sailFar.net

I was considering putting together my own LED anchor light as my power budget numbers simply will not come in line.

Doing some surfing I came across a small company out of Fiji, who was making various lighting products.

  Here is a quote from their web site;

[color=0fee0332]"Bebi (pronounced mbambi in Fijian) ultrabright white LED Light Assemblies have been engineered and tested in the Samoan, Tongan, and Fiji Islands by experienced (20 years) cruising sailors and have been tested over the course of the last four years on a variety of boats.  By using tinned pigtail leads, they can be used with impunity in the elements instead of trying to rely on the improbability of waterproofing an automotive socket.  Because of this, and their inherent LED technology, they are also a good choice for a stinkpot, which will often loose an incandescant navigation light when a cold wave hits.

Our cruising has shown that lights will only fail when they are most needed (which, in this part of the world, is typically in the middle of an on-shore gale, surrounded by poorly charted reefs).  To prevent this, the LED's within our light assemblies have a been electrically matched and incorporate a current regulator circuit. Our Masina Navigation Lights take the marine safety concept even further by having a 100% redundant lighting design.

Most LED's lights designed for either the automotive or decorative lighting market rely on a simple dropping resistor in their circuit, with the assumption that they will be used over a small voltage range.  In marine and off-grid applications, LED lights see a far greater voltage range.  As a consequence, either the dropping resistor has to be sized for the greatest possible voltage, with an attendant and linear decrease in light as the voltage drops into the "normal" discharging voltage level (12.25-12.75 volts), or the lifetime of the light unit is reduced.  Our testing has shown that a resistor that is sized for a 12.75 volt supply will lead to a module failure within 4 years! 

Not only do our lights contain a regulator circuit, but LED's have a very wide range of performance values.  All of the LED's within our light assemblies have been 100% tested AND matched for even greater improved reliability.

Our lights have not yet been submitted for testing by any nation's government agencies as navigation running lights (port, starboard, stern, and tri-color) or anchor lights, so you must install them at your own risk. It is our opinion that the risk of yachting without lights in an effort to save power is a much greater risk than irritating an insurance underwriter. Our opinion has been shared by over 400 cruising boats calling in Savusavu who saw our lights before they bought and used them after seeing their ultra bright white LED performance.

With our rigorous testing and a current regulator circuit, we feel confident in offering a lifetime replacement for our lights, with the proviso that they not be subject to greater than 16 volts DC (32 volts for the Namu and Bebe)."[/color]


I purchased their;



OWL15 LED Ultrabright MARINEAnchor/Masthead Light Assembly (http://www.bebi-electronics.com/owl.html) <=== poke here.

  They shipped promptly, and the light was well packaged.  I also bought 2 'doe' reading lights.

  In playing around with them, they are well put together and bright.

  I will post more when I get them installed.........

Awesome link, Craig! Your Google-Fu is incredible. :D I've never heard of these, but think that I wll be a customer really soon...

I liked this part of the quoted text:

Quote(which, in this part of the world, is typically in the middle of an on-shore gale, surrounded by poorly charted reefs).

LOL! :D:D

Compared to this freezing cold weather, that *almost* sounds better. :D

I've been waiting a while for the USCG to put their stamp of approval on LED navigation lights, so that I could enjoy the obvious benefits from them (less power draw from the house batteries, no need to worry about burnt-out bulbs, or changing them). The following lights are USCG approved for use on powerboats under 20 meters - I figure it is safe to use them on a sailboat which is under 10 meters. YMMV. :)

LED lights have been approved by the FAA and in use on airplanes that travel hundreds of mph for several years already, so I knew that they were up to the task for a small boat that might be making 6.5 knots on a good night. I've cobbled together my own LED's before, but having lights with the USCG Certification makes for a better choice in our too-litiginous society.

I received these as Christmas gifts, and will have them mounted and in use when I start sailing this spring, post-mast refit. Consider this a pre-review, based on having them in-hand. They aren't exactly cheap yet (what "marine hardware" is?), but have come waaay down in price, and, when you consider the benifits, I don't think they are too expensive at all. Here's what I have so far -

CSI Speco - Vision Series LED Navigation Light - 2 Mile Combo Bow Light (http://tinyurl.com/a35hw) - $60 from BoatersWorld.com (top picture, below). According to the package it came in, this light uses only 1/2 Watt of electricity (website says 1 Watt), and has a 50,000 hour service light. Unlike an incandescent bi-color, it is the LED's themselves which shine green and red, not the cover over them which imparts a color. There are 3 LED's of each color which shine through a type of "lens" that seems like it broadens the viewing angle to what it should be. The light seems brighter than my current incandescent bi-color bow light (I'll try to get a pic of this and post it later). The entire electrical component of this light is encased in what looks like epoxy - there is no way that I can see how water could get in and cause failure. That's Good, in my book.

CSI Speco - Vision Series LED Navigation Light Allround Pedestal Mount Stern Light (http://tinyurl.com/dkt23) - $70 from BoatersWorld.com (bottom picture, below). This light has the same 50,000 hour service life as the above light, but uses *3* Watts (I've never seen such a bright LED!). This light is easily as visible as my Davis anchor light ever was, even with it's brighter, higher-draw bulb in. I originally was going to use this as a masthead light, but since Craig posted the info about the Owl LED masthead light below, I think I will use that company's product instead, and will be using this light as a steaming/foredeck light. Christmas night, I set it on the roof of my car, wired to my jump-starter, and walked about 1/2 mile down the road from my mothers house. At that distance, the LED was noticeably brighter than a 40-60 watt incandescent household fixture that is next to my mothers front door.

All I need now is a LED stern light. :)

(http://a1672.g.akamai.net/7/1672/116/20070301/www.ritzcamera.com/graphics/products/1-83/196977383.jpg)

(http://a1672.g.akamai.net/7/1672/116/20070301/www.ritzcamera.com/graphics/products/1-41/196977441.jpg)

Cool! 8)

That really is cool, the only USCG approved LED lighting I knew of was that Tricolor rig at like $300 !

  I am experimenting with various glass condiment jars to find the right housing for my Owl.  ;o
  (It does not need a housing, but it won't hurt... .now, what am I gonna do with all this mustard......  ???

