Engineless cruising

[Publius]

Not to take this conversation off topic, but... oh what the heck:

WF stated a dislike to the government telling him to use oil.

A little out of hand isn't it? The power of government.

I say DON'T TREAD ON ME!


now, back to engines

[newt]

This thread has gone some interesting places since started. I must say I have enjoyed them all. In respect to bridges, what would they say if you got your oars out at the bridge. Assuming of course a slack tide. Would they open for you?
Just because you don't have one of those fuel combustion thingys, does not mean you don't have a prop in the water. I am toying with the idea of just an electric trolling motor. Would they give you grief about one of those in the ICW?
Enquiring minds want to know :P

[thistlecap]

I can only speak on my own particular case.  I was bridge tender on the ICW for seven years, tending the Bridge of Lions in St. Augustine, FL, and Crescent Beach Bridge, just south of St. Aug.  There's a hierarchy of control on bridges. Bridges come under the control of the USCG, who in turn give control to the individual state highway departments, who in turn contract the tending jobs out to sub-contractors.  Each level can impose their own restrictions eventhough they come under an umbrella of federal regulations.  With that said, I know of no requirement for mechanical power for passing through a bridge.  We had boats sail through as well as power through.  In a personal case where I lost power just as I approached a bridge, I jumped in the dinghy, caught a docking line from my wife as I rowed past the bow, and pulled the boat through under oars.  As long as the passage can be made with safety and in a manner that doesn't tie up highway traffic being held up by the opening, there should be no problem.  Our problems were basically two---(1) Skippers not contacting the bridge to request an opening, milling around some distance from the bridge or around a marina, missing a scheduled opening and then getting upset with the tender because he hadn't read their minds.  Initiating communications with the bridge by radio or horn is the responsibility of the skipper.  (2) Skippers not approaching close enough to make a prompt passage, especially if bucking the current, or waiting too long to get started once the bridge starts to open, thus delaying the passage and delaying motorists as well.  While openings do pose a safety issue when police, fire trucks or ambulances are trying to respond to a call, the greatest number of complaints are from the general motoring public who are at risk of not getting their latte on the way to work.  Skippers can help tenders by communicating and setting themselves up to accomplish a prompt passage.  It's in the skippers' own interest as well.  The fewer complaints the highway department receives, the less likely they are to impose further restrictions on openings.

[Captain Smollett]

I can only speak on my own particular case.  I was bridge tender on the ICW for seven years,

Grog for that informative post.  Thanks!

[Allan]

Sailing without an engine is a pureist way of sailing but it leaves you shy of a lot of places that you need a motor to access.

I sailed a 44ft yacht around without an engine many years ago and it could be a pain in the butt.

Sailing vessels of years ago didn't have engines but they plyed routes that didn't require them to have an engine or rowers came out to get them.

Many many boats attest to the difficulties of having no engines by the number of shipwrecks around the world.

As some have said before.

Have an engine. You don't have to use it but caught on a lee shore in a wind change one night might mean the difference between having and not having a boat.

There will be a lot of places you will never get to without the engine as things have changed over the years since the old sailing ships.

I bet there would have been a few skippers that would have given their eye teeth for an engine at times.

Allan

[Bluenose]

I really, really need to stop reading these types of posts. Time and time again when talking about engineless sailing some combination of mishaps happens to a sailboat that makes an engine invaluable. In this case (please don't think I am picking on you) it is a demasting.

It is my opinion that the sailor that sails without and engine (or does not use one) is the better sailor. That said, there were probably more shipwrecks back then because of natures ways. Imagine trying to get off a shore with the tide and wind against you. Or being demasted and just being a stones throw away from safety, but being carried by the current. I try to sail engineless, just keeping the darn thing off. If it offends you on the outside of your boat, get a small outboard and keep it in good preserved condition down below as ballast.  ;D
I have a little (6 h) outboard.  If you want it, PM me.

