smallest possible cruiser?

[Frank]

 Just curious what everyone thinks the smallest possible cruiser could be...assuming monohull,2 people max,no more than 3 days away from supplies(longer by choice)and no offshore passages of more than 36hrs. What would your "must have's" be in  such a small boat ?

[s/v Faith]

Hey Frank,

  I need to get caught up, but just a thought or two.

What would your "must have's" be in  such a small boat ?

1. Comfortable bunk(s).  Ability to have ari flow is a must, but also have to have some method to keep bugs out.  THe book 'smallest boat I could afford' is a great one, but I doubt that an 18' open cockpit boat would be very good at keeping the bugs out.... maybe with the right enclosure.  I bet it could be done in less then 20', especally in a cat rigged boat.

2. If one of the 2 people is to be female, a head that allows some privacy is important.

3. Stowage.  Especally easily accessable stowage that aids stability.

  I will type more as I think of it.

[AdriftAtSea]

I think that West Wight Potter 15 would probably be the smallest boat capable of doing this. 

A marine head, propane stove, compass, knotmeter, and DSC-capable VHF would be the absolute minimum needed on it.  A GPS would be nice, but a luxury, especially given the size of the battery bank that you can fit on a WWP15.  A small solar panel would also be a nice luxury, since it would help extend the battery bank life.

The berths would have to be very comfortable, since it is unlikely you'll have anywhere else down below to spend time. Privacy for the head would be nice, but I think would be rather difficult to provide on a WWP15 IIRC.

[skylark]

http://microcruising.com/

[CharlieJ]

We would see no need at all for a marine head- just a waste of space on a minimalist cruiser, plus complications to the boat which you do not need. A Porta potti would be better, and even a  bucket does the trick. One thing I made Laura promise me faithfully on her single hand cruise is that she WOULD NOT pee off the stern while underway!!! :D

A one burner kerosene stove would do the job also- we use one on Tehani anyway. Propane is most likely a better choice nowadays since real marine kerosene stoves are becoming hard to locate, and parts are tough to get. I just don't like it aboard. When our kero stuff wears out, I suppose we'll go that route though. But I have three spare burners tucked away ;)

A hand held GOS uses little power and would be almost a must these days- something like a Garmin 72 ( non mapping) and probably a hand held VHF to go with it. Both can be cabled to ships batteries- we drive our Gar 76 and 72 both off the ships batteries.

Solar panels are almost a requirement nowadays- so effective and getting smaller.

Totally agree on the comfortable bunks. That's a must- but over those bunks MUST be full seated head room in at  least one place. You don't HAVE to be able to stand up, but if you can't SIT up you'll get fed up in a hurry. Laura and I on our previous boat, found that with out the standing headroom, we could cruise quite well for about 2 weeks- then we started to be antsy about needing to stand. We'd get dressed out in the cockpit just so we could stand to pull pants up

You REALLY have to admire Dave and Mindy aboard Little Cruiser- they have taken it to new heights in minimalism and long term cruising. Wish I could have been at Cedar Key to meet them.

[Bill NH]

Importantly, long enough bunk(s).  In buggy areas companionway screens would also be high on my list.

Decent ground tackle.

For cooking I like a SeaSwing propane stove.  Dual advantages that it can be used underway and can also be stowed when not needed.

I'd go with either a porta-potti or bucket with a curtain if privacy is required, nothing structural.  Dedicating space exclusively to a head on a small boat is wasted space. 

Many of my choices for gear would depend on what you mean by "offshore"...  I'd outfit much differently to go up to Nova Scotia than coasting down to Cape Cod.  A handheld VHF is a good emergency precaution, and a handheld GPS would make life easier when you're out of sight of land on short hops...

I like the solar panel idea, but for shorter cruises you can also just charge the battery before you leave...  A friend of mine went to Bermuda on a single battery (although he did bring a second charged battery along).  We are talking minimalist afterall, and that should be low electrical demand...

If you really want inspiration on how simple you can go for minimalist cruising, check out the Outward Bound or NOLS pulling boats!

