chain in an anchor rode. Just something to think about, as stainless steel corrodes very quickly without constant oxygen exposure.
svFaith- Congrats on the captain's license. :D
The term Stainless steel covers a very broad range of alloys. What you say is very true of 304, less true of 316 and not at all true of the 4 series and other more exotic marine mixes that they have come up with.
The stainless that is actually designed to be galvanised (I used to work in building electro-winning plants for mines) or live in the bottom of slurry tanks is certainly not stuff that objects to being deprived of oxygen.
Not all stainless is created equal.
Also, with the Sarca, I have noticed that the slot is designed for a very oversized D shackle...So even with 316, I would feel confident leaving it on the hook for 6 months at a time. (all other factors not being an issue)
My biggest issue with stainless chain in the rode is that the constant wave action of holding a boat will work harden and overstress the links on either side of the individual welds.
And that is why I decided against SS chain.
cheers
Alex.
Of course, getting shackles made of the 4xx series stainless is pretty much a custom thing, at least around here. Of course, using an oversized shackle means that you have to have an oversized link in the chain to connect to the oversized shackle.
I like to give Craig Smith a hard time on various forums, mainly because he does such a great job of defending his Rocna anchor (I am sure it is a fine anchor). I personally might have bought one had it not been for the savings I had with my Manson Supreme (good anchor).
Anyways, Rocna has some pretty good info on their web site. Here is a table they posted;
(http://www.rocna.com/images/remote/wind-forces-graph.jpg)
What I noticed was the big difference required to hold a smaller boat.
Yet another metric by which the small boat wins. ;D
And the ground tackle is lighter, smaller, and considerably less expensive... :D Steve Dashew has an 110 KG Rocna anchor on his new boat IIRC... That's 242 lbs. of anchor...not to mention how much the chain must weigh and cost...
Reporting back on my initial experience with a Rocna anchor. I put a 55# Rocna on my 22,000# HR. All chain rode (5/16" HT) to a vertical windlass late last summer. I live aboard and sail as long as the wind is blowing and it isn't TOO cold.
My anchoring has been in Chesapeake mud with the odd sandy spot.
The anchor sets quickly and hard. There isn't any doubt at all when it sets. Every single time, even the lunch stops when I don't reverse on it and the wind is light, I have had to motor over it to break it free. That is my kind of anchor.
Based on anecdotal information from friends, I would expect similar performance from a Spade. Definitely easier to set and stronger holding than a Delta, and much much improved over a CQR.
I've had much the same results with my 15kg Rocna. No complaints for the most part. Do wish it wouldn't bring up quite so much of the bottom every time I bring it back aboard though.. makes an awful mess of the foredeck.
Quote.. makes an awful mess of the foredeck.
Same with my Manson... one draw back. :P
Ok, I have not made any progress on my anchor roller in the last two weeks (I made the roller base, and faired it into the deck, re-non-skidded and painted the foredeck and then the wx got cold).
So, I decided to look for a replacement for the R.O.D. B. F.(Rusty old Danforth, Bent Fluke) that rides on the bow. I plan to keep it up there hanging off of the clips as a secondary anchor... so.
I like the Fortress anchors. I have used them on OPB's, and really like pulling them in. ;D Oh yea, and the way they set and hold too... ;)
So, I look at their chart... fx-7 lists 16-27' boats... (too small for me) so I go to the fx-11. That is better at 28-33' but then I look at the FX-16. The size is not much bigger then the R.O.D. and you could anchor a fleet of our boats on the thing.. ;D ;D ;D
So then I look at the second R.O.D. I have on board. It is a smallish one that sits in the lazy-rat hatch on top of 75' of rode that I can literally toss overboard with one hand as a 'parking brake'
(the anchor, not the rode.) So I go ahead and bite the bullet and buy an FX-7 to replace the R.O.D......
SO, they arrive.
First, I am really impressed with the quality. I have looked and used others, but I am feeling pretty good about these.
So, I put the FX-7 together..... :-\ it 'seems' as big as the R.O.D.B.F. I have not yet tried but am thinking this think will not fit in my lazy-rat hatch without some twisting and turning... not too cool for the 'parking brake'. >:(
Then I put the FX-16 together... again great quality. I will say 'great' anchor... even though I have not yet used it.
It is 'great' in that it looks like it belongs on the bow of the queen marry...
(ok, maybe not quite that big) Thankfully it can be taken apart, and stowed below as a storm anchor.
On re-checking the measurements the FX-7 will fit on the bow as the replacement for the R.O.D. B. F. 8)
So...
Fortress makes a less fancy version of their anchors called the 'guardian' series. They are not anodized, and they do not offer the adjustable fluke feature (for really soft mud). I looked at them, but decided against them as I noticed they seem to test lower too... can't really esplain that. ???
Buuuutttt...... there is a smaller guardian.. a 2.5# model that should fit in the lazy rat nicely.... ;D :D ;) :D ;D
.......please help me friends. ;D
I'm a bit wary of the Fortress anchors, as I understand that once they've dragged, they can start to plane and will not reset at all. A fluke-type anchor is not really ideal for areas that have reversing currents or winds, as well as areas that have weedy or grassy bottoms as most fluke-type anchors don't really reset as well as the plow or next-generation* type anchors do.
Another strike against the Fortress, for me at least, is that aluminum is not all that durable a material, especially when underwater for extended periods of time. It is also far more subject to fatiguing than is steel. I think I'll stick with my Danforth, and yes, it is an actual Danforth brand anchor, and my Rocna. :D
* Next generation anchors include the Rocna, Buegel, Spade, Manson Supreme, XYZ, and Bulwagga designs. Of these, I think that the Rocna, Beugel, Spade, Manson-type make far more sense than the XYZ and Bulwagga, both of which have some issues IMHO with their design and usability. While they may work quite well, the fact that the XYZ and Bulwagga present great problems in storing and stowing makes them less desireable as useful ground tackle.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 06, 2007, 06:48:38 PM
I'm a bit wary of the Fortress anchors, as I understand that once they've dragged, they can start to plane and will not reset at all. A fluke-type anchor is not really ideal for areas that have reversing currents or winds, as well as areas that have weedy or grassy bottoms as most fluke-type anchors don't really reset as well as the plow or next-generation* type anchors do.
Another strike against the Fortress, for me at least, is that aluminum is not all that durable a material, especially when underwater for extended periods of time. It is also far more subject to fatiguing than is steel. I think I'll stick with my Danforth, and yes, it is an actual Danforth brand anchor, and my Rocna. :D
* Next generation anchors include the Rocna, Buegel, Spade, Manson Supreme, XYZ, and Bulwagga designs. Of these, I think that the Rocna, Beugel, Spade, Manson-type make far more sense than the XYZ and Bulwagga, both of which have some issues IMHO with their design and usability. While they may work quite well, the fact that the XYZ and Bulwagga present great problems in storing and stowing makes them less desireable as useful ground tackle.
Someone has been reading his magazines a bit too much.... ::)
s/v Faith-
It isn't a matter of reading... it's a matter of experience. I've had a Danforth-type anchor plane on me after it came unset during a tide shift. I can't imagine a lighter, less dense version, which is what a Fortress really is, doing any better. That's one reason I decided to not go with the stock Danforth as my primary anchor. I would rather have a more versatile anchor as my primary.
I've also used Bruces, CQRs and Fisherman-type anchors. Fisherman don't seem to grab well in much of anything. CQRs seem to be pretty good, but I've heard lots of horror stories about them. I've also not had enough experience with them to say definitively whether I like them or not, but the hinge bothers me... it seems to be a flaw in the design. I'd probably go Delta before I went with a CQR. Also, the blade design seems to be counter-intuitive to the idea of holding fast to the ground. Bruces don't seem to really grab all that well, all the times I've used them. It never seems to take all that much effort to break out a Bruce anchor, especially compared to a Danforth or Rocna—and yes, I've tried with similar weight anchors in the case of the Rocna and Bruce, the Danforth was lighter.
I've also used a Buegel and my own Rocna. From what I can see of the geometry and actually comparing the anchors, I don't see a huge difference in the functionality of the Rocna, Spade, Buegel and Manson Supreme. While I think the designers would probably disagree, functionally, they're all modified plough designs for the most part. However, unlike a more traditional plough, the blades are designed to resist movement through the ground far more on the newer designs.
Concerning the Bulwagga and XYZ, I don't have any first-hand experience with...but from the photos I've seen of them... I can't see how they could be stored easily... especially the Bulwagga. They both seem to take up huge amounts of space, which I don't see as feasible on a smaller boat.
Personally, I'd love to use a lighter anchor. My boat, being a trimaran, is far more weight sensitive than I'd like it to be. I can't afford to have an all-chain rode. The 30' of chain I've got now, along with the 150' of rope and the anchor are pushing it pretty hard as it is.
Aluminum and stainless steel I don't see as viable materials for cruising anchors, especially if you're going to be anchoring out more often than not. Aluminum tends to fatigue under far lower loads than does steel and has corrosion issues as well. Stainless steel has corrosion issues and is really expensive.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 06, 2007, 07:50:40 PM
s/v Faith-
It isn't a matter of reading... it's a matter of experience. I've had a Danforth-type anchor plane on me after it came unset during a tide shift. I can't imagine a lighter, less dense version, which is what a Fortress really is, doing any better. That's one reason I decided to not go with the stock Danforth as my primary anchor. I would rather have a more versatile anchor as my primary.
I agree. I have the Manson Supreme as my primary. I like the Fortress for a secondary. I also have read about the planing issue, but never anywhere other then marketing for
another new generation anchor.
There are quite a few folks who swear by the danforth, and quite a few who carry a fortress as a primary anchor. Frankly, I would not do that either, but not for any reason other then the bent shanks and flukes I have seen and experienced with danforths... under a changing wind / current condition so I ASSume that the fortress might do that also. My "R.O.D.B.F." mentioned in my original post has served me long and well. The Fortress was a viable replacement... and a whole bunch lighter to boot.
I've had my $45 dollar 'danforth look alike' hold in weeds and hard sand where neither my bruce nor delta would set. Yet...make it a bit softer bottom and the same anchor drags while the other 2 'bite hard'. Anchors are like car brands....go from your own lessons and experiences.....and they change with bottoms. On jubilee I carry a 14lb danfoth knock off and a 22lb delta fastset
s/v faith-
My boat tends to accelerate under the force of current a bit faster than yours would...since it is much lighter.... so the Danforth wouldn't reset...it kited instead... I think adding a bit more chain to it would have helped a bit...but I'd rather just use the Danforth as a kedge anchor.
I've never managed to bend a shank, but have bent a fluke...
I've liked how well my Rocna sets in most conditions I saw last summer... over varied bottom types.
Been thinking about this anchor topic. The best anchor is the one you have experimented with and have faith in. Don't take others words for it,don't read about it...TRY IT. Have 2 different types and know from your own experience where they work best and where they fail......cause some night, some where ,it IS going to blow real hard out there and you will be below trying to sleep with one eye open.....but ya can close both IF you know from your own experiences with your own anchors on your own boat !! That really IS the bottom line. 'pun intended'
Well put, Frank. And once again we see the role of confidence - confidence born of experience - in good seamanship.
Thanks. Grog to ya.
Quote from: s/v Faith on February 06, 2007, 03:20:52 PM
....I like the Fortress anchors. I have used them on OPB's, and really like pulling them in. ;D Oh yea, and the way they set and hold too... ;)
So, I look at their chart... fx-7 lists 16-27' boats... (too small for me) so I go to the fx-11. That is better at 28-33' but then I look at the FX-16. The size is not much bigger then the R.O.D. and you could anchor a fleet of our boats on the thing.. ;D ;D ;D
So then I look at the second R.O.D. I have on board. It is a smallish one that sits in the lazy-rat hatch on top of 75' of rode that I can literally toss overboard with one hand as a 'parking brake' (the anchor, not the rode.)
So I go ahead and bite the bullet and buy an FX-7 to replace the R.O.D......
SO, they arrive.
First, I am really impressed with the quality. I have looked and used others, but I am feeling pretty good about these.
So, I put the FX-7 together..... :-\ it 'seems' as big as the R.O.D.B.F. I have not yet tried but am thinking this think will not fit in my lazy-rat hatch without some twisting and turning... not too cool for the 'parking brake'. >:(
Then I put the FX-16 together... again great quality. I will say 'great' anchor... even though I have not yet used it.
It is 'great' in that it looks like it belongs on the bow of the queen marry... (ok, maybe not quite that big)
Thankfully it can be taken apart, and stowed below as a storm anchor.
On re-checking the measurements the FX-7 will fit on the bow as the replacement for the R.O.D. B. F. 8)
So...
Fortress makes a less fancy version of their anchors called the 'guardian' series. They are not anodized, and they do not offer the adjustable fluke feature (for really soft mud). I looked at them, but decided against them as I noticed they seem to test lower too... can't really esplain that. ???
Buuuutttt...... there is a smaller guardian.. a 2.5# model that should fit in the lazy rat nicely.... ;D :D ;) :D ;D
.......please help me friends. ;D
Picture for comparisonl
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/3anchors.jpg)
I have a SuperMax 12 (18 pounds) and have been happy with it. I have a MacGregor 26M with a 50hp. This anchor holds at 3800 rpm's. I don't push it more than that. The 13 pound fluke would not hold above 2300 rpm's. Hard sand, mud.
It will reset with boat moving 3+ knots. (another story)
I run a 15lb Manson plow off the bow and I have a 10lb galvo danforth back up. Works fine on my TS 16 Hartley. Best, Ged
John posted that he has bought a 35# Manson Supreme (I think it was the Supreme) for his Alberg so I thought I might post some updated impressions of my Manson Supreme (#25).
It has set very quickly and held very well so far. We have used it with 3:1 in a fair amount of current and wind and it has held well. It makes a big difference to me as I do nto sleep well until I KNOW the anchor is holding. I usually wait until the tide has turned before I call it 'set' and the Manson has not let me down.
I used to not go less then 5:1 with my RODBF (Rusty Old Danforth, Bent Fluke) and I did not feel comfortable on less then 7:1.
I am very happy with the Manson, and would buy it again.
(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3509&stc=1&d=1153863882)
Thanks for the vote of confidence...it IS the Manson Supreme that I got. Picked it up today, as a matter of fact.
That 35 lb-er is one honkin big anchor. ;D
The plan is to use the Manson as #1 bower, 33lb Bruce (actual) as #2 and 22 lb Danforth (clone) as #3, with a 13 lb Danforth (actual) as kedge. Right now, Gaelic Sea is riding to the Bruce and the big Dannie as her Bahamian Moor, and so far, so good.
I'm glad to hear that you are so far satisfied with the Manson. It helps, in terms of my 'quality of sleep' in nights to come. ;D ;D
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who things a 15kg anchor is about the right size for a 28-30' boat. I was out at Tarpaulin Cove again, and was rather horrified by the size that most powerboaters consider sufficient for their boats. A 31' Silverton, 14000 lbs., had a 12 lb. Danforth as its primary anchor, and from what I could tell, no secondary anchor aboard.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 17, 2006, 07:13:25 PM
I have a 14 lb. Danforth, with 8' of chain and 100' of 1/2" three-strand nylon for use as a lunch hook/kedge anchor. At some point, I'd like to get a slightly larger (20 lb. or so) Danforth, for use as a secondary, and then use the 14 lb. as a backup.
Paranoia, when it comes to the ground tackle for my boat, is a requirement.
