Measuring for a new (different) main...

[BobW]

I asked this question on TSBB and got no response.  So maybe I didn't phrase the question right...   Anyways, here goes:

I suspect Prelude's mast is taller than a standard Columbia Challenger 24 mast. The reason I suspect this is the 12" (or more) of mast I have above the head of the sail when the sail is raised as high as I can raise it without the gooseneck coming out of the slot.  (Pay no attention to the windex - it has been repaired since the pic was taken!)



The luff of the sail measures 27' without tension.

Once I have the sail raised as high as it can be, I can pull the boom down about 12" with the downhaul (6:1), and there is room to bring it down further.  The following pic shows the boom at the gate in the slot with no downhaul applied.  I can bring the boom below the halyard cleat with the downhaul.



A 27' luff seems to be too short. Is a 28' luff enough? How about 29'? How do I figure that out before shopping for and buying a used sail?

I plan to run a measuring tape up the mast with the halyard to get a reasonably accurate measurement of the mast. I'll measure to the bottom of the slot gate, and to the deck.

When shopping used sail sites, how much do I (should I) allow for the stretch when setting the sail?

Thanks.

[AdriftAtSea]

BobW-

Do you have the height of the mast itself. That might be a good clue as to whether you've got an oddball rig for your boat. 

It might be worth having the sail loft come out and look at your boat, if you're ordering new sails.  The loft could measure the mast and make sure that you've got the right dimensions for it.  The distance between the top of the mast and the headboard on the sail does seem to be a bit longer than I would think is normal, especially given how high you have the boom set. 

Here's a photo of my boat under sail.  The main sail headboard is right at the masthead. Sorry for the poor quality of the pic, it is a severe crop of a photo a friend took from too far away.

[BobW]

I haven't measured the mast as yet.  Another item on the longish list of things to do...

I do agree a sailmaker coming out to the boat is a good idea, but I'm not ready to order new sails.  I am thinking of looking for a used sail, but I haven't really found anything close. 

There is a sail loft in the marina, and a dock neighbor speaks highly of another local shop, so I'll talk to both of them and perhaps get some useful information.

Thanks for the input.

[AdriftAtSea]

From your photos and description, I would hazard a guess that you can probably go up to about 28' 6" or so on the luff length.  You probably want to leave a bit of "wiggle" room to allow the boom to adjust for stretch and such.  Having the sail a tiny bit shorter than the maximum is better than having it a bit long IMHO, as you'll get less control over the shape if it is too long, and it will tend to bag more than if it is a bit short.

BTW, from the Columbia Yatch Owner's site, the measurements for the Challenger are:

                                             JIB    JIB   MAIN   MAIN
                                             LEECH   FOOT  LUFF   FOOT
LOA    LWL   BEAM   DRAFT   DISPL  BALLAST    I      J      P      E   

24'4"  18'0"   8'0"   3'4"    3930   1800    30.1    9.0   25.0   11.5

So I would guess that your mast is definitely not standard, as the standard mainsail was a 25' luff measurement, not 27'.  :D 


I hope that helps. 

[BobW]

I did a double take when I read the specs you quoted as I have been operating on the belief the Challenger's luff measurement was 27'.  But double checking the Columbia Yacht Owners site confirmed your numbers (didn't doubt them, just had to check).  It is interesting that the Challenger (to my understanding) was intended as more of a one-design racing boat than the Columbia 24.  And yet the 24 shows a luff of 27' as does the Contender. 

I've had the sail off the boat and spread out on the ground to measure the luff at 27'.  This tells me I definitely have a non-standard rig!

I agree with your guestimate of 28'6" or so for the luff, but I'll measure the mast (and boom!) and talk with a sailmaker.  Wouldn't hurt to measure the headsail either.  Dang... I didn't think I was in the market for new sails, but if I'm off by as much as it looks like I may be, I'm missing out on some performance.

[AdriftAtSea]

Could it be that you have the sails off of a Contender, rather than the sails of the original boat?  Also, I'd be interested in hearing how long the boom is, to see how different this rig is from a standard one?  Hmmm... interesting... I wonder where the PO got the mast and boom? 

I think this is kind of important to know, since this means your bridge clearances aren't standard either, and could be off by four or five feet... that's the difference between hitting a bridge and getting under it.

Do you know if the original rig had an adjustable boom with the sliding gooseneck yours has? 

This also means that all of your rigging is different as well.  Also, the standard numbers, like SA/D, and capsize numbers are going to be off as well.  What year is your boat?  A friend of mine has a Ranger from the tail end of the days just before they went out of business.  The draft on his boat is much deeper than it is supposed to be, since it appears that the factory put on the keel from the next larger boat on his—apparently to save the money making his keel new would cost.  At least that's what he is guessing.  Something similar may have happened with your boat, if one of the PO's didn't change the rig.

