Hanks or Roller: Question for the Hank-On Crowd

[CharlieJ]

One HUGE difference in changing headsails with hanks vs a foil.

With hanks, when you drop the sail, it's still attached to the headstay. As you remove the hanks ( or at least as I do) the sail gets stuffed into a bag. At any rate, it's contained.

When you are removing a sail from a foil, there's nothing holding the luff as you remove it, and with the wire luff, it can be tough to control the sail until it's all out. I've seen more than one boat shrimping with a jib because it slid overboard while being lowered.

I fully understand that many many people have come to feel that a roller furler is the end all of head sails, but we just don't feel that way.

Oh, and we carry one extra jib- a big genoa for light air use. This doesn't count the assymetrical spinnaker of course

[thistlecap]

Furling sails are great for inland gunkholing, or for the geriatric set, of which I are one.  But even having entered that unfortunate group, I hold as I always have.  While they have a place for daysailing, for sailing school boats that just run in and out and almost never see serious weather (and even there I feel new sailors should be taught how to properly set and douse sails), for casual gunkholing. However, roller furling sails, main or headsail, have no business whatsoever offshore.  This isn't a position held from not being familiar with furling gear.  I've taught sailing on all sorts of craft for 29 years, including teaching how to set and furl self-furling sails, and at least 90% of the boats had furling gear.  I had my own delivery company for ten years , also running for other companies, doing trans-ocean and US to Caribbean deliveries, Pacific, and Panama Canal.  Many of those boats had various sorts of furling gear.  But I can also say of the emergencies I've had offshore, 90% or more have involved furling gear.  There is the school of thought that becomes ever more prevalent, that offshore boats should have more and more gadgets and trinkets.  I hold that offshore is where KISS is most important.  If you can't make it, rebuild it, repair it or replace it with what you have on board, it should never come aboard to begin with.  You can continue on to the Med after the electrical power shorts out, as has happened, but you can't after your rig starts to unravel.  There are furling failures that cause long hours on deck, invariably at night, on a tossing deck with seas breaking over the bow, and that becomes a safety issue.  If needed, you can change a headsail in minutes, but repairing furling gear usually takes hours.  There are many boats that have gotton in serious trouble precipitated by furling failure.  There are boats that have shaken apart and sustained other rigging damage and had to be abandoned at sea because of furling failures, although I'll add that some of them were abandoned because the inexperienced crew were just freaked out by the violent motion and noise.  I'll condense with this.  We sailed into Faial in the spring of 1992, supposed to be one of the roughest North Atlantic springs on record.  While in a chandlery, a couple sailors were talking about trying to replace furling equipment and sails.  This was after we had sat in the harbor watching a parade of boats entering with countless sail and rigging damage caused by furling failures.  I started into my thoughts on furling gear, and noticed the chandler smiling more and more as I went on.  He motioned to me and said he'd like to show me something.  When we got out behind the chandlery, there was a pile of furling gear laid out lengthwise, that probably was a dozen feet across the base of the triangle, and several feet high.  He added that he agreed with me totally, but shrugged and added, "Of course furling equipment brings me a lot of business."  I'll concede that furling gear has made advances over the years, and many people use it at sea with no serious ill effect.  But to keep things simple, virtually trouble free, more inexpensive, minimizing maintenance, and wanting to get things to happen the way they should every time without failure, you can't beat hanked sails.  If a downhaul is used and halyards lead direct with a minimum of turning blocks, sails will come down of their own weight 75% of the way, and dropped the rest of the way with the downhaul, and land totally on deck in an instant.  Another sail can be preset with its own sheets and ready to hoist in a couple minutes.  So, to answer the original question, I've never had furling gear on my own boat, never will, and if someone wanted to give me a complete set up worth thousands of dollars for free, would I take it? No.

[maxiSwede]

#2 performance - a RF headsail is not very good in light air, or heavy air, but quite OK in between

Your other points have merit, but I don't follow this one. Could it be that many or most people with RF don't tune their rigs for conditions? Or are you assuming people with RF don't do sail changes?