Be very afraid of danforths as they do not like to reset. THREE beaching because my danforth didn't reset after a 180 wind shift and incoming storm. I now use a 22lb bruce. It doesn't, usually, have to reset as it never even leaves the bottom when a 180 wind shift occurs. It simply pivots in the bottom and when I watched it even dug in deeper as it pivoted. My danforth now plugs a hole in my fence to keep my dog in. Works great, never needs resetting!! My secondary anchor is a 16.5lb bruce and my storm anchor will be a fortress as big as I can store (used for STRAIGHT line pull).
I am well aware of that RTBates... that's why I have a 15 KG Rocna as a primary anchor, now with 75' of 5/16" chain and 150' of 5/8" three-strand as a rode. My secondary is currently a 12 or 13 lb. Danforth with 15' of 5/16" chain and 100' of 5/8" three-strand for a rode. After some thought, I am planning on getting a 22 lb. Delta as a new secondary and using the Danforth as a stern anchor. :D
I had a wild and wooley experience on the weekend that basically saw a yacht mooring turn into a surf beach....
ONE SINGLE WAVE hitting the side of the bombard dinghy was enough to break the outboard motor mount's pivot pin, so that I got to grab it before it went to the bottom (still running, no less) and so compressed the pontoon on that side that it blew off a patch that had been professionally fitted by Zodiac (it actually blew a small section of seam near the floor join too).
That kind of weather.
I can say with great sincerity, I love my SARCA anchor, I really really do!
Alex.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 25, 2007, 02:56:04 PM
I am well aware of that RTBates... that's why I have a 15 KG Rocna as a primary anchor, now with 75' of 5/16" chain and 150' of 5/8" three-strand as a rode. My secondary is currently a 12 or 13 lb. Danforth with 15' of 5/16" chain and 100' of 5/8" three-strand for a rode. After some thought, I am planning on getting a 22 lb. Delta as a new secondary and using the Danforth as a stern anchor. :D
GOOD DEAL!!
Tehani's bow set up.. 22 pound Claw, 75 feet of 1/4 G4 chain, 200 feet 1/2 inch 3 strand nylon
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1190848000.jpg)
Two 10 inch Herreshoff bronze cleats. Snubber is 25 feet of 1/2 nylon and a chain hook.
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1190848043.jpg)
Backed up with a 12 pound Hi-tensile Danforth, 25 feet of 1/4 G4 and 200 feet of 1/2 nylon. Anchor stowed in cockpit locker, rode stowed under cockpit floor.
Also aboard when we cruise- a 15 pound folding Northill, 25 feet of chain for that and another 200 feet of nylon, only this time it's 5/8ths.
We also always have a 4 pound Danforth, 6 feet of chain and 50 feet of 3/8 nylon. we use that as a "Locator" anchor. To stop a swing, position the boat to ride a swell, etc- NOT to anchor on.
???
Have not stopped by in awhile and am pleased to see so much traffic on the site!
I am getting married and as a result the boat (Andunge) is undergoing transformation from a good boat to an even better boat with the plan of traversing the globe with two hands on board.
As such, everything is being evaluated and changed.
Currently, the anchor system consists of around 120' of standard proof coil 5/16" chain with around 1000' attached line with a masively oversized claw set on the roller.
We would like to go to 200 feet of high test with perhaps 300 feet of line going to an xyz anchor (mainly becasue Andunge is such a light boat and the appeal of a 13 pound anchor is intriguing) or the heavier super max anchor put out by the same company. Ideally, I would like to carry these two anchors and nothing else. It that a foolish dream?
Obvioulsy, an anchor that can anchor in more conditions means we don't have to carry the second, third, or fourth anchors anymore, instead opting for the main anchor and a secondary that can be deployed off the stern, in a 'V' off the bow, or in crappy conditions.
Does anyone have experience with either of these anchors and if we carried both types would we seem covered.
I have lots of prior experience anchoring with the standards (cqr, plow, danfourth, claw, fortress,fisherman) but know nothing of these newcommers.
I would love to be able to have superior holding with less scope and overall weight (duh-as I am sure we all would) as well as having an anchor that can hold in all bottoms. The manufactuer claims this to be the case but I am leary. I have read other official reviews of these anchors but would like to know what the real cruisers out there have found out.
Andunge is a 22' Westerly Nomad with around 6000 pounds displacement loaded. I might add that she is enginless so all anchoring is done under sail or oar power. Storage for the anchors or the rode is not a problem but we want minimal weight to make room for other provisions.
Thanks a million!!!!
(http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_18553995/4727/__sr_/98de.jpg?grQ2_BHBOWXtcTcJ)
Congratulations. :D
Unfortunately, weight is often key to helping the anchor set properly. Anchor weight is often an important factor, especially if you manage to pull the anchor free, since a light anchor with large fluke area can often have trouble re-setting.
If the boat has dragged and has any speed, the large flukes can cause the lighter anchors to "kite" preventing them from having any chance of resetting. This has happened to me with a Danforth, which is why my Danforth is a stern anchor and not a primary. Of course, this may be more of a problem with a light boat with a lot of windage, as my trimaran has, than it would with Andunge.
The next generation anchors are pretty good. I use a 15 kg Rocna as the primary anchor on my boat, and I've found it is pretty good under most conditions. You can see more about them at their website (http://www.rocna.com).
I am currently using 75' of 5/16" G40 high-test chain and 200' of 5/8" three-strand nylon rode.
What is the draft on your boat?? While the Pacific does have some deep anchorages, do you really need 500' of rode? At 5:1 you could be anchoring in water 100' deep.
BTW, I would highly recommend carrying at least three anchors if you're cruising long-term. Chances are good that at some point you're going to have to abandon one, if only temporarily, for some reason.
I'd recommend the Rocna, Buegel, Spade or Manson Supreme over the XYZ or Super Max, since these will also stow on an anchor roller much more readily than the larger fluke/blade designs fo rhe XYZ or Super Max.
If you have any specific questions, please feel free to PM me... I hope this helps.
Congratulations!!! I am so happ y for you, now take care of each other.
Re your question, i coukd only second what AdriftatSea said in the previous post.
Good Luck to you, might see you on the water some day...
Interesting. I am giving some thought now to anchors. I have been almost always dock to dock. As I think now about being out more. I am looking at anchors. Currently I have a Danforth. I have a buy on a 16.5 (real) Bruce, which I am told is good for this area or as a second anchor. I'm thinking of getting that as my stern cruising anchor and later going for the Rocna, ( or the like) as a prime. The lil promo film seems impressive. I figure, with those 2 and the Danforth (or 2) as a spare I should be good. There is a guy at the Marine flea market, who I brought a sea anchor from said, "I carry 6 anchors when i go to Hawaii ( same size boat as mine). At flea market prices, it its worth it." He was not selling one just telling me about the ones next to him for sale. Showed me the difference in Danforths. He said the copies are good paper weights :D
Some thoughts on Danforths , copies and other anchoring thoughts from a long time cruiser with several years of anchoring out experience..
First, the danforths are great anchors- in their place, which isn't every where. Some of the danforth copies are ALSO good anchors, one of which is the Hooker brand. Both are well made and set properly.
The danforth type with the sliding ring that supposedly allows the anchor to be pulled up easily I will not allow on my boats. As far as I'm concerned they are a fishing boat anchor and worthless on a cruising boat. And unsafe.
BUT
There are limitations to Danforth style anchors- Deep grass is one of them. Shell is another. AND personally I would NEVER trust my boat to a single Danforth style in a reversing tidal situation. They do not reliably reset.
Let me restate that-
on a reversing current situation, a Danforth DOES NOT RELIABLY RESET!!
If you are using danforth ( lets call them "fluke" style from now on) anchors and the tide is gonna change DO USE two of them- preferably in a Bahama Moor. I've seen fluke style anchors come up with mud wedged into the flukes so they could not flip down, therefore the anchor jsut slid across the bottom with zero chance of setting. I've also seen them come up with an oyster shell or beer can with the same results.
On the other hand they are terrific anchors in sand or a sand mud bottom. I've actually laid over night to a 4 pounder we had out to stop a swing. The wind shifted and we were riding to the tiny anchor ( the main one was still set) I almost had to abandon that anchor cause it was set so well..
Plow style anchors such as the CQR's and other fluke styles as the Bruce and Claw, or the unfortunately not available any longer, Northill will reset, usually reliably, but not always. If I had to choose a single anchor to lie to it would be one of those. I have no experience with the newer generation of anchors so can't speak for them.
The Northill is also not a good anchor to lie to single in a reversing current. It has a fluke that sticks up above the bottom that the rode can wrap around and pull the anchor when the pull switches. It IS however an excellent anchor in heavy grass , oyster shell reefs, or rocky bottoms.
Aboard our boat, and aboard my trimaran, which I lived aboard for 3 years and cruised from Annaoplis to the keys and back , and over to the Texas coast we carry different styles, for different situations. If it's nice thick mud or good sand, use any of them. If it's grass, or shell, or rocky, switch to another style. Sometimes we had to try one or two before we found one that would hold.
On the trimaran we went the full last year of cruising without ever touching a dock- ALWAYS on our own anchors.
You simply cannot rely on a single type of anchor to hold everywhere. If you are gonna travel, bit e the bullet and get a variety, good chain and rode and learn to use them. And carry several- cause you just may have to abandon one somewhere sometime at 0200 getting the heck outta dodge!! I had to cut and run one time. We were able to go back the next day and get the anchor- but at the time it wasn't real important.
Oh - and the right size is one that is JUST lighter than you can haul back off the bottom ;D
On Tehani our main anchor is a 22 pound Claw with 75 feet of G4 1/4 inch chain, backed up with 200 feet of 1/2 nylon. That's about the largest anchor Laura can haul back by herself. If she could do more, I'd go up one more size ;D We also carry a Northill and 2 different sizes of Danforths- a Hi tensile 12 and that 4 pounder, each with appropriate rodes.
Good solid anchors, with good solid rodes, and the knowledge to use them, are the very best hull insurance money you'll ever spend.
I think the best low cost anchor is the Delta, based on reviews and chatter on the net. However I do not have one, I have a 35lb CQR, a 22lb Claw and two 15?lb Danforth copies. There may be another anchor buried in there somewhere too. I have at least two sets of 150' rodes spliced to 50' 1/4 high strength chain and also one or two extra rodes. There is also some misc chain lengths as well. This is for a 28 foot Tanzer.
Usually I use the claw because the CQR is hard to haul in. It would be nice to have one of the new generation anchor$, maybe I will get one eventually.
A good anchor really helps you to sleep well.
I would agree that the Danforth isn't really a good choice if the wind or tide is going to shift. I have a 14 lb. Danforth that came with the boat, and I use it as a stern or kedge anchor. It is on 6" of 1/4" chain and 100" of 1/2" nylon, where the primary is on 75' of 5/16" G4 and 200' of 5/8" nylon.
I agree that having a few different types of anchors makes far more sense than having several anchors of the same type. Think about it, if a 10 lb. Danforth doesnt' set, it isn't all that likely that 22 lb. version will set either.
For my third anchor, I am planning on getting a 22 lb. Delta Fastset. It will be on 30' of 5/16" G4 chain with 150' of 5/8" nylon for a rode. IMHO, it is a good compromise between weight and holding ability. The main problem I see with having a 22 lb. Delta on-board is stowing it. It doesn't collapse or disassemble.
One other point I'd make is that a properly sized primary anchor should hold you even in fairly heavy conditions. If you're having to resort to tandem anchoring more than 10% of the time, you need to get bigger anchors.
It always amazes me at how people will spend thousands on the toys for their boats, but skimp on what is probably one of the most important things IMHO. Ground tackle, relatively speaking, isn't all the expensive an investment. A 22 lb. Delta, brand new is about $155 at defender.com. The rode, 30' of G-4 High-test chain and 170' of 5/8" three-strand nylon is only $200 or so. The swivel is another $35. So for $400, you can have a good night's sleep and cheap insurance against dragging.
I'm a huge fan of new generation anchors. I have a Rocna (big fan) and have personal experience with Spade (big fan). Compared to the other anchors I have used (CQR, Delta, Danforth, Fortress, and Bruce) there is really no comparison. YMMV, and my opinions are my own.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on October 04, 2007, 10:05:53 AM
If you're having to resort to tandem anchoring more than 10% of the time, you need to get bigger anchors.
I have to disagree with this statement on its face. Perhaps it is a matter of philosophy, but I don't necessarily think it is a matter of "resorting" to more than one anchor.
Seamanship is about prudence in solving problems, not following formulae in books. If I can get the same security for my boat with two or even three, but they are small enough that other members of my crew can heave them aboard, what's the difference?
Two (Bahamian Moor) or Three (star) anchors may take longer to set and recover but are just as secure and can be MUCH lighter than one big honking anchor that is hard to handle. Plus, you have FAR less swinging room requirement which can be a huge plus in a crowded or small anchorage.
All that said, I 100% agee with CJ with the notion "just lighter than the biggest you can handle," but even then, there will be times that two (or three) anchors will be needed that have nothing to do with the primary being too small. And depending upon where you are cruising, that could be 100% of the time.
My two cents on that.
Laura, you mentioned a desire for using less scope. Even the new anchors require 'proper' scope to set and hold properly from everything that I've read, though 'proper' seems to be trending toward 5:1 (with chain+nylon) these days, at least in moderate conditions. If swinging room is the motivation to 'reduce scope,' I'd probably use muliple anchors with proper total scope rather than shortening scope on a single no matter what wiz-bang new hot shot anchor it is. But that's just me and of course, each situation is different.
As always, YMMV, and fair winds.
--John
Now I may be all wet here, but I assumed his reference to "tandem anchoring" was meant for two anchors on one rode- one set, chain from it shackled to the next, who's rode led to the boat.
I don't think he was referring to setups like the Bahama Moor or the Vee set, which are pretty standard practices and are meant for specific situations.
I used the Bahama Moor quite frequently on the east coast, with it's fast currents due to serious tidal ranges- 5 to 7 feet or more over a 6 hour period. Any time you anchor for over night you're gonna see at least one and maybe two tide changes.
Here on the Texas coast with our normal 6 to 8 inches of tidal change, over a 12 hour period at that, we seldom use two, preferring to set the Claw, lay out enough chain and relax cause it will be a while before the tide change.
Oh- and when Laura was on her single hand trip, she was anchoring to ALL the chain, thinking we had 50 feet- she found out while almost done with the trip that there's 75 feet stowed up there. So she was usually laying to something like 10 to 1. :D
Which brings up another point- in many spots popular with the cruising fleet, you aren't gonna get more than 5 - 1 scope. You're gonna be very lucky to be able to get 3-1. So you need gear that will hold on less, just because there's no rooom to lay out more.
Also, if you come into an anchorage and every one is laying to a Bahama Moor, you'd BETTER do the same or they will NOT be happy when you foul other boats on tide swings. Same goes for places where they normally anchor to one anchor- again, you need to match that, or your boat will swing differently and foul up a bunch of other boats. Annapolis off the Naval Academy comes to mind.
Quote from: CharlieJ on October 04, 2007, 02:14:30 PM
Now I may be all wet here, but I assumed his reference to "tandem anchoring" was meant for two anchors on one rode- one set, chain from it shackled to the next, who's rode led to the boat.
I don't think he was referring to setups like the Bahama Moor or the Vee set, which are pretty standard practices and are meant for specific situations.
Yeah - that's probably what he meant.
But....are there really a LOT of people, ie cruisers, out there anchoring in tandem in order to use undersized gear? A daysailor or power boat that does not really anchor that often is one thing, but I'd assume (I know, I know) that most cruising sailors would know better.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 04, 2007, 02:32:37 PM
[ but I'd assume (I know, I know) that most cruising sailors would know better.
