Twin Keels Good or Bad?

[CharlieJ]

We use 3 strand dacron for main sheet and halyards on Tehani also. I have a shackle on the jib halyard but the main is tied directly to the head of the sail with a buntline hitch.  I also use the buntline to tie on that shackle and for the dead end of the main sheet. No splices.

But on our jib sheets I don't tie knots anymore. I have double length sheets and use a toggle in the center. And obviously we use  braid for jib sheets. ;)

Toggle closed, in use-



Toggle open-


We went to this setup since we have a reefing jib- this allows us to just switch the sheets from the regular clew to the reefing clew in a heartbeat.

[maxiSwede]

maxiSwede-

I forgot to mention that I am one of those people that runs with all line for my running rigging; 3 strand New England ;

That definetely does NOT make me freak out  ;D, Literally everyone used it in the 'good old days' and quite a few cost-conscious cruisers (aren't we all?) still do as far as I know.

And I DO know that the big racing boats use spectra and the likes... they also use carbonfibre masts and sails and swinging keels. Not really within my budget for a simple, secure, comfortable crusing boat   ;)

Anyway, I understand that you are getting that new rigging on the cheap. Congrats and please report back to this forum after testing it out.

Fair winds//M

[maxiSwede]

CharlieJ -

Please forgive an ignorant pagan, but what is a buntline hitch? Nothing my english teacher back in school did mention  ;) I don't want to bother you, but IF you have a pic, it would be nice. I am quite certain that  I will recognize the knot upon eyesight.

Great idea with that jib sheet toggle! I am going to adopt it right away. I am a big fan of reefable jibs myself. Haven't yet had to reef it in 2500 miles this summer though. Went with jib and mizzen(main lashed to the boom) a couple of times and storm jib alone  one time... But even if it won't be reefed that often, it's a great option instead of changing during a sudden squall IMHO

[CharlieJ]

Sure- here's a wikipedia link to a description but it's basically a clove hitch tied toward the load point. It was used to secure the bunts to square sails and I guarantee if you tie it correctly it WILL NOT come loose. A bowline can shake out - I've had them do it. A Buntline hitch jams and if it has had a lot of load you'll need a spike to untie it. Perfect for halyardsl  I tie directly to the main sail because we've had shackles come open and drop the sail, requiring a trip up the mast- now I don't worry about that on the main. The halyard stays permanently bent on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buntline_hitch

[AdriftAtSea]

I use the buntline hitch for several lines on my boat. My one caveat about the knot is that it is very, very, very difficult to untie if it has been sitting under a load for any extended period of time.  I would not recommend using it to tie to the head or clew of a sail, since it tightens up significantly under load and would crush the sail fabric.  It is a very good knot for use with shackles, and due to the shape of the knot, tends not to get stuck in sheaves at all.

[CharlieJ]

well- since our main is jib headed and has a honkin'  big grommet up there I don't worry over much about crushing the fabric. ;D

But that is a good point- I made it in my post also- the hitch tightens HARD so it isn't gonna come undone. A bowline, particularly one tied as a loop, can and will shake undone. It is really NOT a safe knot for something that flogs- even on jib sheets there are better choices.

[AdriftAtSea]

My point is that if you're using it for the halyard, to attach it to the head of the sail, you'll probably want a shackle there instead of tying directly to the sail.  If you have to change the sail, you'd generally have to cut a buntline hitch off, since they usually can't be untied.

[CharlieJ]

Yup- have to agree- which is why we use it on the main and not the jib- the jib has a shackle. but we seldom change anything on the main so it works fine for that. I wouldn't use it straight to a jib myself.

[maxiSwede]

[quote author=CharlieJ link=topic=1261.msg11751#msg11751 date=1192297693

But that is a good point- I made it in my post also- the hitch tightens HARD so it isn't gonna come undone. A bowline, particularly one tied as a loop, can and will shake undone. It is really NOT a safe knot for something that flogs- even on jib sheets there are better choices.
[/quote]

That's right, happened to me a couple times, especially with a stiff sort of line

[mhrothery1]

Wondering where I might find instructions/information on how to make up a rope toggle as illustrated by charliej's photographs of his jib sheets? Thanks

[AdriftAtSea]

It's basically a short section of line with a knot in end whipped and probably stitched to the center of a long double-length sheet.   I don't beleive there's anything special about the way it is done, since there isn't really much of a load on the connection itself.  The important part is making sure the short section of line is stiff enough and long enough so that the eye won't be able to pull free of it or pull it through the clew of the sail.

[CharlieJ]

pretty much says it. Stitching the toggle to the doubled line I feel is an important part of it.

Make the loop JUST large enough so when it''s shoved through the grommet the knot will JUST go through, but don't make it TOO tight.