Hi Auspicious and congrats to an active way of sailing with a roller-furler headsail!  ;D

re  your question - Yes, I was assuming 'people with RF don't change sails. Why? simply because that's what I've seen. 95% of those I have encountered never change it, and it cannot be made for everything from 2-40 knots of wind so...thus my comment on performance. Most people I see never fly a spinnaker either....

All the best  ;)

[Oldrig]

This is always a hot topic on any of the sailing forums that I monitor.

After reading this interesting thread, I'm gonna jump in, knowing that I'm in the minority of contributors to this discussion:

One of the first changes I made to my Cape Dory 25D was to install a Harken roller furling system. The previous owner had a collection of very old, often mismatched hank-on headsails, and he swore by the hank-on system. He also used his SeaRanger Loran-C unit and "never bothered with" GPS.

But--and here's the kicker--he always sailed with his wife, and she was very handy on the foredeck, he said. (It was her arthritis that eventually led them to give up sailing, he told me.) Well, I almost always sail alone, and I've found the roller furling unit to be a blessing.

Like Auspicious, I have two headsails, a 130-percent genoa with a rope luff pad that I sail with most of the time. On Buzzards Bay, that usually means furling it to about 110 percent once the summer southwesterlies pipe up in the afternoon. I've also got a working jib (Charlie, the P.O. called it his storm jib) that I use in the spring and fall, or if I know the conditions are going to be windy.

When required, I reef both headsails on the fly, even though I know that doing so compromises performance.

I've had the roller-furling system for four seasons now, and haven't had any problems with it to date. I check it over at the beginning of the season, and check it again before taking a cruise.

That said, I understand and respect what Thistlecap and MaxiSwede and others have said: I haven't taken this rig into much blue water, and I'm not sure that I'd want to, unless I had some kind of backup system.

One thing that's crossed my mind is to rig a second halyard, which would at least allow me to switch my headsails fairly quickly (though not if the boat were really tossing around), as the furler has two tracks. My boat is not set up for a spinnaker right now, and I'd certainly need a second halyard for that anyway.

All in all, I would say that I am very satisfied with my furling system, certainly for the kind of sailing that I've been doing for most of my life. If I ever join the Scoot List, maybe (just maybe) I'd rethink this.

--Joe

[okawbow]

I like my hank-on jibs. I've sailed on boats with roller furlers and never seemed to be able to get the jib to look right. I've also seen roller jibs destroyed in high winds while my hank-ons were safely stored in side. It's just too easy for some to leave their jibs on the furler instead of removing them when leaving the boat. If I do any more off shore sailing, I plan on adding reef points to my working jib.

[Auspicious]

Yes, I was assuming 'people with RF don't change sails.

My observation matches yours. I offer that we are discussing the common behaviors of the people who buy RF as opposed to a shortcoming of the RF itself.

An additional problem is the shape of the sail when using the RF to reef. My 100 (no padding) keeps its shape pretty well down to about an 85 if I foot off about 10 degrees. I'm usually better off with the staysail than the reefed 100.

The 135 (with luff pad) only rolls down to about 120 before it poops out. Usually I leave the whole sail up and pinch a bit (*grin*).

I think I said earlier that if you are going to change sails anyway it is easier with most RF systems than hanks. Another benefit of smaller boats: dragging my 135 up from the sail locker by myself is a real chore. Of course it would be just as much of a chore with hanks. The sail control issue someone brought up (hanks stacking up at the bottom of the forestay is an excellent point.

sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious

[CaptMac]

Hank on = KISS :D

RF = Murphy's Law  >:(

[Captain Smollett]

Just a reminder - this thread was NOT intended to be a hank-on vs roller furling debate per se....there are enough of those.

