If my yacht goes belly up ...

[Ged]

I'm thinking of rigging up a 10mm to 12mm thick line that I could in an emergency run across the beam of my inverted hull if ever the near unthinable happened and 'le Sel' capsized. She has, like most TS a high level of initial stability, but would not self-right once over. Clinging to that shiny, slippery hull would be impossible. I've run all the ratios like the AVS through the online calculator & it ain't pretty. Typical I suspect of most TS. Has anyone else given thought to this?? By the way ... I was reading the wrap up on the 1998 Sydney to Hobart & the findings were that which yachts survived & which didn't was completely random & had nothing to do with design, AVS or anything like that. Now that is terrifying. Best, Ged

[AdriftAtSea]

That's one reason I got a Jordan Series Drogue.  It is one of the devices best known for working to prevent capsize of small boats in heavy weather.  :D  My boat would turn turtle and stay there, being an 18' wide trimaran... so prevention is my only option.  Self-righting isn't even a remote possibility.

[Ol' Coot]

That's one reason I got a Jordan Series Drogue.  It is one of the devices best known for working to prevent capsize of small boats in heavy weather.

how much commision do they pay?

[skylark]

By the way ... I was reading the wrap up on the 1998 Sydney to Hobart & the findings were that which yachts survived & which didn't was completely random & had nothing to do with design, AVS or anything like that. Now that is terrifying. Best, Ged

Perhaps it all came down to being under the wrong wave peak at the wrong time.

[AdriftAtSea]

That's one reason I got a Jordan Series Drogue.  It is one of the devices best known for working to prevent capsize of small boats in heavy weather.

how much commision do they pay?

Don't need to pay me a commission.. :D I've had a few long conversations with Don Jordan regarding the beastie... and I'm a believer...

I plan on trying out the JSD later this season, just to get a feel for how it works on my boat.  It was designed for smaller boats to help them survive conditons like that found in the Fastnet '79 storm.  According to RW testimonials and the USCG testing, it does what he said it would.  It is probably more effective on a multihull, which has the main problem of surfing and then pitchpoling.

[CapnK]

Ged -

Hobie cats use a big thick bungee for that righting-line purpose. Being bungee, it retracts up out of the water when not in use, but when/if the boat flips, you can pull it out and around far enough to use it for righting the boat. It has a large diameter which is comfortable on the hands.

While this isn't the particular line I was thinking of, it might work well for you (from eBay):
http://tinyurl.com/246dyq

[AdriftAtSea]

I think one of the problems with having a line under the boat is the drag it will cause as well as the growth that will happen on it.  A piece of flat webbing, with a bit of bungie type cord on each end to keep it snug might make more sense, since it could lie fairly flat against the hull.  Kind of like a jackline for the underside of the boat. I know that some of the bigger cats and tris have something like this.  Some of the bigger multihulls also have a hatch through the bottom of the boat for just such a situation.

[Captain Smollett]

Wouldn't it better to NOT CAPSIZE??   :o :o     ;D

Ged, any idea of the Capsize Screening Ratio for the TS16?  I looked at the Sail Calculator Page and did not see it listed.

My 18 ft trailerable has a pretty poor CSR (2.81), but I've never worried about capsizing her, even in some failry trying conditions for an 18 foot boat.  She's a centerboarder with round bilges and quite beamy for her length, but there IS some reserve stability (which you said your boat does not have).

I guess what I am saying is similar to what you often hear about getting BACK aboard after COB - "don't fall off the boat."  Easy to say, plan for the worst and all that, but it seems to me maybe a bit like fixing a problem you can avoid other ways.

In case you haven't seen it yet, you might want to check out this discussion about the TS16 seaworthiness (same boat, right?).

[AdriftAtSea]

I agree, that preventing capsize, MOB or other such problems is a much better idea... but you can't always prevent it...

On a multihull, the trick is to reef early and for the gusts, where on a monohull, you generally will reef for the general wind strengths, and let the boat handle the gusts.

Wind-induced capsize on a cruising multihull is pretty rare, and generally it is caused by human error... not reducing sail in time, or ignoring the warning signs. 

