Hey Guys
I've got a line on a used windvane. It's a Windpilot Pacific Plus I.
Retails for $6500. Asking $1800. Unfortunately, it's very large. According to the Windpilot website, it weighs in at 100 lbs. I think this makes it too big/heavy to be hung off the stern of my 25' 5500lb boat. What do you think?
The Windpilot is a great gear but certainly more than you need for a 25 foot boat... too much eight in the ends of a boat can really hamper performance.
One new vane that you might want to check out is the new Y&B by Mr Vee (http://www.mistervee.com/?q=catalog/mister-vee-yb) that also has some really neat innovative features that look to put it ahead of a lot of the old standards. Plus it is as cheap as a lot of the used vanes floating around.
On the other hand, building your own is both easy and a lot cheaper...
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
I agree totally- way too heavy. Would be too heavy to add to Tehani also. The engine back there is bad enough. Sure wish they made a 2 cylinder 4 stroke 5 HP ;D
James,
It's interesting that you should post this today.
Just yesterday I attended the annual winter meeting of the Northeast Fleet of the Cape Dory Sailboat Owner's Association. Pretty soon, the few owners of the Cape Dory 25D found ourselves gathered together, exchanging tips and notes.
One of the 25D owners reported that he mounted a Windpilot Pacific Light on his 25-footer -- and that she sails beautifully with this piece of equipment.
I haven't seen his boat, and I'm not able to afford a Windpilot right now, but I'm intrigued.
It seems like this could be the right sized windvane for your Aleutka.
BTW, since the Aleutka was the boat that John Letcher used for his experiments in sheet-to-tiller self-steering, have you done any experiments in that direction?
Best luck,
--Joe
Many experiments, Joe. Many. I've been most successful going to windward and straight downwind. I've been moderately successful beam reaching, but have yet to get her to steer herself broad reaching. I'll continue to work on this, but so far, I haven't made it happen, hence the desire for a windvane.
I figure I can get the windvane to sail all points except straight downwind, at which point I can use twin headsails. I just have to find a windvane and install it.
I'd considered making a trim tab vane, but my rudder kicks up and wouldn't be compatible with that style. Letcher's book goes into great detail about designing a windvane for your boat, but I'm just not tooled up for a project of that scope yet.
James:
I've also tried, after reading Letcher's book while recuperating from surgery several years ago.
Like you, I could get it to work, more or less, upwind, and even almost on a broad reach--when I was sailing with a working jib. But once I got a genny, all bets were off.
Even though I still bring my collection of blocks, line and surgical tubing onboard, I usually resort to using my Raymarine ST-2000 autopilot--not so much as a self-steerer (too energy hungry), but as a tiller holder, once I get my sails balanced.
I've been dreaming of a windvane for years, and I got even more hooked on the idea when I sailed to Bermuda last year. The boat I crewed on had a Monitor, and it worked like a charm. But it's too big--and too expensive--for a 25-footer.
That's why I'm intrigued by the Windpilot Pacific Light.
Money, as always, is a problem.
--Joe
When I bought my boat, it was advertised to come with a windvane. It ended up being "pieces of a windvane." I am the proud owner of 2/3 of an ATOMS. Although I might try and fabricate the remaining portion, I'd rather sell what I have as spares to someone with a complete ATOMS vane, and use the money toward a new one.
I'd love to hear recommendations of various gear.
I really don't understand not being able to steer with sheet to tiller. We've had Tehani steering that way for several days at a time. Including a 3 day passage when the sheet to tiller gear did ALL the steering other than while we were crossing the roads offshore Galveston- then WE steered ;)
Here's a video Laura shot of us in the open gulf. Winds increased to where we were under a reefed main and reefed jib- never even touched the sheet to tiller adjustments for over 24 hours. We did have an occasional time where a wave would knock used off and we'd have to manually return to course, but then the surgical tubing took over again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhBRB1qkpk&feature=related
And here's one of Tehani in Mississippi Sound, sailing free- you can see the control being picked off the main sheet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg&feature=related
I've never used it dead downwind so can speak for that, but from close hauled out to a beam reach, it works great
Pretty much only two things can make a boat NOT self steer well with sheet-to-tiller gear (or really ANY system):
sail imbalance
hull imbalance/yaw resistance
Letcher devotes quote a bit of his book to yaw resistance and its importance to getting a boat to self steer, as well as how to measure it for a particular boat. If yaw resistance is out of the range that "allows" self steering, Letcher further addresses how to correct.
What amazes me is how seldom THIS part is discussed - has anyone with troubles getting sheet to tiller gear to work MEASURED this hull metric to determine if there is a corrective action that is needed to properly 'balance' the hull?
