Engineless cruising

[Bluenose]

Thanks CapnK,

She was a blast to sail for the minute I got to last year. Hopefully this will be a nice long season. Here is another picture just because.



I think the frustration for me comes from the way Engineless Sailing threads get hauled off topic. newt said"

1. This is not a thread about whither engines are good or not. We all use sailboats, hopefully all sail them. Sails good, engines stinky and usually bad.

Actually this isn't a thread about engines at all. Here is the original post.

I was having conversation with someone today about my long term aspirations of going engineless.  Please note that this is LONG TERM, I certainly don't feel my seamanship is enough for it now without safety suffering severely.  However, one day I'd very much like to completely end my dependence on oil/diesel.

Forgive me if this has been covered, if so I guess I'll just take the lashes, couldn't be worse than my strict Catholic boarding school days.

My question is:  Who here sails without an engine?  What are your thoughts on this?  Just how accomplished do those who are engineless think one should be before taking this leap?  Anyone have plans to eventually do so? 

Here is some good information, although a bit cocky & purist, on this subject.  http://www.oarclub.org/ 

The original poster was looking for guidance from people who have experience sailing engineless. This is the only thread on sailfar.net that I could fine devoted to sailing engineless. So maybe if we stayed a bit on topic and avoided the E-word things would settle down. After all, there are many threads available to discuss the merits of engines.

So I will talk about maximizing sailing time and for me that means sail area. And lots of it. I was a bit worried when I move up from my small 24 foot Bluenose Sloop (ah forum name mystery solved) to my modified 30 foot Shields. But she came through with flying colors.

This is a shot from my last fall sail on my haulout day (as is the photo above).



I almost always get to sail downwind against the incoming current on my way out of Fisherman Bay on Lopez. It usually looks something like this (the straight line is the way out and the tacking is coming home)



On this day the wind was quite light. Made it out nicely and actually had a reasonable turn of speed even in the light wind.



So from my experience I would say that if anyone wants to maximize their sailing time they want a boat with a very, very healthy SA/D ratio. I'm talking raceboat type numbers. Maybe an old racer-cruiser. Something that feels great in light air with her blade jib up. That way if you need to hank on something big you are really looking for light air performance.

For me sail area gives me choices and options. I don't have a wind speed meter but I am guess that in the above picture the wind is less than 5 kts. With a speed over ground (still a bit of current in my face) of 2.4 kts there isn't too much for me to worry about. And with the wind so light the sea condition is glassy and it is actually quite a beautiful way to sail.

[mrb]

Well now to strictly answere the question as to who here sails enginless I have to say no I don't.  However if the questions was who has sailed enginless I would say I have.  My first boat did not have an engine however she did have sweeps and also the ability to be sculled very efficiently.  When going out narrow passages with wind on the nose sculling was the means of propulsion if alone.  If three on board then the sweeps could be deployed.
As for experience before going enginless, that is really something that each skipper has to work out.  I and friends on first boat learned as you go but then when you are young with a metal boat_____.  Funny thing didn't give the motor thing a thought,how it is  why should we.
For me today I just like boating and don't really care how I accomplish that goal.  First priority is to sail and the longer the tack the better but I do enjoy making a coarse around a set of buoys if they present themselves. Rail under in 10ft pacific swells great.  Gosting along on flat water in the evening nice.  HOWEVER if there is no air I will never pass up chance to hop on board crank the iron jenny a putter around.  And yes current boat sculles ok, not great but ok.  Nothing quite so worthwhile as messing about in small boats or large ones.

[Bluenose]

I know that this thread is pretty far removed from the original but I was still thinking about the first post and what it takes to sail engineless. My first thoughts go to systems and boat types and all that sort. But in reality I think the origin is something quite different.

I think to sail engineless you really need to be quite odd. I don't mean eccentric or quirky, I mean kind of whacked. Certainly as measured by today's standard. Because there is no denying that having an engine adds an immense amount of convenience and comfort to boating. It is also true that all of those odd combination of winds and tides and mishaps present a challenge to the engineless sailor.

For me, fully embraced in oddness, I see the challenges and inconveniences as my reason to sail. I relish in the experience of finding solutions to challenging problems. Finding a second, third, etc solution to the what-ifs. If I am planning to go somewhere and I don't make it, I know that when I do get there, I have accomplished something using my own skills.

So I don't really think it is a seamanship issue, those skills will come, I think it is an attitude. I desire to do something that seems crazy in today's environment. It is very possible and doable just scary at first since you will likely be setting out in a direction without a lot of peer support.

In my own experience it has been, and continues to be, a very, very rewarding jouney.

Cheers and Happy Sailing,

Bill
Lopez Island, WA
Launch Day: 19 May 2009

[David_Old_Jersey]

Bill,

I've been following this thread with interest. and love the pics of your boat  8)

It is also true that all of those odd combination of winds and tides and mishaps present a challenge to the engineless sailor.