On my boat, the primary warning sign is the leeward ama will start to submerge its aft end.. that's a warning that you're overpowered and should be reefing.

Wave induced capsize is harder to control.  In storm conditions, I plan on using a drogue.  In conditions less than that, the boat seems to be just fine, provided you've reefed it down properly.  I still need to get more time in on the boat in different conditions to be sure of how she will handle them.

[Ged]

I was not going to literally run a line under the hull as a permanent feature. The line would be set up and then run over the top of the inverted hull if the worst should ever happen. Of course it's best to sail well within limits, however, I have been caught out a few times with nowhere to hide and have had to make do. And Captain, the numbers I got for the TS Hartley are: AVS - 111.76 (+140 is ideal). Screening stability - 236.73. Stability - 3.12 (greater than 2 is risky) and displacement to hull lenght ratio is 80.33 (light displacement cruiser). Yes, I was aware of the center plate & capsize issue. I'm going to build in a cleat to lock it into position. Thanks for the web site ... I hadn't seen that particular one before. Best, Ged

[AdriftAtSea]

Ged-

Ah... that makes sense.  I hate to think what the capsize stability number for my boat is...

[Captain Smollett]

the numbers I got for the TS Hartley are: AVS - 111.76 (+140 is ideal).

Using this site to calculate AVS for my boat (and note that there are different formulae used to compute this value), I got 116.5.  Now, given that you mentioned 140+ is ideal, that seems a bit low.

BUT....

1. Computed AVS numbers with simplistic formulae are well known to be inaccurate, and known to generally be LOW.  That is, the formula used tend to underestimate the AVS.  The best bet is to actually measure the AVS, but short of that, the original designer of the boat may have a truer number available.

2. Here's an very similar discussion to the one we are having.  They do discuss AVS and other screening numbers (such as downflooding angle  :o ).  Another discussion focuses on the way these numbers, taken alone, don't ALWAYS tell the whole picture of sailing performance, comfort and seaworthiness - as well as how crew comfort (to prevent fatigue) may be more important than some of these design numbers.  It's a good discussion, in my opinion.  Note how one guy in the second link claims his 'favorite' boats have AVS's in the 110 range!!  Interesting, to say the least.

My favorite quote from the second link:

Boats are a reflection, not of statistics but, of the way those stats are blended.

Too bad the same guy said he'd prefer a 50+ footer to cross an ocean.   ::)

3. Most of the time, various design numbers are useful only for comparing boats of similar size, shape and style.  For example, it would be instructive to compare your TS16 to my Skipper's Mate, or perhaps either to the Montgomery 17.  But the numbers on their own don't really tell a whole lot.

On the subject of 'getting caught out,' I'm not sure what you would consider getting caught out with nowhere to hide.  I offer only for comparision that my 18 footer has handled 32 kt winds and 5-6 ft seas without "feeling" either unstable or unduly (for her size) uncomfortable.  As is commonly stated, the CREW is the most important factor aboard in rough conditions.  Most boats can handle far more than we can.

One final note: You mentioned the Sydney-Hobart race and how boats lost varied in design.  Two comments.  First, ONE of the causes of that was it was a RACE.  Perhaps many crews pushed beyond when they should have slowed down and adopted storm tactics.  Second, I believe ALL of the boats lost were lying ahull or running off at the time.  Perhaps the cause of the stat you mentioned was a combination of (a) waiting too long to adopt 'survival' tactics and (b) not choosing the best, though highly touted, storm tactic.

So, do you plan on being out, or even getting caught out, in hurricane conditions in your TS16?   ;D

Fair Winds.

[AdriftAtSea]

Most boats can handle far more than we can.

Very, very true.  IIRC, there was a small (34' or so) catamaran that was abandoned off of the coast of Mexico last year.  It was sighted six months later, floating and being used by a colony of seagulls as a nesting site.  I don't know what finally happened to it, but six months afloat with no human intervention says something about the toughness of boats...

[Lynx]

In the picture, I thought I saw a mono-hull. In seas that you would capsize in (from my understanding) you would roll enough to right the boat.