If so and the boat's yaw resistance is not in the sweet spot, she likely won't self steer WELL with any set-up, whether windvane, sail feedback systems or electronic autopilot. I believe that was Letcher's conclusion, not my own.
Once it is known that the hull itself is self steerable, all bets are still off if the sails are not balanced.
I don't know about the CD25D's, but the Aleutka SHOULD be able to be made to self steer - Letcher wrote an entire chapter of his book about it. One should be able to reproduce his results pretty closely, and if not, it might be instructive to ask the question "why won't she do it?"
There is a reason, if you care to find it.
I agree with Charlie; though I've never used it for days at a time, I do know that Pat Henry, during her solo circumnavigation, used sheet to tiller gear to successfully sail part of the way after her wind vane broke and she had worn out her second or third electronic autopilot. Her remark when she tried it was "I cannot believe how well this works, and it was so simple to do; wish I'd tried it long ago."
Charlie, in your video of self steering, it looks like you took a line from one side of the cockpit to the other, with surgical tubing on one end? I would really like to try this setup whe it warms up. I still am really confused though on how to get all this to work together. I hope everyone is well out there. Marc
Yep- amber surgical tubing ( I should point out here- bungee cord does NOT work well) straight out of the books. Here's a link to a great write up, with pics , of exactly how our gear is made. (Not my website)
http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml
It's really fascinating to sit and watch the stuff work. VERY little movement in the whole system, as you can probably see in the videos, particularly the second one..
I must admit that I need to get some more surgical tubing.... I used the portion I had to replace the old stuff on my Hawaiian sling and have substituted shock cord for it. Perhaps that and some careful attention to other details like friction will help out.
Even using shock cord, the boat has steered herself on all points other than broad reaching...That's been the tough one. I'm sure if I keep working on it, I'll get it, but I can't deny that I'm still attracted to the idea of a separate windvane, expensive they may be.
Quote from: jmwoodring on January 24, 2011, 11:05:34 AM
I must admit that I need to get some more surgical tubing.... I used the portion I had to replace the old stuff on my Hawaiian sling and have substituted shock cord for it. Perhaps that and some careful attention to other details like friction will help out.
Even using shock cord, the boat has steered herself on all points other than broad reaching...That's been the tough one. I'm sure if I keep working on it, I'll get it, but I can't deny that I'm still attracted to the idea of a separate windvane, expensive they may be.
I'm going by memory here since my copy of the book is not on the boat at the moment, but for the Aleutka, didn't Letcher have to use a force demultiplier (a kind of reverse tackle to give mechanical DISadvantage) to get to her steer broad off using the genny for input? Have you tried that?
The website I listed gives methods of doing just that-A power demultiplier.
The neat thing about about the gear for sheet to tiller is you can put it all in a grocery bag ;D ;D
I must mention- we also have a tiller pilot, which we use a good bit. IT steered us on our 29 hour sail crossing from Appalachicola to Anclote Key. So we do use more modern stuff part of the time :D
One thing about Tehani, and I'm sure an Ariel is the same- she's so easy on the helm the electric tiller pilot doesn't work very hard usually, so uses little power-usually.
I haven't tried the reverse tackle yet but that's another good thought.
Here's another question:
In Letcher's book, in the part that is talking about broad reaching with sheet-to-tiller, he mentions sailing with main and genoa, with his genoa sheet led through the end of his boom/in place of the main sheet? Has anyone tried this arrangement? What exactly IS this arrangement?
Ok. So my budget is around $2000. My options are (as I see them):
Norvane for my boat $1900. New with 5 year warranty, custom installation tubes. Lightweight appropriate for my small displacement boat and low aspect stern. Stainless steel mounting is strong, and stable. Easy to repair. Reputable company that will (hopefully) be around to purchase parts from.
Mr. Vee $1600. Brand new, Ultra lightweight materials and least expensive windvane. Parts made of carbon fiber and plastic gears are very light but potentially weaker than stainless. Harder to fabricate if broken. Mr. Vee seems legitimate, but I have doubts about the company's staying power.
Used Monitor by Scanmar. $2000 Lightly used and in like-new condition. No warranty but a time-tested product backed by a solid company. Good resale value. The boat that it is currently installed on is a double ender of similar size, though larger displacement (25' pilot cutter). At 50 lbs, the gear and brackets will be on the heavy side, but I think this is still within my weight range and will at the least be very sturdy.
The devil's in the details. I can't fashion a trim-tab style windvane because of my kick-up rudder. So servo-pendulum it is.