The occurrence of sailboats losing their masts must be so much less frequent than engine failure to make it a moot point. Why would anyone possibly imagine a demasting. Given the choice of relying on my mast or an engine it would be an easy choice.

However, I think the real key is where you want to sail. As Dan said, in our area there are waters where you simply cannot go without an engine. The Cape Cod Canal comes to mind right away. And there's Woods Hole Passage. I've gone through there under sail a couple of times, and it was obviously done that way in the Age of Sail. But the old-timers didn't have to contend with heavy commercial traffic (they'll usually leave you alone if you keep to the edge of the channel) and

I really think it isn't about where you sail but more about how much you want to sail. Dang near everywhere there is water was sailed prior to engines being added to sailboats. The idea "If there is a will there is a way" really works here.

There isn't anything right or wrong about rowing, sailing, motorsailing or floating in an inner tube but let's just try and not justify one choice by discrediting the others. Let's at least give people a chance with the will to find a way.

When I first moved up to the Pacific Northwest (apparently one of those crappy wind areas) and I wanted to start sailing again all anyone could say was to get a good motor. Why couldn't they just say that they felt safer with a motor. Why did it have to be the only choice? The right choice?

[newt]

Dear Bluenose,
My little boat was demasted by the previous owner. Scared his wife so bad that he had to sell the boat. I have stretched the shrouds in a bad blow but  have never lost a mast. A Cat 27 that I had previously owned had also been violently demasted by a previous owner. (that must of been quite a show) I think your post about demasting is inaccurate. I will continue to sail my boat off the slip, but keep the outboard in the back. I am kinda compulsive though. ;D

[mrb]

Actually early boats had engines, they were sometimes called slave, other times just the crew who needed to be kept busy when that pesky wind would not cooperate.  I defy any one who has sailed in the San Juan and gulf islands of Pacific N.W. to say they have not used some mode of propulsion other than sail.  ;)  Not saying it couldn't be done and hasn't been done but to do it you would have to step back to childhood when clock and calender has no meaning.  Now that is sailing :)

[CharlieJ]

you would have to step back to childhood when clock and calender has no meaning.  Now that is sailing :)

Uh- Isn't that now called "Cruising"?

At least that's our plan come July- no schedule, no timetable, no real destination- and who cares what day it is :D

[mrb]

yep ;D

Now I'm confused, that just passed spell check

[Bluenose]

In the end my passion is sailing. I only try to defend sailing without an engine in case there are other who have interest. But it is a pointless debate in our modern day world of boating. So I will stop and leave Sailfar.net in peace.

After all I have less than 4 weeks to launch day and I have big plans for a full season of sailing.

Cheers, Bill
Lopez Island, WA

[mrb]

Bluenose

Very nice.

When I left the N.W. for AR. one of the things that settled me on where I live was the view across lake.  Rainy day with mountains across lake with cut going into bay.  Unlike the west I am able to keep boat in water year round with almost weekly sailings even in winter.  No oysters or crabs.  Ran into a large pod of Orcas of S.E. shore of Lopez once.

Best of luck on your launch, and many happy adventures
melvin

[s/v necessity]

"The occurrence of sailboats losing their masts must be so much less frequent than engine failure to make it a moot point. Why would anyone possibly imagine a demasting. Given the choice of relying on my mast or an engine it would be an easy choice."

   I'm probably better off keeping my pie hole shut, but as usual I wont.  I think Bluenose has a very valid and important point here.  He's probably overstepped a *slight*bit in saying "Why would anyone possibly imagine a demasting."  but not really much.  If you really are worried then you might consider getting a new mast or rigging.

    Demastings must be much MUCH less frequent than engine problems.  How much less?  I dunno, I would guess less than 1 desmasting for every 10 engine failures.  Perhaps even 1 for every 100 or 1000? And that's the crux of his point.  Dead batteries, dirty fuel, empty fueltanks and fouled props are par for the course, and that's just getting started.  Masts shouldn't fail short of catastrophe.  Well I guess engines shouldn't either, but darnit it happens!