One would certainly HOPE so, but in many many nights aboard, I have seen some real lulus of anchoring attempts, both on power AND on sail.
Charlie and I are usually in agreement on anchoring. I feel it is THEE most important part of cruising.I spend close to 4 months a year 'on the hook' and can say that both your best and worst times while cruising are at anchor.Nothing beats a beautiful night spent sipping wine in the cockpit after a meal and then turning in listening to water lapping on the hull. Some of those very nights turn into night mares at 3 am when the wind comes up at 25+ knots and shifts 180%. Your boat is your home out there and your anchor IS your security. I love Charlie's phrase "as big as you can haul up"....on those nights you will be glad for the overkill. An after thought possibly worthy of another thread is "what else". In my book, a proper dodger and easily reefed sails are the next 2. PS...the most entertaining 'husband-wife bonding moments' are seen either anchoring or docking ;D
Capn Smollett-
By tandem anchoring I meant two anchors on a single rode—not a Bahamian moor or three-anchor storm setups, which have distinct and very specific uses.
One major problem with tandem anchoring is getting both anchors set properly... Another is the problems you can run into retrieving the tandem anchor setup. A third is that the two anchors can foul each other if the tide or wind swings enough to pull the closer anchor out and it drags towards the terminal end anchor.
I'm curious, with the talk of tandem anchoring and short scope if anyone has anchored using a kellet (which, if I have my terminology right is a weighted object lowered partway down the rode to make the pull on the anchor more horizontal). I've seen advertisements for specially designed kellets; but I have a thought...
Scenario: you pull into a moderately crowded anchorage at the end of the day and the best you can do is anchor at 5:1 scope in 15 feet of water. Let's assume you have at least 50' of chain (which seems like a really good idea to me as 50' isn't all that heavy and would seem to be much better than the six feet or so which is becoming common) so you are anchoring to all the chain plus 25' of nylon. Why not shackle a second anchor at the high end of the chain, not so much to dig in and help hold mechanically, but instead to help the primary anchor set better? Since most of us carry extra anchors this seems like a cheap way to increase holding.
A couple possible problems exist, of course. It may be possible for the "kellet" anchor to snag the chain rode or anchor during a tide change. I guess this would depend largely on the tidal range; but it seems to me that attaching it 2/3s up the rode would prevent this from being troublesome in most cases.
The second is that it could be difficult to set and retrieve. To set, I think the best bet might be to set to a single anchor as normal, then once set pull in the rode until you get to the 2/3 range and then shackle on the anchor before letting out 5:1 scope. To retrieve the biggest issue is probably going to be avoiding dinging your hull as you hang over the bow to unshackle the anchor (not to mention the care necessary to not drop it overboard). I think technique could be worked out to reliably answer these questions.
And last, how would things work in varying depths? For instance, given the same scenario but in 25 feet of water and 125' of scope necessary for the 5:1 scope (note that I am simplifying things intentionally here by not trying to factor in freeboard... the prudent seaman would naturally add the freeboard to the water depth), the "kellet" anchor would be at the 40% line instead of the 66% line. Given a decent tidal drop this may allow the kellet to actually set or snag a line during a tidal swing.
Maybe a ten or fifteen pound mushroom would be a better non snagging, non digging in choice; plus it can double for a dinghy.
Just thinking...
First, before anything else, your figures are wrong for how much rode you need to put out. A common error is not taking into consideration your heigth of bow over water. THAT is most definitely a part of water depth and MUST be considered when anchoring , as part of the needed scope. So on board Tehani, in your scenario we'd be thinking 18 feet of water, times 5 = 90 feet of rode. Makes a big difference.
Now that I've picked that nit,
Yes, that's exactly what a "kellet" is and how it works. An old old idea that still works very well. And it's a quite useful thing. We don't have one aboard, but when we leave for longer cruising, we will.
Your idea would work of course, but it's more complicated than just using a proper kellet.
The beauty of a kellet is that you can adjust the set of the kellet without changing or messing with the anchor rode. So you could put it on the rode and lower it at 0200 without having to haul in rode if it bacame needed. They are rigged with a light line that you let out as needed to adjust where the kellet rides.
You idea is certainly workable, but Id rather be able to add without moving the boat.
Oh- and onboard Tehani we have 75 feet of chain on the main anchor- I'd love to add more and I will as soon as I can find a chain connector rated for G4 chain. All I can find so far is rated for normal chain which has much less safe working load. I also carry additional lengths to be added and or used as needed. I'd never consider anchoring with less than a boatlength of chain anyway.
And when anchoring with all chain, a 5-1 scope is pretty much considered normal.
And in several years of living aboard, mostly on our own anchors, and anchoring everywhere from Annapolis down to Dry Tortugas, and around to the Texas coast, I've never yet felt the need for tandem anchoring. In my opinion you should have large enough anchors to not need that, except in very unusual circumstances. But of course, that's just me and my boat. Your mileage may vary :D
Quote from: CharlieJ on October 06, 2007, 03:11:45 PMFirst, before anything else, your figures are wrong for how much rode you need to put out. A common error is not taking into consideration your heigth of bow over water. THAT is most definitely a part of water depth and MUST be considered when anchoring , as part of the needed scope. So on board Tehani, in your scenario we'd be thinking 18 feet of water, times 5 = 90 feet of rode. Makes a big difference.
Just to protect my somewhat dubious honor a tiny bit...
Quote from: s/v godot on October 06, 2007, 12:31:41 PM...(note that I am simplifying things intentionally here by not trying to factor in freeboard... the prudent seaman would naturally add the freeboard to the water depth)...
Now I've never used a kellet before, and frankly I don't have anywhere near your sailing experience; but I rarely hear them mentioned and I was looking for a way to get the benefit using existing gear.
Since reading your post I did start looking for a "proper" kellet for sale without much luck. Perhaps they aren't sold that way or they are sold under a different name (like sentinel). I did run across Rocna's page on kellets (http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/kellets.php) which claims they aren't quite as effective at increasing holding as I was led to believe. I don't know. They are trying to sell their anchors, after all. Oh, well.
OOPS- sorry. TOTALLY missed that line about free board. My bad!!
And yep- the term "sentinel" is also used, probably the more modern usage.
And Rochna's may be a really good anchor, but I do think Craig "doth protesteth too much" in his continually bashing of other anchors. It gets really tiresome and they are extremely expensive compared to even other of the newer generation of anchors.
I just happened on this article from Ocean Navigator on anchoring- I found it interesting, so might every one else.
http://www.tmca.nu/links.and.features/anchor.htm
Good read.Thanks Charlie
I see some problems with this...
First, kellets, while effective in light winds, really don't help in heavy wind conditions, where you really need to maximize holding power. In storm conditions or even just heavy wind conditions, the rode will be fairly taught...and unless the kellet is exceptionally heavy, it will have little or no effect on the angle of the rode pulling on the anchor. In light winds, they do allow you to anchor on relatively short scope and reduce your swinging circle. However, when the wind picks up... you'll really need to let out additional rode and increase the scope.
Second, using an anchor as a "kellet" at the top end of the chain will expose the rope to much more chafe against obstacles on the bottom. If there are any abrasive or sharp objects on the bottom, like coral heads, rocks or man-made objects, the nylon may be damaged enough to part under storm conditions. If the nylon is connected to the chain, chances are that the nylon and the catenary curve may be enough to allow the chain to take the abrasion and chafe underwater, rather than the much less chafe resistant nylon portion of th rode.
Third, the "kellet" anchor isn't adjustable in position, which negates a big advantage of using a kellet in light winds.
Finally, the "kellet" anchor may not help the primary anchor set better. If the "kellet" anchor sets in a shorter distance than the primary anchor, the primary anchor may remain just sitting on the bottom, rather than being properly set. This means that you're effectively being held by just the kellet anchor, rather than the primary anchor, which is presumably larger and of a more effective holding design. If you swing, rather than drag, you may foul the primary anchor and leave your boat either dragging or held by just the smaller kellet anchor.
IMHO, the best option is to get a larger primary anchor, that is heavy enough for even storm conditions and is of a design that will set in most bottom conditions and reset fairly quickly if it does pull free.
One other thing, some anchors are designed to set with only a very small amount of chain, and having more chain on the rode with them can reduce their ability to set properly. This is the case with the Fortress anchors IIRC. While some anchors are bothered by additional chain, most of the next generation designs, like the Rocna (which I have), the Manson Supreme, the Buegel, the Bulwagga and the Spade aren't bothered and having at least a boat length of chain makes much more sense IMHO.
Most of the boats used by people on this forum can anchor in relatively shallow waters, being in smaller boats, and due to the reduced draft and reduced depth requirements, can use a shorter rode than larger boats might require.
I have 75' of chain on my primary anchor and can anchor at 5:1 scope on basically all chain in 13' of water. My board-up draft is 14"... which means I have 11'+ of water beneath my keel... and the tidal range in generally only about 4-5' in my neck of the woods.
BTW, my observation from using the Rocna for over a season is that it sets very hard and very quickly. To give you an idea of how it sets... when I am backing the boat to set the anchor, it will often pull the anchor line line through the gypsy before I get a chance to throttle the engine down. I've also never been able to pull it up without using the boat's motion to break it free...and it comes up with about 20-30 lbs. of the bottom with it every time.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: s/v godot on October 06, 2007, 12:31:41 PM
I'm curious, with the talk of tandem anchoring and short scope if anyone has anchored using a kellet (which, if I have my terminology right is a weighted object lowered partway down the rode to make the pull on the anchor more horizontal). I've seen advertisements for specially designed kellets; but I have a thought...
Scenario: you pull into a moderately crowded anchorage at the end of the day and the best you can do is anchor at 5:1 scope in 15 feet of water. Let's assume you have at least 50' of chain (which seems like a really good idea to me as 50' isn't all that heavy and would seem to be much better than the six feet or so which is becoming common) so you are anchoring to all the chain plus 25' of nylon. Why not shackle a second anchor at the high end of the chain, not so much to dig in and help hold mechanically, but instead to help the primary anchor set better? Since most of us carry extra anchors this seems like a cheap way to increase holding.
A couple possible problems exist, of course. It may be possible for the "kellet" anchor to snag the chain rode or anchor during a tide change. I guess this would depend largely on the tidal range; but it seems to me that attaching it 2/3s up the rode would prevent this from being troublesome in most cases.
The second is that it could be difficult to set and retrieve. To set, I think the best bet might be to set to a single anchor as normal, then once set pull in the rode until you get to the 2/3 range and then shackle on the anchor before letting out 5:1 scope. To retrieve the biggest issue is probably going to be avoiding dinging your hull as you hang over the bow to unshackle the anchor (not to mention the care necessary to not drop it overboard). I think technique could be worked out to reliably answer these questions.
And last, how would things work in varying depths? For instance, given the same scenario but in 25 feet of water and 125' of scope necessary for the 5:1 scope (note that I am simplifying things intentionally here by not trying to factor in freeboard... the prudent seaman would naturally add the freeboard to the water depth), the "kellet" anchor would be at the 40% line instead of the 66% line. Given a decent tidal drop this may allow the kellet to actually set or snag a line during a tidal swing.
Maybe a ten or fifteen pound mushroom would be a better non snagging, non digging in choice; plus it can double for a dinghy.
Just thinking...
While we are in a marina tonight, we have spent many nights over the last few months sleeping on our Manson Supreme. My experience is much like Dan has posted with his Rocna. The last two nights were in the anchorage in Titusville, where we picked a spot close in to the dingy dock so I did not have far to go. I was surprised to find the spot open since it was so good.
In talking to a couple on a bigger Irwin, they said it was because so many boats have anchored there the bottom is 'scrubbed'. They anchored there the first night they arrived (they have now been there over 2 months) and they drug in light winds only stopping when the 'auxillary anchor' * dug in close to the bank.
* the keel.
The Manson Supreme has set and held fast, and consistently.
WRT tandem anchoring I think it is a sound practice, and it is my intended storm tactic. Harold Grant, who we met at the Barefoot Landing marina has cruised and lived aboard for over 20 years. His was the ONLY boat that held through hurricane Andrew, (I forget the location but I seem to remember him saying over 100 boats were lost in the location he was) and he wrote it for cruising world..? or was that the magazine? I forget. Anyways, that was back in the early 90's but his 'tandem' was a CQR, chained to not one, but 2 Danforths. The CQR was closest to the boat since it was best able to reset.
I believe that there are many good options WRT anchoring, and there is likely no agreement in what is 'Best'. I do believe that like many aspects of good seamanship, everyone has to consider and choose their own configuration. I will say that it is probably best to avoid listening to marketing, and market driven articles in magazines.
Dan's comments;
Not too surprising, considering that the Manson Supreme and the Rocna are very similar in design.
There is a pretty interesting article on tandem anchoring on the Rocna website. You can read it here (http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php).
However, I still stand by my belief that if you're having to tandem anchor more than 10% of the time, chances are very good that your primary anchor is just too darn small.
Dan said;
QuoteHowever, I still stand by my belief that if you're having to tandem anchor more than 10% of the time, chances are very good that your primary anchor is just too darn small.
I agree. I will add that if your cruising area requires you to need to use your storm rode more then 10% of the time you need to find yourself a better cruising area. ;D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Got THAT right!!!!
No argument from me... ;)
Quote from: s/v Faith on October 12, 2007, 05:22:18 PM
I agree. I will add that if your cruising area requires you to need to use your storm rode more then 10% of the time you need to find yourself a better cruising area. ;D
Quote from: CharlieJ on October 04, 2007, 03:19:00 PM
Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 04, 2007, 02:32:37 PM
[ but I'd assume (I know, I know) that most cruising sailors would know better.
One would certainly HOPE so, but in many many nights aboard, I have seen some real lulus of anchoring attempts, both on power AND on sail.
and
Quote from: CharlieJ
I've never yet felt the need for tandem anchoring. In my opinion you should have large enough anchors to not need that
Okey, dokey. Well, while on our trip to Charleston this past week, we met a fellow named Jerry on his Cataline 30. He's been cruising 22 months - left California, down the coast to Panama, across The Canal, then up to Florida.
We saw him pull his anchors - tandem anchors - and they were TINY. They looked to be about 8 lb Danforths. I cringed when I saw them, and the second thing I thought when I saw them was CJ's adjective quoted above.
The FIRST thing I thought was I am sure glad he asked us to move when we started to drop the hook behind him...glad that we moved to a different spot on the anchorage, no where near his boat.
By the way, the Manson grabbed quick and held fast on the entire trip. Three days on the hook at the City Anchorage (with 4 kt currents), a few hours out by Ft. Sumter (in the sea swell making it through the jetties), one night at the mouth of Shem Creek and a few hours in the ICW current just North of Bulls Bay. She's a beast to pull in (especially when tired), but as an anchor worth every penny.
I have a Super Max 12. This is an 18 pound anchor and requires 4 to 6 inch bow roller clearance. This anchor holds and resets well. I have a 50 hp on my Mac and I can set it at 4200 RPM's with 3:1 all chain scope without dragging. If the bottom cannot hold this I MOVE. The 13 pound fluke would pull up at 2500 RPM's at 8:1 scope.
Buy 2 of these and you will sleep better.
Don't forget the dingy anchor.
I did, and regret it. I want one of those little folding 'grapel' anchors for the dink. I am using a 5# dive weight right now, not such a good substitute. The little 4# danforth here is over $25 and not too friendly to an inflateable.
Going ashore on a rocky bank it is good to hold the raft off a bit, as well as coming along a dock with lots of nail heads. Not to mention the idea of being swept out to sea if the motor dies and one can not row against the current.....