[rtbates]

I would think this might qualify http://www.towndock.net/shipping/2004_06_01_shiparchive.html

[Frank]

 I've spent a fair bit of time 'camping' on lil boats the last few years and each time out daydream about what could have been done different on the boat I'm on..what works and what doesn't. While the potter is a cute lil boat, it has no footwell inside or underberth storage as the bunk cushions are the floor. This gets old really fast moving gear from under the cockpit seats or trying to sit and read on a rainy day with no footwell.While 2 people 'could' cruise it....in my book it wouldn't be fun. The Montgomery 15 is a much better cruiser with hinged cockpit seat storage access,a footwell in the cabin and under berth storage.These are fun lil sailors.BUT..on a rainy day there is NOT sitting headroom.One person inside seems cramped after a while..2 would be a LONG day if stuck inside. The compac Suncat (16ft 8in)seems close to perfect.Can carry sufficient fuel in a concealed (but vented) cockpit locker,hinged access to storage under cockpit seats,a 'real' bridge deck..safe as well a great for charts under way and a cooking shelf while sitting inside.Inside is wide open,under berth storage,good sized footwell,SITTING HEADROOM and enough open space that 2 people could actually spend a rainy day and still be talking to each other that night.It has 2 opening ports and a forward hatch as well for great ventilation. I guess the real question is "how much comfort do you need". For me at this stage, it is minimum sitting headroom and easy access storage.After a week on a small boat you find that if you have to move 5 things to get 1, it starts to get frustrating.Seems that the workable starting length is 16ft+ to get both.

[Captain Smollett]

My trailerable boat, a 1982 Skipper's Mate, is pretty close.  With LOA of 17'9" and sailing qualities similar to a Monty 17, I think this boat is very good for 2-3 day trips, longer if you can get off the boat every 2 days or so.  I won't claim this is the smallest that makes a good short-jump cruiser, but it is certainly big enough to be relatively comfortable.  My wife has said in the past that her limit on this boat is about 1 week, though that was before we had two children.

On my boat:

Standing headroom: no way.  Sitting headroom, though, and with the V-berth, 4 berths with plenty of size.
Enclosed head: no way, though some owners have done this.  We have a Thetford 725 MSD (porta potty) on board, and it stows perfectly between the battery box and companionway step, up under the bridge deck.

Short Jumps Offshore? You betcha.  I'd take this boat to the 'Hama's in a heartbeat, with the right weather window.  Before getting the A-30, I also planned on trailering to the keys and taking her out to the Dry Tortugas.  Now, I don't know.  She's weathered a 32+ kts squall with three of us aboard (before my son was born; my daughter was just under 2 and on being below in those condition, my wife said they were "comfortable, no problems"), and have been out in 4-6 ft seas often enough so as to not be overly concerned with those conditions.  She sails GREAT in 20-25 kts with a reefed main or reefed main+working jib, depending on how hard you want to push (and how many people/movable ballast you have aboard).

For small-boat cruising like this, I think camping stoves are the ideal with cooking in the cockpit when weather allows.  Coleman makes a very good multi-fuel stove camp stove, and one of the fuels is kerosene.  I prefer kerosene to propane for a LOT of reasons, but cannot deny propane is the popular choice these days.

Personally, I have no desire to own a GPS for offshore jumps or otherwise.  If you cannot follow a compass couse (with a properly compensated compass), maybe going out of sight of land is not a good idea.  Again, a personal opinion.  I don't begrudge anyone for having/using GPS, however.  I just don't consider it a requirement like it seems everyone else does.  FWIW, Lin and Larry don't carry a GPS, or at least they didn't use to.

That said, self-steering is REALLY helpful, even on a small boat like this.  So, set up the self steering gear to the rhumb line course to the next waypoint and let it go.  In this 'mode,' I don't believe seeing my GPS position move along my track at a snail's pace to be either beneficial or psychologically fulfilling.  My preference on my boat is sheet-to-tiller gear over a vane gear, and I've found the sheet-to-tiller steering to work very well on my boat (I've never used a vane gear, simply because this is small a boat, with a transom hung rudder).

