Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 electric outboard

[atomvoyager]

I've been considering testing the Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 electric outboard on my 28' Triton. The cost is crazy I know and the adds say it's equivalent thrust to 6hp gas engine, though I don't see how it could be. Still, I'm fascinated by the idea of electric propulsion and much prefer an outboard version either in a well or on the transom.  In the reviews below copied off  the We$t marine site Scott Weber claims he reached 4.2 knots on his 26' sailboat. He didn't mention his diplacement. He was not satisfied with that, but I'm only looking for say 3.5 knots and a range of about 3 hours or 10 miles between charges. I'd recharge a 440 AMP bank with two 24v solar panels - slowly. If needed for range I could expand to 880 AMP hour bank.

I realize this is not a rig for motoring all day or against a strong current or moderate wind. The smaller and lighter the boat the better it would perform. Maybe I need a lighter Ariel or a Telstar for this motor...

Anyone have experience with these or ideas where to find out more information?
Thanks.
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Submitted by scott weber
Date Reviewed: 2007-08-06 15:58:47 
Strengths:  Looks nice. 
Weaknesses: I tried the Cruise long model and found that it could only push my 26' sailboat 4.2 knots in calm water. It is not quiet, has a loud whine, tiller lock is only a small screw that can easily be over powered by a wave, the electric control wire to the tiller is only a phone wire and jack, that I believe cannot stand up to the marine environment.
Review Summary: I hoped that this motor could replace an old diesel. I purchased two,12 volt, 215Ah AGM batteries in hopes of using them to power the Torqeedo. The batteries were there recommendation because the lithium-manganese they sell isn't available in this country yet. It costs around $3,200. It looks like the company didn't talk to anyone who spends time on the water due to the lack of understanding of wave power and corrosive salt water. The a phone jack feels like an after thought and the tiller lock needs to be a positive mechanism that can't be moved. I'm very disappointed and now have to go back to considering an inboard electric motor. ...
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Submitted by Pat Goff
Date Reviewed: 2007-03-06 11:04:54 
Strengths:  At last a proper electric kicker with strong mountings, good connectors and good torque. 
Weaknesses: time will tell. It looks like they did the homework about corrosion, which is about all that will take this type of motor out
Review Summary: This motor is used on the dinghy of and as backup for Transatlantic 21, the first all electric catamaran to travel across the Atlantic and it looks great here in the Caribbean!
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Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 electric has the power of a 6 horsepower outboard!
With the thrust force of a 6hp combustion engine, the Torqeedo Cruise is the emission-free alternative for sailing and motorboats with displacement of up to three tons. Equipped with the latest torque technology and optimized drive line, the Torqeedo Cruise is not only the most efficient, but also the most powerful 24V motor available. Features a streamline-shaped shaft, variable telescopic tiller, integrated voltmeter, continuously variable forward/reverse drive, interface for remote steering and remote throttle and a gas-spring tilting device.

Input Power in Watts: 2,000W, 24 Volts
Output Power: 900W
Static Thrust: 55kf. = 121lb.
Propeller Size: 12 x 10
Control: Rudder/Tiller/remote control
Gearing: F-R, continuously variable

[AdriftAtSea]

The biggest problem I see with the Torqeedo is the limited run time provided by the battery.  How many amps do your solar panels give you—what is the total wattage? 

[Fortis]

The only way I would have an electric outboard as the main auxlery motor for my boat is if I was also carrying a gas or diesel generator on board...Which is not a bad thing, but involves factoring up the budget and cary space requirements.

For getting in and out fo a pen without fuss, bother, noise or nonsense...the electric is a dream...for times when you need to have it aid you getting somewhere...well, you realy do need at least 6 hours of run time, assured. When those moments come, it is nice to fire up the genset, and run your motor and recharge the batteries at the same time.

So you are still burning fuel to move...but not as much or as often (fewer start ups).


I am all in favour of electrics, I use one on our dinghy, and have used ours to push our 26 around when I could not be bothered firing up the main deisel.
By the way, in orderto come up to an euivalent to about 6hp, you are looking at around 125pounds of thrust (though it all depends on the prop, at that point). For that sort of output you are much better off going with 24 or 36volts for the efficiency. 12v will just heat up the huge cables you will need with massive resistance.