[Norm]

Bob:
The very short answer to how much stretch should you allow for is to look at a cordage catalogue that shows strength of rope and percent of stretch.  If you have plain dacron sails, look at the stretch associated with a rope like Stay Set appropriately sized to your rig.  Higher tech materials, apply the stretch for higher tech cordage.

This is the response I got from a sailmaker who first said, "It depends."  We talked about the variables, which I will skip for the moment.  If I can remember... I will ask our staff sailmaker at the sailing center what he would figure for your specific rig.  He also buys a lot of used sails for our fleet.  He may have some mesurement guides or tips.

More to follow...

[AdriftAtSea]

Norm-

That's a great way to ball park it... However, the actual stretch will also depend on the actual cloth used and the cut of the material used in making the sail.

[Norm]

Hello All:
Yes, Dan, material matters a lot.  That is why a sailmaker's first response to my query was, "That depends."

For example, a luff may be constructed to have very low stretch.  The forces will dissipate into the fabric comprising the body of the sail, making it baggy.  On one of my boats, we had a strong mainsail made of Vektron and the halyard, which was underspec, stretched almost a foot during the first hard day of sailing.  Variables... on and on.

There are a half dozen styles of "plain dacron" sail cloth.  The exotics get even more complex.  Each has its own purpose.  The problem we face at the sailing center with buying used sails is matching original design purpose to our needs.  It isn't just a luff and foot length measurement question.

Thinking about rig dimensions:  Mauri Sailing has a lot of information.  It may be useful for Bob to compare his rig to the published specs from the Mauri site:
http://mauriprosailing.com/sailboat-rig-dimensions.htm

I= 30.1
J= 9.0
P=27.0
E=11.3

In general, I bet Bob got lucky and bought a boat that had been rerigged with a taller mast.  More horsepower!  Enjoy it, Bob, and be certain to sail responsibly! 

To add even more complexity to the topic:  how much does a new sail cost?  The prices are all over the place.  Mainsails have a lot of hand detail work in them because of track slides, reef points, and battens. 

The fabric costs are about 20% of the total cost of a mainsail.  Especially in the case of mainsails, it is worth it to buy the best available materials for the purpose.  Used sails have a false economy if new slides, battens, tack setback, etc are required. 

Bob, from what we see in the pictures, looks like you are tricking your boat out nicely, cascading vang.  Yeah.  Didn't you do the three bridge fiasco or some other DH race?  How did that turn out?  I lost track of the thread.  Time to buy some new bling for your sweety?  She'll look very sexy with a new main.  Maybe one of those frederick's of hollywood see-thru headsails, too?

Best,
Norman

[AdriftAtSea]

Norm—

ROFL... How does Elizabeth feel about you shopping at Fredericks for Averisera???

I agree that used sails can be a bad buy if you're not careful. 

Also, for cruising boats, reef points are usually necessary, one or two, and in some cases three reefs.  Depending on what the sails were used for, they may not have the reefs built in.  Finally, if you're using something like the Dutchman sail flaking system, the sail has to be modified for that.

I find it interesting that the Columbia Yatch Owner's site has the P listed at 25.0', and MauriPro has it listed at 27.0', which seems to be closer to what BobW actually has, and matches the sail he has.  Also, the boom measurement is different, 11.3' vs. 11.5'.  Hmmm... I wonder which is right, or did they make the boat with two different rigs?

[BobW]

Good morning Dan and Norm,

When I got the boat it had a fixed gooseneck, old halyards, no cunningham, and the outhaul was not adjustable.  The sails are old, but were not used much. (I took the headsail to Pineapple Sails in Alameda, CA for some repairs in 2003.  The owners did a double-take - the sail is a Pineapple sail, but the partners listed on the sailmaker's label had left the partnership 18 years earlier!  They fixed the sail and told me it had about 3-4 useful years left.  Guess where that puts me now?)

I honestly don't know the measurements for either the mast or the boom, but I'll fix that next weekend.

I think, but don't know for sure, the original Columbia rig had a fixed gooseneck.  I replaced the mainsheet fiddle blocks and line.  I rigged a cunningham but didn't like how it worked.  I changed to a sliding gooseneck in 2004, and replaced the cunningham with a downhaul.  I also replaced a 2:1 vang with the cascading vang shown in the pic.  I added a 4:1 outhaul and rigged the sail loose-footed.  Last winter (Jan 06) I replaced the standing rigging.  This winter (Jan 07) I replaced the halyards and serviced the winches.   New sails are moving up the list of things to change.

Yes, we did sail the DH Three Bridge Fiasco in January.  We had light winds and strong currents at the start.  Two hours in, we were in close to shore working up the City front trying to avoid the worst of the ebb when the wind went calm.  The current started moving us back and closer to shoals, so we fired up the motor and got out of there.  It wasn't until the next day on our trip home did it occur to us we could have anchored and waited for wind...  A learning experience.

I do appreciate the thoughts and comments, and I will next week's findings with you.

Thanks.

[AdriftAtSea]

The use of anchors is allowed in racing AFAIK.  I've read about one race, where the winner did just that... anchored when the whole fleet was becalmed...and didn't get swept backwards by the current, and was able to weigh anchor when the wind picked up and win. 

