Engineless cruising

[WF]

I was having conversation with someone today about my long term aspirations of going engineless.  Please note that this is LONG TERM, I certainly don't feel my seamanship is enough for it now without safety suffering severely.  However, one day I'd very much like to completely end my dependence on oil/diesel.

Forgive me if this has been covered, if so I guess I'll just take the lashes, couldn't be worse than my strict Catholic boarding school days.

My question is:  Who here sails without an engine?  What are your thoughts on this?  Just how accomplished do those who are engineless think one should be before taking this leap?  Anyone have plans to eventually do so? 

Here is some good information, although a bit cocky & purist, on this subject.  http://www.oarclub.org/ 

[CharlieJ]

Many of us here are familiar with Jay and the Oar Club. Good site, although he's moved on somewhat. we have several of his books and I reread parts of them often. I enjoy the thoughts and ideas. I do think he's a little "pie in the sky" a sometimes.

We would love to go mostly engineless. However, where our boat is berthed makes it virtually impossible to do that AND use the boat. Every time we go out, we are faced with a 4 mile run up a quite narrow channel. normally dead to windward. So we use our engine to get through that section, then as soon as we open out into sailing room, secure the thing.

Additionally, between bay systems here there are fairly narrow land cuts. We share those cuts with a significant amount ( far greater amount than the east coast ICW) of commercial traffic- tow boats pushing up to 6 barges. You DO NOT want to lose maneuverability when in the vicinity of one of those, I guarantee you. So we idle the engine if barges are present, just in case. We're usually under sail but the engine is on as a safety valve.

We practice hard to use the sails rather than the engine whenever possible. That's a large part of the pleasure in being on a sailboat. But some times it just isn't a prudent thing to do. Even the Pardeys get towed into and out of harbors quite often it seems. And I sure as the devil wouldn't want to sit outside a harbor for 3 or 4 days, waiting on a wind, when a small outboard would get me those last 4 or 5 miles.

[WF]

CharlieJ-
Good points.  I actually met Jay at his new place in Hawaii a few months ago, his first visitors!  Great guy with a very interesting view on things. 
Seems that the Achilles heel of engineless is currents and traffic for the most part.  I still would like to get there though.  I'm beginning to really think about and start to practice just how I would approach my current situations without an engine.  Definitely a whole different ball of wax.

[Delezynski]

Going engineless ...

It seems like a good idea, but I think it may have a lot of drawbacks.

How about a happy medium? I know our boat style originally came with a 9 HP diesel. Now, they all have something between 15 to 20. It's said that that is what is required to punch through the ad stuff.

So, would it be possible to go back to a small, say 9 HP or less model and with a generator on it and use an electric drive to push the boat? I know it would not e as efficient, but I also know that most of the time I am running our 20 HP Yanmar I do not need all 20 horses pulling. And at times, it running to generate electricity to charge my batteries. I try NOT to run it for only charging, but after a few days with not much sun, it has to be done as we don't have the room for another generator aboard.

So, instead of engineless, how about a minimalist engine???

Just an idea...

Greg

[CharlieJ]

One of my favorite books is Hiscocks "Wandering Under Sail' The book chronicles his very early cruising* and most of that was done engineless. All over Brittany, the French coast, and all up and down the English Channel. He used oars often to move the boat.

But there are tings he mentions casually, that just don't exist anymore. He speaks of "warping Buoys" in harbors and harbor pilot boats- small vessels that came out and guided ( or towed) visiting yachts  into port. Those things are gone. So getting in and out of some of the ports he sailed in and out of pre WW II, would be inconceivable today, sad to say.

I think it's an admirable idea, and maybe should be done with the engine pulled out and tucked away somewhere. But I really don't think it's practical for most of us, in our "today" ports, all around the US. Certainly in some areas it's entirely feasible though. Sailing off a mooring in the NE is one that comes to mind. But not universally. Better not try it to seriously over where Kurt lives. ;D


* That's the book in which he states-

"It is a fact that I bought my first sailboat on a Wednesday, sailed it away on  Thursday and found it wrecked on Friday"

So even Eric Hiscock had a learning curve ;D ;D

[CharlieJ]

Greg- Speaking again of Hiscock - Eric and Susan did 2 circumnavigations aboard Wanderer III plus several Atlantic crossings and cruising tours of the US east coast.

Wanderer III had an 8 HP gas engine.