Craig -
Idea: look for a monster-sized treble hook for fishing or gigging, file the points a bit, attach to your dive weight. :)
Well, OK... maybe several in a row? ;D
Maybe Connie can get you one stateside, and bring it over? I think she is heading back next Tuesday.
I think the monster treble hooks would be even less inflatable friendly than the 4# danforth. :)
Quote from: Lynx on January 09, 2008, 04:15:39 PMget a bigger anchor and 50 feet of chain, a few guides and take off.
How big of an anchor does my CP19 need? Do I determine anchor size by weight? Loaded I'm probably less than 3500 lbs.
On our 21 footer I carried a 16 pound Bruce with 29 feet of chain then nylon. Something around that size should do fine for your Compac. Backup was a 9 pound Super Hooker, with another 25 feet chain and 200 feet of nylon
On Tehani on the bow we carry a 22 pound Claw and 75 feet of chain, then nylon- we figure her loaded displacement at 7000-7500 pounds or so
But another point- when we are away from here, we carry four anchors and four rodes.
The 22 pounder on the bow, chain and rode
A 12 pound Hi tensile Danforth, with 25 feet of chain, 200 feet of nylon
A 16 pound folding Northill, with 25 feet of chain and 150 feet of nylon.
Then we carry a tiny 4 pound Danforth with a couple of feet of chain and 50 feet of 3/8s. That's to stop swinging, position the boat into the wind, etc.
We also carry spare chain and another 150 feet of nylon, just as extras
For cruising here, we leave the Northill at home.
Note that that gives us 3 distinct TYPES of anchors- no anchor will work in EVERY bottom, so you need a couple of varieties, just in case. For example, a Danforth is a great anchor, but not in grass or weed, and I would NEVER sleep anchored to a single Danforth- I do NOT trust them to reset always.
Others know this, but a little background for you. I lived aboard a 35 foot trimaran for several years, and cruised the coast from Annapolis, Maryland around to Galveston, Texas. The last year I lived on the boat she never touched a dock- we were ALWAYS on our own anchors From Jax Florida down into the Keys and then around to here.
So my next anchor should be a different type!
I have two Danforth anchors, a 13 and an 8. No chain.
How do you deal with chain? Do you have a big enough hole in the deck that you can reach in? Oh, I suppose once you get the chain started, it will flow into the locker by itself. I could see that. Keeping the rode from tangling in the locker would be a problem. I always have my rode coiled on deck, but with a chain I can't do that.
Now I'm anchor shopping! I can't wait for the All Sail Show in Chicago!
Danforth type anchors have pretty good holding power, but don't reset well if the current or wind shifts.
When you're looking for a new anchor, I'd recommend getting one of the "next generation" designs, like the Rocna, Manson Supreme, Spade, or Buegel. These have pretty good setting characteristics and work over a wide range of bottom conditions.
Personally, I have a Rocna, and I've never seen an anchor that sets quite so quickly or well. Earlier this summer, I nearly dumped a crewmember off the front of the boat while backing the boat down to set the anchor. The only major problem with it, is that it tends to bring up about 20-30 lbs. of bottom with it.
LostLake - On my CP-23 I had a 9# Bulwagga (http://"www.noteco.com/bulwagga/") that, though designed for use in rock and weed, worked extremely well for me in the sand/mud/oysters bottom that is typical around here. Another link, with pics. (http://"http://www.navstore.com/bulwagga.aspx")
It worked so well, I plan on getting the 17#'er for this boat eventually, for use as my bowser.
Right now I have 2 Fortress anchors (Fx7 and Fx16, I think they're called, 4 lbs and 12 lb (?) respectively, IIRC), and a folding 10 lb Northill. The Fx7 is the "recommended" model for a boat this size (5120# displacement), the Fx16 is suited for boats 10' longer, and that overkill is just fine for me. Like CJ, I prefer a plethora of anchors of different types. :) Anchors and chain are cheap insurance.
It's rare in my experience that rode tangles in the anchor locker. When I've had it happen, shaking the rode has usually loosened it up enough that the tangle fell out. I keep a 30' minimum length of chain on the anchor end of my rode, and anchor shallow.
IIRC, there are a couple good anchor threads on this board where there is quite a bit of discussion on different brands/types of anchors that we use(d) on our 'smaller' boats. Worth a Search, for sure. :)
There is a *huge* thread at the Pearson Ariel site on anchors (http://"http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1295"), if you want to do more research before plunking down the boatbux.
OK- on the chain /nylon and getting it below decks.
I use a 1 1/2 inch deck pipe, which I posted a pic of in a thread here showing anchor rollers. My nylon rode is connected to the chain with a chain splice instead of a shackle- I prefer that because it will feed through a smaller pipe. I've used that set up on several boats now, with good results. WEST Marine sells chain/nylon anchor lines done this way by the way if you don't feel up to doing a back splice.
When the rode goes below it flakes itself, with the chain winding up in the middle. Here's a shot of our previous boat with the door to the anchor rode locker taken off so you can see it. There was NO rearranging done- that's how it went into the locker through the deck pipe, all on it's own.
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1200001351.jpg)
Cool! That is a nice picture!
That's why I have 15 kg Rocna as my primary anchor. :) 75' of 5/16" G4 chain, and 5/8" nylon three-strand for the rode. :)
Personally, I like my boat to stay where I put it... then move when I want it to. :)
CapnSmollet-
A 8 lb. anchor??? That sounds like a dinghy anchor. Which boat do you have the 8 lb. anchor on???
18 foot 1350 lb boat. It's oversize for that boat.
I'd agree.. :) Given which boats you have, I was just curious...didn't think you had it for your Alberg 30... :)
LOL, no. But hey, one of the PO's of the Alberg 30 did think a 13 lb Danforth was a good size for that boat. I almost cried. ;D
LOL... that's the size of the anchor that came with my boat... not quite as good at giving a good night's sleep as a 33 lb. Rocna. :) It's a good lunch hook, and not a bad kedge...but definitely not bower anchor material.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 24, 2008, 11:16:48 PM
LOL, no. But hey, one of the PO's of the Alberg 30 did think a 13 lb Danforth was a good size for that boat. I almost cried. ;D
Cmdr Pete—
I don't think it really matters which side you lead the line off, since both are so close to the bow as not to really make a difference. If you're a righty, you'll probably use the starboard side chock, since that is the easier side to work on... and if you're a southpaw, the port side. However, your furling line's location would lead me to want to use the port side chocks regardless of handedness, since you don't have to worry about chafe on the furling line and such on the port side. :)
well, a 12 pound HT Danforth ( with 25 feet of chain) is what we carry on Tehani- a small 25 footer. I HAVE a pair of 20HT's but they simply will not fit anywhere aboard unless I stow them in the Vee berth and Laura would gripe about sleeping with that. So would I for that matter- she's lots nicer to snuggle with ;D
Our bower is a 22 pound Claw with 75 feet of chain and nylon. OUr third anchor is a 15 lb folding Northill.
But the 12 is a very good size or OUR boat. I sure wouldn't use it on the 30, other than as a lunch hook, or to adjust a swing. We use a 4 lb Danforth as a swing adjuster.
Quote from: CharlieJ on February 25, 2008, 01:42:12 PM
But the 12 is a very good size or OUR boat. I sure wouldn't use it on the 30, other than as a lunch hook, or to adjust a swing. We use a 4 lb Danforth as a swing adjuster.
I keep it in a cockpit locker with a hunk of line; I've used it for a quick "brake" when I ran out of gas on the ob and had to swap cans quickly and as a kedge while aground.
The boat actually came with two of these; I gave one away and figured it won't hurt anything to keep t'other. It makes a good #4 for light duty.
I'm actually looking at getting a 22 lb. Delta for the kedge on my boat, and then keeping the Danforth as a #3 anchor, primarily for use off the stern.
I posted this update on the Manson on the SSCA forum the other day, thought I would share it here too (it is true now too that we are once again swinging on the manson as I type this.....)
QuoteWe are swinging on our Manson Supreme (#25, with 55' of 5/16ht) as I type this. I have had this anchor for ~ 2 years now and have had nothing but excellent experience with it.
The Manson Supreme is the one Rocna copied*, virtually identical but with a slot added to the shank to assist in recovery from coral (I have never used the slot).
Before we moved aboard we used it for a year in weekending and short trips on the East coast. We moved aboard July 07 and have cruised over 2200 miles down the ICW from NC and then to the Abacos, out islands, Exumas, Berrys, Bimini, and now across Florida with not a single incident of dragging or failing to set. We rode out Hurricane Noel, and while we also had our Fortress out we rode the Manson through 90% of the winds and it held safely.
I dove the anchor many times in the Bahamas, and observed that it set nicely even in a variety of bottom types. We spent many nights in areas listed on the Explorer charts as 'fair' or 'poor' holding and had no trouble.
I like the light weight Fortress as a lunch hook, and carried a larger Fortress as a storm hook but have had wonderful experience with the Manson.
OBTW, there is some marketing bunk out there about trouble with the shank fitting bow rollers. My #25 CQR with it's big knuckle was more trouble to stow then the Manson which would self stow nicely.
To read more about our experience here is a link to the thread on the SailFar.netsite.
I looked at the rocna and the Manson and at the time I looked the price difference was considerable. I understand the rocna is now less expensive but would still stick with the Manson if I were to buy again.
* or copied from the Rocna depending on who's marketing you believe.
_________________
http://sailfar.net .......
For Sailors of Small boats, who sail long distances.
My friend Ron has both the Manson Supreme and the Rocna... and he says the Rocna holds better...and AFAIK, the Manson Supreme is a copy of the Rocna... that's actually a common marketing strategy for Manson, since many of their other anchors are copies as well.
Yes, the Rocna is a bit more expensive... but now that WM is carrying it, at least you don't have to get clobbered by the freight charges.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 27, 2008, 03:51:12 PM
My friend Ron has both the Manson Supreme and the Rocna... and he says the Rocna holds better...
User GMAC on SSCA (who sells anchors, and has done so for several years) evaluated boat on his boat for 4-5 months and found no difference.....
Quoteand AFAIK, the Manson Supreme is a copy of the Rocna... that's actually a common marketing strategy for Manson, since many of their other anchors are copies as well.
....according to them at least... there are two sides to any story and I have read info to make claims that each was first....
My main point is that the Manson has worked well for me... well enough to recommend it.
My point was that since Manson does have a history of copying other anchors, it is far more likely that they copied the Rocna, not the other way around. There are some significant design differences between the two, primarily in construction and manufacturing. That said, the next gen anchors, like the Manson Supreme, Rocna and Buegel are going to be far superior to a lot of other anchors, like the Danforth, CQR and Bruce, in more varied conditions. Anyone seriously thinking of spending a lot of time on the hook would be well advised to look at getting a next gen anchor for use as their primary.
All I have to say is.... " I like eggs " ....and my delta ...and my danforth... and ice cream :o
I love these anchor "talks" Ford is better than Dodge...but what about those GM's...and have ya seen Toyota's new full size truck...WOW. Bottom line...thee best anchor is one YOU have experience with...CONFIDENCE in..are totally familiar with, know how to set it and have enough history with that ya can sleep at night!!!! I would not be without my delta. Blew 35+ today...held like glue.Yet I'd never leave without a danforth style here in the Bahamads. I am familiar with both..know how to launch each and am comfortable with them. Others may hate them...have horror stories etc. ( what size was the anchor/boat,how much chain,how did they launch it...set it etc ) There are SO many variables...I don't care what ANYONE uses...just get to know it..where it holds well...where it doesn't...how to launch and set it. Only then can ya be in on wifi with 35 knots and knot (had to do it) worry. I spend over 3 mths per year 'on the hook'. They all work...they all fail....most often = "human error"
One thing that is really frightening is watching some of the powerboaters around here anchor. They've got boats with flybridges and that are significantly heavier than my boat with much more windage, and they're dropping a 12-14 lb. Danforth as the only anchor they'll be using... that just terrifies me... especially if they're downwind or to the side and I know the wind is going to be shifting later in the evening.
Frank (as usual) makes a good point. The proper deployment of an anchor, and the right rode as probably as important.
Awful lot of people stayed put for years and years with those terrible old standard anchors that the modern marketing says should never have set.
Another good thing about small boats--even a comparatively large anchor is still manageable.
Here's another question....
You want to retrieve the anchor singlehanded in nasty conditions--windy, strong current.
So, you fire up the engine to hunt down the anchor, motoring slowly forward. Then you go to the foredeck to pull up the rode. Problem is, the boat won't steer itself toward the anchor and the Tillerpilot can't handle the manuever. Now you're on the foredeck trying to haul the boat fighting the wind, current, engine and the anchor.
I think I might be better off back in the cockpit pulling in the rode from there while steering the boat, then go up to the foredeck to get the last of it.
Any other thoughts?
One anchoring story:
I anchored the boat about 100 feet from shore to do some fishing. Came time to raise the anchor and it just wouldn't come up. Could only pull in about a foot at a time. I thought I must have snagged something on the bottom. Eventually I ran the line back to a winch. Finally got the anchor up to see a bunch of fishing line around it. I look on shore and there's a surf fisherman madly fighting what he thinks is a giant fish.
Took a while to sort it out. Not my fault. I was there first.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/commanderpete/scrubbottom.jpg)
Quote from: Cmdr Pete on February 28, 2008, 11:25:50 AM
I think I might be better off back in the cockpit pulling in the rode from there while steering the boat, then go up to the foredeck to get the last of it.
I've done it that way on my little boat. Deploy and retrieve from the cockpit. One difference, though, on that boat I keep the anchor in the cockpit. There's a line lead from forward, outside all rigging, to the cockpit. When I get ready to anchor, I tie that line tot he rode and drop the hook. Retrieve from the cockpit, untie the line and stow the anchor.
So, it's a little bit different scenario with fairly light ground tackle (compared to what would be on a 25-30 footer).
But what you are describing could be made to work.
Of course, if you have a decent windlass, bringing up the rode isn't too much trouble, even if it is a manual one. :) The tricky part is when the anchor is still hanging in the water, but the anchor has been broken free from the bottom... you'll be blowing down or being pushed by the current... then you'll have to run back to the cockpit to goose the throttle and turn on the tiller pilot... then when the engine is going and the boat can handle the wind/current with the engine throttled up a bit... go forward and finish hauling in the anchor. :)
I saw an interesting variation on this technique that led to ...issues once.
in Tasmania. The Huon river has it's main flow, and then there is a little cove that has a contrary (though gentle) flow. The result is that you see the odd sight of boats swinging at anchor at 90degrees to each other depending on whether they are in the cove or the edge of the main river flow.
Anyway, someone coming out of the cove did exactly what Drifty mentioned. Lifted the anchor just off the bottom and raced back to get out into the main river where he would have time to finish the job...Pity he snagged at least one boat's anchor chain that was at 90degrees to him in the main flow as he was departing...things got a little interesting and heated...as he broke the other boat's anchor free and they both went off down river, tangled and yelling to wind up on the soft mud of the banks...
The guy that had tangled the other boat lost his nerve and did the predictable thing of powering down. This was a mistake. It would have been better to tow the other boat into the main channel and then (given the other owner was on board) taken the time to untangle while in clear water.
Personally, the pedal activated windlas that needs constant pressure to work irritates me almost more then not having a windlas at all. I know its a safety thing....But when mine goes in, it will have some sort of switch instead of a button.
Alex.
:D That must have been a bit interesting to watch... how did it all end up???
Like I said...In the soft black and very sticky mud of the banks.