But, I have no inboard engine; only an outboard mounted on an offset bracket. SO,
(http://stpete.boatshed.com/images/_autoimage.php?src=41602_BoatPic_Stern.jpg&watermark=y&quality=80&caption=%28C%29%202011%20Boatshed.com%20)
unless I mount the windvane off center (which doesn't seem like a good idea, even if it would work), the outboard and bracket have to go. There's just not enough room back there for a big windvane and all the tubing.
(http://stpete.boatshed.com/images/_autoimage.php?src=41602_BoatPic_Cockpit.jpg&watermark=y&quality=80&caption=%28C%29%202011%20Boatshed.com%20)
So, what do you think?
Is a windvane really worth getting rid of my motor? Or should I go for it and sail engineless?
This is going to take some heavy thought on my part. Luckily, I'm in no rush to decide.
Trim tabs can work quite well with a kick up rudder... I've installed several Autohelm clone vane gears this way and the instrument activated (like bike cables) are able to kick up and go down without changing adjustment.
On the other hand if you go with a servo pendulum having it off center is not a problem at all as they work just as well off center as they do centered.
Keep an eye out for a used ATOMS as used they go for around $400...
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Hey Bob
I actually have an ATOMS, or half of one. One of the reasons that I bought my current boat was that it was advertised as including a self steering windvane, though uninstalled. Due to my own lack of foresight, I didn't realize it was missing the mounting bracket, rudder, and steering linkage until I had already made my offer and paid for the boat. Should've asked to see the windvane beforehand....
If I had one to copy from, perhaps I could fabricate the missing pieces. As it is, I only have a single internet picture to go from. Instead, I'm just looking for someone with an Atoms to buy mine for spares.
I have an Atoms clone (home built copy) so just let me know what you are missing or send photos of what you have and I'll be happy to send you measurements etc to get you sorted out.
Feel free to contact me over at boat bits as I monitor that email daily...
Bob
at anchor in St Croix...
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
What windvane, manufactor do you use (if any?). Thre a whole lot of them out there. Usually on the aftermarket is an old type of Windpilot...and some home mades.
I've been looking on Hydrovane for 3.800 usd :P
What is your oppinion? for a 2 ton 26 footer?
My wish is to build one, at least my first one.
If I ever buy a commercial one, it will likely be a Cape Horn. That it was specifically initially designed for an Alberg 30 is HUGE selling point for me, plus I like the design. I like the idea of supporting Yves Gelinas, also.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 29, 2011, 01:14:56 PM
My wish is to build one, at least my first one.
If I ever buy a commercial one, it will likely be a Cape Horn. That it was specifically initially designed for an Alberg 30 is HUGE selling point for me, plus I like the design. I like the idea of supporting Yves Gelinas, also.
FWIW, I'm inclined to agree with you about the Cape Horn. I had the pleasure of meeting Yves once in Annapolis (it was cold and rainy on the first day of the Sailboat Show, and he had plenty of time to chat), and he's really passionate about his product. Clearly a man who loves his work, and therefore worth supporting.
In addition, a friend installed one on his Cape Dory 28, and he said Yves was very helpful any time he called with questions about installation and adjustment. Unfortunately my friend discovered that he had to rebuild his boat's rudder, so he never got to sail with the vane.
When I sailed to Bermuda last year, the Cape Dory 33 we were on had a Monitor, which worked very well (better than the Raytheon autopilot that crapped out on us).
I've got plans for two different home-made vanes, but I don't think I've really got the technical skills required to make one that would actually work.
--Joe
Quote from: Oldrig on October 29, 2011, 02:32:40 PM
I've got plans for two different home-made vanes, but I don't think I've really got the technical skills required to make one that would actually work.
--Joe
Good time to build those skills, eh? As my nephew, Mike, says, "Activity Breeds Results."
One thing's for sure...you'll NEVER build one if you don't try. Who cares if it works or not, though I'm betting it would.
Yes the Cape Horn is high up on the "want" list! I also like Yve's...
The benefit with Hydrovane is the "none lines in the well" and can be mounted offset = easier on my kind of boat, with transom hung rudder.
I have tried to make one my self, and I think I can make it work ??? But on my comming voyage, think it would be safer/ better with an allready tried out model.
I got an idea from PBO English boat mag. By using a bicycle, and parts from it. Sorry but don't have the Mag. maybe google? But think about it ::) The fork will be the vaneholder, the "pedals part" will be the rudder part and so on...
Hope you understand my English?!