    The point of view that "masts never fail" is probably a flawed one.  They do fail.  But, a well designed, well cared for mast and rigging should not come down, and it's my understanding that in practice it is very rare for them to do so. 

[LooseMoose]

It's really a funny subject... and not in the HAHA sort of way this engine-less banter.

I've discovered in the cruising and boat community there is a certain reaction to not having an engine ( or in my case going over to an electric propulsion system) which is akin to upsetting the neighbors way out of proportion to the crime. Some people get really pissed off...

A lot of folks take it as you making the statement that you are a better sailor than they are...Which is not what our engine-less and electric drive brethren are saying...On the other hand I have noticed that people who go without engines often DO become better sailors fairly quickly as their engine-less status is something of a forced advanced sailing class which while being a nice bonus but not the reason behind it all... The end result is that people who sail a lot in all conditions do become better.

They also think that by going engine-less you have a political objective to yank out their engine...Again not the case at all but with some of the reactions I have come accross you'd certainly think so.

Its all made worse because they can wrap up their insecurity ( which is really what it is all about) and foist on you with the "you need an engine to be safe" rants over and over...

These days I never even mention the fact that I have an electric drive in groups of cruisers as what they don;t know won't hurt them (or make them insecure) and I won't have to hear that I'm doomed not being able to motor off a lee shore in a hurricane when my mast has fallen down and other highly unlikely scenarios of woe...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

[Captain Smollett]

    Demastings must be much MUCH less frequent than engine problems.  How much less?  I dunno, I would guess less than 1 desmasting for every 10 engine failures.  Perhaps even 1 for every 100 or 1000?

Kinda depends on WHERE your focus is...if I focus on voyaging sail boats making high latitude blue water passages, I'd guess dismasting is far more frequent.

But, a well designed, well cared for mast and rigging should not come down, and it's my understanding that in practice it is very rare for them to do so. 

Nothing man-made can make this claim...sorry to be pedantic, but no matter how well designed or how well cared-for the rig is, failures can and DO occur.  If not, every boat entering every blue water race would complete the race - after all, those boats are the pinnacle of design and maintenance.

I guess my point is how do we, as individuals, view our boats.  Is it rigged for offshore passage making?  If so, a strong rig is a necessity and an engine may be superfluous.  Coastal hopping?  The use profile is COMPLETELY different, so the acceptable compromises are completely different.

As usual with boats, blanket statements are difficult to stand on their own.  Engineless cruising defines a set a parameters for the cruiser that is different from cruising with an engine; the problems generally arise when the sailor tries to define a set of operational parameters that lie outside what the boat can reasonably deliver.

[Bluenose]

"The occurrence of sailboats losing their masts must be so much less frequent than engine failure to make it a moot point. Why would anyone possibly imagine a demasting. Given the choice of relying on my mast or an engine it would be an easy choice."

   I'm probably better off keeping my pie hole shut, but as usual I wont.  I think Bluenose has a very valid and important point here.  He's probably overstepped a *slight*bit in saying "Why would anyone possibly imagine a demasting."  but not really much.  If you really are worried then you might consider getting a new mast or rigging.

    Demastings must be much MUCH less frequent than engine problems.  How much less?  I dunno, I would guess less than 1 desmasting for every 10 engine failures.  Perhaps even 1 for every 100 or 1000? And that's the crux of his point.  Dead batteries, dirty fuel, empty fueltanks and fouled props are par for the course, and that's just getting started.  Masts shouldn't fail short of catastrophe.  Well I guess engines shouldn't either, but darnit it happens!

    The point of view that "masts never fail" is probably a flawed one.  They do fail.  But, a well designed, well cared for mast and rigging should not come down, and it's my understanding that in practice it is very rare for them to do so. 