A tinny came out from the crusing yacht club anchorage across the river and took the anchor line of one of them, followed it to the cluster f*%$* where the two anchors tangled, the guys on board turned the colour of the river bank untangling them, Then they used the anchour chain (I think. I was watching form the bank a fair way away) to tow first one, then the other back into real water.
What I know for sure is that all three boats needed a serious wash afterwards!
The one that got "Collected" was back at anchor by the time we got home from shopping.
Alex.
Where's a video camera when you need one? :)
Assuming that all holding ground is not equal, and that different anchors have different positives & negatives to offer, I'm wondering if there are any rules of thumb relating to weight of an anchor vs length/displacement of the boat? Any ideas will be appreciated-
Here is some info from one of John Vigor's books. (The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat)
"An everyday (fisherman style) anchor should weigh 2 pounds for every 1 foot of waterline length.
But a storm anchor should be two sizes bigger"
He also has a table that shows sizing info for plow type anchors.
waterline vs. plow type anchor
up to 21ft = 11lb
22-25ft = 22lb
26-30ft = 25lb
31-40ft = 35lb
note: he does not mention displacement anywhere in the chapter...
disclaimer: I don't have any opinion on this subject, I am just relaying what John Vigor says about it because I have the book on hand... 8)
Directly proportional to how heavy you want to sleep ;)
Most suppliers offer charts for each style anchor (there will be differences) and I would go one up from what they suggest.
Not all anchors hold the same either. I have an 18 pound anchor and has held me in 45 knots winds, not much chop. Your choice. See what is recommended for your boat and what you can handle.
Please note that when the wind blows all the chain will be off the bottom.
Everybody likes the one that they have. As said above, there is no 1 perfect anchor for all bottom conditions. Start with one in your main cruising area.
:D The smart a$$ answer is- five pounds lighter than the heaviest one you can haul back aboard.
Seriously- first- you should have at least two and better yet, three anchors aboard, all with separate rodes. Those anchors should not be all the same kind. Because not all anchors will work in all bottoms. Places where a danforth type won't work ( grass, shell) a plow or Bruce style will.
I lived aboard a 35 foot trimaran for several years and during the last year aboard , the boat never touched a dock or mooring- we were always on our own anchors. Plus several cruises aboard Tehani that covered about half of the Gulf coast.
Here's what we carry on Tehani when sailing around here. Some specs- Tehani is 17'9" on the waterline, 25 foot over all, displaces 5300 empty and we figure just a tad over 7000 loaded for cruising with a full fuel, water and stores load aboard.
On the bow is a 22 pound Claw by Simpson Lawrence- that's their version of the Bruce. That rode has 75 feet of 1/4 G4 chain and 200 feet of 1/2 inch nylon.
Our second anchor is a 12 pound Hi-Tensile Danforth with 25 feet of 1/4 G4 chaiin and another 200 feet of 1/2 nylon.
When we were on one trip to Florida we spent a fairly rough night anchored off Ship Island, Mississippi Sound, when the wind went west ( taking away our lee) and blew in the mid to upper 20s. We took a breaking wave over the bow twice that night. I was riding to the Claw and about 60 feet of chain with a 20 foot nylon snubber, I spent a couple long hours sitting in the companionway watching the shore, but we never moved.
When we go away form here, our home bay, I add a 15 pound folding Northill 25 more feet of chain and a 150 foot 5/8 nylon rode.
The Northill is for when we MUST drop on grass, etc, where the Danforth has no prayer of holding.
I like bigger anchors, lots of chain and lots of rode available, You really need more than one, because if you travel on the boat, sooner or later you're gonna lose one of your anchors.
One other point- I will never, ever, no way, no how, lay to a single Danforth, no matter HOW big it is, in a reversing current situation. Meaning someplace where the tide will change during the night so the anchor is forced to reset. I DO NOT trust a Danforth style anchor to reliably reset, particularly in heavy mud or mud laced with shell. I've seen them come up too many times with the flukes locked on one side jammed with mud, so they could not swap side. The anchor simply cannot reset with the flukes locked upwards. I also wouldn't lay to the Northill by itself in that situation- the upward pointing fluke can catch the rode and the anchor can pull out.
I would lie to a Bruce, Claw, CQR or Delta- I've found both the CQR and the Bruce style to reset quite reliably.
now, all that having been said, there is much being said about the newer anchors- the Rocna, Manson Supreme, Bulagwa, etc. I simply have no experience with them, so cannot comment. The reports look good, and I'm really tempted, but what I have has worked for many many nights at anchor, from Annapolis around to the south coast of Texas, so I'm reluctant to change, just for change. If we lose an anchor and I have to replace, then I'll seriously consider the newer styles.
And by the way- our 22 pound claw is what they call for on up to a 35 footer I believe. It's about the heaviest thing Laura can get off the bottom by herself
Finally- I also own a pair of 20 pound Hi-tensile Danforths. If there was anyway I could fit one of those aboard when cruising, I'd do so- but they are simply physically too large to stow aboard our boat. ;)
Oh NO....not the 'anchor talk' again :o Just remember "size DOES matter" with anchors ;)
It seams that Anchors come under Religion with cruisers. So much hype by the makers make it hard to make up one's mind.
Learning what is a good set and staying with the boat during storms until one really knows what your anchor does is a must. In the book "Tropical Cruising" the author says, I think, that it takes 6 months full time cruising to get good at anchoring, everybody else is "green" no matter how much study, training or weekends on the water.
I have seen all anchors on cruising boats.
When the guys at the marina start laughing about the size of your anchor being too big for your boat, you're in the right neighborhood.
Seriously, you do need at least three anchors aboard if you're planning cruising long term, each with some chain and rope for a rode. While it does depend to some degree on what size your boat is, there are certain minimums IMHO. Going with less than 1/2" line for the anchor rode strikes me as somewhat foolish on a cruising boat, even a pocket cruiser. Not having at least a boat length of chain also strikes me as somewhat foolhardy. The chain on larger boats is there to create a catenary curve in the rode and help keep the loads on the anchor more horizontal. On smaller boats like ours, the chain is really there mainly for abrasion resistance. Rocks, coral, junk on the bottom, can all chafe through an all rope rode rather quickly.
On the Pretty Gee, the primary anchor is a Rocna 15, 33 lbs. It has 60' of chain and 200' of 5/8" octo-plait nylon. A bit overkill for a 27' 6" LOA boat with a 26' 3" waterline but the boat is 18' wide. :) One sailor I know, who is extremely conservative about anchoring, uses the same setup with more chain for his CS36T.
The secondary anchor is a Delta FastSet 22. I chose the Rocna and the Delta FastSet as the primary and secondary based on their holding characteristics...both are a bit of a pain to stow though. :) The Delta has 30' of chain and 180' of 5/8" three-strand.
The last anchor I usually have aboard is a 14 lb. Danforth. It is on 30' of chain and 150' of 5/8" octo-plait. It is primarily a lunch hook, and generally used as a stern anchor.
Anchoring a multihull like mine has some considerations that may not apply to a monohull. If an anchor pulls out of the bottom in any kind of wind, the boat can often be moving too fast for it to properly reset. This is especially true of "fluke" designs like the Danforth or the Fortress, since once the boat is moving with any speed, they will plane. They should never be used in a reversing tide or wind situation by themselves.
As for ground tackle, I think you really need to have decent ground tackle on even a small cruising sailboat. It just makes life easier. Here's a photo of my groundtackle setup:
(http://dankim.com/assets/tackle.jpg)
The original ground tackle setup had a single 6" cleat. The upgraded setup has substantially larger bow chocks, rubstrakes, two 10" cleats, a windlass and bow roller.
One note, having used a Rocna anchor for almost three seasons now... I can safely say that the rumors of greater holding power and setting ability are not exaggerated. I've nearly lost my bowman over the pulpit several times due to the anchor setting so quickly and deeply. The only complaint I have with the Rocna is that it tends to bring up 30 lbs. of mud every time we retrieve it... and we generally leave it about two feet down for a few minutes to wash off the mud.
My goodness Adrift...what a narrow bow you have ;D
A question- do you bridle your tri when you anchor?
I'm in the camp along with Jim Brown. I always used a bridle on my tri, after having a really bad experience with it getting sideways in an 84 knot blow. Once I started bridling we never again had even the hint of the boat trying to turn sideways. And we were in two more 60 knots storms and one slightly stronger, but short lived.
I had a chain hook to which I spiced a pair of 75 foot nylon lines. I led one line through a snatch block on each ama bow, then in to the center hull. I could adjust the bridle length from the main bow.
Totally stopped all hunting around at anchor. We'd just lay there with the bows pointed up into the wind, and watch the monohulls dance around.
When I did a Bahama moor with my two big Danforths, each with 50 feet of chain, I'd shackle the two chains together, then lead the rodes back to the ama bows, thru the snatch blocks and over to the main hull. Achieved the same results.
Brown highly recommended the technique in one of his books. Perhaps the " Case for the Cruising Triamaran" Since I tried it, I'll never anchor a multi again without a bridle.
Taught the technique to a friend who sails a Condor 40 tri and another who is on a Catalac catamaran. Both have now tried it and both are completely sold. They told me it was like night and day how quietly the boats lay to anchors with the bridles.
Charlie-
Only if we're expecting stronger winds... she normally behaves pretty well on the rode... but in heavier winds, I do put a bridle out.
;D
I've had TOO MANY times where the stronger winds came in, with rain, at 0200 and un-expected, so I just rigged for that always, We had it down to an art- took no more time than rigging a snubber to an all chain rode, which I do on Tehani most always.
Of course we were living aboard and always on the boat.
On the tri and on Tehani, I keep the rig coiled and on the bow, ready to go.
good question I have wonderd this for my fishing boat of how big an anchor to use but just seen in Johns book today the different styles of anchors. I like the swivel anchor but not sure if it would be more a pain in the butt to use
we had 2x cca15kg danforth anchor for 9m boat. it is also important what ground do you have. mud/ sand anchor for mud/ sand ground only.
Not as advice; just a data point...
On Godot (24' Seafarer, 24' LOA, 20'9" LWL, ~4000# displacement), I have three Danforth style anchors (two clones of 13 and 18 lbs which came with the boat, and one of the smaller Fortresses which I used to use on my small 16' weekender ... I don't remember the model). So far, though, Godot has been restricted to the muddy Chesapeake.
Last year (when I accidentally left the 18# clone at home) I dragged in a blow on the 13# clone; but managed to lock myself in place using both the 13#er and the Fortress.
Two days ago I was in a little cove with winds probably around 20 knots (enough wind really get howling and keep me paranoid enough to wake up ever fifteen minutes to check my position on the GPS) and rather choppy water. The 18#er buried deep in the thick mud, and even when the wind clocked around held very firm. In took me quite awhile to haul it up.
Conclusion: the 18 pound Danforth clone works great for my boat in thick mud. Not sure about any other ground, though.
Oh, and I've been using 3/8" line and 3/16" chain with good results. I'll eventually probably use that as a backup rode and go to 1/2" line, 1/4" chain before the Scoot. Oh, and I'll probably pick up one of the next generation anchors as well. Not sure which, yet, though.
The Manson Supreme and the Rocna are the two best of the next gen anchors IMHO. Of the older style anchors, I'd say the Delta FastSet is probably the most reliable and versatile.
Not a big fan of Danforth style anchors, except as secondarys or lunch hooks...since the flukes can jam and they have a tendency to kite once they break free, and don't deal with shifting winds or currents well. If they're used as a secondary, the primary anchor should help prevent them from breaking out...
Just to be funny, but whatever happened to the good ol concrete block that I used as a kid in my Force 5 to fish?
Did you look in your boat???
Quote from: Marc on October 25, 2008, 07:31:48 PM
Just to be funny, but whatever happened to the good ol concrete block that I used as a kid in my Force 5 to fish?
Marc...up home here when I was young, the most common anchor was a one gallon paint can filled with concrete and a big eye bolt stuck out of the top. Kinda goes with the ..."ya know you're redneck when.."
The anchors on Auspicious have been a big Rocna on the bow and a small Breeze (a Bruce knock-off) on the stern for some time. I have wanted a good-sized secondary for Bahamian moors or in case something happens to my primary.
Holding is of course of greatest interest, but something I can store is important too. Even on a (<ahem>) bigger boat storage space is an issue and most anchors don't store well.
I finally made a choice and the anchor is on its way. I'm disturbingly excited about this. <grin> My plan is to pull the big Rocna off the bow and store it in my trailer for a while so I can get some experience with the new one.
I like SailFar, so I'll be posting here first.
Pictures and identification of my choice when the darn thing shows up. In the meantime, IT'S ANOTHER ANCHOR THREAD!!! ;D
Let me guess, you got a Bulwagga... :) NOT!!!
No, not a Bulwagga.
I should offer a prize to anyone who guesses, but I can't think what I have to offer that I can afford and don't want anymore. *grin* I'd offer a beer, but I'd offer a beer to any of you guys who show up at Auspicious.
If it is a next gen anchor, it is probably a Manson Supreme. If it is an older anchor, my best guess would be a Delta FastSet. :)
Quote from: Auspicious on December 19, 2008, 12:06:46 PM
something I can store is important too.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 02:34:38 PM
If it is a next gen anchor, it is probably a Manson Supreme. If it is an older anchor, my best guess would be a Delta FastSet. :)
Neither the Manson Supreme or the Delta qualify as easy to store in my mind, or at least on my boat.
We already ruled out the Bulwagga. *grin*
As a digression, I have issues with the Manson company. The facts about "who was there first" between Rocna and Manson are far from clear, but looking at the range of products that Manson offers (a CQR copy, a Bruce copy, a Navy copy, a Fisherman copy (that does have some interesting innovation), and a Danforth copy) it isn't a big leap to believe their Supreme is a copy of someone elses anchor. I don't have definitive information to that effect, but I don't like what I see as a consumer and as a generator of intellectual property. Other's obviously disagree. We all are allowed our own opinion. Given my current understanding I won't buy anything from Manson. End of digression.
The Fortress is easy to store, but doesn't qualify as a primary anchor iMHO. Ancora Latina, from Brazil makes an interesting anchor that can disassemble into two parts, but they're not sold in the USA AFAIK.
The Spade, Buegel, Hydrobubble, and XYZ are all about the same in terms of difficulty to stow, so they're probably out of the running... you already have a Rocna. darn, I'm stumped... :)
Something you can store... One of those fisherman anchors you can disassemble? I've got one, a 55 pounder, stored in the bottom of KAHOLEE as hurricane insurance and anchor of last resort. ;)
Don't think it is one of them, since they don't hold all that well in most conditions.
Okay - this may be even more fun than I thought it would be. Someone out there is keeping track of shipping time, trying to account for holiday factors, and figuring it all out. *grin*
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 04:20:12 PM
The Fortress is easy to store, but doesn't qualify as a primary anchor iMHO.
I agree with you. The Fortress (better than but similar to the Danforth IMHO) is good at what it is good at, but limited in applicability.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 04:20:12 PM
Ancora Latina, from Brazil makes an interesting anchor that can disassemble into two parts, but they're not sold in the USA AFAIK.
Points for close. The Raya Tempest, a version that disassembles was on my very short list. In fact, I was about to buy one. The purchase price is low enough that even shipping to the US kept it competitive. It's an impressive concept and I'd love to try one out.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 04:20:12 PM
The Spade, ...
The Spade does come apart to make stowage easy. It was the anchor I expected to buy as a secondary. Since Alain sold the company shipping has been unreliable. That is why West Marine doesn't carry them anymore. Glenn Ashmore, the first fellow to offer the Spade in the US (as far as I know) doesn't sell them anymore either. The price is up 50% at the places that still try to sell them.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 04:20:12 PM
Buegel, Hydrobubble, and XYZ are all about the same in terms of difficulty to stow.