I seem to recall an article in Good Old
Boat on converting interior lighting to LEDs, Anyone remember which issue?

oded kishony

~~ _/) ~~

Didn't see that, oded, but I'll start a thread in Boat Bits on cabin lighting for us to talk about what we use...

Hey All, I might be speaking from ignance but what about using replacement LED light for car taillights.  I put them in all my custom bikes and they get ABUSED!!!.  Water leeking in and standing for months on end.  Vibration (HD) up the butt.  G-pulls from drag racing.  The only cost $10.00 at the auto parts store.  Am I missing something?  I am planning on putting them in my lights on the C25.  Cheers.

Quote from: djn on January 03, 2006, 11:53:54 PM
Hey All, I might be speaking from ignance but what about using replacement LED light for car taillights.  I put them in all my custom bikes and they get ABUSED!!!.  Water leeking in and standing for months on end.  Vibration (HD) up the butt.  G-pulls from drag racing.  The only cost $10.00 at the auto parts store.  Am I missing something?  I am planning on putting them in my lights on the C25.  Cheers.

  It is a great idea, the only problem is that they would not be USCG approved.  Not an issue really, unless you get a ticket  for improper lighting.  (a friend reciently paid $195 for just such a ticket).

  Worse yet, would be the aftermath of a collision.  Joe powerboater's lawyer looking for an out for his client who has just rammed you at night under way would love to find something like unaproved running lights.

  That said, like everything else in life I believe it is a risk decision we all should make on our own.  I have an 'unauthorized' anchor light that I hang from my backstay.  I can see it from much farther then my 'authorized' anchor light that draws 16x more current.

DJN, the main problem with using "replacement tail light" LEDs is that the LEDs output is pointing in one direction only, What is needed is an LED that shine in all direction (360º) equally. 

Maybe this will work if one can use an inverted reflective cone on top of the bulb?

Hi Dougcan, gotch'ya.  That makes sense.  I did find a good source for LEDs for the cabin lights.  They plug in like normal but lay flat and are bright.  Here is the link.  Cheers.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_prods.htm

Prefect Prefect Prefect
Just what I needed!!!!   :D

Now I can replace those auto bulbs in my cabin!!!

GREAT!  8)

 I would love to replace the bulbs on  my next boat, but I'm wondering, if could put a tri color on the mast head and be leagle if my boat came with the steamer light on the front of the pole and a light on each side of the bow pulpit, and one on the stern? I'll have to check the regs. but I was wondering about that lawyer thing.
Bill

Yes, as I understnad it you can.  You just have to display legal lights.

Ie; sailing ; either the tricolor masthead light OR the bow lights and stern light.

  Motoring; running lights on the bow, th elight on the stern, and fwd facing light on the mast.

You just can not display all together..... that is you can't if you want to be legal.

thanks, I figure the next boat I plan on taking it out to Bahama, USVI's and so furth.  I was told mast head was easier to spot. 
I figure I could get some of the led bulbs for the cabin lights, but I'm not so sure they will use less amps as the one I saw had like 6 leds in one bulb. I have a flash light with the LED bulb and it is super bright.
Bill

For a mast-top anchour light, I find that getting the $10 auto replacement bulb that has 6 or 8 LED on it and taking off the top plate to reveal the LED's soldered to the board works well. You can then carefully bend the "legs" on the LED's so that they point outwards in all directions. You now have 360degrees of good directional LED's. Lining the top of the anchor light casing with foil also helps.

For port and starboard nav lights, do NOT use white LED's. It is pointless and inefficient. Use red and green LED's respectively and that way the filter is not "taking away" anything from the light in order to make it red or green. In short 100% efficiency (well, nearly).


Alex.

I have a masthead tricolor/anchor/strobe light that was made by Orca Green Marine.  I like it a lot.  The draw on it is almost nothing, about a sixth of the incandescent anchor light it replaced, and it is far more versatile.

As for navigation lights, my understanding is that under sail you can use either a bicolor and stern light, or a masthead tricolor, but not both.  and under power, you can use an all-around white light and a bicolor or a bicolor, steaming light and stern light.

Craig - any updates you'd care to share on your Bebi light? I've been meaning to ask about it for quite some time... :)

Quote from: CapnK on February 25, 2007, 09:21:49 AM
Craig - any updates you'd care to share on your Bebi light? I've been meaning to ask about it for quite some time... :)

  I have used it several times, but just rigged up to hang from the backstay as it is not mounted on top of the mast. 

  It is very bright, and I have no doubt that it is much more visable then the incandescent bulb at the top of my mast (when it worked, it is burned out right now).

  The 'doe' cabin lights I bought are still in the bag... with so many projects going on, I have not got a 'roundtuit' yet.

________________________________________

OBTW, do not buy the conventional light fixture with the screw on plastic top (can not really call it a lens).  I went aloft to change out a bulb, and the old one crumbled in my hand and turned to powder.

It looked like the Atwood lens seen here from West Marine.

(http://images.westmarine.com/full/009_277_001_019.jpg)

I had been looking for LED double contact replacement bulbs that would fit in the  nav light housings on my boat. Didn't have much luck.

I believe only the Dr. LED bulbs are approved right now. But, they only fit certain types of fixtures. The LED bulbs tend to be very tall.

Here are some links I saved

http://www.doctorled.com/p2.htm

http://www.keysaver.nl/index.php?ID=2323

http://www.ledshoponline.com/marine_led.htm

http://www.mastlight.com/15up12VDC.html

http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=CAR

I don't believe any of the replacement bulbs are currently USCG approved.  As far as I know, the only LED navigation light fixtures that are USCG approved are dedicated LED-only designed fixtures, like the OGM or the LopoLights. The Doctor LED lights only say that the anchor light is USCG approved, from what I saw on the website.

There is some mention of the bulbs meeting CG requirements here


http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?fno=400&cart=327289770059876&group=851

Colored LED bulbs satisfy all brightness, distance (2 nm), and arc requirements set forth by the US Coast Guard for vessels less than 50m (65 ft.) in length

White LED bulbs satisfy all brightness, distance (2 nm), and arc requirements set forth by the US Coast Guard for vessels less than 12m (39 ft.) in length and may be used in stern and anchor lights on vessels less than 50m in length

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 27, 2007, 04:33:44 PM
I don't believe any of the replacement bulbs are currently USCG approved.  As far as I know, the only LED navigation light fixtures that are USCG approved are dedicated LED-only designed fixtures, like the OGM or the LopoLights. The Doctor LED lights only say that the anchor light is USCG approved, from what I saw on the website.

