Hanks or Roller: Question for the Hank-On Crowd

[Frank]

Check CJ's posts.He has a good pic of his jib flying with reef points.

[nowell]

Yea i've seen his pics, but I don't recall seeing it rigged (if he even does keep it rigged) for reefing from the cockpit. I will double check however.

[CharlieJ]

I do not keep it rigged for reefing from the cockpit. I don't have ANY sails rigged for that- reefing from the cockpit that is- I reef at the mast.

I only rig the ties when we're going to be offshore. If sailing inshore, there's usually ample time to rig if the weather is looking iffy, BEFORE it's needed. I DO keep the pennant attached a the reef tack.

Same reason I only keep the first reef rove through on the main sail when sailing around here- no need to have the chafe on inshore sails. Offshore is totally a different animal.

That said, if you will get a copy of Bruce Bingham's "Sailors Sketchbook" and look on page 22, you'll find a complete description of how to do it from the cockpit.

[CapnK]

Smollett - you have my shipping address, for where to send that furler and set of sails, right?

;D :D ;D

[Captain Smollett]

Smollett - you have my shipping address, for where to send that furler and set of sails, right?

;D :D ;D

LOL, I'd hate to cause Katie to sit by the head from that furling gear...

[Frank]

Just having fun with this and suspect it may turn into an "anchor type" disscussion  ;D

I have been a 'hank-on' guy by choice for all the typical reasons....simpler, easier, cheaper, less chance of malfunction/breakage etc.
I have always had a reef point in my jibs and found much better sail shape with the reef tucked in than a roller furled jib.

BUT

After cruising last winter on a boat where roller furling came standard...I gotta admit...I loved it!!
Maybe its age, maybe it's laziness....but it was a nice feature and I was glad to have it. Oooops...did I say that  ;D

[marujo_sortudo]

Like so many choices on a boat, there's lots of advantages to whatever you choose, but none of them come free.  I think the best choice depends on what kind of sailing you want to do, and what kind of boat you have.  I'll throw in free-flying as an option just to make the discussion more complicated :).

Hanks:
- Can drop sail on almost any point of sail
- If you have a bowsprit, may need to go out on it for sail changes (depends on rig)
- Can fly any sail
- Probably makes for easiest single-handed sail changes

Roller-furling:
- Usually furl sail going to or across the wind
- Can fly some sails without removing jib: Asym. spinnaker, ATN Gale Sail, storm jib on baby stay, etc.
- Can often furl or unfurl sail single-handed from cockpit
- Somewhat heavier sail because of UV cover and foam
- Extra weight/windage aloft, including more forward windage at anchor (presumably more yawing)
- Slightly poorer sail performance due to windage around foil and headstay sag from foil weight
- When a furler fails, getting down a sail can be difficult/dangerous
- Reefs well above deck (i.e. high center of effort, undesirable) and often with poor shape

Free-flying:
- Usually drop sail going broad reaching/running (to blanket jib with main)
- Most sails need either wire or high-tech line luff
- Sails with wire luffs need more stowage space
- With some setups can furl and then drop sail, making for convenient stowage and the ability to drop sail on other points of sail
- Often need headstay in addition to sail luff, and sail can sometimes get wrapped around/tangled with headstay
- Added difficulty with bigger sails or bigger winds

Here's some more threads on the subject:
http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/showthread.php?t=2228
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/hank-on-or-furling-head-sails-60888-2.html
Google... head sail furling vs hanked on hanks ... for even more opinions

I think it depends a lot on your boat and how you sail.  For instance,

Do you usually have crew or single-hand?
What kind of rig?
What size boat/sails?
Do you have/want a light air sail inventory?
Do you turn on the motor whenever sailing gets "slow"?
Will you be making lots of passages, staying coastal, or somewhere in between?
Etc., etc....

Oh, and then there's the cost consideration :)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Personally on a Sailfar sized boat, I wouldn't bother to fit a Roller (IMO money spent better elsewhere) - but if one was already fitted I wouldn't remove it!

One of the many things that are not neccessary - but nonetheless are nice to have.

