upgrade or refit

[oded kishony]

We love our boat, a 1978 Paceship PY26. It's a good solid sailor and also a comfortable well laid out boat. But it's in need of some upgrades and refitting.

What calculations are involved in deciding whether to refit vs upgrading to another boat?

Oded Kishony

[skylark]

How much time do you have, how much experience do you have?

[Captain Smollett]

Hi Oded,

I think the big question is "is she sailable now?"  Can you USE the boat, or is it usafe in some way?

The answer to that question will determine the rest of the equation.  If it is NOT safely sailable now (daysails, short getaways), the questions become "how long do I want to wait to get on the water" and "how much do I want to spend to get there?"  Fixing up spreads the cost over a longer time, usually, and also involves more "sweat equity."  How much would you want to spend on a 'new' boat, and would you be looking to buy a project boat or one 'ready to go NOW.' 

My point is that if it is safe to use now while you do refits and upgrades, you can enjoy the boat while working on it.  I think that helps the process A LOT.

Either way, I think you have to make a list of things that need to be done to the current boat and calculate time, work and cost for each of them.  Then weigh that against the cost of buying a boat which, in all honesty, will also probably need some refitting to go cruising (especially offshore).

I'd categorize needs:

• structural:  major repairs to hull or deck
• rigging
• layout/convenience:  are there winches, cleats where you want them, etc.
• cosmetic
• accomodations (layout, amenities, etc)

Also, you might want to check out the Pardey's Cost Conscious Cruiser.  They include a chapter on building vs. buying and lay out some good arguements about the "real" costs of outfitting a boat.  The discussion might be relevant depending upon how much work your current boat really needs.

You mentioned "good solid sailor and is also a comfortable and well laid out boat."  To me, that says keep her and fix her up.  You like the current boat and you did not mention specific reasons why you are considering and "upgrade" (a dubious term at best).

[BobW]

That is a tough question. 

One way to think about it is the cost of the refit and equipment upgrades compared to the cost of the new-to-you boat.   Can you get what you want in a different boat for what your refit will cost plus what you could sell you Paceship for in its present condition?  Something to keep in mind is the near certainty you'll put some money into whatever boat you purchase.

Another consideration is time.  Refitting costs may be spread out over a period of time - lessening the financial pain a bit.  Buying another boat probably means a lump sum up front.  Of course, if you are in a hurry, you may not want to take the time for a refit spread over many months or even years.

And then there's the beauty factor... If a new (to you) boat catches your eye, there are all sorts of rationalizations to justify the purchase.  ;D

The short answer is the calculations are yours and yours alone: What's important to you? 

Not much help, was I?  :)

[Lynx]

Refitting to what standard?

Some more questions -
Is the hull sound? a lot of blisters?
Cabin deck soft in spots?
Can you inspect the keel bolts?
Inother words, is the boat able to be fixed up to the standards that you need?
Do you have the time and skill to do the work yourself?
Is this a blue water boat ?
Would this be a project of love?

The cost that people are quoting to refit is close to a new boat. Inorder to get a Flicka, 20 foot on deck, with a sound deck and hull to blue water standards is over $ 70,000 US Dollars (that is replacing everything). A Dana 24 is over $ 125,000 US Dollars, new.

Where ARE you going cruising, really, in the next 5 - 10 years?

If it is just coastal cruising, you might look at a good coastal cruiser, new or near new.  $ 70,000 US Dollars will get you a new coastal cruiser plus a lot of upgrades.

[AdriftAtSea]

Oded–

Is there anything specific you can say about what upgrades she needs, and what needs to be refitted?  Once you've identified what the different projects are, you can categorize them as CS pointed out, and also get a rough budget for them.  Once you have a really rough idea of what all the refitting and upgrading will cost, you can then start to get an idea of whether re-fitting and upgrading the current boat makes more sense or upgrading to a different boat is a better choice.   

In one of the Good Old Boat magazines, a couple went through something quite similar, and they ended up deciding that the boat they knew and had sailed for so many years was worth more to them than buying one with the features they were looking for.  They ended up installing an in-board diesel in a boat that was not originally designed to take one... and it ended up being a much better choice for them, or that is how the article reads at least.

[Parrothead]

Couple things I have noticed.

$10000 in new electronics adds about $50 value to sale price.

When the broker says electrics were refit he means a new panel cover was put on.

[oded kishony]

>Is there anything specific you can say about what upgrades she needs, and what >needs to be refitted?<

I'm not really sure exactly what she needs. I suppose I can get a surveyor to go through it all.

The hull and deck are solid, the rigging seems good except for some small details, the rudder needs a rebuild, not sure of the wiring, it is original but I've cleaned up some of the terminals with appropriate shrink tubing etc. I've rebuilt the downtube and centerboard she needs new opening ports (at least two) and paint-lots of paint. there's some crazing at the stern, cockpit etc. The engine always starts, does not smoke but is underpowered (9hp Yanmar for 6000lb boat). I've installed a new port a potty with pump out on deck. The plumbing seems solid (very little of it to go bad ;-)
I should remove the old thru hulls and glass them over and maybe replace the original  (plastic) thru hulls with bronze

I would prefer to have a full keel boat, but for the sailing we actually do she's fine.

Well, as I write this it seems silly to replace her.... :-\

Oded :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Oded-

I guess that kind of answers your question.  ;) 

The only other question I'd have for you is: Do you have any future sailing plans that might require outfitting her differently, or require a different boat altogether??  Do you dream of making any long cruises or an ocean crossing?  If so, then it might be wise, to get the boat that you can do that with, so that you can get it prepared for doing so. 

