Motor Lift ... or Wishful thinking

[CapnK]

Bob - So what you are saying is that the rails the motor will slide up and down on will reach from the top of your pushpit, down to near the waterline?

Preposterous! It'll never work! Noone has *ever* done it that way!

What I mean is:

GO For it!

What a neat idea, I'll look forward to seeing how it comes out. Like Dan says, AFAIK there are no shoulders inside of the fittings, you should be able to slide them around at will.

Post pics. :D

[AdriftAtSea]

You might want to chamfer the inner edges of the fittings so that they will slide more easily and not scar the tubing quite so much. You'll also probably have to shim the fittings, so that when you tighten down, they don't grab the tubing as they are designed to do. :)

[BobW]

Kurt -

Let's not get too excited about this project just yet.  It looks great on paper, but I'm trying to contain my enthusiasm until we get it installed and it works!  I am optimistic about the design but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.  I think I need to coin a word or phrase to better describe the rail that will support the top of the lift.  The rail will serve as my stern rail, but it will be a couple - three feet forward of the transom.  Pics will help - when we get that far.

Dan -

Thanks for the suggestions re stainless, camfering the fittingsand the comment (you, too, Kurt) about the fittings sliding freely over the rail tubing. 

[AdriftAtSea]

Glad to help Bob... ;)

[CapnK]

Kurt -

Let's not get too excited about this project just yet.  It looks great on paper, but I'm trying to contain my enthusiasm until we get it installed and it works!

Bob - what I am most excited about is that *you* are the one working out the bugs, not me! ;) ;D

Besides that, it is a neat idea. I probably won't be able to use it, with a vane mounted on the stern. Wah... :)

[BobW]

Kurt,

I'll grant you having someone else work out the bugs is a better way to do things, but no one's volunteered to do the experimenting for me!  I've been trying to figure out how to stop dragging the motor around ever since I moved the motor to the well 4 years ago.  I've looked at a lot of solutions to the problem (Ebb's radical rebuilding of his lazarette and cockpit bulkhead; the Rhodes 22 system, the Breeze system Dan shared with us, etc.) without finding THE perfect solution.  Probably because THE perfect solution for my boat doesn't exist - yet.  But taking bits and pieces of virtually every system I've seen, I've come up with my solution.

Since I haven't gotten to the "some assembly required" stage (I'm still measuring, remeasuring, and double checking everything), I doen't have pics of the real thing to share.  Best I can do is this representation.



The "stern" rail is not at the stern.  It will be over the forward edge of the laz hatch, and will be 5' long and around 24" high.  I will also be able to run cockpit lifelines from it.  The diagonal braces will strengthen the support/stern rail, but the exact placement/spacing will be determined when we test fit everything. The slide rails will be 12" - 15" apart, will tie into the support rail with T fittings, and extend into the laz hatch and be supported at the bottom on a platform being built into the new well construction.  The representation doesn't show the rigging and bracket/platform on the rail above the slide rails for the lifting mechanism.

I picked up the fittings I need this afternoon, and my buddy will be ordering the stainless tubing on Monday.  We ought to be at the measuring and cutting stage next weekend!  :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Looks like a good plan... I'm looking forward to see how it progresses and how it works out. 

I've been doing a lot of the groundbreaking on developments for my boat, since the boat itself is pretty new, and most of the owners haven't done that much in the way of modifying the boat yet.  BTW, got started on the bridgedeck today.. ;)

[Captain Smollett]

  But taking bits and pieces of virtually every system I've seen, I've come up with my solution.

Ah, yes, the tried and true practice of engineering.  :)

Good luck with the project, Bob.  I look forward to seeing how it turns out.  Hopefully, I can then "borrow" some of it for one of MY projects....

[CapnK]

Oooh - *now* I get it! Neat idea, Bob. You've gotten my wheels turning on this, it might be a solution for me, too...

