New ports

[skylark]

I have the aluminum frame with a rubber insert holding a plexiglass window.  The rubber is degrading and  I will have to do something with the ports to strengthen them.

I am thinking of oversizing the plexiglass, and through bolting it into the cabin wall with a sealant adhesive. 

Anybody have any recommendations as to the thickness of the plexiglass and the type of sealant/adhesive?

[AdriftAtSea]

I would use a neoprene gasket rather than just a sealant.  The thickness of the plexiglass is really dependent on the size of the opening.  The larger the opening, the thicker the plexi has to be.

[skylark]

My new port plans are coming together.  Got a big sheet of 1/4" lexan and fifty feet of 1/2" wide by 1/8" thick butyl tape.

The nuts are off of the existing ports.

I have the interior aluminum trim which will be used as a pattern to cut out the lexan.

I will get some caulk/adhesive to cover the butyl tape inside and out.

Step one is to cut out the ports.

Step two is to remove the existing ports and clean up around them.

Step three is to apply butyl tape around the opening

Step four is to push the port into place onto the tape.

Step five is to caulk around the tape inside and out.

Step six is to drill bolt holes.

Step seven is to install the interior aluminum trim and (optional) exterior aluminum trim with bolts and caulk.

[AdriftAtSea]

Most of the butyl window gasket tapes are fairly sticky, so i don't think a separate sealant/caulk will be necessary if you're using the butyl tape for the installation.  I don't think you want to mix the sealant with the butyl tape, since they may react with one another.

Also, drill the holes in the lexan a bit oversize as the stuff will expand and contract a bit and making the holes the exact size of the fasteners can put a lot of additional stress on the glazing material.

[skylark]

Well the old ports are out, all 8 of them.  It took about 4 hours.  By the last one I knew how to do it right.  It went pretty well, although there was a little bit of tearing of the gelcoat, which I covered with epoxy.  Its all cleaned up nice.

Its curing now, tomorrow morning I will do the butyl tape and lexan port installation.  I will probably let the butyl seal for a few days then drill the holes, caulk and bolt the ports.

The interior "beauty rings" can be used, the outside aluminum frames cannot be used because they are not flat.  Depending on what it looks like when done, I may paint over the butyl tape and caulk to protect it from UV.  But I might not if I can get a smooth regular lay of the tape on the cabin and it looks OK through the clear glass.

IT WILL NOT RAIN TONIGHT!

[skylark]

well i got the lexan lights installed on butyl tape.  I tried caulking one port with black caulk but didn't do a very good job.  I also decided I don't like the looks of black caulk.

I'm not sure what I am going to do yet, i will take a drive out there again and look at it and decide.  Probably white caulk.

I am exhausted, I have not worked this hard for quite a while.

[skylark]

Aaaargh, now the lexan is pulling away from the butyl tape on the curved areas. 

I'm learning of a number of ways not to install new ports.

[AdriftAtSea]

How is the lexan being held against the cabintop?  Is the cabintop's surface smooth and curved properly to fit the lexan to fairly??

[skylark]

Right now it is just butyl tape that is (not) holding it.  I still have to bolt it down and caulk it.

The frustrating thing is I am tied up with work and can't get to it.

[maxiSwede]

I am not certain as to all the details on your boat, so forgive me if I am coming right out of the blue here.

But what good is the butyl tape doing? Assuming you have the lexan, and a frame supposed to be bolted, I would guess that you would do just fine with the caulk and that´s it....... or am I missing some info  ???

[AdriftAtSea]

BTW, the Butyl tape isn't really designed to be a strong enough adhesive to hold the lexan in place.  It works in the case of car windshields, which are curved to match the opening they fit rather precisely, so as not to put any undue force against the butyl tape.  The Lexan you're using is not curved to fit the port openings, and the tendency of the lexan to straighten itself out is causing it to pull away from the tape.

[skylark]

There is no frame, its just lexan on butyl tape on the cabin top.  I still need to drill and through bolt the lexan, then caulk the port.  I put some tape over it to keep the rain out, hopefully this weekend I will be able to finish them off.

[CapnK]

Paul - With a similar project looming on my horizon, I feel your pain, and hope it is enough for both of us! :D Grog to you for the butyl tape idea; it seems that if there is not a lot of curve in the house at the place for installation, that should work well as a gasket of sorts if it is thick enough. I'll have to do some 'larnin' about it...

I'm guessing that the caulk is to seal up any small gaps?

Interesting also is your idea to paint over the area of sealant and thru-bolts afterwards. I've been trying to come up with a way to keep the 'look' of my current portlights, while increasing the installation strength. This bears consideration.

Also, I'll be joining your windvane forum soon, I have a unit that needs ident, and (crossing my fingers) maybe someone there will have information specific to the model, like a Users Manual. ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

CapnK-

If the butyl tape is installed properly, there should be no need for caulk or any leaks.

[Fortis]

You're not going to like hearing this....

You should have drilled the holes in the lexan first!

Firstly the thermal expansion factor on lexan is much higher then GRP. This means the hole needs to be somewhat larger then the bolt being used...but the hole in the GRP of the window surround need not be that big, indeed it helps if it isn't.