From what I gather from reading all those links in this thread, the USCG just doesn't approve bulbs.  They only approve entire assemblies.

Of course, the way I understand things, USCG approval is NOT a requirement.  Meeting the visibility standards is.  I think USCG approval just means that they agree that a specific light complies with the rules.  Of course, I'm told that this could still become an issue in a court of law if you are ever asked to PROVE that your nav lights meet standards.  I personally wouldn't stress about it; but I'm generally a  pretty laid back kinda guy.

The Bebi light made in Fiji states/guarantees a range of visibility of only one mile as a minimum.
The one I have is the ones made from LEDshoponline.com as linked a few posts above this one. It's a bit hard to row far away to determine it's range, but from radio conversations at night it appears to have a range of about 5 miles when 8 metres above the water - all that for 3 watts! I'm very happy with it.

http://www.sealite.com.au/products/product.php?prod_code=SL15

I use an LED anchor light from Sealite. I notice though that they are no longer advertising them as "anchor lights". Perhaps because they were at the time not technically approved re CG requirements etc. Silly really, because the product is easily superior to most old technology lights I've seen.  Anyway, I have used one for the past 3 years and it is outstanding & very bright. Easily seen several nautical miles away. Worth a look. Best, Ged 

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 27, 2007, 04:33:44 PM
I don't believe any of the replacement bulbs are currently USCG approved.  As far as I know, the only LED navigation light fixtures that are USCG approved are dedicated LED-only designed fixtures, like the OGM or the LopoLights. The Doctor LED lights only say that the anchor light is USCG approved, from what I saw on the website.

I have their red/green replacement bulbs in my Aquasignal 25 housing and they are very noticeably more visible than what I took out. I no longer have to go forward to see if my lights are on! I can tell by the red/green sheen on the bow wave!!

I met a guy who uses an anchor light from Bedi Electronics that is made up of multiple LEDs and puts out more light than any other anchor light I've seen, substantially more.  It is inexpensive, $32.50 and well made.  They call it the Owl.  Here's the link.

http://www.bebi-electronics.com/

The company is located in Fiji and my friend says they are easy to deal with.  Shipping, is a flat rate $6.50 unless you are in a rush and want to pay for the faster shipping.

They have a number of other interesting products, and there is a how to on their website showing how to replace the anchor light in a masthead tricolor which is fairly interesting.  I'm going to order one of these next week and use it as a second anchor light or a cockpit light.

(http://www.bebi-electronics.com/owlpics/owl_on_fnt_lg.jpg)

Joe,

  I went ahead and split your post off of the solar thread and merged it here. 

The Bebi electronics products are fantastaic!  I use my 'Owl' and I LOVE it.

We ordered from them last week. Should be getting ours pretty soon. Laura ordered it, but we didn't get the Owl- She ordered one that had a cig lighter plug attached. Pretty much same deal. It's the Owl with a 5 meter cord already attached it seems.

Quote from: barnaclephill on March 08, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
The Bebi light made in Fiji states/guarantees a range of visibility of only one mile as a minimum.

Actually, Bebi states two miles, meeting COLREGS.

Our Lulu Kaukaua  came yesterday..

The Lulu Kaukaua is the Owl light, with the 5 meter cord and lighter plug already attached. $47 even including shipping from Fiji.


Laura took it to the marina this evening and compared it to a Davis. She says the Davis may as well have not been lit in comparison, the Lulu Kaukaua  is that bright. And .09 amps draw


I think our kerosene anchor light is history.

Just FYI-

DR. LED now makes USCG certified LED replacement bulbs for the AquaSignal Series 25 and 40 navigation lights.  This makes the Aquasignal 25 series one of the least expensive ways to get into LED navigation lights that are USCG certified.  While certification isn't REQUIRED, it is a good idea to have USCG Certified light fixture/bulb setups, since if you are involved in a collision and the lights on your boat aren't certified, you can be found liable for not having USCG compliant lighting.  :) Yes, there have been court cases that have hinged on this point... and a lot of money has been made/lost on it as well.

Charlie, my friend with the Owl came by when I was in Beaufort, NC and we were talking about it, but I couldn't see his boat because of the big cat stinkpot next to me, so I had to walk to the end of the dock.  It was like the sun coming out compared to the other anchor lights in the harbor.  That was when I decided I had to  have one.  Once I get it I'll try and get a picture comparing the brightness to my masthead anchor light.

Just a question about wether or not the LED version of nav. lights are legal etc. I'm getting ready to buy these for my boat but wanting to know if the LEDS would just be a waste of money.  I really like their low power consumption.  Marc

I would choose leds for running, steaming and especially anchor lights. 

If you can only afford one, choose anchor lights because they will be on the longest.

What kind are you looking at?

Marc, In an effort to fend off rehashing of opinions and observations about LED Nav. lights I am providing links to recent past discussions.

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2117.0

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=524.0

http://www.instructables.com/id/Circuits-for-using-High-Power-LED_s/

I'm looking to rplace my stern light, anchor light , steaming light and bow3 lights red and green, I feel the power that I save may run the charger for a torqueedo motor. (just a thought), I'm also planning on an inverter large enough to power a small micro wave.  I'm an electrician, but DC really throws me off, but I'll be able to catch on real quick.  I'm also planning on 2 12V DC batteries wired in parallel so that I have a whole of 12V power.  Maybe an 88 watt solar panel would be sufficient though have yet to do the calculations on that yet.  You guys are the greatest group of people that I have yet to meet I hope we can someday.  Marc

LED nav lights are great.  One of the least expensive way to get LED lighting that is USCG certified on boats the size of most here is to install AquaSignal Series 25 nav lights and then get the Dr. LED replacement LED bulbs for it.  A couple of dabs of dielectric grease, and you're good to go.  Keep the bulbs that came with the fixtures as backups. :)

My Xmas-gift Owl light (Thanks, Ma!) came in last week. (Along with some cool Fijiian stamps, a postcard, and wrapped in the Fiji Times newspaper. ;D )

For the past 5 days I have been using it as an internal cabin light (sorry, Michael! ;) ). It lights up the whole boat - I can even read in the pilot berth, which puts the book about 5 1/2 feet from the 2 LED's which shine in that general direction.

