Just Wondering: Outboard motor in a well?

[petelesperance]

hi there, im new here, sailing the med currently but, plan on purchaseing a bristol 24 upon my return to nova scotia, for an extended cruise. I've an idea, which is, I would like to get rid of the outboard well, make do with oars or perhaps a sculling oar for simplicitys sake, im not sure which wuld be more practical. but my question is, is it feasible to fill the outboard well with a good quality foam,very tight, to decrease weight and add positive flotation to the stern and fibreglass over it in a way where it is strong and is sortof sheer with the hull and deck. lose the hatch, s if it was never there both topside and on the hull?
thanks

pete

[AdriftAtSea]

I don't know how feasible that is, given the tides and tidal currents in the Nova Scotia area, you might want to have the option of an outboard motor, rather than just a sculling oar. 

Instead of filling the space with foam, why not glass over the bottom and make the space a storage locker.  Stowage is always a bit rare on smaller boats, and if you make the lid for it water-tight, it would work as both a storage locker and still provide some buoyancy to the stern. 

[Gerald A. Gotts]

Even though I'm a novice sailor I agree with ADRIFT.  I have a Bristol 24 and I want all the storage I can get.  I would like to ask another related question, however.  Assuming I seal up the opening in the hull making a great storage locker could I then place  a small outboard (5hp) on a bracket  on the transom  with a remote starter ?  How critical is the balancing of weight on a sailboat.? I figure  heavier items  should probably go amidships.  Where do I get info. on this?

   Sincerely,   " more questions than answers " 

[s/v Faith]

Pete & Gerald,

  Welcome aboard!  Glad to have you both here. 

The outboard in a well is IMHO one of the best methods of propulsion for a small sail boat, and I think it would be unwise to modify the boat to remove it. 

  One alternative you might consider, would be a fitted plug.  I have one for my Ariel that can effectively fill the hole in a method that allows it's removal later.

  Replacing an outboard in a well with one mounted on a bracket creates several problems and can be dangerous.

  The outboard well is much more easily accessed while operating the the boat.  The motor can be pivoted, even slightly to ease backing.  The bigger issue is the ability to steer with the tiller while controlling the throttle without having to reach across the transom.  Many outboard well equip boats have lazy-rat hatches that make the distance a big problem, especially while trying to dock single handed.  I am sure Capt. Smollet will have more to offer on this, as his Alberg 30 has this arrangement.  I personally have docked that boat, and it can be a handfull.

  Other problems with the outboard on the transom arrangement can be that the slight difference in the moment, or the distance from the center of balance, is prone to cause the stern to drag.... especially on many of the boats of the era with longer overhangs.

  The prop is also more likely to cavitiate, since it is no longer under the boat but behind it.

  Another problem with the transom mount is that it sticks out and makes the motor the first thing to hit if you back into a dock as well as IMHO spoiling the looks of the boat.....   :P

  Ov course you could replace the outboard with an inboard.. but then you increase the cost, space requirements, and difficulty of maintenace... not to mention the heat below.

  I am not saying any of this to disparage boats with outboards on the transom.  It can be an acceptable arrangement if your hull and cockpit are designed for it. 

 

 

[s/v Faith]

FWIW,

  Here is a picture of what a plug looks like (from the Ariel site, yours would of course be slightly different but this should give you the idea)





 

Also,  James Baldwin has a link on his web page showing the refit he did on a 28' Taipan where he added a well.  He discusses the reasons why the modification was made and makes many of the same statements about the problems with transom mounted outboards.

[Gerald A. Gotts]

Ahoy, s/v Faith, I thank you for the info. on transom mounted outboards. 

I had a hunch it wouldn't be a good idea but felt like bouncing it off someone.  I am amazed sometimes with the speed that I get answers on this forum.  I am very new at this but every time I turn around I learn something new.  Of course when you know next to nothing  everything is new!

     Who knows someday I might even learn to sail my boat.  Hey, by the way now that I mention sailing I ran across some sails for sale at a flea market.  I think one is a genoa and the other a Jib.  They are from a Columbia 24 [ or so it says on the bag ].  One bag says "300" on it .  It also says 150%  5 oz.

     Do you think these will fit a Bristol 24 ?  I am told I could take them home to measure them.  What do I need to measure?  Length of the boom, etc ?  They are made by North Sails.....Thanks, Jerry

The Bristol came with no sails...It was a  " FREE " boat!  I know ,nothing is FREE !!