That's kind of where I am with my boat.  The materials I need for my bridgedeck arrived today, so I'm off to the marina to start glassing it in. 

Dan

[oded kishony]

Thanks Dan,

>Do you dream of making any long cruises or an ocean crossing? <

No ocean crossings, but we are seriously considering extended coastal cruising along the East Coast, perhaps as far as the Carribean Islands. The Paceship is on the light side for that type of cruising (motion comfort index of about 20; capsize index around 2.0) I could see doing that on this boat but I would upgrade many items before taking her on an extended trip.

Oded

[Bubba the Pirate]

In the first couple chapters of This Old Boat,  there is a great system for a list and chart etc. for deciding what to do first; what's important; etc.    I highly recommend it.   

You may be able to find a library copy or something but the book is a great resource for me.   


TrT

[Gus]

I'll say upgrade if you have the $$$. The experience hands on you will get is worth a lot IMHO. My first boat was a rundown VN 23, and I worked on it for a while, then I sold it. All the stuff I learned in that boat, I put it to use to my Chrysler.

This old boat is a good book, very complete.

I also like Sailboat hull and deck repair by Casey, The fiberglass boat repair by Vaitses, and Upgrading your small sailboat for cruising, by Butler.

[skylark]

The Paceship looks a lot like the type of boat I have, a Tanzer 28.  The interior looks like a copy.  I think this type of boat is well worth maintaining.  It is a perfect size for two people. The boat sails well and is easy to sail.

With the age of the boat, just owning it and maintaining it becomes "refitting" it.  Every spring I find myself taking on some fairly large task and invest quite a bit of time into the boat.  Some money too, although not huge amounts.  The work never ends, but at least it is manageable.

[Lynx]

oded - all of this stuff adds up. It has been survyed that a boat cruising with new gear will last about 3 years before replacement of parts start (well, compaired to a older boat). Whenevery you start doing repairs kept that in mind. Like replaceing the chain plates (if needed) before replacing the VHF. I would also replace the wiring if orginal and the standing rigging before your cruise. The copper inside the cables start to decay (for lack of a better word) and will give you problems cruising. 

It is like you said - small enough to not have a great deal of stuff to deal with. I think that you could to the Bahamas easily enough. 

In my view, for a trouble free cruise, you should replace everything that you can, as close to your casting off date as possible.

More Horse power? The more the better but you should do OK with the Yanmar if in good shape. Run hours is not the real issue but the maintance.

[oded kishony]

The reason the Paceship and Tanzer (27) look the same is because Tanzer bought the plugs for this boat from AMC. In other words, it IS the same boat :D[

Vigor in one of his books(the Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat) has a questionaire that evaluates your boat's blue water capability, the Paceship is right on the cusp of qualifying as a blue water boat.

I enjoy messing around doing maintenance and repairs, unfortunately the boat is two hours' drive from my house so the time we spend on her is precious.

If and when we decide on extended cruising I'll probably transport the boat to my back yard and go at her full time untill she's ready. Untill then I'll continue yearly small projects.

Thanks,
Oded

The Paceship looks a lot like the type of boat I have, a Tanzer 28.  The interior looks like a copy.  I think this type of boat is well worth maintaining.  It is a perfect size for two people. The boat sails well and is easy to sail.

With the age of the boat, just owning it and maintaining it becomes "refitting" it.  Every spring I find myself taking on some fairly large task and invest quite a bit of time into the boat.  Some money too, although not huge amounts.  The work never ends, but at least it is manageable.

Edit by Captain Smollett: fixed quote tag

[Captain Smollett]

the boat is two hours' drive from my house so the time we spend on her is precious.

I understand THAT dilemma. 

For years, I kept my trailerable rigged at a sailing club; all I had to do was hookup up the trailer, pull off the tarp, rig dock lines and go.  Arrival to launch in under 15 minutes.  The boat was 45 minute drive from the house.

I rarely did maintenance.  I would go to the boat and say, 'hmmm, I'm here, I might as well just go sailing.'   :)

When I brought the boat home, I got a lot done that I had been neglecting, especially some crucial work to the trailer itself.

Now, the A-30 is 2.5 hours away.  But, I'm finding that if I plan a trip to get chores done, not sail, I can stick to it (at least so far).  The scheme I like best is to go down the night before, after my children are in bed, and spend the night on the boat.  Then I get an early start on the chores and can leave mid afternoon to head back.  I'm getting down about once a week.

[AdriftAtSea]

Ouch... and I thought my hour drive to where the Pretty Gee is was bad... I can't imagine having to drive 2.5 hours to get there... I've been down to the boat three times this week to do work on her.

[Bill NH]

And I've been grumbling about driving 20 minutes to the yard where I'm refitting Walkabout, instead of walking out to the barn where my Alberg is...  (I bought Walkabout in February, when the barn was inaccessable due to several feet of snow on the ground...)   Guess I don't have it that bad!

[oded kishony]

One of my marina neighbors, who owns a magnificent 31ft Pacific Seacraft Mariah cutter, has a four hour commute to his boat. From West Virginia to Urbanna, VA!!! 2 hrs seems a lot shorter now!   ;D

Oded



>And I've been grumbling about driving 20 minutes to the yard where I'm refitting >Walkabout, instead of walking out to the barn where my Alberg is...  (I bought >Walkabout in February, when the barn was inaccessable due to several feet of snow >on the ground...)   Guess I don't have it that bad!