Staysail

[Solace]

Hello all,

My last boat was a 24' Northern and came with 13 sails in 11 sailbags. Used to be owned by a racer who was also a sailmaker. In amongst the sail inventory was a sail clearly marked "Staysail" It seemed too large for that boat - so I removed the sail before selling the boat.

I have had my Columbia 8.3 for about 7 years now and finally came across this sail. It has what seems like a bolt rope for a furling track, with no end or beginning so getting it into a furling track would be difficult. I couldn't figure out how to rig this light wind sail - made of white spinnaker cloth.

I was chatting the other day with a dockmate. He told me when he raced, they used a staysail to go upwind (and downwind) in light air. They used a snapshackle to clip it to the toe rail, ran it really close to the deck and simple hauled it up on a spinnaker halyard. The wire in the luff was there for the strength, so the sail didn't rip. They simply puilled the halyard tight and trimmed the sail behind the headsail (like a cutter rig sort of)

I haven't seen this done before, so I'm asking you - has anyone seen the done before - or rigged it themselves.

Would love to add this sail to my regular inventory - especially for light air.

Grog to all in advance of your helpful advice.

John

[CharlieJ]

if the sail is nylon, or very light dacron, your dock mate has it right- set it free flying and use it.

You can treat it much like a drifter I would think

[oded kishony]

I don't know how helpful I'll be but FWIW...... it seems that perhaps it might be useful for going wing-a wing down wind. Twin head sails can be used to improve directional stability (steering) in a follwing sea.

Oded Kishony

[Bill NH]

If you tack it down to the toerail, make sure you only use it in light airs and don't hyper-tension the halyard with a winch.  If it's a sail you decide to fly regularly you might want to fit a well-backed padeye on the foredeck instead... 

[Fortis]

Bill just said exactly what I would have, but with fewer exclamation marks.

Putting serious upwards stress on your toerails, especially at the bow is a bad idea, as the boat suddenly "Smiling" as you pound into waves means you have a lot to deal with all at once.

:P

Alex.

[CharlieJ]

unless of course the toe rail is BUILT for that use  ;)

Other wise I'd use a bow cleat. That BETTER be able to take the load of a light air sail or you need to fix it ;D

[maxiSwede]

unless of course the toe rail is BUILT for that use  ;)

Other wise I'd use a bow cleat. That BETTER be able to take the load of a light air sail or you need to fix it ;D

Yeah, you bet!  ;D ;D ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

Most factory installed cleats are really all that well re-inforced IMHO, so unless you've upgraded the bow cleats on your boat, even that might be a bit dicey...

[Fortis]

unless of course the toe rail is BUILT for that use  ;)

Unless the boat was made of steel, I would be hard pressed to imagine a way for a toe rail to be so designed and reinforced. Not without bolted in straps that would essentially be chainplates holding down the toe-rails....

alex.

[CharlieJ]

Ah com'on Alex- many boats are out there with slotted aluminum toerails and use them for jib sheet attachments.. They are bolted through the deck flange or some such about every 3 inches or so.

Besides, we are talking about a light air sail here, made of nylon- in winds under about 10-12 mph, there's not THAT much pressure on the tack. We're also talking about a boat in the 26 foot range.

Now if we were discussing a storm jib, being used to pound to weather, I'd most certainly agree. But in this case, if the toe rail is well installed, I'd say go for it.

The caveat being "well installed" of course.

[Fortis]

yeah, okay. I have to admit that I am still not a huge fan, but int he scenario you point out...
I have not seen people attaching the tack to their toe-rails here ever. Stuff like that gets stuck on the centreline so someone throws a loop of spectra around the bow-cleat or sampson post.

I am used to seeing toe rails used for lots of lateral load stuff, blocks and tweakers and extra downhauls and even preventers (not a huge fan of that one either). Thing is a lateral load on a toerail can be much much higher then a vertical pull, which is the direction *most* toerails are weakest. And it is not so much about the attachment between the hull-deck join (though I have seen and repaired a couple of those)...it is actually not that hard to work harden the aluminium and then snap off the little top-bridge that youa re pulling against.


Just saying, the post I made is my personal prefferences, not any kind of higher gospel. I tend to treat both toerails and staunchions like you should not rely on them, and that way the only time you do is in an emergency where things are already beyond the embarrassment if the fitting gives stage.

Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

My theory on stanchions and attached lifelines is that they're there to remind you that you're about to fall off the boat, but not actually there to do much to stop you from doing so.  Most lifelines are too low (24" or so) to really help keep you on the boat... and most stanchions, at least the factory installed ones, aren't backed well enough for a big person to fall against the lifelines and not end up overboard.

Toe rails are a bit better, if they're through-bolted every 4-6" like they should be... unfortunately not all of them are, and some are just held down by screws... those tend to come up in a hurry... and leave a huge mess behind when they do.

You could always attach a pennant to the forestay chain plate and use that.  It should be attached securely enough that even if the wind picks up, the staysail will blow out before it gives.

[CharlieJ]

Adrift- as I said in my first post on this :D

Other wise I'd use a bow cleat. That BETTER be able to take the load of a light air sail or you need to fix it ;D

On my boat you could pick the bow up with the cleats, cause I don't install stuff like that without substantial reinforcement- and I expect the same from other serious cruisers- factory installation- phaaah- most are mickey mouse. Cleats on most boats are too small anyway by at least two sizes, and the backing is a joke. Which leads to my quote.

Of course, this is all just conjecture since we none of us know whether he even HAS a toe rail on the boat that he could clip to.

Most definitely agree on the lifeline stanchions being too low. But you'd never get away with having proper height life lines on a 25 foot boat- people would go "Yuuuck" at the looks :D So most are really trip lines, good for hanging fenders, and drying clothes. Although on Tehani the life lines are also too low, all stanchions are backed with a stainless plate slightly larger than the base, and through bolted.  I realize not all boats are like that- they should be upgraded as soon as possible once you get the boat.

But a jack line and tether begins to look more and more appealing doesn't it?

[AdriftAtSea]

Charlie-

I know what you mean... the guys at the factory laughed at me when I went from a single 6" cleat to two 10" cleats for my bow cleats, and from 4" chocks to 6" chocks... :)

I don't normally install the lifelines I have for the boat, since they're normally deployed on the amas, and I'd have to remove them each time I folded the amas up for putting her in the slip.   They're rather superfluous on the Telstar 28, as the amas have a foot high bulwark on the outer edge of each ama, so why clutter up the lines of the boat.  :)

I do have jacklines run along the outside edge of the main hull... no way to really fall off if you're clipped in...between the bulwark and the tether, you'll stay on pretty well, no matter how nasty it is.

[CharlieJ]

Yeah- that IS one great thing about multis. On my tri going forward on the cabin top you were 10 feet or more from the deck edge. Plus the bow nets were there as you went around the front of the cabin. I did have live lines around the outer decks, but they were mostly to satisfy my then wife.

[Bill NH]

Yeah Charlie, makes me think of my old Searunner trimaran as well...  center cockpit with a 22' beam was great for sailing with young kids!

[CharlieJ]

You know, a friend of mine visited with Jim Brown just a couple of weeks ago. She lives just a short distance away from where he does- both have North, Va as post office addresses.

I've always thought the 31 would make a great cruising boat. Jim still sails his 31'r Scrimshaw after all these years. That boat must be 40  years old now.

I've met Jim and one of his sons over the years. Nice folks.

[Solace]

Thanks for all your comments.
I have to concur with Charlie - this is clearly a light air sail - take spinnaker cloth and go lighter.
The toe rails on my Columbia are fairly substantial. I have no fear of this sail placing enough stress on the toe rail to do any damage
Running this sail in heavier winds will shred the sail.

Solace is over 9500 lbs - so says the marina operator - for a 27 ft sailboat that is porky. I have no problems handling heavy air, but getting her moving in light winds has been a real challenge. When I re-discovered this sail in my inventory, I began wondering how best to rig it. I'm looking forward to flying it, but expect only to do it in light winds.

Cheers!

John

[psyche]

Solace which Columbia do you have? I had a Columbia 28 and now have a Columbia 8.7 which I have gutted and got James baldwin and his wife to  rebuild and refit for cruising. Dan

[psyche]

Solace,
Oops, I read that you have  a sister boat, Columbia 8.3. Go to James Baldwin's website and you will see how we changed mine to a cutter rig with an inner forestay. Go to www.atomvoyages.com and click on 8.7. You will see how we added a deck attachment that was reinforced by attaching it to the foreward bulkhead. We put a block on the mast and running backstays to support the mast. Without the running backstays the stress of a staysail/storm sail could snap the mast.  I have used the sail on th einner forestay for an extra push when needed. Dan