Also worth noting is that most electric outboards are trolling motors and as such are not rated for running "wide open" for extended periods. So buy a motor that is sized to give you the equivalency of you 6hp at around 75% of its rated capacity and then you will not have overheating issues, excessive wear and inefficent electrical consumption.


But of course...now you are lookign at paying even more money.


Alex.

[Lynx]

Only 125 pounds of thrust. I needed to move my boat when the wind was blowing around 20 knots. I tried to pull up the anchor rode but my 265 pounds could hardly move it. I started the engin and idled up to the anchor.

I would need a bigger motor.

[Godot]

I think there are two things that need considering.  Sailing philosophy and suitability.

James, if I recall right, you sailed all or most of the way around the world without ANY auxiliary propulsion, so this would be a convenience instead of a necessity.   I, personally, HATE motors; and more importantly motors HATE me.  Electrics are convenient for short distance maneuvering which sounds like exactly what you want.  So the philosophy angle is covered.

As to the suitability, well, by the chart on http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/products/cruise/range.html, the motor will power a 20 square meter skerry cruiser (2600kg or 5732 lbs) maybe 35 nm at 3.5 knots using  two 200ah lead acid batteries wired in series for 24 volts.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but your Triton, especially loaded as it probably is for you, will displace significantly more.  The torqeedo page suggest it is only useful on boats up to 3 tons displacement.  It might work adequately for you even though your use is outside the designed target market.

The cost is high for buying this motor ($$$) for an application that it was not designed for.  You will need a separate 24v battery bank with ample capacity ($$$ and heavy).  Use the batteries once for a few hours and it will likely take a very long time to charge them up to use a second time using an EXTRA ($$$) 24v solar panel just for this bank.  And then there is the question of motor durability, which given some of the comments from the West Marine site suggests could be an issue.   So you basically need to spend a LOT of money for an entirely separate electrical system for an electric motor apparently unproven in the capacity you wish to use it.  That's a heck of a gamble.

Personally, I would take the money and buy a small 4 stroke kicker and pocket the difference.  Technology is apparently improving in this market, though.  Maybe in five or six years things will catch up to the needs of the long distance cruiser.

[Fortis]

Respectfully, not all of your massive mass was working on the problem of moving your boat along in the water. Nor was it doing it at a constant rate....The human heave factor loses a fair proportion of efficiency by being pulsed /staggered, so you end up rebuilding the same bit of momentum time after time.
If you imagine having a hose-reel type setup bolted to your foredeck, so that you could manually wind it at a constant rate by cranking the handle, your 265 pounds (not all of which would be at work, again) would make far better progress because of a constant effort.

The 125pounds of thrust equals 6hp thing is a rough but fairly accurate guide based on electric outboard sizings.

What moved my endeavour26 was a 32pound thrust outboard...but it was a calmish day....And I had a 20hp Yanmar Diesel sitting just below the companionway in case the "experiment" took a turn for the ooops.
(Since then the rigging has been re-done to the point where hoisting the main is a quick and straightforward job).

If you are single-handing, it s never going to be all that "simple" to idle up" to your rode if the conditions are as blowy as you described.
The tech solution would be to rig a remote control unit or a forward control unit to the throttle somewhere at the bows so you could stand up fornt and control the revs as needed when hauling in your anchor. This is a bit silly.

A friend of mine that sails single handed a lot does soemthing different instead. He loops a line around the anchor rode and runs it back to the cockpit around the outside of the hull. One end of the line is tied into a loop and made fast around a winch, the other is fed through the spinnaker block at the very back of the cockpit (You could do it the other way around if you felt like cranking the winch instead of hauling the line). He then motors forward while safely in the cockpit, when he approaches the right area he pulls in his loop line and it hauls the anchor rode around to the side of the boat where he is sitting in the cockpit and provides a saddle point.
He then slows the revs and hauls the rode like buggery until the boat is side on to the waves, but because a lot of rode has been pulled in, this is actually helping the anchor break free (needles to say a loop goes over the winch to hold it all from slipping back).

With the engine in idle he then retrieves the anchor into the cockpit, throws the motor back into play to bring the nose back around into the wind and pulls up the main right form the ckcpit, so he has not moved more then four feet in the entire excercise. Once the main is up, he is free to set the boat up and neatly coil up the rode and take the anchor forwards etc.
He can then double check the headsail, loosen the ties holding it to the lifelines and hoist.