So sure. I see the "need more power" syndrome all over. I see it on TSBB where people want 15 and 20 HP outboards on trailerable sailboats "For safety" I think it's caused by the folks Jon Eisberg speaks of - the "motoring Kroozers". That mentality anyway and of course many of those boats NEED the bigger engine to push all that "poop" through the air.. And I personally think something gets lost there. They are, after all supposed to be "Auxiliary" sailboats.

Now, we do have an 8 HP outboard on Tehani. For two reasons- nothing smaller is a 2 cylinder, only single cylinders and they vibrate. And when we bought it we were broken down in mid Louisiana, with nothing but 300 miles of ICW in front of us, and it was the ONLY suitable engine available in all of southern Louisiana in a 4 stroke!! So we got it and have been delighted with it. We seldom throttle it up past a high idle and get hull speed there, at which point it SIPS fuel.

But we'd MUCH rather hang the rags ;D

[WF]

Some really good points, no doubt not having an engine is inconvenient , even impractical. 
I know engineless cruisers are around, seen a few here in Seattle, even saw one once sailing the Canal from Lake Union out to the sound, at least a 30ft, tack, tack, tack, took him about 30 minutes to get about 200 yards, but there he was doing it and alone even avoiding several M/Vs coming and going, completely in control if at a snail's pace.
Certainly something to aspire to be able to do.

[Tim]

After taking the Ariel out today again (where I also have a long motor out to where there is wind) I feel fairly confident that the 5hp Honda is going to be plenty, especially if I change the prop out for a displacement prop.

Tim

[newt]

There may be a different way :o
On my bike which I commute to work I have a electic motor- it generates going down hill, and then using some of the energy to get me up the next hill. Granted it isn't very efficient.  What if you had 4 big trogan batteries in your boat ( in the bilge area maybe?) that hooked to a electric motor and got you out of the harbour, then you switched to generate and it provided electricity- first to recharge your batteries then to power some goodies?
I have been thinkin on this one for a while. I'm thinkin it will work as long as you spend most of your time sailing (which seems to be the common thread around here)
Negatives:
1. High initial cost
2. Weight and space limitations
3. Cutlass bearing wear and tear.
Positives:
1.No desiel or gas
2.No engine
3. Replace solar/wind system with a more robust and protected (inside the boat) system

Anyone done this yet? ???

[AdriftAtSea]

While the goal is admirable, I don't know if it is realistic.  For instance, the Cape Cod Canal, Panama Canal and the local swing bridge near my marina all require a vessel transiting them to be under power and capable of a certain minimum speed.

[oded kishony]

I saw a boat where a generator was connected to the prop shaft with a pulley. He recharged his batteries while sailing.

I have one of those flashlights that you shake and it charges a small battery. I've wondered if it would be possible to take advantage of a boat's constant motion to generate some juice that way.

Hopefully fuel cell technology will start to make significant progress when petroleum gets too expensive to be burned.

Oded

[WF]

Newt- Like the thought process there.  We all better start thinking about alternatives as oil won't last forever and at some point may just get so expensive as being prohibitive to a great many cruisers.

Adrift - I'm not a die hard disciple of engineless, but if realism were a main factor in my decisions I'd have given up on many things that have been the most rewarding.  On a practical side - one could always borrow or rent an outboard for canals.  I believe one is supposed to also have an engine here when transiting(not 100% sure) but I've seen boats occasionally transit the opening bridges around here under sail only.  Don't get me wrong I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there is a part of me that becomes riled when the government tells me I MUST use oil, especially on a sailboat.  To me it's a lot like saying if you own property you MUST use electricity.  I understand that with boats it can become a safety issue, but in simple, general terms I detest it.
Perhaps not having an engine would simply limit routes and certain places one could easily go.

[Godot]

I see absolutely no reason what-so-ever that you couldn't go engine-less, if that is what you want to do, provided you are aware of the limitations it will impose.

Cape Cod Canal, Chesapeake Canal, Panama Canal, etc ... out.
Intercoastal Waterway ... difficult.
Many, many marina's ... out.
Other places are probably also out.  But that still leaves an awful lot of places you can still sail.