[matt195583]

I just replace the furling unit on my boat and it seemed like a good idea at the time. then there were a few headaches fitting the new unit and the realization that for the sane money i could have had hanks on my old sail and 2 new sails ......
I think if i were to make that decision again i would have gone back to hanks.

[CharlieJ]

Both Necessity and Tehani have hank on jibs. Two on aboard Tehani, one with reef points, and three on Necessity.

I like hanked on generally, but on my fairly recent trip from the Chesapeake around to Texas single hand, I sure was wishing I had a roller furler. Many times I could have used the jib  for 30-40 minutes, had I been able to just "roll it out-roll it in". Many of those times I was in waters that were too restricted to let me leave the helm long enough to set a jib, so I just didn't.

Now,on Necessity I do have the jib halyard led aft, and a down haul rigged, which would have helped.

I think  the roller furler really comes into it's own aboard larger boats where the head sails start to get heavy. Did a delivery on a Irwin 46, where it was all I could do to CARRY the jib when it was off the furler. So dragging another sail up front and setting it would have been a real workout for one person. On the 41'r delivery I was on last year, when we had  to remove the jib from the furler for repairs, it was a BIG job. Fairly simple tied to a dock, but would have been a toughie at sea

One drawback to hank ons though, particularly on smaller CRUISING boats, is simply stowage*- where do you put them? I've seen some long distance sailors keeping jibs in bags on deck, because there was just plain no room below. But I'll live with that, and keep my hanks.

*Note - aboard a boat it's properly called "Stowage" not "Storage"

[s/v Faith]

I agree. 

  You are more likely to actually roll out some jib when it is just a question of rolling it out...

Yes, hank on jibs have their advantages, but I will keep my roller and I prefer them on boats I deliver.

Especially when they are larger then sailfar size.

[CharlieJ]

I
Especially when they are larger then sailfar size.

I think that's the big key

[Captain Smollett]

I do not want to get into the hanks VERSUS roller furling because I think that's not the right question.  More on this in a bit.

  You are more likely to actually roll out some jib when it is just a question of rolling it out...

And yet all those boats with roller furling still seem to never get used.

One fellow YELLED at me in the marina lounge one day (because I told a newbie, very casual sailor, who was also very "income challenged," that he would not need rf for his 23 foot Pearson) that "you HAVE to have roller furling!!"

I never saw his boat leave the marina except under power, and he's the same dude that said sailing was too much work so he just motors everywhere.

In the same conversation, another dude said "You HAVE to have RF...it's just SO MUCH EASIER!"  I never saw his boats leave the marina either until he got kicked out.

Nearly every day, I see sail boats with roller furling gear motoring, often in good sailing breeze.  No headsail rolled out.

So, the question to my mind is not the gear but the sailor.  I know sailors that raise sail at or just after leaving the dock...hanks or furler.  They sail the boat.  For them, RF might make sailing easier and more convenient.

My biggest problem with rf relates to this point.  Whether it's rf on the headsail, halyards led aft, whiz-bang chart plotters or whatever "gear" you describe, the dependency on said gear is a very real fundamental seamanship and safety issue.

I completely deny rf or other gear makes you safer because you 'never' have to leave the cockpit.  I believe you WILL someday need to leave the cockpit, and when that day comes, you are at a disadvantage because somewhere in the recesses of your mind it's not something you want to do.  Doing "scary" things takes training and practice.  As we say around here, "use makes master."

For the able sailor who is not just willing but actually comfortable on the foredeck in 10 foot (or bigger) seas who chooses to use rf...more power to him.  His boat, his choice.

For the person who is installing (or seeks a boat already equipped with) such gear to get around the real tasks of sailing a boat, I'd say "Please stay home until you can operate comfortably without it.  Until then, you are a threat to yourself and others."  These are the same people, at least the ones I quoted above are, who call for help at the first sign of "discomfort" underway.  His word, not mine.

This is the big problem with "must-have" lists of gear.  They remove the responsibility from the skipper to a perception that 'safe operation' can be purchased.  That is a very dangerous illusion to plant into the minds of new sailors.

Like an examination of any technology, my problem is not with the gear itself, but the spirit in which it's used.  The gear cannot be a substitute for proper seamanship, though that is exactly what it has become.