A really neat/smart trick for an old guy sailing alone on a blustery day.


Alex.

[Lynx]

Fortis - your point is well made and I agree. I had to do the same thing to retrive the anchor rode and line but with the motor.

I should note that I do promote the bigger motor and not the smaller motor. 
I just cannot predict what the boat will do far enough, the big motor gets me out of trouble and helps set the anchor. In time I will not need it as often.

I hope that in time that the electric motors will be good enough to sail with.

[Fortis]

That's what I am waiting for too.

I am thinking that around 8-15 years for the tech in motors to mature to the point where I would be happy to fit it in my boat and then crusie with my family on board.

This is also about the time scale I am predicting for the next gen of really good SMALL gen-packs (about the size of a briefcase, very quiet, very safe).

Batteries are ALWAYS going to be the sore point...the better the batteries get, the more bloated the needs of the tools using them....And about the point that you need 6kg of platinum on board in your batteries....we are entering the realms of silly-money.


Alex.

[oded kishony]

Hi Alex,

One of my pet topics  :)

My current favorite candidate for future technology is the peroxide fuel cell.
Theoretically an aluminum catalyst hydrogen peroxide fuel cell has twenty times the  energy potential per pound than a lead acid battery. The byproduct of reaction being water. A hydrogen peroxide fueled civilization. with the fuel manufacturing, using solar energy, located in the deserts of the world.  :o

Something will have to happen when we run out of oil, belatedly realizing what an incredible resource (petroleum)  has been and how foolishly it was squandered.  :'(

Oded

[atomvoyager]

Yes, it would be an expensive experiment with uncertain results - that's why I haven't tried it yet.
I can get a slight discount at Port Supply, maybe write an article about the results to recover some of the expense.

The motor is recommended for 3 ton vessels and the Triton is about 4 tons so the boat speed will be less, but how much less? If you ask any sailor he will tell you 10 hp outboard is recommended for a Triton, but I've been happy with half that and less. I doubt the claimed 6hp equivalent because I used a 6hp 4-stroke on Atom and it pushed us about 5 knots. The reviewer above claimed his 26' sailboat attained only 4.2 knots. I'm guessing I'd get in the 3-3.5 knot range.

I could see it being used for the majority of in and out of harbor use and a 3.5 to 6 hp gas motor used for occasional long hauls. You might have the gas outboard primarily for the dinghy and as a backup to the electric outboard.

Most sailors will not accept this poor performance. But sailing across a few oceans with sail only gives you a different view as to acceptable minimum power and range.

There's much more to it than just connecting the motor. Here is one way it might be configured:

Main System Components:
1.   Two 24v solar panels in parallel.
2.   One 24v solar charge controller
3.   24v battery bank (four or eight 6v golf cart batteries for 440 to 880 AH) Correction - make that 220 AH to 440 AH for 24v.
4.   24v electric outboard motor (Torqeedo 2.0)
5.   24v to 12v converter (rated 40amp/1 min., 30 amp/3 hours, 20 amp continuous) for 12v appliances
6.    24v to 110 v 800 watt inverter for 110 v tools and appliances.

24 Volt Solar Panels:

http://www.global-merchants.com/home/24vpanel.htm

21.13"x17.75"x.1"  29 watts
Product # TGM 1000-24V Price: $265.50

Note: Some solar panels have jumpers to switch from 24 to 12 volts.

-----------------------------------

24v solar charge controller

Morningstar PS-15 self-sensing 12v and 24v
-----------------------------------

International Electrical supplies 1-888-295-7650
24v to 110v 900 watt inverter

http://international-electrical-supplies.com/power-inverter-1.html

-----------------------------------

24v to 12v converter (40amp/1 min., 30 amp/3 hours, 20 amp continuous) for appliances
http://www.powerstream.com/dc24.htm
Phone 801-764-9060

Orem, Utah
no load current drain is 100ma max.
PST-D24/12-400   $136
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24 v electric outboard
Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 or
Minn-kota Rip tide series 24v 80 lb thrust (for smaller boats)

[AdriftAtSea]

Four 6v Golf Cart batteries would give you 220 Amp-hours, not 440, since each battery is 220 Amp-hours at 6 volts...  Eight would give you 440 amp-hours.