[Chattcatdaddy]

As I search around the classifieds a lot of twin keel boats are coming onto the market. Most seem to be British and designed for the extreme tides.

My questions: How does these sail compared to "normal" keeled boats? Can they self-right or stay turtled? Possible to do some bluewater cruising (the scoot)? Anyone have any personal experience with twin keels?

Personally my cruising plans are for the SE US and Bahamas and almost any well maintained vessel will work with good judgement and I`m open to almost any design as long as it is seaworthy.

[max_hyde]

These boats are known as Bilge Keeled in the UK and you are right they are used for coastal cruising partly due to the extreme tides we experience, but also due to the extensive estuarine and inshore water cruising, (gunkholing?) where running aground is a distinct possibility and sometimes encouraged ???

But the main reason is they allow you to keep them on a drying mooring, very important as pontoon moorings are expensive and hard to find (waiting lists of over 5 years in some south coast marinas).

I have sailed in a few and they have limits to windward performance, but for coastal cruising thier benefits far outweigh any problems they may have, as for the self righting, thats  more dependant on the displacement ratio than purely wether its bilge keeled.

As for bluewater capablities they are not generally classified as CAT A, but as with most things in life its more to do with the driver than the vehicle.

Hope this helps,  Max

[CharlieJ]

Personally I'd have not the slightest qualm about having a bilge keeler. Some of them have made amazing voyages.

Two things to  bear in m mind-

While they dry out well on a tide, they also can become REALLY stuck if accidentally run aground- you can't heel one to get it off like a centerline keel boat. But then a wing keeled boat has the same quirk.

The other point is that most British boats are under rigged for east coast sailing. The British Isles are known for strong gusty winds- east coast winds tend to be MUCH lighter as a rule. SO they simply don't have the sail area that boats designed for those waters have.

Conversely British boats do well here on the Texas coast- we usually have lots of wind.

Neither of these is a serious deal breaker, but just things you should be aware of.

[David_Old_Jersey]

As I search around the classifieds a lot of twin keel boats are coming onto the market. Most seem to be British and designed for the extreme tides.

I have gone "One better" than a Bilge / Twin Keeler..........mines got a Triple Keel  8).........for the very reason you state - tides. Not so much for accidental grounding, but for mooring. Not only cheaper than Marinas (which can often also be tidal, with a gate) - but (IMO) better!

One thing I will say about UK twin Keelers is that many were intended to be used coastal / family sailing, so whilst the twin keel configuration itself may not exclude her from more extended range cruising the rest of the design and / or build may do so!

Not to say of course that folk have not made long and extended voyages with twin keels under them. and with the right boat (and skipper!) I would be happy to do so. Just remembered I did once sail (only as Navigator) down to Northern Spain on a B/k Westerly Pentland (31')........I had a few concerns on that trip (Weather & Skipper  ::)), but none about either the bilge Keels or the boat design.

Not being in your part of the world I cannot advise what UK twin keelers would be suitable for the use you intend (I am guessing many, in the right circumstances wth the right Skpper - but I will NOT be saying that to you)...........buying out of position (Foreign / unfamiliar design) with unusual features for the local market (B/k's) may well lead to a good $$$ deal.

Although a broker, this website has good archives, with the index showing keel type!:-

http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives.htm

[Chattcatdaddy]

Thanks for all the information. I have seen about5 or so of these type boats in the classifieds and didn`t want to dismiss them because of my own ignorance. Also they seem to to selling for a pretty fair price.

Example.http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1975/Westerly-Centaur-26-Sloop-2093478/Pensacola/FL/United-States

Seems to be pretty heavy for a 26ftr.

[LooseMoose]

We've crossed paths with a large number of Westerly Centaurs over the years and they are wonderful boats. The layup and glass work on the Centaurs is massive in comparison to most modern boats and they have a very reasonable and livable interior. For less than 5K it is something of a no-brainer!

They won't sail to windward as high as some boats (though still better than almost all multihulls) but they will also let you sail into places that other boats can't get into... Like I said great boats

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[David_Old_Jersey]

Westerly Centaur?! Still in demand over this side of the world, and funnily enuf my father is starting to look for one  8)

They do sail better than they look! and, as said, a very liveable interior.

They were known at the time for being well built, and they sold a lot of them - the first true mass produced family sized cruiser in the UK, but built before folks worked out how to make mass produced boats really cheaply........... but of course, like any older boat, will by now have age related issues.

Just re-read your opening post, certainly would self right! Albeit of course not unsinkable.  Just like a single keeler would not turn turtlle due to solely wind action. ............me father has just turned 75 he wouldn't be after anything where inverting was on the agenda, even if he will be mostly Bay Sailing.

[TJim]

There is a Westerly (probably 31) on the Great Salt Lake and I doubt it got all the way there on a trailer!!! Probably had a fair sailor at one time.... TJ