For my part, I like that hanks or hand plotting are a little more work.  To me, that's the spiritual gift.  Making things too easy cheapens them.  Then again, sometimes I think I was born out of time and the 17th century Quakers are more to my style.

[JWalker]

I think when we get maddy back in the water from her refit I will be putting RF on her.

You sure dont *need* RF, but I did note many times in our last trip where I would have pulled the sail out for 30 or 40 mins
on a calm day when the wind breezed up....but because I would have had to get the bag out, unroll the sail, hank it on,
and then raise it...it just seemed like by the time I did all that the breeze would die back down.

Also when we ended up coming into anchor late, there were evenings when I was REALLY tempted to leave the sail on the fordeck
and collapse into a bunk. I think it would be nice to be able to roll the thing up and be done with it till the next day.

There were enough times I noted to myself a theoretical benefit, that I think it is worth while for us to put one on for the
coastal sailing we plan to do. :)

I for one however never once missed it when sailing from the marina. :D

[Captain Smollett]

....but because I would have had to get the bag out, unroll the sail, hank it on,
and then raise it...it just seemed like by the time I did all that the breeze would die back down.

Also when we ended up coming into anchor late, there were evenings when I was REALLY tempted to leave the sail on the fordeck
and collapse into a bunk. I think it would be nice to be able to roll the thing up and be done with it till the next day.

Keep it hanked on in a bag on the foredeck?

Generally speaking, if I am underway, even motoring, I prefer my sails ready to go:

Main: sail cover off, halyard rigged, minimal ties (that can be undone in seconds) unless the wind is really up.

Jib/Genoa: hanked on, halyard rigged, usually only one tie (tying sail and halyard to pulpit or a stanchion), sheets lead.

As a detail, I tie my headsail sail ties to the stanchion with long tails, then the tails get tied around the sail (and halyard) with a slip-reef knot.  This can be undone with a single pull and I don't have the time lost dealing with the tie....it stays tied to the stanchion, where it is ready to be used when I drop the sail.

I learned the value of this lesson when I was mere seconds from hitting a bridge I could not clear when the engine failed.  The only way to get steerage way, and avoid collision, was under sail.  It took seconds to get the headsail up and drawing and the boat steerable: I pulled one or two ties, jumped the halyard, cleated it off and sheeted home. 

"Luck favors the prepared."

Furling might have been quicker, but the difference would have been academic as in this case it was quick enough, and that bridge was CLOSE!   :o

I'd rather rag out a sail having it sit unused in the sun and have it ready when needed than to have it stowed below when I need it.  That said, there's no reason it cannot be bagged, hanked on and ready to raise in a mere moment.

Not trying to sound preachy, but hoisting a ready hanked-on sail does not take much longer nor much more work than unfurling a rolled sail.  The work is the prep of hanking it on and leading the sheets, which is done essentially once per trip (not per day), at the dock, mooring or anchor.

The sails are the boat's primary propulsion, and they need to be ready to go.  Too often, we warm up our engines and check fuel and other 'preps' before getting underway, but neglect the sails.  In my case, I usually pay, even in a small way, for lack of preparations.

[CharlieJ]

A partial answer to the jib on deck,, is a jib bag. Roll it up, kinda sorta, sheets still attached, hanks still on headstay, shove it in the bag, and zip it closed.

Also now doesn't have to go  below.

[marujo_sortudo]

For sails (esp. Head sails) left hanked on (in or out of a zippered bag,) an extra nice safety feature is a short line attached to the base of the stay with a clip on it that can reach the halyard shackle to keep the sail from hoisting itself in a blow. I have read of cases (Cabo San Lucas '82 comes to mind) of boats being lost when a jib raised itself from within a zippered bag and the boat was lost as a result.  Rare case, but very easy to add an extra stop.  I have one rigged on my staysail and it works wonderfully.  The staysail is hanked and lives on deck (with a sail cover and a sail tie when put away.)

[JWalker]

We kept the jib hanked on, in the bag on the deck most of the time unless it was high wind at anchor. The lines were not led, but in the bag.

