U.S. Documented vessel discussion

Started by Zen, December 27, 2005, 08:07:52 PM

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AdriftAtSea

I meant to type ABROAD.  A USCG Documented boat is recognized as a USA flagged vessel.  A state registered boat is not.  A USCG Documented vessel does have some legal rights and protections granted to it as a US-flagged vessel, like getting assistance from the US consulate/embassy.

Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on May 15, 2008, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 15, 2008, 07:05:47 AM
There are quite a few advantages to being USCG documented. 

The first is that you are recognized as a USA-flagged vessel when abroad.  This gives you some legal rights and protections that state-registered vessels do not have, since states are not recognized as sovereign nations.  Your boat is effectively US soil when aboard.

Not sure if you meant "aboard" or typoed "abroad"....the former I do not know about (it's a purely US thing), but the latter is not strictly true (with possible exceptions in certain countries / US dependent territories).....but no point commenting at the moment  :)


s/v Pretty Gee
Telstar 28 Trimaran
Yet we get to know her, love her and be loved by her.... get to know about My Life With Gee at
http://blog.dankim.com/life-with-gee
The Scoot—click to find out more

Shipscarver

I am buying a boat from a guy who says he mailed in the documentation renewal (late) about 2 weeks ago. Anyone know how long it takes to get the paper back?
"The great secret that all old people share
is that you really haven't changed . . .
Your body changes, but you don't change at all.
And that, of course, causes great confusion." . . . Doris Lessing

Shipscarver - Cape Dory 27

AdriftAtSea

It only takes about a week to get the renewal back, but if he was late by two weeks, chances are pretty good that the USCG let the documentation lapse and it has to be re-applied for.

However, the old USCG documentation should give you enough information to complete the sale, as any liens on the boat should be registered against it.  I would add a line to the bill of sale or sales contract stating that the boat is being sold clear of any and all liens or claims against it—just to CYA about any possible existing liens or debts he may owe.  If he isn't willing to sign a sales contract with such a line in it...I'd walk away from the sale.
s/v Pretty Gee
Telstar 28 Trimaran
Yet we get to know her, love her and be loved by her.... get to know about My Life With Gee at
http://blog.dankim.com/life-with-gee
The Scoot—click to find out more

liberty28

Call...

Debbie Moore
Documentation Officer 1-B
National Vessel Documentation Center
1-800-799-8362

and ask.

Shipscarver

Thank you.  I did get things cleared up. They are very helpful.
Amazing - a government agency/person who really wanted to help.
"The great secret that all old people share
is that you really haven't changed . . .
Your body changes, but you don't change at all.
And that, of course, causes great confusion." . . . Doris Lessing

Shipscarver - Cape Dory 27

Auspicious

Craig's reference is entirely correct.

A couple of points -

The statement buried in the referenced thread that a US-flag boat is sovereign territory is not strictly true. You can be boarded by local law enforcement and are subject to local law (unlike the sovereign territory of a US Embassy for example).

The biggest issue is that (aside from the Bahamas that are used to FL state-registered boats) most countries are simply not prepared to deal with a state registration document. You'll be pretty unhappy with the extra time taken and the extra attention you receive. As more countries move to completely automated C&I systems the lengthy registration numbers some states use may not fit in the space provided in the C&I officer's computer application. A junior official is going to need more senior help to deal with that.

S/V Auspicious
HR 40 - a little big for SailFar but my heart is on small boats
Chesapeake Bay

Beware cut and paste sailors.

AdriftAtSea

I'd add that in many countries, a state-registered boat will have to check-in with customs multiple times and pay the required fees repeatedly.... which doesn't happen with a USCG documented boat.
s/v Pretty Gee
Telstar 28 Trimaran
Yet we get to know her, love her and be loved by her.... get to know about My Life With Gee at
http://blog.dankim.com/life-with-gee
The Scoot—click to find out more

Auspicious

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 28, 2009, 08:51:13 AM
I'd add that in many countries, a state-registered boat will have to check-in with customs multiple times and pay the required fees repeatedly.... which doesn't happen with a USCG documented boat.

Can you provide a source for that? I've never heard it before.
S/V Auspicious
HR 40 - a little big for SailFar but my heart is on small boats
Chesapeake Bay

Beware cut and paste sailors.

CharlieJ

Nor have I. Our boat isn't large enough to measure at five net tons, and I'd bet the Ariel's aren't either. No way we can document.

But I've never heard of any country charging multiple entries for state registration.
Charlie J

Lindsey 21 Necessity


On Matagorda Bay
On the Redneck Riviera

Tim

Quote from: CharlieJ on September 28, 2009, 12:00:54 PM
Nor have I. Our boat isn't large enough to measure at five net tons, and I'd bet the Ariel's aren't either. No way we can document.

But I've never heard of any country charging multiple entries for state registration.
Charlie a number of Ariels have been documented. I can no longer find the USCG interactive page that did the calcs, I do remember that I could make them work. It may have to do with being able to measure depth including keel because it is integrated.