Agreed, plus the Hydrobubble just doesn't look like a long-term reliable anchor to me. I worry about that plastic floatation component exposed to UV over time. YMMV.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on December 19, 2008, 05:12:47 PM
Something you can store... One of those fisherman anchors you can disassemble? I've got one, a 55 pounder, stored in the bottom of KAHOLEE as hurricane insurance and anchor of last resort.
I looked at the PE Luke fisherman anchors, but they are really really expensive and extraordinarily heavy. 900USD for an 80 lb anchor that is weak in mud doesn't seem like a good value to me.
You are going through the same kind of thinking that I did.
1. It has to hold reliably in a range of bottoms, with emphasis on the mud bottoms I currently cruise over.
2. I need to be able to store it either in my cockpit locker or engine room without displacing a bunch of stuff I also want to carry or making systems service more difficult.
anchors anchors anchors
Craig, Alain, and João should show up any minute! *grin* Sorry Kurt. ;)
A rock tied to a stick? ;DQuote....Given my current understanding I won't buy anything from Manson....
FWIW,
I take the exact opposite position.
I believe TOOYBRN is at least as good as the Manson Supreme. I would never own one though.
What I know about TOOYBRN are the propaganda streams that have flowed across the internet... I looked at one and even priced one. I bought a Manson Supreme because I liked the design, it was less expensive, and had better certification (something other then the word of the mfg, and some altered anchor tests).
In 2 years of use, and 8 months of cruising my Manson Supreme never failed to set, and we never drug (dragged) once. I am happy with what I have and comfortable recommending it to anyone.
The nice thing is Dave, I don't hold it against you at all.. as a matter of fact I still think you are a pretty good guy and would love to run into you out there some day... hopefully not as you are dragging down on me in some anchorage some night... ;D ;) :D :o :) ;) :D ;D
TOOYBRN: The One On Your (Daves) Bow Right Now
Hmmm... That doesn't leave too many contenders out there. As for Dave dragging... I doubt that's likely, since he's got a Rocna as his primary. From my experience with mine, they stay put where you put them... got a bite like a hungry pit bull on a porterhouse steak.
As Dave has pointed out, the Hydrobubble looks like a junkie gimmick. If it really depends on the bubble to set properly, what happens to it if the bubble breaks??? Also, doesn't the bubble make it "weigh" less under water? If so, wouldn't that affect its ability to hold or set in some conditions, requiring it to be sized up compared to a less buoyant anchor.
He doesn't mention the Buegel, Wasi or Sarca. I doubt it is one of them, due to the stowage issue. He's not getting a Manson Supreme... he's made that pretty clear. :) The XYZ is a pretty big anchor, given its massive fluke size—and AFAIK, doesn't fold or disassemble.
He said it wasn't a Bulwagga—which is probably the hardest to stow of all the new designs. It also has a single point of failure, where the moving stock joins the blades, and one blade is always vertical, possibly presenting something that could foul the rode in a reversing current/wind situation.
He said it wasn't a Spade—mainly due to seller reliability issues.
He said it wasn't an Ancora Latina Raya or Raya Tempest, although the Raya Tempest does come apart according to their website.
It's not the Delta, which is the best of the "old school" anchors. The Bruce isn't made anymore, and the CQR is just ridiculously priced given its performance.
The Danforth, Fortress and other fluke anchors aren't good choices for a primary. Either are fisherman style anchors.
So what is left???? I can't think of a next generation anchor that isn't listed. I'm stumped... I guess we're gonna have to wait 'til Dave posts some pics.
super max?
It kind of comes apart... ???
Bulwagga's *rock*. Argue with me all you want, but I would lay odds that if you do, you've never set one off yer bow. They grab fast, and hold *great*. Something that does that, doesn't need to be stowed - it needs to be ready to use, and used fast, if need be. :)
On to the parent topic: Did you ever consider that maybe Dave could be speaking metaphorically...?
Who is she, Dave, where did you meet her, and how did you talk her into coming onto your boat?
;D ;D ;D
/me ducks and runs...
Quote from: s/v Faith on December 19, 2008, 07:09:01 PM
Quote....Given my current understanding I won't buy anything from Manson....
I take the exact opposite position.
And I will defend your right to your opinion with great vigor. I won't even try to convince you of my opinion.
I know that Craig has managed to tick off a lot of people. I think it is unfortunate because most of the content of most of his posts really contributes. He turns a phrase in ways that many find ... unfortunate. *grin*
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 07:58:55 PM
Hmmm... That doesn't leave too many contenders out there. As for Dave dragging... I doubt that's likely, since he's got a Rocna as his primary.
Thanks Dan. I do still believe that skill is more important than the lump of metal on the end of the rode. Better anchors are better, and reduce the criticality of skill, but skill is still a significant factor.
By the way, I firmly believe that a secondary should be just as good as the primary.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 07:58:55 PMHe doesn't mention the Buegel, Wasi or Sarca. I doubt it is one of them, due to the stowage issue.
Correct.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 07:58:55 PMThe XYZ is a pretty big anchor, given its massive fluke size—and AFAIK, doesn't fold or disassemble.
Agreed, although with a big cockpit locker it wouldn't be as tough to stow as most one-piece anchors.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2008, 07:58:55 PM
He said it wasn't an Ancora Latina Raya or Raya Tempest, although the Raya Tempest does come apart according to their website.
It came pretty close. I was ready to pull the trigger on a Raya Tempest. I will be back in touch with them to see if they are interested in some empirical testing but I won't be putting my own money in.
Quote from: CapnK on December 20, 2008, 01:03:09 PM
Bulwagga's *rock*. Argue with me all you want, but I would lay odds that if you do, you've never set one off yer bow.
I won't begin to argue with you. I like the concept, but not the stowage space (remember I have a primary already that 1. I have confidence in and 2. won't stow easily. I would like to try one someday just for the experience. As noted however, that vertical fluke does give me some concern about holding in reversing currents. It may not be a problem but my gut says it might be.
Quote from: CapnK on December 20, 2008, 01:03:09 PMDid you ever consider that maybe Dave could be speaking metaphorically...?
Nice. You have just as warped a sense of humor as I do. I knew I like you. *grin*
Quote from: CapnK on December 20, 2008, 01:03:09 PMWho is she, Dave, where did you meet her, and how did you talk her into coming onto your boat?
Well, as it happens, her name is Janet, I met her in a bar while I was doing laundry, and she loves sailing. That is entirely independent of my new secondary anchor.
You guys have essentially duplicated my thought process in making a selection. It would appear that there is one tiny piece of information I have that you don't have. I'm confident that if any of you had it you would *know* you had the right answer.
I still need to figure out some prize or reward in case someone figures it out ...
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
Jordan series drogue, or a chute, then...? ;D
Quote from: CapnK on December 20, 2008, 03:53:35 PM
Jordan series drogue, or a chute, then...? ;D
Just as I said -- a warped sense of humor. ;D
Is it one of those weird hinged 'box' type anchors that fold flat?
Quote from: s/v Faith on December 20, 2008, 08:22:46 PM
Is it one of those weird hinged 'box' type anchors that fold flat?
LOL, Well it certainly fits the "stowable" criteria ;D
I think I'm a little too conservative to pick anything that is aptly described as weird. ;)
Quote from: Auspicious on December 20, 2008, 09:04:54 PM
I think I'm a little too conservative to pick anything that is aptly described as weird. ;)
Sorry Dave... Maybe I should have said 'unusual'. ;)
I saw a chromed folding box anchor at WM the other day. I thought it was clever, but not something I would be interested in.
So basically, he's withholding key information... GRR!!!!
The folding box anchors were reviewed in a couple of magazines, and the universal opinion was a plastic milk crate with rocks in it would work better IIRC.
Janet may be more of a drogue than an anchor... ;)
Hmm...
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 21, 2008, 09:36:44 AMJanet may be more of a drogue than an anchor... ;)
Ha. I win. Janet is not only sufficiently concerned about my back as to do almost all the grinding (I still reef the main), she is getting darned good ar driving the boat. She went out with me last January on a 19F day, but has expressed an interest in avoiding such weather in future. *grin*
We have had a minor issue with the dinghy, so even when she is driving the dinghy *I* wear the little red safety cord.
At some point I expect she'll hook up with Laura and then the guys had better all watch out...
QuoteAt some point I expect she'll hook up with Laura and then the guys had better all watch out...
Or Connie... :)
The shipping folks indicate my new anchor should arrive at their depot sometime on Tuesday the 23rd. With travel, family stuff, and the holiday it's likely I won't be able to pick it up until Friday. Everyone will just have to wait until the weekend for pictures...
Hope there are lots of boat goodies under everyone's trees.
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
COuld it be the new SARCA II? I thought they were still mnostly twidling with the prototypes, but that info is nearly a year old, so they may have released them.
Essentially it is the trad SARCA anchour (brilliant, but not readily storable on a small boat), except that the shank detaches from the blade and the hoop fold down along the blade for stowage. The whole thing then locks back togetehr and is ready to deploy in under a minute and with no tools on deck or small connector parts to drop overboard. It is apparently impossible to have one come apart when deployed as the metal would actually tear apart before the connection points sheared or failed.
Sounds interesting, but I have never seen more then drawings and a short animation.
Hmm... Well, he should have it by now, unless someone hijacked the truck... so we'll find out shortly. :)
There was an airplane and customs in the way. I'm still trying to track it down. The holidays haven't helped any. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to close on the issue.
Apparently I'm an idiot.
My new anchor has been sitting in United Cargo bonded storage since the 23rd. I've sent containers of stuff through customs of other countries but I can't get a stinking anchor through our own? Aaaargh.
So anyway now I have all the proper guidance from some truly helpful folk at US Customs at BWI. I'll go up Monday to pay the ransom (they actually think it will not be dutiable -- cool beans!) and bring it home. Pictures and info to follow.
You'll get it here first on SailFar.net!
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
LOL... gotta love DHS... :) and how efficient they are.
I wasn't being sarcastic. United Cargo failed to call me when the shipment arrived. US Customs helped me track down the shipment (in United's bonded cargo storage) and gave me a step-by-step on what I need to do on Monday to clear. We'll see how actuality works on Monday.
I have to say that my interactions with US Customs (I guess I should call them CBP) outside of airports has been universally positive. When I imported Auspicious in Norfolk in '06 they were helpful above and beyond any reasonable expectation. This experience (so far) as been very positive.
I wonder if I can get miles for this anchor shipment? *grin*
I'm rather excited about this and planning an early (cold) trip out to test the new anchor.
sail fast (and eat well), dave
S/V Auspicious
You'll have to post photos of the new anchor on the bow roller... :)
That's the plan! It may take me a bit because I want to run the whole chain out and remark the lengths. I'll at least post pictures in the bed of the truck.
Dave,
2 pages of posts and we STILL don't know what it is.... I hope they are giving you this anchor for free, you sure have me wondering what it is. ;D
I didn't think it would drag out quite this long. All will be revealed.
Okay - I have the anchor. US Customs was easy, cooperative, supportive, and just about everything you could ask for from a US Government agency. Kudos to CBP and to Officer Alexander in particular at BWI. WFS (Worldwide Freight Systems?) who has the bonded warehouse contract for all international cargo at BWI on the other hand was a nightmare. I checked in there to pick up my waybill and other paperwork; while I was processing through Customs they managed to lose the paperwork, so instead of staging my shipment for loading while I was gone they went looking for the papers (their copies of the same ones they gave me minutes before) and then went wandering around the warehouse looking for the shipment. Aaargh.
Anyway the anchor is in the back of my truck while I coordinate with the Annapolis Harbormaster about chewing up the pedestrian dock for an hour or so later this week to remark my chain and swap anchors.
In the meantime, here is a picture of the shipment:
(http://skolnick.org/images/posts/stowable3x.jpg)
photo copyright Auspicious 2009 and may not be reposted without permission. Links back to this site are expressly permitted by virtue of this post.
The backstory is that based on my earlier research that led to buying a Rocna 25 as my main anchor, I was prepared to purchase a Spade S100 for my secondary. Since the sale of the Spade company a couple of years ago, prices in the US have gone through the roof and the new manufacturer has a poor reputation for delivery. Apparently this is why West Marine no longer carries Spade; if your local WM has one in the size you want buy it. After discussions with a fellow I hold in high regard who is pretty objective, I was prepared to pull the trigger on a Raya Tempest. Craig Smith heard of my search and made me a great deal on a brand-new product - the Rocna Stowable.
So I have a Rocna Stowable 25, unit number 1, in the bed of my truck. I'll post more pictures of the bits as I do the installation, but the real story will be after I stick it in Chesapeake mud a few times and compare the performance to my original Rocna 25.
Here is some more of the story:
QuoteA new anchor is on its way to Auspicious.
I really like my Rocna 25. it has been a wonderful anchor that allows me to sleep well on the hook. I have great confidence in it. I do want a second anchor for times when the weather is really really bad. Storing anchors on a boat is not a simple matter. One of the few things I don't like about my HR is that I really can't keep two anchors stored on the bow. Iif geometry allowed i would do so despite the weight issues.
I started out looking at Spade anchors since they can be dissassembled for easier storage. I think highly of Spade. It appears that the designer of the Spade anchor was involved in the design of a new anchor from Anchorlatina called Raya; that anchor looks pretty good also.
In response to some whining on my part on an Internet forum Craig Smith, the son of the Rocna anchor designer, sent me a note to let me know that Rocna is releasing a version of their anchor that can be taken apart for storage. They call it "the Stowable."
Spade anchors have become increasingly expensive in the USA and more difficult to get delivery of. The Raya was looking pretty good, even with delivery from South America. Rocna came up with quite a good price that only required me to pick it up at Baltimore-Washington International Airport and manage customs myself. My experience with Rocna made this a pretty simple decision.
The first picture shows a Rocna 25 Stowable and a Rocna 20 Stowable.
(http://skolnick.org/images/posts/stowable1x.jpg)
this photo pending permission to distribute from the copyright holder
The second picture shows the joint where the shank and the blade come together.
(http://skolnick.org/images/posts/stowable2x.jpg)
this photo pending permission to distribute from the copyright holder
As I have said, I like you guys, so further posts will be simultaneously here and on my own (sporadic) blog and then other places.
By the why, I'm still looking for a co-author on an anchor-related professional paper who is a civil or ocean engineer with good saturated soils experience.
You bastage... I didn't know that Rocna had come up with a stowable. :) Just curious, how much was it, if you don't mind saying?
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 12, 2009, 04:25:00 PM
You bastage... I didn't know that Rocna had come up with a stowable. :) Just curious, how much was it, if you don't mind saying?
Ha. Consider this a product announcement. Craig is sailing in the Antarctic with his Dad so he can't stop me. *grin*
I paid about 710 USD for a 25 including the fees and such to ransom it out of bonded storage. As far as I know full production hasn't started yet, pricing isn't really in place, the Canadian folks aren't trained for manufacturing yet, and I probably got a reasonable break because Craig knows I'm vocal on anchors and write reasonably well. Isn't that open and forthright enough for you?
That said, I think this is an exciting option for the American market.
In many ways I would like to have had the Raya to compare, but when I bought my first Rocna they were pretty much an unknown. The Raya would be a slightly bigger risk than I accepted with the first Rocna. We'll see.
I expect to get the anchor on this week and get it wet by the end of the weekend.