Any one have any info, comments on the South Atlantic wind vane?
http://www.south-atlantic.com.ar/wind_vane_self_steering/wind_vane_self_steering.html
Here's my ol' prototype ;D Big plans from a bicycle...
here's one more for the homemade...
Quote from: ntica on October 27, 2011, 02:28:49 PM
I've been looking on Hydrovane for 3.800 usd :P
What is your oppinion? for a 2 ton 26 footer?
Thats a LOT of money for self steering... try building one and if you don't like it than look at used windvanes. You should be able to find something good for half that price.
For a 26 foot boat you also need to think about the weight of the unit. Both the Aries and Monitor vanes are relatively heavy... that's why the Pacific Light vane was specifically designed to be less than half the weight of the Monitor, so it would work well on smaller boats. A Monitor is fine on a bigger boat - I had one on a 38 ft sloop and it was great. But its too heavy for a 26 footer in my opinion... look for something lighter.
Hello Bill. About the weight consern. I've been in contact with most of the mentioned manufatorer. And none!!! see this as a problem. most of smaller sailboats have alot more weight on the stern. without any self steerer. The Danish Aries mano. did a circum nav. round cape Horn. in a similar boat as my IF.
Aries is very strong and can do a capzise and still work.
expensive. 3300 EUR
Monitor is a great windvane. and also fit my IF superb. Many are using them on Folkboats. cost: 4000USD...But here's a vat, tax to pay in Sweden. for overseas shipment. even more money lost.
Hydrovane is fantastic. even mount it offcenter, without any attached lines in the well. almost 6000 USD to my door. this Hydrovane would I prefer the most, second the Aries. About the Windpilot. yes many on IF boats, Atlantic crossings and so on. but would it survive a knockdown? and heard about some damping disseffects. I contacted Peter about this, and he sead none of them is true, ratio 2:1 same as monitor (if I'm not wrong?!) And then the fantastic Cape Horn from Yve's, my hero. yes definitly but I don't like the "outboard" model, for some reason, and tax to pay here in Sweden seem like a bad idea. it's a huge investment. but nessecery I think. I'm not capable to build a safe one myself so... Denmark is 30km from my home so Aries is high up. what you say?
Quote from: ntica on November 21, 2011, 08:10:02 AM
Hello Bill. About the weight consern. I've been in contact with most of the mentioned manufatorer. And none!!! see this as a problem.
Maybe it's just my cynicism showing, but that's not really surprising. They want to sell wind vanes.
Weight in the ends of small boats can be a BIG problem. A lot depends on transom shape, but setting a boat by the stern even a few centimeters can be drastically detrimental to her handling and certainly to her speed.
To give an idea how sensitive this can be, here are two (related) examples. A friend of mine was a avid SJ 21 racer, and he once told me that 'in the groove.' he could observe 'significant' boat speed differences simply by changing his weight distribution from one buttock to another as he sat still in the cockpit.
Yes, the SJ 21 is a light racer not a heavyish full keeler, but the principle still applies.
I put this to the test on my little trailer boat, and found not only do such slight weight (trim) changes change boat speed, but also helm balance - to a noticeable degree. I can change that boat's helm balance in light wind from a lee helm to a weather helm (just slightly to weather of neutral) by moving forward in the cockpit a mere 2-3 centimeters.
Again, this a light boat, so perhaps it is exaggerated, but putting weight astern is perhaps something you should consider very carefully. Just because others do it does not, by itself, make it a good idea.
And finally, I'll let my sheet-to-tiller bias show...if you lack funds for a vane gear right now or cannot find one 'suitable' to your required specifications, why not consider sheet-to-tiller self steering? There are a couple of threads on sailfar and other sites on the internet that discuss it, and to start experimenting, you probably already have the necessary pieces (ie, not money to outlay, or very, very little).
In other words, $0-20 US for self-steering seems MIGHT attractive to me compared to $3000-6000...at least in the interim period while you figure out what vane will work best for you and find one on the used market.
Just some thoughts ...
Capt. Smollett; Once again I find myself in agreement with you. I Selected the Windpilot Pacific Light for the exact resons you cite. It weghs just 26 lbs.. Further the design allows the vane and the servo pendulum to be replaced with 4mm plywood and a 1x4 board respectatviley. The performance has been superb. The pendulum began to fail as I approached Grenada, butshe got me there. a simple weld fixed it. There is a definite learning curve involved for peak performance. My best advice is to watch the vane in action and adjust until she pulls equally both to port and starboard. balance is critical the smaller the the arc of the vane the smoother the course. I had a Hydrovane on a Nick 32 and it got the job done but its a lot of weight aft. Upon getting back home I immediatly moved the batteries forward and down next to the sink drain, and moved the sea anchor, drogue, and parafanelia forward to the starboard cockpit locker, and then moved fenders etc to the lazorette. When at sea the anchors and chain are stored amidships allowing the bow to rise to the waves. The only drawback being that the boat sometimes sails off the waves and dives in. For anyone planning to go offshore think carefully about keeping weight away from the ends of the boat. Fair winds Phil
I do appriciate your adwise. It seem like you're know what you're talking about. One of many reasons why I like "sailfar". will check this up carefully.