I wonder if the Pineapple sail loft has any records of what boat the sail was originally bought for.  I've heard good things about them as a sail loft. 

Adding a cunningham to my boat is one of my projects for this spring.  Originally, I was planning on adding a vang to the boat as well, but decided it wasn't really all that necessary, especially since the boom brake tends to act as a vang in many ways. 

Where was the original boom mounted relative to the mast track slot?   I'm curious abut it because I'm trying to see how the length of the sail to the original boom's position.

[oded kishony]

> Originally, I was planning on adding a vang to the boat as well, but decided it wasn't really all that necessary, especially since the boom brake tends to act as a vang in many ways. <

I'm curious abut what kind of boom brake you have and how it works as a vang?

Oded

[AdriftAtSea]

Oded-

I have a Dutchman boom brake, and I've written about it here.

The reason I say it tends to work as a vang, is that due to the way you install a Dutchman Boom Brake, it tends to help hold the boom down, which is all a vang does for the most part.

[BobW]

Dan,

Checking with Pineapple for info on the main is a good idea.  I do know they identified the headsail as a Columbia Challenger 24 class sail.

Digging around in my pics, I came up with strong evidence my boat has a taller mast than the boat was designed for and built with.  The first pic is a "class legal" Challenger from the Stockton Sailing Club's fleet.



Note how high the sails are hoisted.

Here is a pic of my headsail at full hoist.



Since my headsail is a class sail, and doesn't go anywhere near as high as the headsail on the class legal boat, I think it is safe to conclude my mast is taller than a class legal boat.  Now I'm really curious - and anxious - to measure the mast and boom.

The fixed gooseneck was mounted nearly even with the halyard winch.  You can see the holes for the fasteners in the mast in the pic I posted earlier.

[AdriftAtSea]

Yup... definitely not a standard mast... :D  Looks like you've got at least another two feet over the stock mast.  :D  Wooohoooo!  more sail area... time to take advantage of that. 

I know some boats were offered with two different rigs.  My boat has a standard mast, which is 35.5', but they do make a taller "performance" mast that is 37.5' and has the boom set 6" lower... meaning they've got 2.5' more luff length. 

[BobW]

Well, yes, I agree it is time to take advantage of hanging more sail.  Unfortunately, the budget says it isn't really time...

It was a glorious day in the Delta today - bright blue skies with no haze.  Yesterday's front (more rain than forecast, moderate amounts of rain) moved on last night bringing lots of wind today.  With north winds in the upper teens, gusting to the low 30s, the marina was loud with the wind in everyone's rigging.

Unfortunately for me, that wind stirred up Karen's allergies.  She was miserable.  We only stayed long enough to check the bilge (dry), snap a pic of the solar panel, and pick up some tools I need at home.  No measuring the spars, no installing the solar quick disconnects, no any chores of consequence (although checking the bilge could qualify for that designation).

So, my list of chores, tasks, and projects remains intact, and I will have to wait until next weekend to chip away at it.

[AdriftAtSea]

It's been raining here... like Noah's building another boat... we've got coastal flood warnings, and the Buzzards Bay weather buoy is reporting winds of 44 knots... UGH. 

[Norm]

Hi Bob:
Maybe it will help Karen's alergies for her to accompany you on a long ocean passage, no pollen at sea!  Of course, I can irrationalize going sailing....

During our delivery Bridgeport to Boston we had a double reef tucked in most of the way.  One of the sail slides broke.  I think it was age but it didn't look old.  Anyway, it made me think about those darn things and used mains and I segued over to your boat's mainsail discusssion.  The things that go through one's mind while slogging to windward!

When/if you get a main, consider those inexpensive looking white plastic sail slides as subject to failure without notice.  I have delt with this problem before.  Good quality replacement slides are cheap.  It takes a long time to replace them, though.  There are some new plastic shackles to make the job fast but I trust a sewn job more.

No matter what, hope you get out soon and your wife feels better.  (Has she ever tried taking local honey as a rememdy for pollen alergies?  I hear that is the old natural curative.)

Norm

[BobW]

Hi Norm,

Good idea!  No pollen on the ocean... why didn't I think of that?  I'll let you know how that suggestion works.  ::)  Karen is much more likely to try local honey than sailing down to Catalina...

Thanks for the thoughts about used sails and slug failures.  I nearly have myself convinced (I, too, can rationalize what I want!) to order new sails - when the budget allows it (probably more rationalization on the horizon).  Used sails seem to be more of a compromise or gamble than new.  My dock neighbor bought a new headsail from a small local loft a year ago.  He was very pleased with the service, and likes the sail he got very much, so I will take his recommendation and talk with the guy about new sails.  Probably one sail at a time.

It is strange how the mind works... Never in a thousand guesses would I imagine me and my boat crossing anyone else's mind during a passage in foul weather! 

I'm glad to hear you two like your new boat.