Engineless cruising

[CapnK]

I'm doing the 'happy medium'. I have a 6hp 4 stroke Merc right now, but ever my eye wanders to my 3.5hp dinghy motor, as being "maybe *just enough*" for getting into somewhere when needed, and a lot lighter and smaller for the 99% of the time it'll be stowed away... :)

Greg - I looked for that YouTube video - is this it - S/V 'Moose'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNtKDCutCEI

[Norm]

I had a 45 foot race boat with an engine that was mostly weight and repair expenses.  I sailed her in and out of lots of places including a few marinas.  She was such a fast and handy sailor that the lack of an engine was seldom a problem.  In those places where an engine was required, we got a tow.

There is a book, "Loki and Loon" by... I think... Pritchard.  He and his wife cruised and raced a 39 foot yawl all over New England without an engine.  Again, Loki was a very handy vessel.  In those days there were few marinas.

The Pardy adventures are all engineless.

A few small cruisers in the Caribbean are engineless.

My mom and dad cruised for six months during their honeymoon in a boat without an engine.  Dad rowed.  Their boat was a 26 foot sailing lifeboat.

It is really about "time."  If you have the time to enjoy the slow days an engine is unnecessary.

Today, sail and power boats at 40 feet and up have thrusters so they can shoe-horn into tight marinas.  Big engines guarantee arrivals at marinas on time.

Time is a curious resource for sailors.

[newt]

I'm wondering (I do that allot) if it is easier to go engineless by setting anchor rather than going in a slip at night, and using your dingy to go to shore and do all your shopping etc... It just seems like modern marinas have such tangled ways to get in and out of. Of course this would put a premium on anchorages if everyone did this, but I am betting that most boaters would be too lazy to do this. And maybe that is what the mooring ball are for. ;)

[CharlieJ]

When I was living aboard, and cruising full time, and now when we cruise, we normally do just that. We seldom ever (nor does Laura when she's by herself) go into a marina. We almost always anchor under sail and usually get underway from anchor using sails only.

You'll find the most true cruisers do the same thing. Maybe not the anchoring under sail part, but definitely the anchoring out part. I didn't meet many who could AFFORD to spend nights in marinas that often ;D

In fact, the last 10 months to a year  I lived aboard and cruised, the boat NEVER touched a dock- we always anchored out. Used the dinghy to get water, fuel, whatever.

Additionally, we've seen several marinas that forbid sailing inside the marina- you HAVE to motor or row. We try to stay out of places like that if at all possible.

[Tim]

In fact, the last 10 months to a year  I lived aboard and cruised, the boat NEVER touched a dock- we always anchored out. Used the dinghy to get water, fuel, whatever.

Well if there was a "devil" icon I would have to ask you how much Tehani has been away from the dock in the last 10 months ;)

But actually I was going to ask that you to post some pics of the mini-tri on this forum, because after all it is small, and I would consider 200 miles "far" enough  ;D

[CharlieJ]

 ;D

Twice with me aboard, 11 days with just Laura aboard. Things have just conspired to keep us tied to the dock the last year for the most part.  NOT willingly I might add. We HAVE spent a couple nights aboard though. Hey- we haven't even had time to take her over to have her hauled- got the money in hand too.

But one or the other of us is aboard at least 4 times a week. I found out the other day that Laura drives down and at least LOOKS at the boat on her way to work often.


And yeah- I'll post some pics of the sharpie conversion. Got the cross arms installed today, will be attaching the amas tomorrow and I'll shoot some pics of that once they are on.

The living room is filling up with gear ;D Ice chests, stoves, lanterns, tents, sleeping pads, etc Laura has arranged to swap a few days and will be taking some without pay to make the sail. We're REALLY looking forward to it.

[Lynx]

It is miuch cheeper to anchor out if you can find a spot and holds in all weather or in the weather that you are expecting, with the hopes that nobody drags into you.

I do prefer anchoring out or a mooring than a Dock most of the time. In 7 months I have spend 1 month at a dock with a great rate and 3 months on a mooring ball.

[Bluenose]

I have read a number of forum posts on engineless sailing. I find it disappointing how often they turn into discussions on alternative propulsion, or how to use your engine less often or propeller technology etc.