I have been having mental debates about getting a smaller motor for the Big Trip, going more Pardy-ish, because of the weight issues with the 6hp 4stk I have. Something just large enough to not have to short tack/row up a strange, narrow port entrance.

Drawbacks, as I see it, to my current o/b: 55#'s IIRC, and out on the very end of the boat. Laid down in the locker, the head will be lower than recommended when on one tack. It'll be a pain to mount and unmount, for relatively little use.

There was a guy in the marina overnight, onboard a Herreshroff H-12*** that had a Honda 2hp 4stk. It was looking pretty good, ran quiet, seemed pretty lightweight...


***(Neat, good lookin' boat! Invited him here. He and his cousin were enroute, Savannah GA to Wrightsville, NC - 2 week trip, overnighting in motels along the way. He runs this website: http://www.classicboatrally.com . I told him he would meet some similar souls here... :) )

[AdriftAtSea]

One nice thing about the Honda 2 HP... it is air cooled, so a bit simpler than most.  One problem with it...no transmission... needs to be turned 180˚ to effectively get reverse gear.

[s/v Faith]

..... Something just large enough to not have to short tack/row up a strange, narrow port entrance.

FWIW,

  While the calculators say you need 4 hp to get an Ariel to hull speed, I have made 5 knots with my Johnson 3 hp in the well.  You and I have the same engines, you might already have the motor you need.  The internal tank would not give you much range, it would be easy enough to add a connection to a remote tank.

  Just a thought.

[Fortis]

I'm sorry, and I know my opinion is only one in the crowd, but I do not like that rail system. It is overdone and inelegant. By that I mean that it "costs" you more then it gains you. You will lose a good deal of proactical access to the aft deck and the rear locker. It will make your cockpit space seem pschologically smaller in the same way that a small lawn fence still defines a boundary and provides scale around a house.

I do not think it needs to go all the way across the boat unless you want to mount you traveller on the top of it (which you could do by using a top bar of rectangular RHS in 316 SS). lifting the traveller like that would actually expand cockpit space somewhat as the mainsheet would no longer be angled in so much of the time and someone could get in under it a bit better.

On the other hand, for the weight of engine you are dealing with, a simple tube structure that goes vertically, does a 90degree bend, runs across and then does another 90 and drops back to the deck will be more then sufficient, provided it is well made, and has decent bracing at deck level and a good backing plate below deck. You can also hang cockpit tables and things off it when not sailing. If you want to overengineer then go to 1.25inch tubing instead of 1inch...it will be plenty sturdy enough. It really is about how you attach it to the deck. Bigger base plates to spread the side loads, decent backing plate...Problem soled. This of it this way, that solution is what works for holding the padeye onto your deck, which is designed for a sudden crashing sideload of a fully grown man hitting the water and the boat still travelling at 8 knots or so. And it is at ONE point of contact and it does not tear out of the deck. Your outboard weighs how much less then you do, does not have a shock load of 2 tons of boat travelling at 8 knots etc etc etc. It will be strong enough.

Do not give up your back deck to what most people will think is a roll cage for taking your boat off-road rallying.


Cheers.

Alex.

[BobW]

Alex -

Thank you for taking the time to comment upon and critique my motor lift rail system.  There is certainly no need to apologize for having an opinion and sharing it.

My original thought – and before Dan provided the link to the Eze-Slide lift system - was to install a pair of support rails spanning the lazarette hatch fore and aft to support slide tracks built using HDPE (I won't go into the details here, as the plan has evolved past that stage). Trying to fit the tube-slide concept into the motor, it never occurred to me that the slide could be self-supporting.  I could "see" how the lower end could be mounted directly to a base in the lazarette, but I couldn't figure out how to support the top of the lift.  What I came up with was a short rail just a bit wider/longer than the lift itself.  But some of the issues you raised came into play and I decided to lengthen the rail to cross the after deck.