[atomvoyager]

Thanks for the correction. I forgot we were calculating 24v instead of 12v as I have it now. Which reminds me, in case it wasn't obvious, the whole system as outlined above is more complex and expensive than most of us would care to deal with. Though it violates the kiss principle in many ways,I would think it has potential for some sailors. Solar-electric propulsion is just one more area where the smaller the boat the more manageable it becomes.

James B

[mrbill]

I'm looking at the Torqeedo 401 or 801, but my need is slightly different. I want a motor to propel my dinghy to shore when anchored or on a mooring, not move my boat (tho that is an interesting option under settled conditions with a failed diesel engine).

I will be embarking on a two week coastal cruise with no chance to recharge (tho in theory I could recharge from my main battery bank while running the engine). So I wonder if the motor has sufficient battery life to get me through the two weeks. My dinghy is only a 6' Achilles with at most 2 passengers, but in some harbors, distance to shore could be up to a mile.

While there are cheaper alternatives (Minnkota comes to mind) the way the Torqeedo breaks down into a small package is attractive for storage purposes, as space is always at a premium in a small boat (I hate hanging a motor off the railing...so tacky!). The dinghy is difficult to row, and nearly impossible with a second person on board...so the "dinghy" problem has been one I've been trying to figure out for a while. A motor makes it easier to get to shore, as well as carry a passenger. A bigger dinghy is not the answer due to space and "luggability" issues.

In addition to the battery life, does any one have any other experiences with these generally with regard to their quality.

MrBill

[AdriftAtSea]

MRBill-

The only issue I see is that the Torqueedo does have rather limited run time, especially if you're not able to re-charge the batteries in-between uses. Also, a small gasoline outboard, like the Tohatsu 3.5 HP four-stroke is going to weigh just a bit more and is going to cost considerably less.  Connie has one IIRC, and so do I. They're great little dinghy motors.  The Torqeedo 801 is 27 lbs.  The Tohatsu 3.5 four-stroke is 36 lbs or so.

[mrbill]

How about these:

http://www.smalloutboardengines.com/

Cheap, light weight...

[ChrisandVero]

I would recommend (from experience) a MinnKota trolling motor. My experience has been on a 2000# 20' boat on small to huge lakes. I have a 55# thrust 12V trolling motor and moved up to 2 27 AGMs last year. The 1/3 mile trip from buoy to dock (maybe 1 mile round trip with sightseeing) once/twice a week for a month did not drain the battery bank. on my old (very abused) 24 AGM, I could run the motor at max ~40 minutes, this setup should give me 2+ hours at max power. The nice part is that the motor starts to lose power as the battery dies, giving me some 'uh-oh' time to change plans (unlike a gas engine that, well, you know).

The prop is what I am thinking of changing this year or next. The standard prop pushes very well, but gives a very low speed (4kts top?). OTH, I go 3-4kts into a 20-25kt headwind and I doubt my sailboat would plane well regardless of engine/prop/etc.  :)

I picked up a very simple battery monitor at Cabela's this winter, and along with the GPS, I plan to run some laps on the local lake when it melts. Get some real-world data to compare to the specs I read on the web.
FWIW, MinnKota and the Cabela's guys tell me the motors can run continuously for hours- holding a boat against a current, etc. They also give a comparison of 10# thrust to 1HP for trolling-to-OB, but prop design plays a role, and that gets complicated fast.

...And yes, the silence of just pushing through the water, no smoke, no rumble, no smell! Almost as good as sailing!

[sharkbait]

Has anyone had experience with re-e-power.com.Ive been looking at them for a few years now.
I've  actually stepped down from a Cal 29 with A-4 to a '77 Ericson 27 8hp Honda in preparation for the change to electric.

[olivertwist]

sharkbait,

I just received my re-e-power electric motor today. I plan to install it next weekend. I can't say yet how it works but will keep you posted.

Olive

[sharkbait]

Oliver,
What kind of boat are you planning to install the unit on and which unit did you get?

[newt]

James,
In your search for electric propulsion have you come across a generator/motor combination- one that you would use as a outboard to get into a slip, and a generator while cruising? I ask because I am currently designing one- and plan on marketing it if there is a need.
I already do the same thing with bikes (veloutah.com)