I find that sailing without an engine is just a choice with its own set of consequences just like sailing with an auxiliary engine. Sailing without an engine is possible, practical and can be very enjoyable.

Rather that decide this or that isn't possible or practical without an engine why can't a group of skilled sailors take a shot at the "impossible" issues of sailing engineless and come up with some solutions in an engineless sailing thread. Because I think they are out there waiting to be found (or remembered from the past).

This is my first post so hope I haven't been too harsh. It isn't my intent. I sail engineless because I just love to sail.

Bill
http://knockaboutsloops.blogspot.com/

ps. As an electric vehicle owner, I did enjoy the conversation about electric motors.

[s/v Faith]

Bluenose,

  Welcome aboard.  You are right, this thread did get off topic since we were all excited by the 're-e-power' posts.  I have split those posts off and added them to this thread;

  Eric's electric propulsion idea & other electric motor options

  Maybe you can take a minute and post to the intro thread to tell us something about yourself, your boat, and your plans.

Glad to have you aboard.

  I think you will find there are others here who support enginless cruising... members like James Baldwin "AtomVoyager" who has done the majority of his mileage on multiple circumnavigations sans motor.

[Cmdr Pete]

A difficult situation is trying to buck a strong adverse current in light winds. Without enough breeze, you simply can't generate enough drive to overcome the current and you can't develop any apparent wind. Progress, if any, is painfully slow.

Hugging the shore to escape the worst of the current helps, a little. But, be careful you don't blow a tack, which can happen when you have no momentum.

I don't have any answers, but I can pretty much guarantee you won't be able to row against the current either

[Bluenose]

Bluenose,

  Welcome aboard.  You are right, this thread did get off topic since we were all excited by the 're-e-power' posts.  I have split those posts off and added them to this thread;

  Eric's electric propulsion idea & other electric motor options

  Maybe you can take a minute and post to the intro thread to tell us something about yourself, your boat, and your plans.

Glad to have you aboard.

  I think you will find there are others here who support enginless cruising... members like James Baldwin "AtomVoyager" who has done the majority of his mileage on multiple circumnavigations sans motor.

Thanks for the warm welcome and your effort to keep this thread on track. I will definitely take your advice and properly introduce myself.

Cheers, Bill

[Bluenose]

A difficult situation is trying to buck a strong adverse current in light winds. Without enough breeze, you simply can't generate enough drive to overcome the current and you can't develop any apparent wind. Progress, if any, is painfully slow.

Hugging the shore to escape the worst of the current helps, a little. But, be careful you don't blow a tack, which can happen when you have no momentum.

I don't have any answers, but I can pretty much guarantee you won't be able to row against the current either

It's funny, time and time again I hear people tell me what can't be done. They stack one bad choice or situation after another to prove that sailing without an engine is impossible, inconvenient or unsafe. I can understand making different choices but let's be real here. If I stacked a bunch of combined problems on a sailboat with an auxiliary engine they would be in trouble as well (think about a lee shore, mainsail covers on and a clogged fuel filter).

But I have experience the situation you mentioned a few times. I know better than needing to sail against the current with a dying breeze. But still, I sometimes need reminding. One time in particular I went for a nice late afternoon daysail. I sailed up San Juan Channel past Friday Harbor with the current. As it was getting late I figured I would zoom home hard on the wind with little worry about the current. Well a few tacks in the old pop rivets in the gooseneck decided that they were done for the day and I lost the use of my boom. So I sailed under my genny alone three miles home against the current. With just the genny my Bluenose Sloop didn't point well and during lulls in the wind she wasn't making headway against the current (she has a fractional rig with a big mainsail). So I headed for shallow water. Which I thinks helps a lot. I also had my anchor available as a backup. But I hugged the shoreline (I don't worry about running aground as much when my speed is low) until I could fall off and reach home.

All in all I learned a great deal and found one more thing that wasn't "impossible". I have also been exploring how to "drastically" increase my sail area in light breezes so I can make headway against stronger and stronger currents.

I also don't quite understand what you mean by "blowing a tack". I don't think I have ever not come around when I wanted in even the lightest wind. Sometimes I will back wind the jib or skull the rudder but she always come around.