You are probably correct that the placement of the rail will psychologically "close" in the cockpit, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.  Prelude has a large cockpit, low freeboard, no stern rail, and no cockpit lifelines.  There are times when sailing her I feel very exposed – psychologically and actually.  Installing the rail at the foreward edge of the lazarette hatch provides the support for the lift, "closes" in the cockpit a bit, and provides terminal points for lifelines. 

Practical access to the after deck and lazarette will be a bit more restricted than it is now, but not eliminated.  As a practical matter the after deck is not used for anything now.  In the 4 years I've owned the boat, the after deck has been little more than a place to set tools down when working on the cockpit.  Yes, at times, I need to adjust the backstay, and possibly tend to the stern light, but the rail won't interfere with that access.  I don't see installing this rail as giving up the after deck, and I may be missing something, but what do I need access to the aft deck for that the rail will significantly interfere with?  The lazarette is not currently being used to store anything at all.  I am rebuilding the motor well and re-decking the lazarette as part of this project.  I intend to put the fuel tank and extra fuel in that space, but there is – and will be – adequate access for that purpose.   It is not the traditional design or placement for a stern rail, but I'm not sure why this rail will be viewed as an off-road roll-cage any more than the paraphernalia many boats have installed.

I do welcome everyone's comments, and I will give serious consideration to the design changes you suggested. 

Thanks.

[Leroy - Gulf 29]

I kinda liked Alex's idea of moving the traveller to the top of the rail ala Catalina 22.  With the setup you have proposed, you could put an adjustable backstay on and route the line from the blocks to the cockpit.  I wouldn't make 90's in the ends of the cross piece but rather bend the tubing.  I just think it'd look cleaner, unless you went the traveler route.  Also you could make a pushpit that wrapped onto the sides of the cockpit a bit, and incorporate the lift into that.  Looks like you're having fun at it!   ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I'd third alex's idea of moving the traveler... if you can anchor the railing down and make it strong enough, it would make an excellent spot for the traveler.

[BobW]

So, what's the advantage of moving the traveler to the rail?

[winkali]

G'day folks I have a similar problem. My outboard is in a well under the port side cockpit seat, so it is off centre. I'm using a tohatsu 9.8hp 2 stroke. Sadly I have to sail with the motor in the water and I reckon it knocks a half to one knot off my speed. I would love to mount it more centered and still in a well but have the ability to lift it straight up. Just another thing to work on. As long as I am turning to Starboard its okay but try turning to port from a standing start ie: no water flowing over the rudder and its great fun. I've found a couple of tricks so I just keep practising. I will watch with envy to see peoples solutions. I have seen a couple of setups for lifting the motor in my area and will try to get some happy snaps and post them, maybe they will be of help.
George
8) 8)

[CapnK]

George - that's an interesting setup. What kind of boat is it? I've never seen an off-center o/b well, do you have any pictures handy?

[winkali]

I don't have any happy snaps at present but I will take a couple this weekend. My boat is a Triton 24 designed by John Alsop in the early 70s. They are closer to 25ft and were a popular design in there day. They have a fin keel with balanced spade rudder. I know of one which did a circumnavigation via Cape Horn' they are a solid boat but I don't think Alsop was thinking of sailing around the Horn. He was a Qantas Pilot at the time. I am getting used to the off centre mount but it would be much easier if it were centred.
George

[BobW]

It's been kind of a rough year, and boat projects have taken a back seat.  But I have continued - albeit at a very slow pace - working on the motor lift.

Last weekend I installed a prototype lift.  I call it a prototype because I am not pleased with the fit/finish, and because I used some temporary materials, which will be replaced once I get the details ironed out.  The rails, for instance, used in the prototype are aluminum.  This lets me test different lengths without chopping up a bunch of stainless.  I also used plywood for the motor mount board, but plan to rebuild it using hardwood.

So, here it is...



It will be shortened by about 6", and it does need support braces (the fittings for the braces are not in their correct position in the pic)  But the most important thing is, it works!