[s/v Faith]

Bacon & Associates has a great website.  They sell used sails and equipment in Annapolis MD, and their store is worth a visit if you are ever in the area.

  Their Sail data base suggests a main with;

Main;
Luff range from 24.3 to 26.30 - Foot range from 10.5 to 11.50

  They list the following measurements for your jib;

Jib;
Luff range from 28.3 to 30.30 - Foot range from 9.20 to 15.64
100% J=9.20 110% J=10.12 120% J=11.04 130% J=11.96
140% J=12.88 150% J=13.8 160% J=14.72 170% J=15.64

[s/v Faith]

They list 3 different 24' Columbia's, but the measurements are pretty close for all 3

Main
Luff range from 25 to 27.00 - Foot range from 10.33 to 11.33

Jib

Luff range from 28.83 to 30.83 - Foot range from 9.08 to 15.436
100% J=9.08 110% J=9.988 120% J=10.896 130% J=11.804
140% J=12.712 150% J=13.62 160% J=14.528 170% J=15.436

  Looks to me like there is about a 90% chance they will fit your boat.... but I would measure them before I paid any money since your rig (or that of the Columbia) might not be stock....

  Good luck!

[Captain Smollett]

Gerald and Pete,

Craig (s/v Failth) hit the nail on the head on all counts.  As the owner of the aforementioned boat with transom hung outboard, I can attest to each and every one of the disadvantages he mentioned.  That was not book theory he was talking about.

Couple of points, though: 

I've made my peace with it (for now, anyway).  I can sit on the rear deck and work the ob controls and still reach the tiller, with the tiller raised vertically.  It ain't purty, but it gets the job done.  Often, to do this, I'm actually sitting on the ob gas tank.

I've thought about a tiller extension, perhaps with a suitable articulation to allow using from behind the tiller head.

Of all the disadvantages, there are two that REALLY grate on me more than any others:

First is the prop ventilation.  It's bad on the engine, and if I'm even USING the engine, I need it to run.  Blowing it up at that time is not good.  This is a SERIOUS concern.

The other one is the aesthetics....it just ruins the lines of the boat.

As an aside to that, it also clogs up the transom area of the boat somewhat.  Gotta be careful what you plan to stick on the rail on that side because you cannot limit access to the engine.  Further, I might be looking to install a Cape Horn wind vane someday, designed for THIS BOAT, but probably will have issues with that ob in the way.

It is relatively easy to the the ob off the boat, though.  So there's that.  Also, you may (or may not) have more room to swing the ob through wider angles with it on the transom, depending on your well configuration.

It's funny - you were thinking about going from a well to a transom mount, and I am actually thinking about (someday) cutting a well in my Alberg to get RID of that transom mount.

[Gerald A. Gotts]

Thank you Captain Smollett,

     I have to admit it is rather comfortable to motor my  boat  around the bay.  I have to believe that my motor being in a well is less visible to thieves as well.  Out of sight out of mind !
     Now my only concern is the previous owner hacked an opening in the front of the lazarette to allow the  tiller handle on the motor to come forward.  It is an awful looking thing.  There is a rectangular plastic frame that appears to go in the opening.  This would frame only part of the opening, however.  I've got to re-do the fiberglass...any suggestions ???

Thanks,  Jerry

[CharlieJ]

Ours is framed in varnished wood-The opening allows us to reach the starter rope, the choke and the kill button. The valve  you see under the opening is a tank selector valve. I can change tanks by simply turning the valve

Since it takes a wrench and 2 people about 30 minutes to remove our engine, I don't worry too awful much about thieves.

[Gerald A. Gotts]

Charlie, Thank you.  Questions:  You can leave the tiller down ?  You would have to take the tiller off to get the motor out, right?  Actually, I don't plan to take the motor out often anyway.

The valve is a cool idea.  Is that a Clinometer below it ?  I've seen them @ WB but didn't know what they were for.

What about water coming in through the opening ?  Would some type of rubber cover prevent this ?

I really like the wood trim !!!

[CharlieJ]

Yes- the tiller stays down- has to- can't lift enough to go anywhere. Engine also can't  turn enough to steer using the engine- you must steer with the rudder. Yes- you have to unbolt the tiller, then feed it out as the engine is lifted- takes a second person. Same thing going back in- takes a second person to feed it back through. We leave it in place always- the lower unit is anti fouled.