For me, fully embraced in oddness, I see the challenges and inconveniences as my reason to sail.

Sounds reason enuf to me  8)

[Frank]

Bluenose... I love your last post.Pretty well somes it up...and in a way NO ONE can debate. I have an OB ...although most would consider it undersized. I have no intentions of not having one but reading your last post has made me think of sailing on Fanshawe Lake in London Ontario 25 yrs ago. I didn't have the time to spare the 1 1/2 hour drive to Lake Huron at the time so I joined the sailing club there which was only a 10 minute drive. It had a 'no engine' policy. We kept our boats on a trailer, launched and sailed on/off the dock. I found it a terrifying experience at first even though I had been sailing a while. There was a gentleman there, aged 82, that had an ole Oday mariner.He was a absolute pleasure to watch. He would pass most boats sailing and could dock his boat gracefully with ease. I learned more about sailing that year than any other. I'd be so outta practice now that I'd probably take out 3 boats trying...but I remember it being easier than I thought after a while. Any hoot....good for ya and have a grog. Glad you've taken that approach. I'm sure you'll be the guy that others watch ..sailing "gracefully with  ease"   ;)

[SV Wind Dancer]

My last vessel was a Bristol Sailstar 19...very similar to the O'Day Mariner...and, believe it or no, it was my cruising home for three very fun, challenging, years.  Living on the hook, engineless the entire time, not low tech, but NO tech...hibachi for cooking, driftwood for fuel, candles for light.  In those days it was entirely possible to buy $20 worth of supplies and wave bye-bye to the civs for weeks.  Now I l/a my Cherubini Hunter 27, which to some is far too small to live aboard, but as a sizeable man who has learned to enjoy life on a 19 footer, by comparison the 27 foot ~Wind Dancer~ is luxurious.  And yet!...I long to make my present boat dedazz simple as the last, and what I wrestle with is whether to go engineless again.  I prefer the aesthetics of a clean, green, minimalist lean cruiser, but the Yanmar GM1 8hp is economical, about as unkillable as an anvil, and that appeals to me.  On the other hand I like simplicity, independence from fossil fuel, maintenance, spare parts, the extra room...hmm

[CapnK]

I loved the little Universal M2-12 diesel on my Com-Pac, but have never looked back since getting this Ariel with it's 6hp outboard-in-a-well. I really really really wish I could find a 3hp'ish engine that was geared and propped for a displacement boat, like the old Seagulls. Just enough to push the boat at hull speed in fairly calm weather is all I want... Going to experiment with that somewhat this summer - using my dinghy outboard (and if I get the chance to make one, a yuloh). It still isn't geared and propped right, but I just want to see how I get by with a very minimalist engine. There are times it can be handy to hear the dinosaurs scream... ;)

[Mario G]

LOL its not like we were really tring to cruise with out an engine it just happen that way.  The good thing is now that our boat is safe at the marina I figured out what I need to fix it.
Because we are use to sailing without the motor I'm sure we will use it as little as possible.

[CharlieJ]

Laura and I sail both ways ;) ;)

We have three sailboats that have no engines- a couple of Dolphin Srs and an 18 foot open trimaran (used to sail a Prindle 18), and one that does.

We sailed and cruised on the Prindle, all over the bay systems on the Texas coast. We currently have our 18 foot trimaran, which has no engine nor provisions for one, and have sailed two Texas 200 events using that boat-400 miles of hard sailing.

We are currently at 10 months and around 2500 miles on a prolonged cruise on our outboard powered 25 footer, currently anchored off Rock Sound, Eleuthera. This after traversing the entire gulf coast, across the Gulf Stream, and through the Berry's and Exumas.

I can say with total assurance that had we no engine, we would not be sitting here.  We have had so much adverse wind over the trip, which required either motoring, or motor sailing, or just not going, that we'd probably still be in Bimini-or even Florida.

We try hard to sail as much as we can, but f'r instance- you are NOT going to sail the ICW through Eastern Texas and western Louisiana- ain't gonna happen. And offshore there is nasty- thousands of oil rigs, shallow waters and head winds.

So, yeah, sailing around, on weekend cruises is neat engineless. And sailing open ocean is also great. But the fact is, in many places you simply cannot get in under sail with any degree of safety these days. Nassau Harbor comes to mind. Cruise ships, inter-island freighters, harbor ferries, you name it. Can you do it? Probably.  Can you do it safely? that's another question.