Ntica; If you liive near Goteborg, Look up Jonas and Ingrid Akerblom who made an incredible trans Atlantic voyage aboard their 25' self constructed sailboat Ouhm.
Phil. will check this one up! thanx!
anyone live near by "Annapolis"???
ntica; I will be going to Solomons Md. about 80 km south of Annapolis come spring, if nothing better comes by Phil
Agree with Bill that it seems like the price is quite high for a used one.
I've seen two wind vane setups for sale in Maine in the past couple years, both of brands that I recognized at the time but am not sure I remember correctly... (one may have been a Aries?) in the $500 range. I realized that was a good deal and considered pursuing one, but didn't really need it yet (as much as other things). [Didn't go inspect them, so actual condition was unknown, and likely an issue at these prices.]
Other thought is that Tania Aebi had a Monitor on her [5,400 lb] Contessa 26 (http://www.co26.com/about/whats-a-contessa-26) (similar hull form to the folkboat), and it seemed to work well for her. Perhaps it helps that the boat design has fairly full quarters and transom, and not much overhang--and may be able to handle the weight better than a form with a finer stern and longer overhangs?
The Cap Horn windvane is an excellent choice in my opinion, not only because of the product itself but also because of the outstanding services et communications with Yves Gelinas and his company.
Though the installation is not an easy one and if you do not do it yourself be extremely careful who you hire. If you leave in the Bay Area, in CA, I strongly recommend with Yves advice to avoid a certain guy who pretends to be an expert but has not yet rigged his own Cap Horn in 8 years...and has "butchered" some jobs he did on some boats.I will gladly inform anyone who this person is, just get in touch with me.
I want to tell you . There's an Aries for sale in US for 500 USD. needs to rebuild. cheap anyhow, I would have bought it but it's to complicated, the seller don't want any p&P. just cash money when picked up... so I let you in on it. If someone interested let me know and I provide you with adress and phone nr.
here's a cheap windvane in sweden.
http://www.blocket.se/blekinge/Oljekylare__Vindroder_37327338.htm?ca=23_3&w=3
I only know what I have read but Olle Landsell says, in his book about singlehanding from sweden to the west indies and back in a 20' "Havsfidra",
"Buy the best windvane you can find. If you can't afford it, stay home another year and save up more money!"
My favorit book! still on it's shelf! As I mentioned I will try the Steersman so...
How are things seahusky?
Quote from: ntica on December 02, 2011, 01:09:20 PM
My favorite book! still on it's shelf! As I mentioned I will try the Steersman so...
This was the book that also got me dreaming about "sailfar" when I was a teenager! ;)
Maybe I should have elaborated on my previous post.
My opinion is that (if the steersman is not satisfactory) although it may feel funny to pay the same for a windvane as you did for the boat this is not the place to be cheap. Like when I am in the mountains and a storm hits, I am sooo glad that I bought the best, strongest tent that is for sale and not just a
good one!
QuoteHow are things seahusky?
Thanks for asking!
I plan to finally get my feet wet on sunday. I will report back here how it goes.
I was checking out the Norvane selfsteer, looks like a fine piece of gear for a resonable price. and well tested. (yes I', still into the windvane, if the Steersman isn't realiable?!)
I have recived many thoughts about the steersman and well over 80% saes it donsn't work good enough for longer cruisng, go to sleep and leave it alone etc...worries me. Have to get a trust worhty steersman!
For the DIY here's a good german link.
http://www.windautopilot.de/_de/0_prod/allg.html
Found this exellent site selfsteering gear and sheet to tiller. explains it all?!
http://sites.google.com/site/crisflopt/navegacao/self-steerling
Quote from: ntica on November 23, 2011, 01:29:29 AM
Phil. will check this one up! thanx!
anyone live near by "Annapolis"???
I live within fifty miles of Annapolis, MD, and I keep my Bristol 29.9 on the West River, a little south of Annapolis. Shoot me a PM; I plan to be much more active on SailFar in 2012 and after.
ntica, grog for that site!