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
Umm...don't forget to tighten the bolt and lock nut. :) I'd hate to see you come back with just the stock. BTW, the news about the new Rocna Stowable has been broken over on Sailnet. :)
Looks good. I bet it will work as well as a regular Rocna, it does not look like the bolt is likely to fail.
Price will probably come down in production, but they have been on the high side of the scale all along.
I bet it will work, but I will stick with my Manson Supreme. Never has dragged, (drug?) better certification, and 1/3 the price.
Good luck, enjoy your new anchor Dave.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 12, 2009, 05:15:27 PM
Umm...don't forget to tighten the bolt and lock nut.
I shouldn't need to do that, in fact I'm planning to do some playing with the bolt and nut removed.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 12, 2009, 05:15:27 PMBTW, the news about the new Rocna Stowable has been broken over on Sailnet.
I'll send you a bill for drinks for anyone who shows up to play this weekend, unless you just want to send me a credit card number, expiration, and the secret number ...
Let us know how it goes... and no, I'm not paying for the drinks... the way you drink, you'd bankrupt me yourself. :) Besides, you've got the shiny new toy...not me...
Still, it would have been nice to let me post where I wanted in my own time, and if you're going to post photos to host them on your own servers where I don't have to pay for the bandwidth.
My feelings of community are a good bit less strong. You make your choices and you pay the price.
Not cool.
I can host the photos if that's an issue.
I've taken down the two photos I did not personally take. When the photographer gets back from sailing in Antarctica I'll ask for permission to post them.
In the meantime, my photographs are copyright Auspicious 2009 and may not be reposted without permission.
Hmmm..with the photos still up it is hard to get a real picture of what they look like, I guess I will have to go over to Sail-net to see them. ;)
I'll be testing this weekend. Open invitation to anyone who wants to come play.
Dan - it would be best if you don't come. I'm not very happy with you.
sail fast, sail far, eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
I might be around this weekend, Dave. Hmmm... play on a boat in the cold, or do house repairs. Tough choice.
Gawd, I miss sailing.
:D
It's too darn cold. I'm staying home and making lasagna tonight and baking bread tomorrow.
Quote from: Auspicious on January 17, 2009, 04:15:42 PM
It's too darn cold. I'm staying home and making lasagna tonight and baking bread tomorrow.
Here is some grog to go with it. (Chianti, goes well with lasagna). ;D I now know what I am having for dinner tonight.
The lasagna was great last night (hmm - probably in the wrong forum for this) and will have leftovers for lunch shortly.
Temperature is up to 37F now, and if it is even a bit warmer tomorrow I'll spend some time on the anchor.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on December 19, 2008, 05:12:47 PM
Something you can store... One of those fisherman anchors you can disassemble?
One anchor that you can disassemble??
perhaps something similar to this?
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd193/Ancora_Latina/tempestcoupe.jpg)
João
Ancora Latina
Hello João! Welcome aboard.
I came very very close to purchasing a Raya Tempest. You may recall that you sent me a quote some months ago. Rocna made me an offer I simply could not pass up. I'd still really like to try a Raya on my boat. The design looks very promising. Perhaps someday.
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
Oh, no. And I'm shopping for a new anchor myself ...
The Raya Tempest looks like "um tal jeitinho" and would be perfect on a boat named Bossa Nova.
And the surfing at Barra da Lagoa ... could I bring it back as carry-on luggage? ;D
Quote from: Rick Westlake on January 29, 2009, 09:01:59 PM
The Raya Tempest looks like "um tal jeitinho"
;)
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd193/Ancora_Latina/P9180011-R.jpg)
I've been bugging João with questions about the Raya Tempest - ???
The really neat part is that I believe it will fit in the bow anchor locker of my MacGregor 26X! 8)
So yeah, I'm ordering one - at about the same price as West Marine wants for a 10 kg Rocna, once you add the shipping. (I'm not going to wait till my next visit to Brasil!) This is probably a heck of a lot more anchor than I need - it could hold Bossa Nova in a Category 1 hurricane, according to João's figures - but the only thing that could be wrong with "too much anchor" is if you strain your back lifting it. At 7.5 kg that's not likely!
Um grande pinga a você, João! ;D
Dave, I'm moving the Bossa Nova from Mount Vernon to Annapolis this spring ... so maybe we can get together and you can see how the Raya Tempest is on a smaller boat. (Grog to match - I make a serious caipirinha.)
Very cool Rick. Would like to see it.
I should be somewhere along Back Creek by April.
And now the sad news: The U.S. Postal Service has lost my new anchor. >:( It got through Customs in Miami, and that's the last word on it.
I'm hoping that the USPS and Correios Brasil will sort this out so that neither João nor I will get stiffed. But my hopes are fading ... slowly. It's a sad shame that our USPS has slipped so far.
Maybe I should have gone down there and picked it up myself ... 8)
Somebody at the Customs liked the design! ;D
I'm very sorry for Rick and for the delay for receiving his anchor.
I was at the Post Office again today - still no news, and I don't believe we will have anymore news now..
Next week, I will start preparing a new anchor, but this time, I will send the blade and the shank separately.. less risks ! :-[
I have had shipments send to me for pick-up at Customs at BWI. That worked great.
Rick - I have a lot of schedule flexibility - I'd be happy to be your agent to pick up your anchor if you want to ship that way. Are you in Annapolis yet?
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
Dave, I appreciate your offer - and "pick up at Customs @ BWI" sounds like a great idea. Would that mean the USPS would keep the anchor moving as "bonded freight" until it arrived at BWI?
João, I hate to see you "stuck" for another anchor - and I'm feeling afraid that the "U.S. Snail" would lose one part or the other. Correios Brasil has proven more trustworthy than the U.S. Postal Service and U.S. Customs - :o >:( Maybe I ought to have you send it to my nephew and niece in Guarapuava, Paraná - and I could pick it up next time I visit them, although that won't be for quite a while....
Bossa Nova is now at Casa Rio Marina, up at the head of Cadle Creek - a tributary of the Rhode River, which branches off northward from the West River above Shadyside and Galesville. She lives on her trailer there; they've got a good launching ramp, and it hasn't been too busy when I've been out sailing. (Unfortunately, my Aunt Cinnie had abdominal surgery last week - I've made a point of visiting her every day, and that hasn't left me any time to go sailing.)
But when the time comes ... I still have a bottle of Ypioca Ouro, a bunch of thin-skinned limes, and I'm prepared to use them!
All the best, Rick
It has been a long time coming, but João came through - and this time, the USPS came through. I have received my anchor - I guess this is the first "legal" Raya Tempest in the USA! ;D ;D ;D
Taken apart, the anchor is shorter than a Fortress FX-11, and it fits neatly in the anchor locker of my MacGregor 26X (which was built for a Danforth S600). Put together, it resembles a Manson Supreme without the roll-bar, but the shank is longer and "curved just so" (a "jeitinho Brasileiro", you might say).
Here are a couple of photos - taken apart, assembled, and beside my Fortress FX-11 (which will now be my backup anchor).
And "mais um pinga grande" to João, of Ancora Latina! 8)
Dan,
I know you like your Rocna, and I am glad it works for you. This is not accurate though;
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 16, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
...BTW, the reason I went with a Rocna over the Manson Supreme is the because of the quality of the design. The Manson Supreme's fluke is made of two thinner sheets of steel, which are edge-welded then have the edge weld ground down to shape the fluke, has the stock welded to one plate only, and then is hot-dip galvanized. This means that the area between the plates is not galvanized and the only thing holding the stock to the larger plate is the ground down edge welding... The fluke on the Rocna is a single, much heavier steel plate, and doesn't have the inherent design defects the Manson Supreme has IMHO....
The curve of the Rocna (some of which are now being produced in China BTW) is slightly different then the Manson. The fluke of the Manson is a single piece just like the Rocna.
Engels are great! Simple and efficient...what more can ya ask. I've got the small one onboard but rarely use it and a larger one for the cottage. As to a lightwind sail, others may dissagree but I like a nylon 150. It is great for light wind days to weather and poles out down wind. While not as efficient as a spinnaker or DRS it will go to weather. I was trying to cover multiple bases for the least inventory figuring both storage and costs were important.
I like having lazy jacks. When everything is easy - lazy jacks or not - I drop the main in three stages and tie down each piece before lowering more. The greatest benefit of lazy jacks is being able to drop the whole thing without ending up with blocked views.
I spent the better part of a summer cruising the Chesapeake with a girl friend on a Catalina 22. I've been a spinnaker ho for decades and love that sail; she was - initially - less enamored. Over the course of that summer we used the spinnaker more and more often. As a result we motored less and sailed more in light air. I currently have a 1.5 oz asymmetric that will be supplemented with a .75oz symmetric.
If you aren't fully comfortable with the chute, spend some time racing other people's boats and build your skills and confidence.
No one I know out cruising has ever said "we have too many batteries." More is better.
Just inventories our ice chest.. This after Laura has been aboard for nine weeks and me for six.
One half gal jug water, one half bottle Coke, two chunks cheese and some left over rice from last night.
NO condiments- none of those need to be kept cold.
As to the ice- block is definitly best but VERY hard to find at least so far. We found it in Gulfport and Pascagoula , Ms so far and in. Oth towns it was well out of walking distance. Crushed is a very poor choice and varies wildly in cost - from $4 down to $1 for a 17 pound bag.
Our intentions are to use the ice chest as extra food stowage space once we enter the keys and Bahamas. We both drink rum and water, unchilled and or room temp wine so that's no big deal.
On my previous boat I went with zero refrigeration for up to a year without missing it
of course, keeping that insulin viable is a whole different story. Good luck with it.
"We both drink rum and water, unchilled"
I hope its more water than rum, but its your navigation:)
Not to worry. On Tehani NO alcohol is consumed til the lines are on the dock or the anchor is firmly down. And if anchored, usually it's max of two drinks.
I don't like drunk boaters. Hey- I don't much like drunks.
S/v Faith—
I'd point out that the Manson website says:
QuoteReinforced Double Skinned Laminated toe. Provides an extremely strong forward section of the anchor where the most loading is concentrated.
The fluke of the Manson Supreme is two pieces, as it is "Laminated". The blade of the Rocna, at least the one I have is bent using a brake press, rather than just rolled, and due to the compound nature of the bend caused by the brake press is stronger than the rolled shape of the Manson Supreme.
Quote from: s/v Faith on September 16, 2009, 10:17:33 AM
Dan,
I know you like your Rocna, and I am glad it works for you. This is not accurate though;
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 16, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
...BTW, the reason I went with a Rocna over the Manson Supreme is the because of the quality of the design. The Manson Supreme's fluke is made of two thinner sheets of steel, which are edge-welded then have the edge weld ground down to shape the fluke, has the stock welded to one plate only, and then is hot-dip galvanized. This means that the area between the plates is not galvanized and the only thing holding the stock to the larger plate is the ground down edge welding... The fluke on the Rocna is a single, much heavier steel plate, and doesn't have the inherent design defects the Manson Supreme has IMHO....
The curve of the Rocna (some of which are now being produced in China BTW) is slightly different then the Manson. The fluke of the Manson is a single piece just like the Rocna.
Sure was quiet for a while.....Here goes that darn anchor talk....worst than politics! Charlie....can I have a rum and water :o
Don't worry Frank, I pluck these couple posts off and put them in the anchor thread....
Dan, have you ever actually looked at a Manson Supreme?
They are a good looking anchor;
(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3230&stc=1&d=1145639349)
I understand that if you are just looking at the picture, you might read the description and be less then clear about this;
QuoteReinforced Double Skinned Laminated toe
What could they be talking about???? Well, the 'toe' is not the fluke... it is the toe. The Manson / Rocna design focuses a lot of strain on the tip if you are anchored in rock. It is an area that could be (more) easily bent on either anchor since the fluke and the shank are both quite a bit wider... the stress would all be on the tip (or toe). Manson adds a reinforced plate to the tip. Rocna does not.
I kind of like that Manson adds it.
Rocna adds some plate onto their anchor too... they weld on 'wingletts' where the roll bar meets the fluke. Do I think this matters? No, of course not. I do not think the Rocna is going to fail because they weld plates on the ends of the fluke any more then if they had copied Manson and reinforced the tip.
They are both excellent anchors. I also like the new Anchor Latina anchor and might have gone that route if it had been on the market when I bought it.
I know that since I have had my Manson Supreme I have not dragged anchor. I rode it through a hurricane (Noel) and have cruised with it. We anchored in places marked as 'poor holding' and rode out storms there... and did not drag.
Rocna claims Manson copied their design.... Others have cited where Manson had one on the market before Rocna so I am not sure how this is possible... or if it matters.
Rocna has shifted (at least some) of their production to China... I personally don't like Chinese shackles, and would probably not buy an anchor made there.. the debate rages on.
When I bought my anchor, Rocna wanted a coupe hundred dollars more for their anchor, (and it was not certified by Lloyds) so I bought the Manson. That and I did not like the way the Rocna marketing engine tried to cram their product down every one's throats.
You have a Rocna, and you like it.
Great! I have a Manson, and I like it.
Great! ;D
You and I both know that the hook is just a part of the overall equation anyway. Proper rode, tactics, and deck seamanship is the biggest parts of staying put.
Personally I think the marketing is best left to those who do it for a living.
Agreed? :)
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 16, 2009, 10:46:56 PM
S/v Faith—
I'd point out that the Manson website says:
QuoteReinforced Double Skinned Laminated toe. Provides an extremely strong forward section of the anchor where the most loading is concentrated.
The fluke of the Manson Supreme is two pieces, as it is "Laminated". The blade of the Rocna, at least the one I have is bent using a brake press, rather than just rolled, and due to the compound nature of the bend caused by the brake press is stronger than the rolled shape of the Manson Supreme.
Quote from: s/v Faith on September 16, 2009, 10:17:33 AM
Dan,
I know you like your Rocna, and I am glad it works for you. This is not accurate though;
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 16, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
...BTW, the reason I went with a Rocna over the Manson Supreme is the because of the quality of the design. The Manson Supreme's fluke is made of two thinner sheets of steel, which are edge-welded then have the edge weld ground down to shape the fluke, has the stock welded to one plate only, and then is hot-dip galvanized. This means that the area between the plates is not galvanized and the only thing holding the stock to the larger plate is the ground down edge welding... The fluke on the Rocna is a single, much heavier steel plate, and doesn't have the inherent design defects the Manson Supreme has IMHO....
The curve of the Rocna (some of which are now being produced in China BTW) is slightly different then the Manson. The fluke of the Manson is a single piece just like the Rocna.
Oh yea.. and Dan,
The Rocna is a pretty anchor too;
(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3228&stc=1&d=1145639091)
;)
;D
I like the curves on my delta better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;D ::) :o
Why I bought it...performance re price (I'm thrifty)
why I keep it.....only dragged once (weeds-my fault) in over 300 nights at anchor
Why I trust it.....only dragged once in over 300 nights at anchor
The debate rages on :D
I've always felt and wrote before that THEE best anchor is the one you trust. I've used danforth style with success, bruce knock-offs with success and my delta. All 3 live aboard. I've come to trust my delta more. Others in "their experiences" may not and trust another type better. When the wind is howling outside...it is that trust based on "your own experience" that allows you to sleep better. Totally personal.
