what KIND of starch do you use when installing a Zodiac's floor?

[Antioch]

OK.. I really would like to put the zodiac together today and test her out on one of the ponds here in Nebraska... but the manual says I need to sprinkle starch in the places where the floor clips in... and not to use talcom powder... Anyone know what kind of starch I need to buy? I called all of my friends last night, and nobody really knew for sure, although one person thought corn starch, the other some sort of fabric starch.
Robin

[Fortis]

That would have to be one of the weirdest things I have ever heard.

Starch?

Obviously to lube up the wear surface a bit, and talc would just gum up into a paste, but so would corn starch. I have used a home made wooden slat insert floor in all my dinghies for years and have never starched my floor. If it seems like an issue I might be tempted to glue some soft fabric strips along the wear/contact points of the floor sections. (A nice heavy weave of pure wool fabric, would be my choice, with just enough felting going on to soften things out.)



Alex.

[Antioch]

I think you must be guilty of the same thing everybody I talked to yesteday on the phone with was... not reading the manual. LOL.. I spent too much money on this thing not to follow the instructions, but it's there in black and white.. 

So you just put the slats in without anything? Never had a problem.. The only dinghy's I've ever had have had inflatable floors.. so this is a new thing for me.. sorry.

Robin

[Fortis]

I'll opt for full disclosure. I own a Bombard dinghy (owned by zodiac, made with their materials and available with the zodiac badge instead, at twice the price), I also own a Sevylor soft packdown dinghy (no rigid transom) (Sevylor is ALSO owned by Zodiac though the materials it is made of are decidedly cheaper, but also lighter, which is what we were after with it). This dinghy has a "rigid" inflatable floor, but I honestly do not think much of it, and fabricated a wooden slat floor that we use whenever we do not need to pack it down to its smallest possible size, We just leave the floor ininflated and fit the floor sections before pumping up the side bladders (which lock everything down). has worked great for over five years, and that is with a vinyl based floor pan.

The only genuine zodiac I am in regular contact with belongs to a friend, but it is one of those hinged micro-folding RIB things with the solid fibreglass hull/keel/floor/thing. Heavy bastage, but hull geomatary speaks for itself. At more than twice the weight of my bombard, my little electric motor will still put it on the plane because of its superior hydrodynamic shape as an RIB.
It winter here at the moment, give me a few months and we will try it with my newly bought but so far unused 76pound thrust high speed electric outboard!!!

Alex.

[Antioch]

It's amazing that I'm really not finding anybody who knows why it would want starch... I've been searching on Google for posts about it too.. nothing.

[maxiSwede]

I definitely agree with Fortis re. starch getting like glue. The only reason for it I could think of would be to make it easier to get the floorboards in place if it´s tight. Good luck anyway!

BTW, I never heard or read of using starch on a dink either...

[s/v Faith]

My vote is for corn starch.

  Talc may be too abrasive if you used it every time.... maybe they are afraid it would lead to chafe over time (I am thinking that you would have to use an awful lot, over a long time...).  Corn starch (a light dusting) would provide a but of dry lubrication, but be easily washed away and not have any real abrasive in it.

  It sure ain't gonna hurt anything, so you might give it a shot.  I am sure it is just used to assist in getting the floorboards in place (a pain on most inflatables).

[CharlieJ]

Very strange that.

I have an inflatable Achilles, with plywood floor and inflatable keel that I've had since the early 80s We towed it all over the Chesapeake bay and have had it in and out of storage since. I never used anything along the edges of the floors, and in fact, you're gonna get water in there no matter what, so whatever you used- corn starch or talc, would just wash away and turn to rocks or mud back around the stern. At least it seems like that to me.

But whatever, if you just want to try the boat, go for it I'd say- you can call the company and get straight dope on Tuesday- in the mean time I seriously doubt one or two uses are gonna do any damage whatsoever- if it does, that dinghy is in trouble. Cause I guarantee you, in 6 months or so, when you pull into some anchorage anxious to get ashore, you're NOT gonna take the time to starch the edges- you're gonna inflate the dink and GO ASHORE!!!

[Fortis]

All that delicate care about TALC being too abrasive...