I still didn't ultimately bother to go up and lead the lines, pull it up, drop it, re-secure it to the lifelines ect ect for the hope of 20 or 30 mins of wind, which often actually ended up being 10 mins or less.

We also kept the front of the mainsail cover off, and had four turny thingys under the boom keeping it on which would come off very quickly.

I also ultimately did not raise the mainsail on those same days because I didnt want to have to reflake the sail in 20 mins. I also plan for lazy jacks.

In an emergency we could have  been under sail very quickly, but the reality is, we didnt get under sail in those finicky times. We sailed less. We motored more.

Call me lazy, but that is the reality of what went down, and in the future I believe that *FOR ME* a roller furler and lazy jacks will give me more time under sail. Which is kinda the point for me, so therefore I see it as a good investment  *FOR ME*.

8)

[Captain Smollett]

For sails (esp. Head sails) left hanked on (in or out of a zippered bag,) an extra nice safety feature is a short line attached to the base of the stay with a clip on it that can reach the halyard shackle to keep the sail from hoisting itself in a blow. I have read of cases (Cabo San Lucas '82 comes to mind) of boats being lost when a jib raised itself from within a zippered bag and the boat was lost as a result.  Rare case, but very easy to add an extra stop.  I have one rigged on my staysail and it works wonderfully.  The staysail is hanked and lives on deck (with a sail cover and a sail tie when put away.)

Which is precisely why I said...

"(tying sail and halyard to pulpit or a stanchion)"

;) ;D

Maybe it was not clear what I was doing, but yes, I agree 100% that tying the halyard down is SOP to prevent it or the sail going "up" when that's not desired, on both main and headsail.

Actually, on this topic, I'm working on a little gizmo that will double as a "halyard security" device when the sail is not used and tack attachment for reefing.  It's essentially a small bit of line with a shackle in the middle, a short leg and a longer leg, each with a loop spliced in the end.

With the main down, the line is passed through the head grommet until the shackle contacts the sail, the long leg passes under the gooseneck and the loop clips into the shackle.  For reefing, the setup is similar, but the short leg is used.

Not sure how it will work out, but that's the plan.

Call me lazy,

Not at all.  I hope my comments did not suggest that.

I was only responding to

"I would have had to get the bag out, unroll the sail, hank it on,
and then raise it...it just seemed like by the time I did all that the breeze would die back down. "

where it sounded like the sail bagged and stowed, and the sail was not 'ready.'  Perhaps I misunderstood.

In your situation, if you want to sail more before getting your RF installed, you might consider (a) getting the sail out of the bag, lead the lines, etc, and (b) rig a jib downhaul. Having it ready to go gets it up quickly, having the downhaul precludes the use of ties (and the need to go forward to untie them) and gets it down quickly (again, without ties if the wind is very light as you describe).

I've used a jib downhaul to good effect; it really is just about as quick as most furling operations I've seen (but admittedly more work, since with the halyard, you do have to "lift" the sail rather than just unroll it).

Just thinking "out loud...."

[marujo_sortudo]

Smollett,I just wanted to reinforce the point that a bag alone (esp. zippered) isn't sufficient.  Like your idea about the dual purpose line.  My staysail could use an easier reefing setup even though she's never been reefed in 20 some years (either by me or previous owners.). So far I've been in winds up in the 40's gusting into the 50's (knots, measured at deck level,) and it seems like a reef in the staysail could have been appropriate at that wind speed or a little higher.  Might as well make it easy for when it's finally needed.

Mimi Rose came with a RF and I am pretty ambivalent about it.   One bad squall and a sheet that tied itself to a lifeline in about 2 seconds while sailing on a lee shore my first year lowered my opinion of them, greatly.  Super convenient and nice stowage, though. I toy with the idea of getting rid of it regularly. I find that lots of folks don't sail no matter how many devices they have to make it easier.  Personally, I love playing with sails and will often be found hoisting, lowering, and trimming sails with a knotstick trailing behind to see if I can break the 1 knot barrier in a near calm.  For me, that's just fun and one of the things I love about sailing.  I find the days where you fight to sail just a few miles immensely satisfying.  I really look forward to having a drifter and cruising spinnaker someday...