Engineless cruising

[boatyardpirates]

Great string here.  I am currently preparing for an open ended cruise on our 24' cutter.  I debate the whole engine thing everyday.  My first boat had no engine so I didn't know any better.  It was a twenty six foot Seaquest and I was 18.  Now I'm forty and on boat 11.  The only time I have truly felt unsafe at sea is when my engine is running.  As soon as I start the engine I feel tense till it is shut off.  Its like I'm just waiting for it to stall any second for any reason.  Even with new engines and I have had a few I just don't trust them.  We live and sail in the San Juan's where there are fairly strong currents so a tiny kicker would be nice but still I hate the idea of an engine.  We are installing a mount so we can get through the canals but we may go around the real way so I will have 4 holes and a unsightly contraption hanging there for nothing.  I'm not a purist I just don't like engines.
www.boatyardpirates.com

[boatyardpirates]

I posted this on an old string before I realized how old it was so I figured I would start a new one.  I would love to hear more about sailors without engines good and bad. I am currently preparing for an open ended cruise on our 24' cutter.  I debate the whole engine thing everyday.  My first boat had no engine so I didn't know any better.  It was a twenty six foot Seaquest and I was 18.  Now I'm forty and on boat 11.  The only time I have truly felt unsafe at sea is when my engine is running.  As soon as I start the engine I feel tense till it is shut off.  Its like I'm just waiting for it to stall any second for any reason.  Even with new engines and I have had a few I just don't trust them.  We live and sail in the San Juan's where there are fairly strong currents so a tiny kicker would be nice but still I hate the idea of an engine.  We are installing a mount so we can get through the canals but we may go around the real way so I will have 4 holes and a unsightly contraption hanging there for nothing.  I'm not a purist I just don't like engines.
www.boatyardpirates.com

[Bluenose]

I quite enjoyed your website and all of the gorgeous photos. I wish you well in pending travels.

In my way of thinking if your are asking yourself if you really need an engine you probably don't. It doesn't appear to me that your life is bound by time constraints but more by not wanting extra expenses.

Where do you sail in the San Juan's? I sail from Lopez Island. Seems I would have noticed your Alegra 24. They aren't that common. Maybe this summer we will run into each other on the water.

Cheers, Bill

[Bluenose]

I answered the other thread before I saw this one.

Ah... the old engineless, engine debate. I hardly have the strength. So I will only dip my toe in this time.

Sometimes it seems, looking at the modern world of boating, that sailboats have always had engines and that the first 4,000 or 5,000 years didn't count. Obviously engine are great aids for convenience and powering systems, but I contend that at best they don't add a thing to a good sailboat and often they diminish the sailing qualities.

So if you feel comfortable in your sailing skills and have patience and the ability to plan your voyages (which you probably should do with an engine anyway) I say go for it.

Cheers, Bill
http://knockaboutsloops.blogspot.com/


ps.. When did the 5000 year old tradition of sailing a boat without an engine become a purist action?

[s/v Faith]

I posted this on an old string before I realized how old it was so I figured I would start a new one.....

  There is nothing wrong with posting to an old thread, as a matter of fact we encourage that here.   ;D

There is a lot of information, and might as well take advantage of it rather thengoing through the re-invention of the wheel every time.

FWIW,

  I admire those who cruise engine less.  I might consider it for something like an extended cruise of the South Pacific (based entirely on what I have read) but not for a cruise that included the East Coast or the Gulf Coast of the US. Rose and I Sail ALOT, often where other boats are rarely seen to sail (one of the many advantages of being small).  We were the odd balls who were often told to lower our sails and motor through bridges... at times even being told it was the law.  :P  That said I would recommend having some work-around for enginless crusing for those times when nothing else works.

  Even if it is just a 2hp motor on your dingy that you can lash to the side.. there are times when the options are just not good without some means to move the boat.