As to not having the skill to go engineless, well, I'm not sure you can actually get that skill without not using the engine.  Your boat is small enough you can probably hook up a skulling or rowing system to move around (slowly) when necessary.  I'd think a hard dink would be useful in case you need to tow yourself off a sandbar or something.  Firm schedules (work?) are probably not compatible with engineless sailing.  You will need to pay even greater attention to the weather and those big scary freighters and such.  But if you can accept the limitations, and if engineless sailing turns you on, I say throw the beast overboard.  You'll probably find your seamanship skills improve far more rapidly that way, too.

[Toucantook]

There's good reasons for no inboard.  A 28 footer will have the interior space of a 32 footer of similar hull type with an engine.  This allows for more provisions and water for longer passages.  If the prop aperture  is filled and faired, it makes a speedier boat.  Toucan does  >>23%<<  faster than her sisters as a result of this.  This means shorter passage times, or, longer passages that can be done.
Toucan is 28ft and six tons.  I left the motor out of her and opted for an outboard.  A Yamaha 9.9 is all she needs to do hull speed with some to spare.  I have found that she can also be rowed at about three knots with some 12ft oars I made.  However, the period of acceleration is a bit lengthy, but on the other hand, once up to speed, its fairly easy.  During a cruise I did down to Grenada in 1996-7 I ran the outboard maybe 20 hours over the 5000 miles.  Most of those could just as easily have been rowed.  I was just lazy.

The Panama Canal, however,  requires all boats to be able to maintain five knots, so the outboard would be called for there.

[AdriftAtSea]

Actually, the Panama Canal requires a minimum full ahead boat speed of EIGHT knots as seen in this document. This is due to the time required to transit the canal and scheduling the opening and closing of the locks.  There are some pretty massive fees for boats that can not make the minimum transit times IIRC.   

Most boats of the sailfar mentality would have issues making the minimum requirements, powered or not. Eight knots is greater than hull speed on many of the boats represented here at sailfar.

[Lynx]

A lot of this depends on where you want to go and do. The marina where I am at now requires you to motor into the slip. I have found tidal currents to run at 2 mph on the ICW and sometimes higher.  Often 3.5 knots at the fuel dock.

A lot of the harbors in the Abacos, Bahamas you would not be able to get into execpt with good tide.

You can always not use it, but iti is nice to have.

The Big motor saved me many times and has "paid" for itself.

[Delezynski]

Regarding the Panama Canal, they will allow slower boats to make the passage. We watched, and recorded, friends of ours making the trip and posted it on YouTube as Panama Canal Transit.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_4Y-3mT6I-E&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_4Y-3mT6I-E&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Sorry! I can't figure out to make that URL short!

I understand that they are going to do a lot of trucking of boats like ours.

By the way, the boat in the video are now (as of yesterday I think) anchor down in Fatu Hiva! They averaged about 110 nautical miles a day!!! Better than some of the bigger boats.

Greg

[newt]

Wow.
Questions from a relative novice compare to most posters:
1. Is it cheaper to truck your yacht across the canal than to sail it for us mini-yachters? Could you even go to Columbia or Mexico and make it even more economical?
2. What do you think about making an inboard prop a generator? Better to do it with an outboard type unit or even a throw in back generator?

And now for a quiet rebuttal:
I don't think just because you do not have an internal combustion engine on board your yacht is crippled. I think you could reach close to hull speed on an electric motor. The only thing the people would notice is you don't make a lot of noise. The length of time you can do so would depend on the number of watt-hours you have saved up and the consumption of your electric motor. Kinda like (no almost exactly like) how much hydrocarbon fuel you have on board.
Storing electric power is a whole lot harder, but doable. And it has the advantage of being restored in route. Kinda like filling up in the middle of the Gulf Stream. I think the future looks bright for "engineless" sailboats...  ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

It very well may be easier and cheaper for small sailboats, like most of those in the sailfar crowd, to get trucked across, instead of taking the canal.  The canal fees all add up to quite a bit... $600 for the boat, then you have to pay the advisor and four-line handlers, and rent the fenders and lines, etc... and if your boat is a smaller one that can't make the minimum eight knots, you'll pay the delay fee as well.

[newt]

Hi Lynx ( and whomever else is listening)
My electric system would be a direct connect shaft to electric motor- generator. I should be able to wire it so it can power forward and reverse without a gearbox.  Of course I could put a fully feathering prop on it but that further increases the money.
I am just wondering about the shaft bearing and dripless seal- would it wear out prematurely because it is turning when the boat gets about a few knots and can generate electricity... Though replacing the bearing may be small potatoes compaired to maintaining a wind charger and solar cells with thier associated electronics.