For an idea of just how bright they are, to the naked eye the Owl LED's are just as bright as the compact fluorescent bulb I normally use. While it doesn't throw out as much light overall as the CF bulb, it has only 1/8th to 1/10th the light-producing surface area as the CF, I estimate.

I also noted on the Bebi electronics website that they quote the actual USCG regs regarding nav lights: Bebi website (link) (http://www.bebi-electronics.com/specs.html#Certs).

The more I research it, the more I become convinced that the whole "but LED's aren't Certified lights..." argument has no real substantive basis whatsoever in any actual case law, and has just somehow become an internet meme of sorts in the online boating community.

Quote from: CapnK on February 03, 2009, 06:43:14 PM

the whole "but LED's aren't Certified lights..." argument has no real substantive basis whatsoever in any actual case law, and has just somehow become an internet meme of sorts in the online boating community.

(bold emphasis added)

Kurt,

While I agree with your statement completely, I wanted to mention that a couple of months ago, someone on SOME site (TSBB perhaps...Norm Blackwatch I'm thinking) posted a reference to an actual case that went against the anchored boat because the anchor light in use was not "certified."

Now I'll add the caveat that I did not personally read the case history referenced, so I don't know what happened, what was decided or why.  This does open the discussion, however, regarding the idea that it may not matter so much in the real world of lawyers, juries and judges what the USCG does or does not certify (**).

I offer this for discussion purposes only (perhaps in another thread); I'll continue to use my Dietz oil lamp as an anchor light or any other light I choose to use that is visible the proscribed distance.  I refuse to let my life be run by lawyers or anybody else who thinks "right" is determined in a courtroom.


(**) I've been in court enough to have witnessed many times the WORD "certification" used without any meaning.  The word itself is a meme of sorts.  But that does not stop it from carrying a LOT of weight for those upon which the meme has stuck.

{hijack off}

Objection! Hearsay...

...but I will go look for that, or post and ask Norm, to see if I can unearth the One Real Time this happened...

After that?

The Grail. ;)

Found this referenced while searching, thought it of enough interest to add here - a test of some different LED bulbs, I think intended only for interior use.

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=103101&#post580357

Quote from: CapnK on February 04, 2009, 08:18:53 AM
Objection! Hearsay...

...but I will go look for that, or post and ask Norm, to see if I can unearth the One Real Time this happened...

After that?

The Grail. ;)

I searched and could not come up with anything on TSBB

Same, me neither. Posted about it, asking...

It was a month or two ago, and I've noticed in the past that there is a 'black hole' window on TSBB where posts don't show up on search of the current active board OR the archives...I've always wondered about that.

I'm pretty sure that's where I read it (I don't read very many forums), so hopefully we can find it.

Or maybe I dreamed it ...

Sounds right - the Search results I received seem to have a gap with no results from between the past few weeks. to back 6-8 months ago.

Just as a heads up, according to Maine Sail, who had spoken with the owner of Dr. LED, only the Aqua Signal 40 LED anchor light is currently USCG certified. The bulbs for the Aqua Signal 25 series are NOT certified by the USCG for use in any fixtures as of yet.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 05, 2008, 11:48:11 PM
Just FYI-

DR. LED now makes USCG certified LED replacement bulbs for the AquaSignal Series 25 and 40 navigation lights.  This makes the Aquasignal 25 series one of the least expensive ways to get into LED navigation lights that are USCG certified.  While certification isn't REQUIRED, it is a good idea to have USCG Certified light fixture/bulb setups, since if you are involved in a collision and the lights on your boat aren't certified, you can be found liable for not having USCG compliant lighting.  :) Yes, there have been court cases that have hinged on this point... and a lot of money has been made/lost on it as well.

The question seems to be "what difference does it make if a fixture or bulb is USCG certified."

All certification means is that a test was done (by an independent lab as requested by manufacturer, the CG does not do the tests) and a device was found to pass.  The converse is absolutely NOT true - a device that is NOT certified may meet the requirements of the law (and would pass certification testing if done).

We see this with meds, particularly with pediatric meds.  FDA approval for a drug for a particular use does NOT mean it cannot/should not be used in other contexts..just that the testing for that context has not been done yet.  In fact, there are VERY VERY few meds "approved" for pediatric use, in part because most people are loathe to submit their children into clinical trials.

In other words, much of the talk about 'certification' is hot air...used as a marketing tool by the people who paid for the testing and sought the cert...at least that's the case in clinical trials of medications.  It seems to me to be the case in other areas as well, whether mechanical testing, fire hazard testing or, believe it or not, navigation light testing.

To Recap: Certified light means it has been tested and shown to meet the legal requirements.  A non-certified light may well meet the legal requirements; one cannot infer from the absence of certification that there is ANY deficiency with the operation of the light.  Until we see specific case law of decisions going against non-certified equipment, and that is the SOLE REASON for a specific decision, I don't think, and this is my opinion, one should pay much attention to USCG Certification on nav lights, so long as the visibility requirements are met.

FWIW,

  We used our OWL in the cockpit, hanging from the backstay.  I kept my (significantly less visible) 'legal' light at the masthead.

  The OWL was to keep us from getting run down by the drunken idiot in a stinkpot.  The 'legal' light at the masthead was only used to humor some pinhead with a badge local law enforcement officer if we were in an area where they were about.

Also,

  I have personally verified that my OWL is visible from over 3 miles at night....

Maybe I should.. in the interest of full disclosure.. mention that I was eating government recalled peanut butter on my toast when I was typing that...




















;)

I wasn't aware that jars of peanut butter were in anyway involved in the recall. Hope not cause I live on the stuff ;D ;D From what I've seen the recall was only for the "paste" made by that one company. They don't do peanut butter. Thankfully.

As for the gap in archives on TSBB. There is a period of time, which varies depending on frequency of posts, when posts are unavailable because they are in process of being moved to archives. Just how long they are unavailable and how many posts are involved, largely depends on how busy Phil is at the time.