Quote from: Frank on September 17, 2009, 10:33:58 AM
I like the curves on my delta better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;D ::) :o
Why I bought it...performance re price (I'm thrifty)
why I keep it.....only dragged once (weeds-my fault) in over 300 nights at anchor
Why I trust it.....only dragged once in over 300 nights at anchor
The debate rages on :D
Some more anchor glamor shots... :D
(http://relimg.reliancemarine.com/58737420.jpg)
(http://www.triton381.com/images/slclaw.JPG)
And for the fans of Chineese anchors... here is a Stainless version;
(http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00LBNtVzoRsfuqM/Stainless-Steel-Bruce-Anchor.jpg)
(http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz329/svnecessity/IMG_3274.jpg)
I've got a Manson Supreme 25#, so here is a pic of the bottom. It's definitely made of a lamination. It worries me not. It adds some weight to the tip and is beefy.
One thing I'd point out is that Stainless Steel isn't the best material for an anchor, at least if you're planning on anchoring out a lot. Anchors that are used, buried in mud/sand, are going to be deprived of oxygen and the stainless steel will suffer from crevice corrosion in the process. If you're going to use the anchor, I'd highly recommend you get it in galvanized steel, not stainless steel.
Not to mention that the stainless steel is frequently weaker than it's galvanized counterpart to begin with!
Just spoke with CJ. He and Laura are anchored in a nice protected place in 12ft of water with 70ft of chain out. He's sipping on a beer, reading a book and a kayak is gluiding by ( I'm jealous!) He has a hard time typing on his lil buttons so shared some anchor info. He is very happy with his Bruce style anchors. On the previous boat, a 21fter, they had 2-2 month long trips to Florida and back...almost entirely at anchor. It had a 16lb Bruce.One night with other boats rafted up they were caught in a 45knot sqaul. The 16lber held and took 45 minutes to retreave the next day...literally having to power around it in circles to 'unscrew it'. Their current boat has a 22lb claw. Again they have 2 Florida trips on it at 4 to 6 weeks each. Only once did it drag and that was when they experienced a 180 % 'instant' windshift in which the boat went straight back and over the anchor popping it out in reverse. Laura while single handing has had 2 squals in the 45knt range and it held. They are very happy with the value and performance of their bruce style anchors and based on their experience have confidence in them. They also carry other styles onboard as no one anchor does it all...but they trust their Bruce style as their main anchor. CJ....hope I got this mostly right...I was taking notes quickly on 4 little sticky note pads ;D
Pretty much it Frank- thanks
Can someone explain why the "shape" of the differnt ancors on the market, why and where to use??? ???
A use of the search function here will show you a couple of threads with all you could want to know (and then some) ;)
Ankor wat?
Quote from: evantica on April 04, 2010, 01:02:20 PM
Can someone explain why the "shape" of the differnt ancors on the market, why and where to use??? ???
I went ahead and merged your thread into this one. You can go back to the beginning, or you can simply go buy one of these and sleep very well;
Manson Supreme(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3230&stc=1&d=1145639349)
You can also get the Chinese version, but it is more expensive... ???
(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3228&stc=1&d=1145639091)
;D
Faith -
All the data I have seen indicates that it is much more likely that Manson copied Rocna, and not the other way around.
I have two Rocna anchors, one made in Canada and one in New Zealand. Some Rocna manufacturing is now done in China but there is no indication that I have seen anywhere that all the specs aren't being met. If you have definitive, quantitative information I'd like to see it.
Independent of manufacturing information, Manson is a clone company. Look at their whole product line. All copies. I prefer my money go to creative folk that contribute to state of the art.
I'd second what Auspicious has said... Manson has a long standing tradition of copying anchors, and very little in the way of any track record of innovation. The "rock slot" on the Manson Supreme is taken from the Sarca anchor.
Personally, I think the whole idea of the rock slot is stupid and ill-thought out. How does the anchor know that the shackle has moved from the aft end of the stock to the forward end because you've intentionally done that to free the anchor, rather than due to a current or wind shift? It doesn't... and there is no way the anchor will reset if the anchor is being dragged backwards.
OH NO :o :o That "anchor " talk again.
Right up there with politics and religion.
Words of simple wisdom:
get the biggest anchor ya can handle
have proper chain and rode
use more scope than ya need
have a 2nd of a different design
Bring up the "anchor talk" when things seem dull here,,,,,always good for a rise
remember...................I like eggs ;D ;) :o
Ok,
I must confess, I was having a bit of fun with that 'Chinese version' comment. ;)
I think that either anchor would hold your boat well, and would not dissuade anyone from either.
That said, here are a couple more of the same points... since this will simply not go away.... (insert beating dead horse icon here).
- The Manson Supreme rock slot is ADDED material. It can not weaken the shank, it strengthens it. The over all height of the shank is higher... so it is stronger. The bit about it being weaker is simply Rocna marketing bunk.. which is my biggest complaint with Rocna.
- Rocna has resorted to gorilla marketing, editing Wiki adds, and was really quite obnoxious about their marketing. They claim to no longer do this, but persist in trying to market their wares through misinformation which I find sleazy. I would not buy one of their (perfectly good) anchors on principal alone.
- Rocna Moved some of their production to China. There was no announcement until after they got 'outted' on another forum (it is now listed on their web site). They claim high quality in thri Chinese plant... I am sure that is true of the initial production run... will it continue? I prefer non-Chinese hardware, especially WRT ground tackle. (This is personal opinion, and I have NO data to suggest inferior ROCNA CHINA products.)
- Rocna was making some bogus claims about Manson on their site saying that the added metal on the tip was a liability. There are zero reported failures due to this ADDED material... the idea that doubling the thickness of the steel makes it weaker is rather silly, but they persist in the claim.
- My Manson Supreme has never dragged. Many report the same of theirs. Many say the same of their Rocna's.
Both are (IMHO) a dramatic improvement over prior anchors, I am sure that if used improperly either one can be made to fail. I am very happy with my Manson Supreme, and hope that the same is true of everyone else here what ever anchor they may use.....
.... even if it is made in China.... [ducks]..... ;D
Up here where I come from we have our own brand...home grown..."Ottawa valley Anchors"
They've been used with success on small fishing boats for years.
Take one empty one gallon paint can
One 6 in nail.
Bend said nail into "U" shape
Fill said paint can with easy-mix concrete (have 2nd can at the ready
if 2 are needed)
Insert said nail into concrete with about 3/4 inch loop exposed
Once cured...attach cheap yellow rode (no chain) and set from 12ft fishing boat
They've worked for years.
Now.....wonder if new paint cans are made in China ? ;D ;) :o
Danforth, chain and a shoe (some ppl call it 'backing the anchor') has not failed me yet, fingersXX. Haven't dealt with a lot of rock or shingle, but does well in the gelatinous muck I've dealt with in StJohn's & throughout the southeast. Besides, I'm cheap.
Any suggestions for a bow/anchor roller setup. My Ariel (I like the way that sounds) has no real anchor setup so I will start from scratch. Im leaning toward a 25# Manson Supreme with 50ft 5/16 G4 chain and 150ft 5/8 line The boat has a 20lbs or so danforth that I`ll use as a secondary/lunch anchor. Hard to sort thru all the bow roller options.
Just trying to sort thru all the options for an anchor setup. I would like to keep it simple and low cost(not cheap).
Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on January 13, 2012, 02:12:29 PM
Any suggestions for a bow/anchor roller setup. My Ariel (I like the way that sounds) has no real anchor setup so I will start from scratch. Im leaning toward a 25# Manson Supreme with 50ft 5/16 G4 chain and 150ft 5/8 line The boat has a 20lbs or so danforth that I`ll use as a secondary/lunch anchor. Hard to sort thru all the bow roller options.
Just trying to sort thru all the options for an anchor setup. I would like to keep it simple and low cost(not cheap).
Sounds like a good setup to me, perhaps a little more rode depending on your anchorages.
I`m open to more line and I`d like to err on the side of too long than too short. My crusing grounds are most likely going to be the Chesapeake to start with then maybe Bahamas and the Florida Keys. All of which are shallow areas.
On board Tehani (very close to Ariel size) I carry 75 feet of 1/4 Hi-tensile (G-4) chain, 150 feet of 1/2 nylon and a 22 pound Claw ( Bruce copy). I also carry a 12 pound Hi-test Danforth ( true Danforth), with 30 feet of the same chain and another 100 feet of 5/16 nylon.
Also aboard is another 25 feet of chain and 200 feet of 1/2 nylon. Had a 16 pound folding Northill aboard, but never used it, so took it off.
In close to 10,000 miles (three trips) cruising, I rarely found the need for more than just the chain. I did use the Danforth in the few times when we Bahama moored, which wasn't often.
This was anchoring in the Chesapeake, all along the coast, Keys and all through the Bahamas.
I think your choices are pretty good, But a 20 lb Danforth is HUGE!! I have two of them at home, and they won't really fit aboard Tehani. Way too big..
Instead of straying off topic or starting a new thread I dug this one up for my question:
What weight/strength should I calculate for my anchor chain and line?
Is there a rule of thumb like "half the boats displacement" or something?
ok,. some purely personal feelings here. I have never had a windlass on a boat- always hauled rode by hand, and still will as long as I am able
On my 35 foot trimaran, light weight but tons of windage in a blow, i used 5/16 G4 chain, and 5/8ths nylon. 100 feet of chain, and 200 feet of nylon. Seldom used the nylon
On Tehani, with a loaded for cruising weight of roughly 7500, I use 1/4 G4, and 1/2 inch nylon. 75 feet of chain, and 150 feet of nylon. Used the nylon 4 or 5 times in 3 years.
I DO use a nylon snubber, with a chain hook,usually with 15 feet of line out. That provides the shock absorbsion
All that works well where I Anchor. VERY seldom in more than 20 feet
One thing you DO NOT want to do is go way heavy on the nylon. Part of the value of that nylon rode is stretch, which lessens shock loading on cleats, and the boat itself. So if you go too heavy, you negate that stretch
edited- chain hook/snubber looks like this
Good advice, especially about the stretch, thanks! I'll try to convert that to metric... :P
But I still wonder about what forces we are talking about?
The size guide for the anchor suggests a certain dimension of chain. Should the nylon match that breaking strength or be less (the suggested chain being more about weight for shock absorption then strength)?
Does anyone know of a study on the forces acting on anchoring gear in different weather?
Surely someone has looked at this?
Here's links to two West Marine Advisor articles-
Selecting a rode
http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-An-Anchor-Rode
and an anchor
http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-The-Right-Anchor
Anchoring is black magic. Or perhaps art. There are so many different things that can happen, based on wind, bottom conditions, current, anchoring technique, sailing philosophy, boat windage, surge, etc... If day sailing in gentleman's weather is your cup of tea, a light anchor and some line will more than likely serve you well for an entire sailing career. If cruising the remote places of the world, sooner or later you are likely to find yourself in an anchorage with a serious blow and surge coming through. Given that the holding power of anchors is so dependent on set, bottom type, etc, I think the manufacturers are mostly guessing. And when they guess they generally lean towards the majority needs of daysailers/weekenders as it makes their anchors look like better values. This is why there is the old suggestion of upsizing a size or two.
I think the new modern anchors are using a different philosophy for sizing recommendations. They are really not necessary for the needs of the typical daysailer, where a lightweight Danforth seems to generally be adequate. I think they are instead targeting cruisers. Rocna made a big point on their website that the anchors are sized conservatively to the needs of cruisers. Manson Supreme recommendations appear similar. If your boat is near the top of the anchor recommendation range on a new gen anchor, perhaps it is smart to upsize one size. Otherwise, based on the anecdotal evidence I hear on web forums, the recommended size is probably adequate. Your mileage may vary, of course.
As to the anchor rode, the rule of thumb that I've typically worked under is twice the size of the chain. On Godot I had 3/16" chain and 3/8" line. It seemed to work fine; although despite plans, I never did get her out of the Chesapeake. I was definitely under-anchored with a lightweight Bruce knockoff that required careful setting to be effective. Many people have suggested that the minimum size for any kind of cruising would be 1/4" chain and 1/2" line; but with such a small boat as a Seafarer 24 I think I was OK. If I had taken her further afield I probably would have upgraded both the anchor and rode, though.
As to the study you are looking for, I've seen attempts at measuring freeboard and wind forces and the like, although I don't immediately remember where. I think the Jordon series drogue website has some info. Personally, I think you will be well served by following the suggestions on the West Marine Advisor site.
Check out http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/rode.htm. Maybe that is what you are looking for.
Little more information about anchors and holding.
http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/independent-performance-testing.php (http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/independent-performance-testing.php)
Thanks! I will get back when I have had time to read it all.
Thanks!
The Alain Fraysse link is great (if you enjoy physics, which I do)!
Tomorrow there is a spring sale at my marina with 20% off on lines so I hope to buy some.
One quick question if anybody has the answer:
Is a 3-strand nylon rode more or less elastic than an 8-strand, multi plait rode?
Which should I choose?
Me I'd go with the 3 strand nylon.
Quote from: Grime on April 28, 2015, 06:50:02 PM
Me I'd go with the 3 strand nylon.
For what reason?
I see that the 8-strand has a higher breaking strength for the same diameter so I suspect that it is less elastic?
I've always used 3 strand. VERY simple to splice.
A lot of question are easy to answer. Me I walk the docks and look at what others are using. I specially look over what the long time sailors use. Then I make my assessment from there.
To answer you question. Yes nylon is more elastic than braided line. You want a give in your anchor rode and your dock lines.
Today at the marina I noticed a new member to the marina that has all nylon rode connected to a Bruce.. This is a 40+' ketch. There is no way this setup would hold.
I've got 200' of 8-plait 1/2" line on Seeker, which is spliced on to 90' of 1/4" hi-test chain.
The splicing is a little more involved, probably, than three strand; but the instructions are readily available online and it is certainly within the skill set of any reasonably handy person.
The plait is quite a lot more compact. I think it is somewhat more expensive as well. So far it seems to be great; but truthfully, so far I've rarely needed more than my 90' of chain.
Talked to them today. Measuring for sails. Just bought the boat- survivor of Katrina in NO. I seriously doubt that nylon to anchor will be left that way. He has a lot of work to do- take a look at the wrecked bow pulpit
Quote from: Godot on April 28, 2015, 09:03:21 PM
So far it seems to be great; but truthfully, so far I've rarely needed more than my 90' of chain.
Yep I have 75 feet of chain, and have used all of it maybe 4 times in many many miles. 3'6" draft understand.
Admittedly, several times I had good bit of nylon out, but not often. Usually can find 10 feet to anchor in around the coast
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 28, 2015, 10:06:42 PM
Talked to them today. Measuring for sails. Just bought the boat- survivor of Katrina in NO. I seriously doubt that nylon to anchor will be left that way. He has a lot of work to do- take a look at the wrecked bow pulpit
Agreed on lots of work to do. They ended up on the rock coming in to the marina. I watch them haul a lady all the way to the mast just to lower a tape down. Instead of tying the tape to the halyard for the measurement. Make me wonder about their experience. Point was about the anchor and rode was that you can't always put total faith in what you see at a marina. You have to use some common since.
On another point with braided rode. Yes it can be spliced. You will need to buy a fib set then practice and practice to make a good splice that you would trust not to pull apart. Been there and done that on my roller furling. I would never trust my splice with braided rode. There are videos online on how to back braid or splice 3 strand. No tools to buy required.
I don't recall where, but I read about some testing re: shock-absorbing value of chain, with or without kellet, and when the fan is turned on "high" the chain gets stretched out so taut that the shock absorbing is not really to be relied on for much.
Quote from: Steve Bean on May 12, 2015, 11:49:11 PM
I don't recall where, but I read about some testing re: shock-absorbing value of chain, with or without kellet, and when the fan is turned on "high" the chain gets stretched out so taut that the shock absorbing is not really to be relied on for much.
Check reply #230 in this thread (previous page) by Godot.