Engine by the way is an 8 hp Yamaha 4 stroke.

We have two 3 gallon tanks for the engine- gives us roughly 15- 16 hours run time. The valve makes it really simple to switch tanks so if you've been running on one for a while and get into someplace tight, like a lock or bridge passing, you can just flip the valve to the full tank and then not worry about running out at a BAD time.

We've NEVER had water even close to coming in that opening even in 6 foot stuff down wind offshore- it's way too far above the waterline. There's also a drain in front of the engine that drains the whole well. Water DOES get into the well, but not a lot. Absolutely NO need for a cover. Besides, if we ever got pooped, that then becomes a BIG cockpit drain.

Yes, that's a clinometer- when it hits 35 degrees, the rail is in the water.  ;D Tehani normally sails to windward in any decent wind at 20 to 25 degrees heel.

[s/v Faith]

.....I think, even looked at link about retro fitting a well.  Just not clear about stuff like, do you pull it up when under sail, how do you flush the engine of salt water, if it stays in the the water do you treat it like a prop on an inboard.   

I have an outboard in a well onboard Faith.  As I said before, I think it is a nearly perfect arrangement for a small cruising boat.

  As I also said earlier, I am not a fan of the transom hung outboards.  They are tough (to very tough) to control, can be dangerous (reaching down over the transom to adjust), they add weight where many boats do not tolerate it well, and they tend to come out of the water when it gets rough.

  Most of these are either non-issues or less of an issue with an outboard in a well.

I have tried several motors (some for a long while, others just for a few minutes).  I have run the little 2hp Johnson/Evenrude (some call the canoe motor), a seagull, a 3hp Johnson, a 3 hp Yamaha, a 6hp Yamaha, and an 8 hp Suzuki (all 2 stroke) and a 4 stroke Tohatsu 6hp. 

  I have also sailed an Ariel with a 9.9hp Mercury with remote throttle / shift.  It was both too much HP for the boat (bad stern squat at anything over 1/2 throttle) and the remote throttle was awkward and not a good arrangement (IMHO).

  I just yesterday bought an 8hp 4 stroke Honda, with the intent of modifying my well.  I am ONLY going to do it if I can maintain the ability to steer with the outboard.

  Even as a full keel boat, Faith backs well.  I get much more control then those with inboard motors, or those who are unable (or unwilling) to steer with their motors.

  I have the same opening in front of the well that CJ has in the picture above.  I do not run my tiller out of it.  I keep it folded so the hatch closes, but it works just fine like that.

  I find several advantages to this set up. 

1.) Easy to back, I can steer with both the tiller and the outboard.  It is like having a stern thruster, the ability to vector the thrust is VERY handy.  I agree with what CJ said above about planning your dockings, however I will say that the ability to get into a slip with a cross wind, or being able to turn like I had a fin keel comes in handy.  It is also nice when the wind is blowing the bow off, and you can angle the motor and 'kick' the stern around.  Can I dock the boat without moving the outboard?  Sure... but why would I?

2.)  The heayest of the outboards I have used is the 66# Yamaha.  It is still manageable WRT your second point above.  I can pull the motor to reduce drag when sailing.  I do not need tools, and it only takes a moment.  As a matter of fact, since I got the Tohatsu I have removed the motor and laid it in the well every time I sail.  It weighs 55#'s and is not too tough to pull it out or mount.

3.)  Being able to steer the outboard in both directions gives me a pretty good emergency steering.  I have never removed the rudder.. (duh.  ::) ) to check it, but I have sailed and run the motor while steering without touching the tiller.  Would not plan to rely on it, but a steering casualty when running an inlet it might save the boat.

4.) Being that the well opens under the overhang, the prop tends to stay in the water.  The 2hp motor would ventilate / cavitate but it is barely long enough to to have the cavitation plate in the water... the point is that even in short square seas, the prop does not tend to come out of the water.  Other (stern hung)outboard equipped boats have a problem with this.

 

[Amgine]

I've only owned one boat with an outboard in a well, so I clearly don't have the experience of some of the others here though I have sailed a half dozen or so other boats which have outboards in one configuration or another.

Every one of the boats with a well, and particularly so with my own boat (a Skipper 21), had performance issues under sail.