Here is the link to the form

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/docs/CG-5397.pdf
"Mariah" Pearson Ariel #331, "Chiquita" CD Typhoon, M/V "Wild Blue" C-Dory 25

"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
W.A. Ward

s/v Faith

Quote from: Oldrig on May 15, 2008, 03:27:50 PM
The 5-ton requirement refers to "gross tons" of cargo space, not displacement.....
--Joe

  This is correct.  The Ariel / Commander is large enough, as are many of the other boats here.

The Displacement is the 'ad-measurement' formula displacement.  It is like cargo volume, if you could carry cargo loaded up to the very top of the deck... much greater number then the actual displacement.
Satisfaction is wanting what you already have.

Auspicious

Dan's comment on draft in this thread doesn't make any sense to me either - I'm open to information but in my experience the design draft has little to do with the maximum cargo draft (my words for clarity) that relates to net tonnage.
S/V Auspicious
HR 40 - a little big for SailFar but my heart is on small boats
Chesapeake Bay

Beware cut and paste sailors.

s/v Faith

Quote from: Auspicious on September 28, 2009, 06:37:53 PM
Dan's comment on draft in this thread doesn't make any sense to me either - I'm open to information but in my experience the design draft has little to do with the maximum cargo draft (my words for clarity) that relates to net tonnage.

Dave,

  Don't know which comment you are refering to, but it is neither the draft, or cargo draft... it is the measurement of how much cargo it WOULD hold if you filled it up to the gunnels...

  Take a look at the PDF form Tim posted a couple of posts back.  It should clear it up for you.
Satisfaction is wanting what you already have.

AdriftAtSea

This has happened to several cruisers I've met and spoken with personally. 
Quote from: Auspicious on September 28, 2009, 09:47:19 AM
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 28, 2009, 08:51:13 AM
I'd add that in many countries, a state-registered boat will have to check-in with customs multiple times and pay the required fees repeatedly.... which doesn't happen with a USCG documented boat.

Can you provide a source for that? I've never heard it before.
s/v Pretty Gee
Telstar 28 Trimaran
Yet we get to know her, love her and be loved by her.... get to know about My Life With Gee at
http://blog.dankim.com/life-with-gee
The Scoot—click to find out more

Lynx

Flickas can no longer be documented/ The ones that are are based on the older reg's.
MacGregor 26M

Auspicious

Quote from: s/v Faith on September 28, 2009, 07:30:32 PM
Quote from: Auspicious on September 28, 2009, 06:37:53 PM
Dan's comment on draft in this thread doesn't make any sense to me either - I'm open to information but in my experience the design draft has little to do with the maximum cargo draft (my words for clarity) that relates to net tonnage.

Dave,

  Don't know which comment you are refering to, but it is neither the draft, or cargo draft... it is the measurement of how much cargo it WOULD hold if you filled it up to the gunnels...

  Take a look at the PDF form Tim posted a couple of posts back.  It should clear it up for you.

Thanks Craig, but I'm clear on what net tonnage means! *grin* I was trying to clarify the matter without any success. My feeble attempt at a point was that the design draft mentioned isn't relevant to the calculation of net tonnage. In fact, the calculation used for small recreational boats is a simplified approximation based on empirical parameters to reduce the complexity of the documentation process.

Given a small boat (less than the documentation requirement) and a desire to travel outside the US beyond the Bahamas I think I would pursue NVDC for an exception. The effort might be fruitless but I think it is worth a try - can't hurt and might help. My experience with the good USCG folks in West Virginia has always been positive.
S/V Auspicious
HR 40 - a little big for SailFar but my heart is on small boats
Chesapeake Bay

Beware cut and paste sailors.

Tim

I suspect the way the Ariel makes the tonnage rule is by measuring the depth in this manner

"Mariah" Pearson Ariel #331, "Chiquita" CD Typhoon, M/V "Wild Blue" C-Dory 25

"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
W.A. Ward

s/v Faith

Quote from: Tim on September 29, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
I suspect the way the Ariel makes the tonnage rule is by measuring the depth in this manner



Yup.

  That is exactly what the form says you should do.
Satisfaction is wanting what you already have.

Tim

Quote from: s/v Faith on September 29, 2009, 10:27:28 AM
Quote from: Tim on September 29, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
I suspect the way the Ariel makes the tonnage rule is by measuring the depth in this manner



Yup.

  That is exactly what the form says you should do.

But it is close  ;)
"Mariah" Pearson Ariel #331, "Chiquita" CD Typhoon, M/V "Wild Blue" C-Dory 25

"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
W.A. Ward

newt

I have heard that the Contessa 26 has also been documented. Is that only under the old rules? BTW- I just got the Documentation papers back on my Valiant- Yeah! I'm legal!!!
When I'm sailing I'm free and the earth does not bind me...