There was also a gap created when TSBB experienced some problems with a server, writing zero length records. Many many posts were lost during that time.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 09, 2009, 06:03:43 AM
LED nav lights are great.  One of the least expensive way to get LED lighting that is USCG certified on boats the size of most here is to install AquaSignal Series 25 nav lights and then get the Dr. LED replacement LED bulbs for it.  A couple of dabs of dielectric grease, and you're good to go.  Keep the bulbs that came with the fixtures as backups. :)

That's how I did mine, except I already had the AquaSignal 25s. They just had very clouded lens that I replaced. DR. LEDs are quite a bit brighter than the stock 25 bulbs by the way.

Quite interesting that I can't use the LED bulbs- we have a combination red/green on the bow and they specifically state to NOT use the white bulbs in colored lens- use red behind red and green behind green. Leaves us out doesn't it?

Besides that, it would run about $150 bucks to change our three lights- Stern, steaming and combo bow. I can change a LOT of bulbs for that money ;)

I have consulted with the Iowa DNR and they said nothing on LED or not, just that it has to be visible for 2 miles.  So...guess what I am going with?  LED of course!!! Marc

Capn Smollet—

The major problem with using non-USCG certified bulb/fixture combinations is if you are involved in an accident.  The fact that you're using non-certified navigation lights will come up, especially if the other person is at fault.  I can think of several cases where this has been a major point in the case in determining liability. Their lawyers will argue that you're partially, if not wholly responsible, for the accident because you were using uncertified light fixtures. YMMV.  It isn't that the LED bulbs don't work or aren't bright enough... it is a legal point that can cause a lot of headaches.

Dan, We have been searching the web for the actual "cases" everybody keeps alluding to. Over on TSBB the discussion continues.

There has been a case that "Main Sail" has been involved with that he feels went better because the light was certified. But others feel that ultimately in litigation it will come down to proving the light could be seen irregardless of certification.

An attorney did a "LexisNexus" search for cases where certification alone was a deciding factor. This is what he posted, I am purposely not giving his name as I have not asked him if I could.

"I did a LEXIS search for "navigation light" near "certified" and turned up 326 reported cases in all state and federal courts. I searched those 326 for "negligence" which reduced the number to 26. Of those, I found no reported decisions involving a failure to use certified lights. I was able to find reported decisions involving a failure to display lights meeting the standards, but no issue of whether the lights had been certified."

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 04, 2009, 07:44:02 PM

  I can think of several cases where this has been a major point in the case in determining liability.

Can you provide citations for those cases, please?  We've been trying to track down these cases all day (as Tim alluded in his post), and as yet, none have emerged in which this issue was a deciding factor.

As most of you know I'm restoring a '73 Venture 242.  Originally it had the combination red/green light on the bow.  What I would like to do is put these on the side of the boat such as that on a catalina.  Is there a rule governing on how far back or how close forward to the bow that these need to be?  I'm also considering a trilight on the mast head when underway.  It's starting to get warmer here and spring is knocking on the door.  And I'm getting very restless I want to finish her and get her into the water this year.  Marc

I don't think so Marc, on a Pearson Triton they are located on both sides of the dog house.  I opted for having them right together on the bow pulpit though, makes wiring less complicated and in the case of a Triton, they don't get covered by the foresail.

On the Meridian they were also on the sides of the house- VERY bad place for them. Heeled, the leeward light was totally blanketed, either by the sail or the boat itself.

I put a combination light under the bow pulpit, as I did on my previous boat. NOTHING blocks that.

Here's the installation on the prior boat -

Wow! never even thought of that guys, I guees my new light will be a combo and put back where the old light was, grogs to both of you!!

Seems like LED navigation lights have gotten much cheaper lately. Now you have ones made by Attwood, Perko, Aqua Signal and Innovative Lighting for about $50 or so.

They're being advertised as having 2 nm visibility and sold at West Marine and Boaters World. I'd feel pretty safe installing them. Who could fault you?

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to explain to a jury that my nav lights were built in Fiji, even if they are better than the above. Proving they met the visibility requirement would be difficult or impossible.

Anyway, I still haven't found a deck mount LED stern light. Anybody know of one? All I see is horizontal mount stern lights or all-around stern lights for powerboats

I saw this one, but wouldn't be comfortable with it

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/STAINLESS-STEEL-BOAT-LED-NAVIGATION-STERN-LIGHT-00147_W0QQitemZ330306157197QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090207?IMSfp=TL090207138001r9026


(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/commanderpete/sternlight.jpg)

 ;D ;D

Well, your Aqua Signal lights were most likely built in China. As most likely were all  the others.

;D ;D

Besides, I have all intentions of NOT being in the good old USA this time next year. Our plans are to leave here roughly July or so an not come back for a year ( or two)

And my light from Fiji is our anchor light, not the nav lights. We used this one for quite a while to good success. Two trips to Florida and return via ICW- the LED lights are certainly much brighter ( and simpler also)

Love the photo Charlie   :)

Thanks Tim- That was taken at sunrise, at anchor in Barataria, Louisiana, about 15 miles west of Harvey Lock. Harvey Lock lets you into the Mississippi River at New Orleans and is mile zero of the Gulf Intercoastal Waterway. Miles go up from there both east AND west.  Mileage signs read WHL and EHL for west or east of there.

One of our favorite anchorages on the passage to Florida. Here's a picture of a painting Laura did from that picture.

Wow  Very Nice

This whole business about "approved" navigation lights is sorta aggravating

We should be comparing nav. lights like any other product.

How bright is the light? Does it last? Is it a good value? Is it ugly?  Shouldn't have to worry whether the mfgr. paid for the certification process.

Why is it so difficult to test how bright a light is?

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 09, 2009, 05:55:36 PM
Thanks Tim- That was taken at sunrise, at anchor in Barataria, Louisiana, about 15 miles west of Harvey Lock. Harvey Lock lets you into the Mississippi River at New Orleans and is mile zero of the Gulf Intercoastal Waterway. Miles go up from there both east AND west.  Mileage signs read WHL and EHL for west or east of there.

One of our favorite anchorages on the passage to Florida. Here's a picture of a painting Laura did from that picture.