There is 2 things that would stop this. 1 The boat is full of water and sunk.

2 The sails are still up.

If the boat is not full of water and the boat is still turtle, you could rig something to the end of the mast to float it up.

A supply of very tough lawn plastic bags would be of use.

A Cat is a different story.

No experience, Just a thought.

[AdriftAtSea]

Lynx-

The OP did post a photo of his boat, which is a monohull.  I have a trimaran.  Capsize is a very serious concern of mine needless to say.

[Lynx]

I agree. I have read a little about this regarding the cats. I am sure you have more knowledge. A thing nice about the cats is that when the turn over it usually does not sink like a monohull.

Knolwdge is KING here. Good luck.

James

[oded kishony]

I've been planning to do more extensive safety exercises this Spring and MOB is at the top of the list.

In looking over some of the material posted I'm confused about whether it is better to approached upwind or downwind of the victim. If the boat is upwind then there is  calmer waters in the lee of the boat, but you run the risk of the boat drifting over the victim. If you're downwind of the victim then there's the risk of waves slamming the victim into the side of the boat.

Which do you prefer?

Oded

[AdriftAtSea]

Oded-

Unfortunately, there isn't a single answer to whether the upwind side or downwind side is better for the approach to the MOB in the water.  It depends on the wind, sea state, type of boat, and a few other factors.

For instance, my boat tends to drift fairly fast due to the design of it—in fact, without the centerboard down, the front end gets blown around like a kite... I would prefer to approach from the downwind side.  Another reason I prefer this, is that my boat tends to move with the motion of the waves, rather than resist them, since it has no heavy keel holding it down, so the likelihood of them being slammed into the boat is a bit lower IMHO.  She also has relatively little freeboard, which means that someone on the ama, hooked into the jacklines on the main deck, has a relatively safe chance of getting the MOB back aboard. 

Personally, I would prefer to use the LifeSling I have mounted in the cockpit, rather than try a more traditional MOB recovery.  The LifeSling allows me to get the person in the water close to the boat in a controlled manner, and choose how I am going to bring them aboard.  In reading many stories about MOB situations, the LifeSling seems to have been critical in many of the successful MOB recoveries. 

I haven't had much practice with the LifeSling, and hope to do a practice sesssion with it this summer at some point.  I'd like to try it with an actual MOB, under controlled circumstances... but don't know if that's going to happen. 



PS.  Can one of the mods move my reply and Oded's post to the MOB thread please...

[Lynx]

I do not know if the "Life Sling" would work on my boat. It just may tip the mast too much.

I have seen a wide and long webbing that can be tied to the sanctions and put overboard. The person then gets inside the you pull it up. This is called a B.O.B. Sling

http://www.creativemarine.com/newprodct/ors/ORS.htm

Any thoughts?

[AdriftAtSea]

Lynx-

The LifeSling is mainly designed to get the MOB back to the boat.  The BOB Sling doesn't do that.   While  a LifeSling can also be used to hoist a person aboard, that isn't its primary purpose.  I also, don't see how/why it would tip your boat too much, unless you were using it to do a MOB recovery and hoisting the person into the boat with the boom swung all the way out to the side—which is not an ideal use of it.

The BOB Sling is a parbuckle type recover device, similar to using a jib to do the recovery, and it's major advantage is that it can hoist a person out of the water horizontally, which is important in cases of hypothermic MOBs.

However, I don't see it being worth $700.  You can get construction site webbing for far less than that and it serves much the same purpose.  If you use a boom vang to keep the boom fairly close to the boat, using the LifeSling wouldn't tip the boat any more than using the BOB Sling IMHO. 

The LifeSling is a much better piece of MOB recovery equipment IMHO, as it makes it far easier to get the MOB to the boat, if the MOB is at all mobile.  It also can be used to hoist the MOB, but you need to have a tackle or halyard setup to do that with.  BTW, from what I've seen and read, the four-to-one tackle that LifeSling sells for  use in MOB hoisting is really insufficient to the task.  A six-to-one tackle is really much more appropriate, especially in the case of smaller crew lifting larger MOBs.