My concession to "modern" is, however, a handheld VHS.  I don't have this to 'call for help,' but for communicating bridge-bridge with the commercial traffic I encounter along the ICW and near shore on the southeast coast.

I admit my sea-days in coastal waters are small compared to most on this board, but nearly all of my sea-time is on a boat under 20 feet. 

[Fortis]

That would be a VHF...unless you wish to show the other vessels your home-movie videos.

[Captain Smollett]

That would be a VHF...unless you wish to show the other vessels your home-movie videos.

;D ;D ;D

[CapnK]

I prefer handheld DVD's, John. ;D

Frank - one thing I haven't seen mentioned, but which might just be a given - a cockpit long enough to lie down on the seats, fully extended.

You definitely need at least sitting headroom below, but on warm-not-wet nights, sleeping outside can be the ticket.

Maybe add on a bug tent for the cockpit on those nights. :)

[Frank]

I take back that  "16ft seems like a starting point" comment concerning good storage and sitting headroom. Selway-Fisher designs has a beautiful, traditional looking 14fter called 'Tideway' that would fit the requirements verywell ;-). Really a charmer.  http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm#TIDEWAY

[Joe Pyrat]

While almost any size craft can do the job for a week or a month, or even for a few months, even with short runs in blue water, and since this site is all about small boats and long distance sailing I'll presume you are going out for an extended time, say more than a year, and further presume we are planning on cruising somewhere that will take you out of protected waters and far enough from shore that we can not run back to the marina in the event you get caught in heavy weather.  Based on this criterion, IMHO the "smallest practical" cruiser would be something like the Dana 24, Triton or A30.  While the Dana 24 has the shortest LOA and LOD, I believe the living space on a Triton or A30 would be very close to the Dana 24 which has about 1/2 a foot more beam.  All of these boats are blue water capable and while I have no firsthand experience with the Dana 24, the Triton and A30 are capable of surviving heavy weather encounters and from what I've read, so does the Dana 24.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth...   ;)

[Frank]

You are kinda right Joe. I was dreaming of " coastal cruising with the odd offshore passage" say Florida-Bahamas. There is no right/wrong answer here. I'm thinking a well designed 16-17fter is about as small as you could go and have storage,sitting headroon etc.They've sailed a Monty 15 and a Potter 18 to Hawia....I wouldn't ;D  I guess what I was thinking is 'how small and still be in some comfort and have some storage'

[Lynx]

Another thing to consider is the body size and if single handing. On the MicroCruising sites most of the people are under 5 1/2 feet.

There is a canoe trail from Key West to Tampa Bay. I might have done it in my yonger days.

[CharlieJ]

Lets remember John Guzwell aboard Trekka. Trekka is 20 feet LOA and John circumnavigated in her.

[Joe Pyrat]

You are kinda right Joe. I was dreaming of " coastal cruising with the odd offshore passage" say Florida-Bahamas. There is no right/wrong answer here. I'm thinking a well designed 16-17fter is about as small as you could go and have storage,sitting headroon etc.They've sailed a Monty 15 and a Potter 18 to Hawia....I wouldn't ;D  I guess what I was thinking is 'how small and still be in some comfort and have some storage'

I understand Frank, when I was younger I thought it'd be a real adventure to go cruising in a small boat.  Well I guess I should say a smaller boat, since my Triton ain't exactly a large, boat.  If I were to revisit that dream, I'd probably opt for a Typhoon Weekender.  I like the lines and they should be as close to a true blue water boat as you can get in that size range.  Storage would be kind of an issue, but with a boom tent you could dedicate most of the cabin space to storage and sleep in the cockpit.  I'd definitely stick to the warmer latitudes though.   ;D

[Frank]

You have EXTREMELY fine tastes in sailboats Joe....very fine ;)

[Bubba the Pirate]

I was looking at Tritons a lot and settled on my Cape Dory 28 primarily because it had a diesel already.   The Tritons, in my price range, had not been upgraded.   I think they are quite similar boats.   

TrT