I simply wanted to know that if you are a hank-on proponent (like me), what, if anything, would make you switch to RF.  In other words, what are the underlying reasons you prefer the extra 'work' of hanks.

For my part, since I asked the question and did not answer it for myself, if given a furler, I would sell it and use the money for some other project/upgrade.  My concerns are reliability; recognizing that the gear has improved over the last decade, my CONCERN about the reliability remains very real.

To me, it's also psychological - I reject the premise that RF is somehow intrinsically safer because it somehow makes sailing 'easier.'  I know that not all RF advocates adopt this view, but some do.  For what it's worth, these probably tend to be those either only TALK about sailing (not actually sailing) or those that mostly ONLY sail in 'ideal' conditions anyway.

[Auspicious]

Ever had a hank freeze up? Not so good, although not as bad as a RF jamming half-way furled.

I think there is an aesthetic component also. An Alberg 30 would look odd to me with a RF drum on the bottom of the forestay.

[maxiSwede]

I simply wanted to know that if you are a hank-on proponent (like me), what, if anything, would make you switch to RF.  In other words, what are the underlying reasons you prefer the extra 'work' of hanks.

If/when age or health issues would prevent me from being able to crouch, sit or stand on my knees on foredeck - then I would definitely go for a RF. I would also add an inner forestay so I could fly a storm jib on it.

[Captain Smollett]

Ever had a hank freeze up? Not so good, although not as bad as a RF jamming half-way furled.

Do you mean the hank freeze up so you cannot remove the sail from the stay?

No, I have not had that happen.  If it did, at least the sail would be DOWN.  Also, if I HAD to get it off, a knife (lashed hanks) or a bolt cutter (cut the clasp of the hank) or some such would make short work of it.  Right?   ;)

I have never had a hanked sail NOT come down when I wanted it down.

[Amgine]

I had hanks freeze up on the 25 year old genoa when I wanted to take a winter break... It tipped me over to buying new sails (which I'd been saving for, but hadn't quite reached the top of my priority list.) If it had happened at sea? not a problem - you can almost always set a jib completely flying for off the wind work, and even get to windward as long it doesn't have to be pretty or fast. Dropping it might be messy, but as Capt Smollet points out it's doable.

The sail I built from a kit has knock-on hanks, which cannot freeze up like the piston hanks. They can fail *open*, but not closed. I wish I'd asked for those on the new sails, but I forgot to ask.

[Frank]

This is a fun topic...kinda like anchors...or anchoring .... ;D

[boatyardpirates]

I prefer the best of both worlds.  Ask and 9 of 10 riggers will tell the Harken cruising furing systme is a top rated no nonsense and can be eaisly maintained while cruising.  I sail a 24' Allegra cutter.  We are in the final stages of a complete re-fit for blue water cruising and using the same setup we had on our Flicka.  Our forstay will have a roller with a 135 plus a very light 150 that will be hankless with a wire luff.  Our staysail has a single reef.  Battenless main 3 reef points not great for going to weather but good for heaving.  No trysail we will be circumnavigation in season and simply wont have a tri since we are on a budget.  Number one luxery sail would be a tri.  Ali
www.boatyardpirates.com

[Amgine]

One of the things I think about when looking at gear is: what are current boats wearing when they arrive in far away places? And the reality is most of them have RF. In fact, I'd go on a limb and say that boats making it to the PNW are more uniformly sporting a RF than any other thing - they're not homogenous in rig, keel type, gas/diesel/outboard/none, tiller/wheel. But well into 90% have RF.

And the PNW is not an easy place to arrive at from far, far away.

I have a knee-jerk opposition to RF due to a couple bad experiences with it, but I have to admit both of those were very old hardware that might not have received proper maintenance in their lifetime. And I hate expensive gear that I cannot easily repair myself at anchor in a cove in the middle of nowhere. But I still have a diesel engine. So if I could, I'd probably have RF too.

But I don't.