  For instance, if you sail near land where there is excessive wind shadow from buildings... or need to transit a lock... Or just get rousted from an anchorage in the middle of the night because the wind changes.. or a barge comes... or you are becalmed and that big ole cruise ship does not appear to see you...  :o

  Just some things to think about.

[Tim]

  There is nothing wrong with posting to an old thread, as a matter of fact we encourage that here.   ;D

;) saves in time searching

[newt]

It is my opinion that the sailor that sails without and engine (or does not use one) is the better sailor. That said, there were probably more shipwrecks back then because of natures ways. Imagine trying to get off a shore with the tide and wind against you. Or being demasted and just being a stones throw away from safety, but being carried by the current. I try to sail engineless, just keeping the darn thing off. If it offends you on the outside of your boat, get a small outboard and keep it in good preserved condition down below as ballast.  ;D
I have a little (6 h) outboard.  If you want it, PM me.

[CharlieJ]

Well, maybe.

There seems to be a few things missing these days that were present in the days of pure sail. Like warping buoys strung along channels leading into harbor, so boats could be warped from one to the next.

And there don't seem to be any Whitehalls around anymore to carry passengers in when the ship was forced to lay offshore at anchor due to foul or no winds.

Some places, some times, it is good seamanship to be using an engine.

Plus you were not sharing narrow waterways with things like this-

[Captain Smollett]

In my discussions with fellow sailors on engine-less as an ideal, I find the most oft cited reason against going without mechanical propulsion is NOT these safety issues.  It is schedule or convenience based...some variation of "what if there is no wind" or "what if the tide is wrong."

Just curious...in those places where they claim it is "illegal" to sail through a bridge, is that really so?  I've not found any such laws (which does not mean they are not there).  I mean, the navigable waterways are for public use.  Using an engine if you have one is one thing, but making a waterway off limits to a vessel without an engine is something else entirely.

Anyone know of a specific case where a boater was cited for sailing through an open bridge, with no collision and no damage?

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollett—

I don't know if it is illegal, but the swing bridge that I deal with regularly will not open for a sailboat that has its sails unfurled.  The bridge requires you to pass through under power, with the sails furled from my conversations with them.

[CharlieJ]

Back in the early 80s I had a bridge tender in Florida refuse to open and let  me through under sail. I told him my engine was dead and I could sail just fine. They forced me to call the marine patrol, who sent a boat to tie alongside. I then had her drop her engines into neutral and we sailed though- but all was well since she was lashed alongside and "powering" me through the bridge.

The NEXT bridge down the way, just north of Ft Pierce, opened on demand for me, still under sail. I sailed through with zero difficulties.

This aboard a 35 foot trimaran

Of course I also had a tender refuse to open for me, for over an hour and a half, because I "didn't signal correctly" Finally got through when I called  Coast Guard Savannah on the VHF and they called the tender and ORDERED her to open the bridge. This was the bridge JUST north of Thunderbolt Marina in Georgia.

[Captain Smollett]

I talked to Nathan about this this evening.  The miles under his various keels are in the 5 figures...East and West Coasts of the US, Sea of Cortez, Bahamas, Carib, etc.

He said they can and will refuse to OPEN a bridge for a vessel under sail, but if it opens on a schedule or is otherwise open, they cannot refuse you PASSAGE through an open bridge.  He said he was well aware of this notion that tenders can refuse you passage under sail, but that it is a myth...there is no basis for it.

He used to sail the Miami River a lot and its associated 11 bridges...

I sailed through Ben Sawyer Bridge on the ICW just north of Charleston, and the bridge tender came out to ask me what was up...I told her we had had a mechanical failure and had no other propulsion.  She just watched us go by.

Food for thought as they say.

[Oldrig]

This is always an interesting topic.