So from my point of view, sail when you can, and when you can't, use the iron wind. Treat the boat as AN AUXILLIARY sailboat ;D ;D

[Mario G]

The 1st mate and I decided to experiance every thing that could go wrong on our shake down voyage and get it out of the way.  ::)  we never had an engine on our-22 while sailing the lake, but for our coastal sailing I learnd you want to have it nore to get ungrounded. ;D

[SV Wind Dancer]

Funny how folks get into 'control mode'...when I felt my lifelines were a hazard and took them down, strangers went out of their way to demand explanations...when I removed the 'privacy bulkheads' from the interior, more than one person became High Priest of Teak and warned how altering design and balance of internal stresses would lead to disaster...instead of paying thru the nose for awlgrip I laid adhesive traction strips made for shower/bath use...from the reaction you'd have thought I'd run over a nun...when someone learned I had a chute and not a series drogue, he informed me that not only was I doomed to death, but that he was glad I didn't carry EPIRB so his taxes wouldn't be wasted saving me...!  I'ts been a while since I had the 'doomed without an engine' debate, especially since my current vessel -has- an engine, I've gotten a pass... -all- my previous SVs were unpowered, back to when Beatles were still a band, yet, I still live...pining away for the lost lotus fields of the TX ICW...alas, alas ;^)

[SV Wind Dancer]

BTW I'm surprised no one on the thread mentioned the strongest argument IMO to -have- an auxiliary engine...an incapacitating accident, injury or medical emergency  :^(  All the sailing confidence in the world is checkmated by a broken leg...     

[Captain Smollett]

How is having an engine to going to help if you have, say, a heart attack, sustain a severe head injury, get sick (like severe infection)? 

It is my personal viewpoint that placing an engine in the "safety net" category is false security, period.  An engine should, in my opinion, be seen solely as convenience and NOTHING more - helpful but never, EVER 'needed' or 'relied upon' for the safety of vessel or crew.

YMMV.

[Frank]

"It is my personal viewpoint that placing an engine in the "safety net" category is false security, period.  An engine should, in my opinion, be seen solely as convenience and NOTHING more - helpful but never, EVER 'needed' or 'relied upon' for the safety of vessel or crew."


........don't hold back...tell us how you really feel  ;D :o :D

[CharlieJ]

yet, I still live...pining away for the lost lotus fields of the TX ICW...alas, alas ;^)

;D ;D

Lotus fields???Au contraire- just some nasty hard miles to put behind you heading from Texas to points east. And if you happen to reside Texas you kinda MUST put them behind on the way to the Bahamas.  ;)

You really have three choices-

Do the boring, long, listen to the engine number, through the most congested with commercial traffic part of the entire ICW, much much heavier than anywhere east credoast.

Go off shore  and pound to weather against the prevailing SE winds for some 500 miles or so, sailing through a total mine field of oil rigs- Thousands of them.


Or put the boat on a trailer and do 700 miles to windward via interstate. We don't own a trailer.

Laura and I tried number two once- nasty days- we came back in and motored.

Once past New Orleans, you find waters where you CAN sail, and we do. In fact we always rejoice when we clear the Florida Ave bridge jus,t past Industrial lock and are clear of the crappy part.

As I said in my first post- Use the boat as an AUXILIARY, which is pretty much what Smollet is saying.

In some areas, it just ain't worth the hassle to try to sail. But when it IS possible, certainly do so. Much more pleasant that way ;D

[newt]

There is another way....
Charlie and Captain- you view for a minute... What about sweeps? I used to have  a Catalina 27 that I would row out of the harbor. Not that easy, but I was able to travel.  As I see it, the only place I really cannot sail is crowded marinas/ harbor areas. If a boat is less than say 8k displacement, would you think it crazy to get rid of the engine an put in sweeps? At what displacement do you think they become impractical?

[mrb]

For a moment I had an urge to post but like a bad dream the urge suddenly left me.  I feel much better now, thank you.

Good sailing to you all, may the winds be in your favor for another day, Melvin

[Mario G]

I should also say I carry a paddle on both my Chrysler C-26&C-22 and it always starts on first pull.

[marujo_sortudo]

IIRC, the Pardeys had their 17500# or so sailboat set up for sculling and rowing.  No engine, of course.  They could move her at about 1.5 kts in calm waters.  They make good arguments against having an engine.  I figure if you can sail 200,000 nm w/o an engine, it can't be that necessary.  That said, anyone w/o an engine should plan well, be set up for sculling/rowing, and have VERY good ground tackle.  Of course, these are all a good idea even with an engine if you're doing serious cruising... 

OTOH, engineless cruising and schedules are largely incompatible.  Also, many modern harbors and marinas, assume you have an engine and aren't very friendly to approach by sail.  (But many of those harbors are well worth skipping, and who needs marinas anyway?  ;) )

[SV Wind Dancer]

I'm getting ready for a primarily on the hook existence, increasing water capacity to 200gal+, coasthop in search of secluded anchorages where I can still connect wireless, the internet biz that has paid my bills will go even further...sailing goals in a nutshell.  I just like the idea of a starkly simple boat and the problemsolving of respecting the forces at work and still achieving your aim.  I think the average sailor who finds their crutch has conked out suddenly finds himself having to think a lot longer and account for a lot more factors as well as throw their schedule out the window.  Here's the flash:  some people LIKE thinking about sailing that way...some people don' NEED no steenkeeng schedules.  Anyway...747 pilots have a real good argument against hanggliders, but their sermon ends at the edge of a cliff  :^)