You expressed my point in a far more even mannered way than I managed. I didn't completely make up this idea in my head. I had recently read about "emergency" towing in the San Juan Island's and thought about how often masts may fail when I read the early posts in this thread.

Capt Richard J Rodriguez in his blog BitterEnd had a post from the July 4th week in 2007 that added some numbers to my anecdotal experience. Capt Rodriguez is a rescue tug operator that answers Vessel Assist call in the San Juan Islands. Here is an excerpt from his blog.

Here are the top five reasons why over 3,500 boaters have been helped by TowBoatUS and Vessel Assist this week:

       1. General engine failure: 57% of cases
       2. Battery jumps / electrical: 15% of cases
       3. Out of fuel or fuel problems: 10% of cases
       4. Soft Grounding: 10% of cases
       5. Outdrive / Overheating: 8% of cases

It is very hard for me to imagine mast failings being significant to numbers like these. I realize that these weren't all sailboats but still. This is a lot of engine failures.

It's really a funny subject... and not in the HAHA sort of way this engine-less banter.

I've discovered in the cruising and boat community there is a certain reaction to not having an engine ( or in my case going over to an electric propulsion system) which is akin to upsetting the neighbors way out of proportion to the crime. Some people get really pissed off...

A lot of folks take it as you making the statement that you are a better sailor than they are...Which is not what our engine-less and electric drive brethren are saying...On the other hand I have noticed that people who go without engines often DO become better sailors fairly quickly as their engine-less status is something of a forced advanced sailing class which while being a nice bonus but not the reason behind it all... The end result is that people who sail a lot in all conditions do become better.

They also think that by going engine-less you have a political objective to yank out their engine...Again not the case at all but with some of the reactions I have come accross you'd certainly think so.

Its all made worse because they can wrap up their insecurity ( which is really what it is all about) and foist on you with the "you need an engine to be safe" rants over and over...

These days I never even mention the fact that I have an electric drive in groups of cruisers as what they don;t know won't hurt them (or make them insecure) and I won't have to hear that I'm doomed not being able to motor off a lee shore in a hurricane when my mast has fallen down and other highly unlikely scenarios of woe...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

Bob, wow! I am stunned by your insightfullness, honesty and courage making that post. I agree with most of what you say. But I would expand on one thing. Sailing without an engine is not about arrogance. I certainly don't feel superior to any other sailors. In fact it is just the opposite. By my choice of sailing without an engine I have nowhere to hide from my own lack of sailing skills. So much so that I am planning to really work hard this year improving them. Here is my current skills improvement plan (from one of my blog posts).

My Summer Goal - Becoming a More Proficient Sailor

One of the biggest problems that I have due to my love of sailing is that I don't practice enough. When the wind is nice and I am on a great close hauled course, I could sail that way for ever. But, sailing isn't really about nice close hauled courses (well maybe it is, but there are other important skills). It is about maneuvers, like docking, reefing, picking up a mooring, anchoring etc.

I was reminded of this last week when Jay FitzGerald stopped by and made a quick, pointed comment to my blog.

    Hi Bill, it Jay.

    Beautiful boat, I know your harbor and it looks like a lot of fun.

    Too much power in the headsail and not enough in the main. You need a blade jib and a powerful vang.

    Anyway.

It would be easy to pat myself on the back and focus and the first sentence but the wisdom was in the second. In many way I am a bit of a hack. Lacking in some of the required nuances of sailing technique. So my summer goal is to work to develop and enhance my sailing skills.

Specifically

    * Sail Trim - The straight skinny is that I know the basics of sail trim and on a scale of 1 to 10 might give myself a 6. My old boat didn't have much in the way of sail trim controls but Bolero has almost all of them. And my lack of knowledge of these new tools is readily apparent. My improvement plan consists of two parts. First study like heck. There is no shortage of great info on sail trim and I have more than enough references. But second I am thinking about getting some on the water training. For some reason, Lopez Island island is a mecca for great sailors. World champion in this class. Or an America's Cup sailor, or North Sails guru. The list is quite long. So I am hopeful that after a bunch of studying I can coerce, pay or kidnap someone to come on the water with me and set me straight.