WOW I think I like the painting better Laura, it has a very magical quality about it. I know you are counting the days until that is what you see EVERY night  ;)

Quote from: Cmdr Pete on February 09, 2009, 06:05:15 PM
Wow  Very Nice

This whole business about "approved" navigation lights is sorta aggravating

We should be comparing nav. lights like any other product.

How bright is the light? Does it last? Is it a good value? Is it ugly?  Shouldn't have to worry whether the mfgr. paid for the certification process.

Why is it so difficult to test how bright a light is?

Pete, I think that is how this all got started, some of us choose functionality (read brightness) over certification.

"The Crown be damned! "   ;)

She said to tell you "yes, I am"

and so am I ;D

And here's probably my favorite painting of anchor lanterns she has done. This one is a pastel, the first one is an acrylic.

Great paintings :o ;D I had to do a double take at the pastel almost looked like a photo.

An update concerning the Bebi Owl light. We are currently at anchor at Bradento Beach, Fl.   

The other night at about 2200 we were boarded by the USCG and Florida Marine Patrol doing an anchor light check on the approximately 30 boats at anchor here.

The Coastguardsman was extremely impressed with our Bebi Owl. He told us it was the brightest  and most visible of any in the anchorage and wrote down the info so he could recommend the light to others. He wasn't at all concerned about Coast Guard approval stamps- just that it was working and working WELL.

By the way, they stopped by us because we were still awake and sitting in the cockpit. We now have a boarding paper stating we had ZERO violations.


So I suppose the light works as advertised.

 ;D Yahoo! One for the good guys!

The problem that you can run into using non-USCG certified lights is a legal one.  I know of at least three cases where the status of the lights came into play as part of the determination of liability.  If you are using uncertified lights, and you are hit by another boat, then you run the risk of being found either partially or wholly liable, regardless of whether your lights are brighter than the USCG certified ones.  The expert witnesses to defend against such liability are very expensive.

CJ    Thanks for the info. I'll be getting one. I'm sure it'll be better than my solar yard light (Bahamian anchor light  ;D)

Frank- we are right now anchored next to two boats using those solar powered lights - believe me, they are pathetic. Not justin comparison to ours, but even in comparison  to our old kerosene lantern.

BUT if they can see you, they are a lot less likely to run into you in the first place  ;)

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on November 06, 2009, 07:16:27 PM

  I know of at least three cases where the status of the lights came into play as part of the determination of liability. 

Case histories, please.  Last time I asked, you did not produce them.

We've had lawyers do a search for such cases and did not find anything.  If you have citations, it would be very helpful.

Thanks.

Capn Smollett?

It is pretty common in most night-time boating accidents for the lawyers to have expert testimony on the lighting.  This was the case in the Clear Lake trial in California... and most of the other trials I've heard of, read about... I'd point out that in the three cases I know of personally, the lighting was all USCG certified, so there was little the defense could do about it... but if the lighting had not been USCG certified, I am pretty sure things would have turned out quite differently.

Dan, in the cases you speak of, the lights may have seemed like a deciding factor, but a light shown by expert testimony to be sufficiently bright may have proved  visibility just as well. I know you feel sure that USCG certified is the only way to go, but many other opinions legal or otherwise may carry just as much weight and precedent.

In the Clear lake case as it turned out the lights became a moot point behind the credibility issue.

I think that Charlie's story about his recent encounter with the USCG regarding his Bebi light goes along way in my mind to show that this is the way to go for an anchor light.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on November 07, 2009, 11:14:11 AM
I'd point out that in the three cases I know of personally

But you won't cite them?

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on November 07, 2009, 11:14:11 AM

It is pretty common in most night-time boating accidents for the lawyers to have expert testimony on the lighting.

Testimony on lighting is FAR different from certification/non-certification being the deciding issue.

If it is so common, why did legal search an actual attorney did not turn up ONE SINGLE CASE where certification of an anchor light was the basis for liability in a court ruling?

Quote

  This was the case in the Clear Lake trial in California

Straw man.,..the issue in Clear Lake was whether or not the lights were ON at the time of collision, not whether or not they were 'certified.'  And, they were not anchor lights, but running lights.

Quote

the lighting was all USCG certified, so there was little the defense could do about it... but if the lighting had not been USCG certified, I am pretty sure things would have turned out quite differently.

Now I know you can see the problem with this point.  "It was not an issue, but if it had been an issue, it would have been an issue."  This is a good classic example of a "Begging the Question" Fallacy.

I'm sorry, Dan, I do NOT mean to be argumentative, but just because you are pretty sure things would have turned out differently had the lights in those three cases (which three? Can I read the court documents on those cases to see what the issues WERE?) if the lights had not been certified does not make it so.

The fact is that we have yet to uncover an actual case where either a judge or a jury decided a case on the basis of Coast Guard Certification of an anchor light.  That does not mean one does not exist, nor does it mean that it won't happen tomorrow, and you may rightly argue "do you want to be the test case by not using a certified light?"

There HAVE been cases where a major point was VISIBILITY of an anchor light, but even then, I don't think any mention of certification was raised (just because a boat uses a certified light, this fact alone does not mean it was VISIBLE, for a variety of possible reasons).

I'm saying "I don't think" here because I am going on memory of having read some actual case histories back in February when we discussed this last time.

I'd like to thank CJ for his report of the Bebi Owl light. Sounds like it works great and the coastguard were impressed. Good enough for me  ;)

We have Bebi lights on So It Goes and more often than not we are the brightest anchor light in the anchorage. We also have their tricolor... Over four years of daily use and it still shines bright! Excellent stuff.

Sadly USCG cert does not allow much for change for the better... Our European cousins have had self righting life jackets for twenty years while the long, expensive and short sighted USCG process makes it too expensive for companies to introduce new and better ways of doing things. Like many cruisers we know we have a full set of USCG approved life jackets which stay in a bag and use the non approved but much better European stuff.

As far as lawyers go... Shakespeare was right! It does not matter if your lights are legal, if you have n anchor ball showing the guy in the Donzi who is drunk can win providing he has deeper pockets than you do. Best thing is to avoid situations where you need lawyers entirely!


Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

A friend and I have been having this discussion for some time. He feels that it has to be USCG approved. His anchor light is 60' above the deck. Power boaters will never see it. Their mind is on the next fishing ground and the beer in the cooler.