It is always my hope that conversations like this don't become a debate about engines or no engines but rather "I wonder what I would do in that situation if my boom failed or my engine failed". What choices would I have. How could I save my boat or crew.

Cheers, Bill

[OptiMystic]

A big part of this is the time pressures of modern society that so many of us feel. "Waiting out a doldrum and tide change" is not an excuse that many employers find acceptable for coming in Tuesday afternoon instead of Monday morning.

Over the weekend, I did my first test of a sculling oar I made. It is made from the top 7' of an old fiberglass tapered mast and a 2x4 butchered on the bandsaw. It's 11.5' long with a 3' long blade cut so it is thick at the bottom edge (and that is where the shaft protrudes from) and thin on the top edge. I came up with that shape from loooking at various ones on the net and reading about the properties of the different shapes. I know - I will have to take some pics or it doesn't exist.  :) it's pinned together so it comes apart and stows in my tiny cabin (actually stows quite well under cockpit rails). I think it did OK, but my first attempt at a removable bracket for it did not (serious torque!) so I couldn't really get as good a read on how it was doing as I would have liked. I am also inexperienced at true sculling. BTW, if I decide the blade is workable, I will shape the last couple of inches on the shaft (which slides inside the fiberglass tube) to fit the top of my rudder so it will double as a backup tiller. With my light weight boat, I am expecting to be able to power through some wind and current. This is primarily a backup for the motor, but if it works well it may often be preferable.

[Cmdr Pete]

Much depends on the amount of current, of course. 1-2 kts of current might only be an annoyance. 3-4 kts can render the boat practically helpless.

Not to be a naysayer, but there has to be a practical limit as to how much horsepower a human can generate to propel a boat. The weight and type of boat is probably the big factor.

My little skiff rows beautifully, but against a 3kt current its brutal

[Bluenose]

A big part of this is the time pressures of modern society that so many of us feel. "Waiting out a doldrum and tide change" is not an excuse that many employers find acceptable for coming in Tuesday afternoon instead of Monday morning.

I completely concur with this. I think that making a choice to have an engine to meet schedules is a great solution. It is not foolproof, but much more likely you can be where you want, when you want. But this is definitely not why I sail. Just different choices.

Over the weekend, I did my first test of a sculling oar I made. It is made from the top 7' of an old fiberglass tapered mast and a 2x4 butchered on the bandsaw. It's 11.5' long with a 3' long blade cut so it is thick at the bottom edge (and that is where the shaft protrudes from) and thin on the top edge. I came up with that shape from loooking at various ones on the net and reading about the properties of the different shapes. I know - I will have to take some pics or it doesn't exist.  Smiley it's pinned together so it comes apart and stows in my tiny cabin (actually stows quite well under cockpit rails). I think it did OK, but my first attempt at a removable bracket for it did not (serious torque!) so I couldn't really get as good a read on how it was doing as I would have liked. I am also inexperienced at true sculling. BTW, if I decide the blade is workable, I will shape the last couple of inches on the shaft (which slides inside the fiberglass tube) to fit the top of my rudder so it will double as a backup tiller. With my light weight boat, I am expecting to be able to power through some wind and current. This is primarily a backup for the motor, but if it works well it may often be preferable.

Thanks for posting info on your sculling oar. I hope you will keep us posted on you experiences. I have been intrigued by sculling ever since I first started learning about engineless sailing. It seems that in the hands of a master they can be quite versatile. Forwards and backwards and spinning the boat in its own length. So far I haven't found a way to incorporate one with the long overhangs of my boats. But I will always keep thinking and figuring. I have elected to row with a single two piece oar standing and facing forward with the traveler off of center line and the tiller between my knees.



Each piece of the oar will store under the side decks for easy access.

Much depends on the amount of current, of course. 1-2 kts of current might only be an annoyance. 3-4 kts can render the boat practically helpless.

Not to be a naysayer, but there has to be a practical limit as to how much horsepower a human can generate to propel a boat. The weight and type of boat is probably the big factor.

My little skiff rows beautifully, but against a 3kt current its brutal

Again, I am in complete agreement. A three kt current with no wind would be brutal. For me, with anything over about 8 kts it would be doable I think. But one of the things that really draws me to sailing is the learning and seamanship. If I have put myself in a place where I am "forced" to work against a 3-4 kt current I have made some poor choices and I don't think that I am displaying good seamanship. Even with an engine I would be putting myself in a situation where a single point failure could cost me my boat. I like to have many options in case things go wrong.