    * Casting off the Mooring - There is almost nothing that I really like about my casting off procedure. Neither Bolero or my old Bluenose really liked to point into the wind and they will try to start sailing when the mainsail is about half way up. Currently it is a bit of a circus of raising the main and going aft to untangle the main sheet or correct the tiller to keep the boat into the wind all the while trying not to run over the mooring and then back to the mast to finish raising the mainsail. Then I quickly raise the jib, back wind it to fall off away from the mooring and cast off. Okay it isn't always bad. Sometimes it goes very smooth. But I want a better more controlled procedure. One that works in really light air (which is often worse) and heavy air.

    * Picking up a Mooring - Not surprisingly, I do this as much or more than casting off my mooring (I actually practice this one). I am pretty good at it. But still there are times when I suck at it. And there really is no excuse for doing something so often and doing it poorly. No matter what my success ratio is. So I am going to try to find out why it can get messy and fix my procedure. I am also going to really, really learn about the amount of way Bolero makes under various speeds. Which means I need to learn, without electronics, how fast she is going.

    * Reefing - I think it was Rod Stephens who said something to the effect "that if you can't reef in less than a minute either your system is wrong or your skills are poor". Enough said. My goal is to really streamline my reefing system and skills.

    * Docking - The further down this list we get the worse my skills. I dock three or four times per year. Mostly as a result of launching and hauling out. I have, knock on wood, been pretty successful with this. But there is not way I can attribute this to skill. All of my docking has been into the wind or a beam wind coming off the dock without much boat traffic. So this will also be the year of docking practice. We have plenty of docks situated in every possible orientation to the wind. This will really be boring.

    * Anchoring Under Sail - I have done this twice. There, I said it. No experience at all. Plenty of reading and my plan will be completely stolen from Jay's books. Bolero is really my first boat with a permanent anchor system and the ability to spend the night away from the mooring.

Well this should make for a full summer, and then some, of sailing.

In any case I am failing in my promise to layoff the engineless sailing talk and I want to finalize my reefing system.

Cheers, Bill

[Allan]

Having a boat with an enging is not about feeling insecure these days it is about being safe and being able to go where the engineless boats can not.

Forget the sailors that sail around the world engineless. You do not hear about the amount of near misses in ports where traffic has increased ten fold or the places they were unable to visit or access or the number of times they wished the had an engine.

It is a personal preference not about feeling insecure.

I am a commercial master and have been for the last 30 years. I have seen it all. I will keep my engine thanks.

Allan

[newt]

I keep on reading the above posts wondering if these flames are intentional or they really think they are making a point.  On the off chance that they are sincere, I will offer perhaps a quick insight.
1. This is not a thread about whither engines are good or not. We all use sailboats, hopefully all sail them. Sails good, engines stinky and usually bad.
2. No one ever said demasting happens more than engine failure. Once again, sails good, engines stinky and usually bad.
3. No one ever said electric propulsion is bad. Clean movement quiet movement good, engines stinky and usually bad.
4. Safety however is good. Safety allows me to get home after a rotten day when everything has gone wrong. And safety at sea is built on redundancy. My boat has a. sails b. outboard  c. oars
Now if you want to got without b, or substitute a electric motor for b. I am all for it. I think we all need to get off hydrocarbons eventually. I ride a bike instead of a car. (now thats another discussion we could get into) But don't think that this is a discussion of sails vs engine. That would be in the motorboat groups lists. Remember, we are all sailors here. We like sailing!
Now if the above was a troll- please leave us alone to our dirty, stinky engines err mine having problems starting right now...