My next purchase will be the Bebi Owl. I have all my nav light LED now at a very reasonable price. Way brighter than the USCG approved bulbs and less power draw.

Back in 2005 when I started this thread and ordered my Bebi Electronics anchor light, I planned to put it atop the mast.

  Over our cruise, I used it every night.  In anchorages where I anticipated being harassed I switched my old style light on too (often only for the first few hours, the likely boarding time for light checks).

  Never got any attention from the authorities.

Since we know the regular mast top anchor lights are not well seen, and lights mounted in the foretrangle, or even over the boom are much more likely to be seen by other boats close enough to matter.

  My plan is just to continue using the Bibi in the cockpit, and leave the old one up on the stick as a backup and to humor the authorities as necessary.

Quote from: s/v Faith on November 07, 2009, 09:49:11 PM
My plan is just to continue using the Bibi in the cockpit, and leave the old one up on the stick as a backup and to humor the authorities as necessary.

I agree with Craig. I turn on my masthead anchor light because it is the right thing to do and also hang one or two Davis mega-lights in the cockpit - usually one from the aft edge of the dodger (nice light in the cockpit) and one from my radar pole aft (nice lighting for the stern steps).

I've been looking for this for a long time and just found it - a LED replacement bulb for the Davis anchor light:

http://www.marinebeam.com/dameledre.html

With the auto-darkness sensor that turns it on and off, now it should be bright and little power consumption.

James Baldwin

James -

Those work good, I ordered one for a client and so have seen them in action. Big improvement over the hack I made to my Davis a couple years back in order to have the same capability. :)

Marinebeam is located just a couple hours away, near where Capt. Smollett used to live, IIRC. Based on first hand knowledge with the above mentioned client, I can vouch for them being helpful and responsive to customers, and knowledgeable about their products.

I just found a site with a really good selection of low voltage LED replacement bulbs and even some fixtures (interior) that might be of use.

Does anyone have experience with www.ledlight.com ?

Nice job! Grog! ;D

Quote from: haidan on January 11, 2010, 06:51:40 PM
I just finished making my own LED light

Can you give us a little more information on how you built those lights?

What kind of leds did you use?  Where did you get them?

Getting ready to order a Bebi OWL with photocell (http://www.bebi-electronics.com/owl.html ) for an anchor light on my little ship.  Being "electronically illiterate" I need help in determining what size solar panel to use for this light only  ????  
 
Any and all help appreciated!
Bob
CP23d

ps: I have read all the threads on this light at Sailfar...great site we have here, eh?

Quote from: boblamb on August 09, 2010, 10:33:34 AM
Getting ready to order a Bebi OWL with photocell (http://www.bebi-electronics.com/owl.html ) for an anchor light on my little ship.  Being "electronically illiterate" I need help in determining what size solar panel to use for this light only  ????  
 
Any and all help appreciated!
Bob
CP23d

ps: I have read all the threads on this light at Sailfar...great site we have here, eh?

  They are great lights, and I think you will be very happy with it.

So, as I understand it you are going to set up a panel to charge a battery just for your anchor light?

  If so, you would be fine with a very small battery, and a very small pannel.  The Owl by it's self draws less then a 100ma (IIRC) according to my Link battery monitor.

  Setting up a power system (even this simple) requires an energy budget.  This one is pretty easy.

Let's say that I am wrong, and it draws 200ma. (.2amps).  Is the winter it is likely to be on 12 hours a day in the winter... so that would be 12 x .2 = 1.4 amp hours.   This is your load.

Now, let's say that you really want to be conservative and plan for not having sun for 5 days....  To figure your storage capacity you need to multiply 5 x 1.4  = 7 amp hours.  Youl never want to plan to discharge your storage system by more then 50% so you are looking for a battery of a minimum of 14amp hours capacity.

  You also need to charge this battery.  Opinions on all of this vary, but the minimum capacity would be the ability to replace one night's use in one day.  That would be 1.4amp hours... and generally in the winter (time of max load) you are only going to see a couple hours of maximum charge... so you would really want to be able to replace the night's use in a couple hours... so let's say you need .7amps of current.

  P=IE, most panels are rated in Wats 5w /12v x .4 (well, really you use 17v, so let's call it .3a)....  .3x2 is not .7, but it is pretty close.

  So, a panel of an honest 5watts, and a battery of at least 14 amp hours...

Here is one panel for $75 (http://www.batterymart.com/p-5-watt-flat-solar-panel.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=ComparisonShopping).  Here is another for $49. (http://www.harborfreight.com/5-watt-solar-battery-charger-41144.html)

  Here is a battery that would work (http://www.batterymart.com/p-12v-14ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery.html).
(http://www.batterymart.com/images/products/sla/sla-12v14-f2_lg.jpg)
Really though, you can do better.  Go to a lawn and garden center and ask for a 'U-1' garden tractor battery.  They run around $20, and about 30 amp hours...

U-1 Tractor battery for $26 at Advance Auto.

(http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3582E/full/2050099_atc_u11_pri_detl.jpg)

Thanks mates;
  My plan is to put my boat on a mooring for a while...and I'd want to replace one night's use of the light each day via solar panel.
  I can swing the tractor battery, but wonder if the twin 12v batteries I already have on board would do the same thing with a 5 watt solar panel on them?

Appreciate the feedback
Bob

Quote from: boblamb on August 09, 2010, 12:58:48 PM
Thanks mates;
  My plan is to put my boat on a mooring for a while...and I'd want to replace one night's use of the light each day via solar panel.
  I can swing the tractor battery, but wonder if the twin 12v batteries I already have on board would do the same thing with a 5 watt solar panel on them?

Appreciate the feedback
Bob

Yes, they would work fine.  I was ASSuming you were taking about a 'from scratch' system.

  Having the 5w panel would be a good thing for the batteries anyway, as they will typically discharge just from sitting.

  With a dual battery system, what are your other loads?  How are the batteries configured? (I assume they are connected in parallel?  (both sets of terminals linked together as sets).

I do have 2 12v parallel batteries.  I have the basic navigation lights, a bilge pump that works mainly when my little Yanmar is running and the stuffing box is dripping.  And that's the main electrical on my Compac.