Cheers, Bill

ps.. Just love your skiff...

[OptiMystic]

Here is an article on sculling a big boat:

http://www.scullingoar.bravehost.com/

You'll note that even though he is a proponent, he is very realistic about what it will accomplish.

You may also note that what he is doing has little in common with what I am doing. Mine is more inspired by the Bahama-style oar:

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Stories/Sculling/scullthree.html

The blade is extremely long in comparison to its width. In section, the oar is usually a shallow diamond or triangle used flat side down.

I was also aiming for the 12' length mentioned, but I feared I might not have enough overlap (wood shaft inside the fiberglass) and didn't want to risk breaking the only 7' tapered fiberglass tube I have (they don't fall from the heavens very often) so I shoved it in another 6" and it felt very solid.

EDIT - I also incorporated some thinking from reading about a Japanese small boat sculling oar which led me to question the value of symmetry in the Bahamas style oar. When I post a picture you will see what I mean. If I understand correctly (don't bet more than you can afford to lose on that), most of the work is done by half the blade and you roll the oar over for the stroke in the other direction, still leading with the same half.

[Shipscarver]

Has anyone tried skulling a 10,000 + displacement boat? It seems to me that I have a very dim memory of John Vigor talking about skulling his boat?

[OptiMystic]

Has anyone tried skulling a 10,000 + displacement boat? It seems to me that I have a very dim memory of John Vigor talking about skulling his boat?

Check the first article I linked to in the previous message; the author sculls a 16 ton gaff cutter. Here is the link again:

http://www.scullingoar.bravehost.com/

[OptiMystic]

Here is an article on sculling a big boat:

http://www.scullingoar.bravehost.com/

You'll note that even though he is a proponent, he is very realistic about what it will accomplish.

You may also note that what he is doing has little in common with what I am doing. Mine is more inspired by the Bahama-style oar:

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Stories/Sculling/scullthree.html

The blade is extremely long in comparison to its width. In section, the oar is usually a shallow diamond or triangle used flat side down.

I was also aiming for the 12' length mentioned, but I feared I might not have enough overlap (wood shaft inside the fiberglass) and didn't want to risk breaking the only 7' tapered fiberglass tube I have (they don't fall from the heavens very often) so I shoved it in another 6" and it felt very solid.

EDIT - I also incorporated some thinking from reading about a Japanese small boat sculling oar which led me to question the value of symmetry in the Bahamas style oar. When I post a picture you will see what I mean. If I understand correctly (don't bet more than you can afford to lose on that), most of the work is done by half the blade and you roll the oar over for the stroke in the other direction, still leading with the same half.

One more addition (for now anyway) to my comments about my oar (which I will photograph this weekend) which is kind of a general thing about making a sculling oar...

I linked to page 3 of an old sculling article earlier to show the Bahamas style oar.
If you read page one of that article:
http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Stories/Sculling/scullone.html
it discusses the two types of sculling. If you read through the descriptions quickly, you will probably wonder what kind of idiot would use the slalom style when it is very clear that the falling leaf style can provide more power and speed. The answer is my kind of idiot. Read more carefully - the slalom style is best with a steering oar and a steering oar can be used as a reasonable effective rudder in a pinch. The slalom style is more suited to tight manuevers - starting, stopping and turning. Now I am getting into personal theory derived from that article and other sources. The leading edge is what really does the work and the rotation causes the same leading edge to be used in both directions. So I made a shaft and blade such that it is like the top half of an 8" blade. It is smaller and stows better plus it can be cut from a 2x4. I will try the airfoil (mentioned on the page 3 link) next if I am not pleased with this. Also, not that I said the falling leaf style "can provide more power and speed" but I am not convinced it is substantially more efficient but rather capable of putting more power to use. In other words I think you may be able to go faster but will tire more quickly and I am not planning to go a long distance sculling (yeah, I read about Matt Layden crossing the Gulf Stream in the original Paradox with next to no wind).

[OptiMystic]

OK, pictures...