Like Pirates, I sailed for years without any auxiliary power. I was a kid, and I was sailing either a 12-foot catboat or a larger, 18-foot, hard-chined marconi-rigged racing catboat. I took the latter through some pretty hair-raising conditions. Sometimes I had to drop the hook, or just drift. Sometimes I just rushed through, probably because I was in my teens and early 20s and didn't know any better.

However, I think the real key is where you want to sail. As Dan said, in our area there are waters where you simply cannot go without an engine. The Cape Cod Canal comes to mind right away. And there's Woods Hole Passage. I've gone through there under sail a couple of times, and it was obviously done that way in the Age of Sail. But the old-timers didn't have to contend with heavy commercial traffic (they'll usually leave you alone if you keep to the edge of the channel) and Sea-Ray hordes during the summer. Those weekend warroirs are much more dangerous than the rocks or the current.

For a long offshore passage, I'd think you could do perfectly well without an engine. But for entering unfamiliar harbors, crossing shipping lanes or cruising close to shore, I'd certainly feel more comfortable knowing I had a "steel genny" in reserve.

Just my thoughts as a graybeard.

--Joe

[AdriftAtSea]

I'd agree with Joe... the main requirement for an aux engine is coastal... on the open ocean, there's very little need for it.

[boatyardpirates]

Still no plans for an engine but we mounted the new outboard bracket for getting through the canals.  We had discussed having a small 6hp in the lazzerette but there are still the fumes. Our boat obviously has no motor but we also have no head so our boat is very fresh.  Mounting the mount :) was an all day affair but finally got it done.  Half way through I was kicking myself wondering why I was wasting so much time ruining the beautiful lines of our boat and spending so much money on something I may never use.  We are based out of Bellingham but the boat has not been in the water since i purchased her.  She had fallen from grace and has been a full time job with the refit.  We are planning on launching in the next few weeks (months :(  ) and thats when the real fun begins.  If you want to know how much cruising costs it easy.  Its how much you have.  I had the perfect one man one dog boat and was weeks away from setting out when I met a girl.  That was three years ago and that boat just couldn't do the 2 dogs 2 humans thing.  When we purchased the Rio we could easily have purchased a 40' fixed but never would have had the yacht we have know.  We listed our Flicka for sail moved into our car and decided we would drive around the world if we had too to find the perfect boat.  She ended up finding us and the rest is history. Ali

[Oldrig]

Hey Pirates:

That outboard sounds like a good plan. As you probably know, Yves Gelinas, the inventor of the Cap Horn windvane, circumnavigated on an engineless Alberg 30 Jean du Sud. He mounted a small outboard on a swinging bracket for the times when he had to rely on auxiliary power. I don't think he actually used the kicker very much.

Good luck on the voyage!

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

Hey Pirates:

That outboard sounds like a good plan. As you probably know, Yves Gelinas, the inventor of the Cap Horn windvane, circumnavigated on an engineless Alberg 30 Jean du Sud. He mounted a small outboard on a swinging bracket for the times when he had to rely on auxiliary power. I don't think he actually used the kicker very much.

Good luck on the voyage!

--Joe

It was my understanding that he mounted that ob AFTER completing his circumnav.  If my memory is serving, he solo circled completely engineless.

His outboard bracket is an interesting design...

[Oldrig]

Smollett:

I stand corrected. Here's the intro from the Jean du Sud website

"Before he set out around the world, Yves Gélinas took the engine out of his Alberg 30 Jean-du-Sud. When time came to re-power his boat after coming back home, the designer of the Cape Horn Integrated Self-Steering System adopted an original solution."

At any rate, his solution was "original" and interesting.

--Joe

[evantica]

did I get this right? ??? I throw out my engine, in my early Havsfidra. Coz I needed the space, and become a better sailor without...If your on a big ocean It dosn't matter anyhow, can never carrie enough fuel so...and also get rid of the smell! just an oppinion

[Godot]

Sure, why not, throw the beast overboard.  Of course, sooner or later every voyage comes to an end, and when you will get off the big ocean and you might prefer to have it again.