Thanks
Bob

Quote from: boblamb on August 09, 2010, 03:02:31 PM
I do have 2 12v parallel batteries.  I have the basic navigation lights, a bilge pump that works mainly when my little Yanmar is running and the stuffing box is dripping.  And that's the main electrical on my Compac.

Thanks
Bob

  Your system would benefit from a 5w panel.  You will not need a charge controller, as a 5w or 10w panel will not be able to overcharge your batteries.  Given that the bilge pump may cycle a couple times after you shut the motor down you may want to consider a slightly larger panel like 10 or 15 watts (which would also help re-charge your batteries when you return from a night sail with nav lights that does not include much motoring).

This site (http://www.altestore.com/store/Solar-Panels/1-to-50-Watt-Solar-Panels/c675/) has some good prices on 5 - 10w panels.

Kyocera panels have an excellent reputation (I have a 135w  Kyocera panel pending installation) and BP also makes a very good product.

(http://www.altestore.com/i/multimedia/images/100_ks10.jpg)
http://www.altestore.com/store/Solar-Panels/1-to-50-Watt-Solar-Panels/Kyocera-KS10-10W-12V-Solar-Panel/p6649/ (http://www.altestore.com/store/Solar-Panels/1-to-50-Watt-Solar-Panels/Kyocera-KS10-10W-12V-Solar-Panel/p6649/)

0.1 amps X 12 hours winter anchor lighting = 1.2 amp-hours power usage per day. 

Recharging is somewhat inefficient, so double that and you can estimate that you want to put 2.4 amp-hours in the system per day.  Its really not that inefficient but just being conservative.

On average, in a northern location, a typical solar panel gets about 4 hours of its rated capacity per day, depending on the weather and season.

Panels used to recharge 12V systems run at about 18 Volts.

If a solar panel is rated at 10 Watts, it puts out 10 Watts / 18 Volts = 0.55 amps.

At an average 4 hours a day, the solar panel will produce 0.55 amps X 4 hours = 2.22 amp-hours per day.  This is close to the target of 2.4 amp-hours and would probably work.

The 5W panel would be marginal, probably not enough in a long stretch of cloudy weather.

Anyone ever use this kind?
 http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|49497|1471364&id=1476138

Hmmmm...just notice that link doesn't show the item.  It's called iMob 5.5 watts, 400 mA...$53.99   

Since I started this thread, I have come to like my Bebe OWL anchor light more and more.

Hey Mates:
    I ordered and received my Bebi anchor light in a timely fashion.  I also ordered the 5w solar panel pictured in my previous post.   I've been testing them both for a couple weeks now.  Light comes on at sundown and goes off at sun up. Very bright on a dark night.  Solar panel keeps the battery up. Works like a charm.

Thanks for all the advice!
BobL

Quote from: boblamb on September 18, 2010, 07:45:55 AM
Hey Mates:
    I ordered and received my Bebi anchor light in a timely fashion.  I also ordered the 5w solar panel pictured in my previous post.   I've been testing them both for a couple weeks now.  Light comes on at sundown and goes off at sun up. Very bright on a dark night.  Solar panel keeps the battery up. Works like a charm.

Thanks for all the advice!
BobL

Outstanding Bob!

  Glad it is working out well for you!

Mine came a week ago, and I won't get a chance to try it out until next week in Tomales Bay, but I am looking forward to wowing my neighbors  ;D

Bebi is a great outfit, and Michael if you read this, thanks again.

We are going to all LED.  Back in the winter, we installed an LED white/red dome light in the galley and instantly noticed how much brighter it is than either of the 10 W incandescents in the cabin.

This week, our first two LED cabin lights arrived in the mail.  I hooked one up yesterday and cannot believe how bright it is; let's see, MUCH brighter and 1/10 the current draw - seems like a no brainer.  Here are the ones we got from Sailor's Solutions:

(http://www.sailorssolutions.com/ProductImages/SOL01_1.jpg)

Got two for the main cabin; will be getting two for the fore cabin with the next batch of ordering.

Another project that we have going on required us to remove the deck-level navigation lights.  I was never happy with them anyway; the lowered headsails would block the red or green (or both), the outboard blocked part of the arc of the stern light and DANG those things got hot.  Another down side was the current draw for running THREE lights (no bicolor on the bow).

So, since we had them off anyway, we went ahead and got LED replacements.

For the bow, also from Sailor's Solutions:

(http://www.sailorssolutions.com/ProductImages/L200-003_1.jpg)

And for the stern (from Defender):

(http://www.defender.com/large/700834_l.jpg)

Both bow bicolor and stern lights will now be mounted on the rail/pulpit to get them up off the deck and away from obstructions.

Next up will be to order the Bebe, though I think I will go with the one Charlie has that plugs in.

That only leaves the steaming light and masthead anchor light.   I want to replace the masthead anchor light either with a combo anchor/tricolor or just a tricolor; in either case, the mast mounted lights are lower on the priority list (the anchor light won't be used once the Bebe arrives and the steaming light is used with the engine so draw is not a problem...my outboard has a 5 amp charger).

Going all LED has GREATLY reduced our energy budget and relieves some of the logistical problems of storing lamp oil, etc.  Previously, I had been a fan of oil lamps (even for navigation lights), but LED's make the charging requirements WELL within the capability of even relatively small solar panels.

My plan is to get a 65 W solar panel, then maybe add a 20 W folding panel for "booster" charging when need down the road sometime. 

Wow,

  I really like this one.  Would not mind one of these on Faith's bulkhead....

(http://www.sailorssolutions.com/ProductImages/SOL01_1.jpg)

looking forward to the review.

Here's a shot of the cabin with both lit.  Left frame is the 10 W incandescent and right frame is the new LED cabin light.

The only thing bad about it is the price.   ;D

But hey, if it saves $$ in solar/wind/etc charging required, I'll gladly pay.

 just wanted to get in touch with Michael Homsany, and ask about an idea I had.

Go to th BEBI.com website and email him.

kewl,   thanks.

Bought another Bebi light before this trip.  Been cruising for 6 months with the cockpit / anchor light combo.... White high visibility lights on the side and more mellow warm LEDs on the bottom.

Has a light sensor to come on at dusk, and a lighter plug.  Stays rigged in the cockpit all the time.

Outstanding light.... Just like the owl I bought way back when.

Great product!