[Tim]

This is a fun topic...kinda like anchors...or anchoring .... ;D

And when we are done with this one I was going to bring up anchor rode (sizes, styles, lengths etc.) anD SHACKLES AND SWIVELS  ;D ;D ;D


8)

[CapnK]

{clink clink}...  ;D

If someone gave me one of these: ProFurl Continuous Line NEC Furling System and a matching suit of sails that could use them (maybe a light 150, reefing 130, reefing 100, & asy/cruising spin) I would play with the system for a bit, and if it worked, maybe even like it. ;) I think that I'd go for at least a size bigger than what a racer would use AFA the structural elements, or at least large enough that I could tension the luff up very tight and wind up going through horrible conditions without fear of failure. Assuming that one could get the luff as tight as the forestay, sail shape should be good, and it sounds like the sails stow easily. IF they are what I think they are (not having personal experience with them), it seems like it might be a workable solution that offers some of the advantages of both systems; Quick sail changes, less weight aloft, basically a double headstay when a sail is hoisted, ease of roller furling, etc... Sounds great, doesn't it? ;D

But not a normal reefing furler, no thanks. I have other, better things to spend I could spend that money on. :) I know that lots of folks cruise with them and like them (to each their own, and more power to them, if they do), I fully understand and work on them, and they're just not for me. It's the KISS thing, the simple utilitarian beauty of hanks that appeals. A simple furling sail that can be dropped easily instantly and changed fast has a similar appeal. If it works.  :)

[thistlecap]

Frozen hank pistons are a simple maintenance issue.  They should work in and out with no effort.  If they've accumulated salt or other corrosives and start to work slowly, they need to be lubricated and worked free.  I lube at the beginning of the season, and before going offshore, and give them a good freshwater spraying on making landfall.  I use a very light oil before layup, as too much oil may leak out onto the sail.  I've used an assortment of lubes, and don't seem to favor any particular one.  To free a slow piston, WD-40 or PB Blaster helps to free them, but WD-40 evaporates and leaves no residual lubricating.  If a piston gets bent, there'd no help for it but to replace it.  Laced hanks are preferred as they cause no chaff to the eyelets, sail, or boltrope.

[David_Old_Jersey]

An interesting thread.

My experiance of hanked on sails is not as extensive as others (at least not in serious cruising) - but I do well remember as a child being foredeck crew with hanked on sails, whilst the Captain remained at the helm  ::) - not quite as bad as it sounds given rare to swap sails on passage, mainly raising and lowering at the start and end of a day passage or day sail.

But I recall being pleased when the Captain fitted RF  ;D

My last boat had hanked on sails (21 Foot) and was used mainly singlehanded for the same sort of near home sailing. The main thing I found with the hank ons was that raising and lowering a foresail was a PITA singlehanded, both from the restricted room on the foredeck on a small boat, it being also somewhat bouncy (both from weather and wash from other vessels) and as I had no autopilot the boat had a tendency to change direction. inconveniantely - although no doubt on the latter point a degree of technique was probably sadly lacking  ;D The main restriction was that I needed to get a fair bit of searoom from port before going on deck to raise the sails.

Notwithstanding the above I do like the concept of Hank on sails (especially a foresail that could be reefed - I only learnt about that recently  :o), but I won't be removing the RF on my current boat any time soon  ;D But, I am conscious that the RF on my boat is kinda old, so I am wary that it may have issues sooner or later - at present on the rig I seem to be working from the stern forward with the refurb (she's a 30' Ketch) - and as I want a new foresail in due course I am kicking around the idea that next year she will get a bowsprit  8) for both a large RF foresail (and so the Anchor can self stow), coupled with an inner forestay for a hanked on (and reefable) jib..........but time and pocket book will tell on that one - and at the moment I am not sure whether that would be the best of both worlds. or the worst  :P.

[nowell]

Im curious how slab reefing works in a head sail? I have a picture in my mind from how I did my main, but does anyone have a rough diagram, or a link that I can look at to make sure im picturing it correctly?