[Bluenose]

I keep on reading the above posts wondering if these flames are intentional or they really think they are making a point.  On the off chance that they are sincere, I will offer perhaps a quick insight.
1. This is not a thread about whither engines are good or not. We all use sailboats, hopefully all sail them. Sails good, engines stinky and usually bad.
2. No one ever said demasting happens more than engine failure. Once again, sails good, engines stinky and usually bad.
3. No one ever said electric propulsion is bad. Clean movement quiet movement good, engines stinky and usually bad.
4. Safety however is good. Safety allows me to get home after a rotten day when everything has gone wrong. And safety at sea is built on redundancy. My boat has a. sails b. outboard  c. oars
Now if you want to got without b, or substitute a electric motor for b. I am all for it. I think we all need to get off hydrocarbons eventually. I ride a bike instead of a car. (now thats another discussion we could get into) But don't think that this is a discussion of sails vs engine. That would be in the motorboat groups lists. Remember, we are all sailors here. We like sailing!
Now if the above was a troll- please leave us alone to our dirty, stinky engines err mine having problems starting right now...

With respect to leaving us along to our dirty, stinky engines... consider it done. I  do find your request ironic for a thread titled "Engineless Cruising".

But whatever.

Cheers, Bill
Lopez Island, WA

[CapnK]

Aww, c'mon fellas - no need to get yer rigs out of tune because someone else feels differently about engines and sailboats. ;D

As far as Engines, or Not, maybe its time to remember: Different strokes, for different folks.

I love sailing and being on the water with other boats (sail *and* power (mostly ;))) simply for the fact that out there we all have our freedom of Personal Choice much moreso than we do on land. We can have different craft (even of the same original type), different places to go, and different ways to get there, and all that doesn't really matter to us, on our own boats, on our own journeys. So I'd hate to see any of y'all have hard feeling against each other simply because of the Other Persons Choice about how they do things on *their* boat, and how they think/feel/talk about it.

Personally, as one who has a minimal engine (and who could thus be construed as being in either 'camp' :)), I have read and learned from this thread some new things, and IMO that is just great and is the whole point of our getting together for discussion about these topics we love.

Bill on Bluenose - awesome, great picture. Beautiful boat. She's even prettier on the water!

Great points in many of the responses here. CJ, I wish they still had warping buoys. :) Smollett and I coulda used 'em when we brought his boat into G-town with a balky engine and winds almost on the nose! lol

And now, to be a bit of a pedant myself :P : Those boats in the bluewater races, their rigs are indeed highly engineered and maintained well, BUT you gotta remember that they are designed on the thin edge, and sailed HARD. Those rigs are pared to a bare minimum of what the racers and designers estimate that they can get away with, not infrequently gambling that the rig will stay up just until the finish line is crossed, and - they're betting against the house. Not smart! I don't think that they are the best example of 'typical' rig engineering and usage; seems to me that they'd lie outside the statistical norm both in their design and use, intentionally. AAMOF, it is a testament to the old saw about "Someone looking out for Drunkards and Fools" that as many stay up as long as they do, IMO. :) Shrouds off of midship 'sprits??? WTH will they think of next???

"Normal" or "regular" sailboats should indeed only on the very, very absolutely rarest of occasions suffer a rig failure, especially to the point of a dismasting occurring. Even on 'cheap' sailboats, the rig and associated fittings/gear is usually much stronger than it really needs to be, and so dismastings of regularly maintained and cared-for rigs would be a vanishingly small number. You would be much more likely to get hit by lightning - or a stinkpot - than to suffer a rig/fitting/spar failure on a boat where proper attention has been paid to the rig and its constituent parts.

That said, in my experience and observation, very, very few rigs meet that "regularly maintained and cared for" standard. Most are so neglected that if they were an engine, there would be no way to get them started without an overhaul. :)

Peace, my sailing brethren!

On edit: PS - A round of Grog to all, on me. :)