Also, lexan is really finicky about being dead flat to the direction of drill or it has a tendancy to allow the bit to skip and scar the surface. using a drill press once the hseet had been cut to size would have been easier and safer.

finally...Drilling through now is going to bring slivers and ribbles of Butyl up and scatter them around. Be alert for the catch and cleanup aspect of this. Butyl sticks to everything whether you want it to or not. And it smears.

Sorry.

Alex.

[skylark]

For some reason I seem to like to do things the hard way.  There is much more learning experience to be gained.  ;)  :-[

I plan on drilling a pilot hole from the inside, and then drilling an oversize hole from the outside through the lexan. Thats a good point about butyl goo globs, they could be nasty.

Actually the first port that I did, which was caulked, looks pretty decent if you don't look at the caulk smears.  A better taping job will cure that problem.  When through bolted, it looks like it will be structurally solid (and hopefully watertight).

I hope to have a few hours to work on it this weekend.  The biggest problem is that I don't have enough time.  I probably should have attacked this one port at a time instead of doing all of them, but I wanted the boat to be ready for my week off after Memorial Day.

By the time I am done with the project, I am sure I will know how to do it.

[Fortis]

I recall some years ago, when we had just purchased Fortis, and I layed out the massive refit job I had in mind. My very wise wife listened to all of it, and being somewhat familiar with which areas of work I felt I had some comfort or expertise in, and which I would be a fish learning to ride a bicycle, and being aware of my proclivities for wanting a "just so" result asked the following question.

"The real issue here is; Are you going to fix this boat as a learning project and then sell it, buy another boat and do it all again, but this time "properly" using what you know? Or are you going to volunteer on other people's boats on the grounds that they will appreciate the willing help and you will get to use them as guinea pigs for the stuff you want to try on this boat? Because the only option I am not going to be happy with is to put in several hundred hours on our boat, only to have you unsatisfied with the result and then pull it all apart again to "get it right this time""

I married a very smart woman.

Since we were both rather in love withthe boat (possibly unwisely. In retrospect, the extra several inches of standing headroom offered by the markII of the same model would be ever so lovely) I picked option two...and have slogged along on various other people's Endeavours. As a result, I have recieved an award form the association for single handedly lifting the overall performance and presentation of the whole fleet (kind of nice, the award was in the form of an engraved brass fresnel storm lantern), have made many friends, have made my growing-to-know-how-to-do-something mistakes..and subsequent repairs on a number of other people's boats, thereby not concentrating the errors in one hull. And I am now getting serious commercial work (paying!) for doing some custom boat fittings and modifications/repairs/upgrades.

During all this, Fortis has been somewhat sadly neglected...But we are just at the turn around point now. I now HAVE the skillset to do about 98% of it myself, and I have a stream of income from doing other people's boats that is being funneled directly into a special Fortis Fund.

Took a 2 1/2 year detor to get back to working on my own boat...but from here, it looks like it was well worth it.


Alex.

P.S I will give you the ultra top secret double encrypted way to really get ahead in the boat business.
TURN UP ON TIME. when you said you would, with the right tools and materials. Communicate with the client but do not drown them in the details unless they want tog o there. They are paying you to make a problem go away in a competent and elegant manner, they are not paying you to hear how clever you have been so they also must applaud you.
Work on stuff to the level of quality and finish you wold hope for on your own boat, do not assume that the client wants everything as cheap and rushed as possible. Charge for the time worked, do not cheat yourself by rounding down the hours, it is meaningless to the client and frustrating and damaging to you. get paid what the job is worth, so that you will want to do the next one.
Have standards you will not violate. If the client wants something that is not what you would be happy being your business card for future work, then politely refuse and refer them to someone else, do not just "hold your nose and do it" (unless you are remodelling the head).

Amazingly enough, I have found these rules to also work really well when working on your own boat and not getting paid!

[Captain Smollett]

CapnK and I were discussion just the other day:  "Better is the enemy of Good."

Being a perfectionist, I have to really focus on the standard of what truly is good enough (and keep in mind, I tend to way over engineer EVERYTHING - a good habit for an offshore boat, imo) and try to be aware of when I start just getting into "oh oh it's not perfect." 

Quality of workmanship is one thing - an unattainable ideal is something else.  But I do want my boat to be a reflection of me, whether as a 'business card' or just to say "this guy is squared away."

As I told a friend new-to-sailing last year: seamanship = safety; I think quality of a refit is included in seamanship.

In the meantime, I am soaking up all the larnin I can from the projects discussed on this forum.   ;D ;D

[oded kishony]

Hi Alex,

> P.S I will give you the ultra top secret double encrypted way to really get ahead in the boat business.<

What a fantastic bit of wisdome you've presented. Certainly true for practically any business I can think of. I wish this was inculcated into all young people and in retrospect I wish I had followed all these precepts. Unfortunately every generation  seems to need to re-learn these basic truths.

Thanks for a brilliant post!

Oded Kishony 

[AdriftAtSea]

Alex-

I'd agree with Oded that your advice is applicable to many things other than a boat business.  It would also be a much better world if more businesses, including marine-related ones, worked following those rules.