This isn't to say the boats with outboards on transoms didn't have problems too. But with most of those the motor could be lifted or tilted out of the water. The weight on the transom was still a problem with one of those boats - Bristol 21 or 23, a Caravelle I think it was called - and I'm sure other boats with fine waterlines aft would have issues.

For most of them, the drag from the motor in the well was a noticeable problem. Two could tilt the motor part-way up in the well, and this had a huge impact. On one we'd lift the motor out and stow it under the cabin table, but the open well still was a big drag. We eventually used a slab of styrofoam carved to shape, not a perfect fit but difference was a good 1/4 to 1/2 knot in light to medium.

On my own boat the well was at the waterline, and would scoop the water in when heeled. It was one of the boats I could tilt the motor in, and the anti-ventilation plate would then almost block the aft end of the well and greatly reduce the drag. Removing the motor and putting it in the cockpit locker, and dropping a flat/heavy piece of sheet metal into the well was my best solution, but almost always was a stupid firedrill in the cockpit trying to get that flat piece back out and the engine back in place.

Outboards, and wells/transom mounts, are why I have opted for inboards since. The compromises for the outboard motor are too much for me.

[s/v Faith]

Amgine,

  What was the make / HP of the outboard you were using?  It sounds like it was a pain to remove.

Faith does not do this, but Ariel Spirit, with the 9.9 would 'squat' and scoop water when you used more then 1/2 throttle.  I don't think this is a problem with the well, but with the choice of too big a motor (More too much HP then weight).

[Marc]

Speaking of motors, I have been contemplating on building an engine well in the lazerette of my boat.  '73 Venture 224.  I have talked to a salesman and a mechanich who both claim that it can be done and also connected to the tiller system on my craft.  I explained that i don't see how but both of them  said it could be done.  What does everyone out there think?  Marc

[Amgine]

Well, I started with a 9.9 (I've forgotten the breed), which about halfway up the Mississippi developed an ECM affliction. After hiking about 3 miles up river bank riprap dragging the boat the second time the motor decided to die while getting through a swing bridge, I decided to buy the biggest 4-stroke I could afford: a Honda 4hp.

Which worked amazingly well, was light enough for me to easily sling into the cockpit locker. It was getting down into the well to pull out the sheet metal that was the fiasco, except when it was windy on Lake Pepin and the waves had built up. Then it was the motor.

The drag from the well was merely annoying, and screwed up my attempts to balance the rig, until I saw how responsive and *fast* the boat was without the well. Suddenly I was able to reef at 10 kts of wind, and go faster. Mind you, this was a boat that drew 18" and was deepest at the rudder, but without the well that rudder was responsive and I could turn within her length. She still was a dog upwind, tacking through 110 or so due to leeway, but she came about smartly, accelerated in an instant, and scooted along at better than 1.36 * sqroot(LWL). Then I came to really loathe that well, and it was worth my time to fiddle around with the sheet metal and stowing the motor.

Being a double ender with an outboard rudder there was no possible way to move the motor out of the well. But sometimes I dream about ways I could have gotten along without it - maybe a motor mount attached to the rudder or something. I gave the boat away when I left the states, sold the motor. I wonder what she's up to these days.

[CharlieJ]

I installed an engine well in the laz of a Neptune 24 for a customer and he has been delighted with it ever since.

Of course, every one here knows we love the well in Tehani.

Seems to me the big difference between us and Amgine is that Tehani is a full keel boat with an attached rudder, so we really have lots in the water anyway. We may be losing a bit of performance, but not enough that we notice it. Of course we've very rarely sailed the boat in less that 10-12 so sailing in light air may be really different- I guess we'll find out, and probably go to using the genoa rather than the working jib. Here on the Texas coast, we've used our genoa exactly twice in 4 years- and both times on a dead downwind sail.

[kendall]

Amgine,

  What was the make / HP of the outboard you were using?  It sounds like it was a pain to remove.

Faith does not do this, but Ariel Spirit, with the 9.9 would 'squat' and scoop water when you used more then 1/2 throttle.  I don't think this is a problem with the well, but with the choice of too big a motor (More too much HP then weight).

With the Ariel is there enough room to trim the motor to offset the scooping effect? (angle the prop blast down I mean)

Have a buddy with a 9.9  I could get cheap, Haven't managed to get any measurement done, but it 'looks' like it would fit, don't want to give myself a headache though.

Ken.