What about the bucketload of SAND that is going to get on board with inevitable regularity????

[Antioch]

OK.. I'll try the corn starch later.. and post pics and possibly a short video. thanks.

This isn't directly related to the thread, but as far as this voyage to Bermuda goes, I'm likely going to try and tow the zodiac fully inflated, about 15 feet out when motoring, and with it's bow up on the stern pulpit while sailing... seems like it would be tough to inflate and launch on the East Wind.. that and the cats, specifically Lava, might put their claws into it.

Robin

[Antioch]

I think it's specifically where the floor slats meet the fabric that Groupe Zodiac is concerned about... but you're very right about sand..

Robin

All that delicate care about TALC being too abrasive...

What about the bucketload of SAND that is going to get on board with inevitable regularity????

[Oldrig]

I'd vote for corn starch--although I don't own a fancy inflatable (just a tiny Seyvlor that I wouldn't trust for heavy use).

When I used to dive, we'd sprinkle corn starch in the arms and legs of our wetsuits. It helped us get into the skin-tight suits, and it never formed any sort of gummy mixture, or if it did, the stuff dissolved quickly.

So, what the heck. Try it.

--Joe

[s/v Faith]

  While sand might be a real problem for an inflateable, I think you are wise to at least try to do what the manual says.  It might even be called 'good seamanship'.

  This is admittedly a stretch here, but wouldn't you feel stupid in the unlikely event that your new boat had a factory defect, and when you sent it back they said 'You should have read the instructions, the use of talc invalidates the warrantee'... ???

I'm likely going to try and tow the zodiac fully inflated, about 15 feet out when motoring,with it's bow up on the stern pulpit while sailing... seems like it would be tough to inflate and launch on the East Wind..

  I agree it is difficult to inflate a dingy from the cockpit on a small boat.  Some say they do it, and have no trouble.. not I.  As so many have said here, towing is not a good strategy for offshore work. 

  When leaving Lake Worth, Rose and I planned to lash our dink on the foredeck.  It did not work out, so we rolled the dice and towed it.  It worked out ok, but the passage might have been shorter had we found another answer.  Other times we had much more stressful days because we tried to get away with towing it, and fought constantly to get the painter adjusted tot he right Length.

  We had a 'bridle' worked out that had towed the dingy from a line attached to both sides, with a ss ring in that could move and allowed the load to be distributed equally on both sides.  We also had a slightly longer line attached to the bow ring... just in case.  Many make the bridle fast in the center, to 'force' the dingy to track straight.  Just as in towing, this is less then ideal since it puts all the strain on the attachment that is farthest away from the tow.  I can describe this better if you are interested.

  We ended up doing something kind of goofy, which I am sure someone will have some critical comment about.  We would lift it on deck and lash it between the cabin top and the shrouds.  Less then ideal as it added windage, and blocked the view from that side... but it worked for us.

  Here is a picture of this less then ideal set up.  It was taken by Barry on Commander -164 'Winky' as we were leaving Nassau.



  Our future plans include figuring out a dingy that will stow on the foredeck.

 
 

[Antioch]

The manual says to loop the tow line through both D rings under the bow of the zodiac, then cross them, tying them to their opposites on your stern, sort of making an X... The idea the have most of it up on the very large transom area when sailing was my idea, to cut down on drag.  If it gets really rough, the cats will be inside anyway, then I can lash it ahead of the mast on the foredeck, as there's plenty of room there.

I think if I like this zodiac I might buy a more expensive one next year, with that shallow keel and sailing rig...seems almost like you could use it as a coastal lifeboat if you needed to, and sail to shore on it as you tended to your wounds.

Robin

[Captain Smollett]

  We ended up doing something kind of goofy, which I am sure someone will have some critical comment about.  We would lift it on deck and lash it between the cabin top and the shrouds.  Less then ideal as it added windage, and blocked the view from that side... but it worked for us.

Ah, the old 'where to stow the dink' problem.   :)

I've not had too much trouble inflating.  With the new dink, I inflate on the cabin top, behind the mast (under the boom).  I don't inflate the keel until the boat is in the water.  Ideal?  Nah.  Seems to work okay.

I have had some success temporarily stowing on the cabin top.  The old dink (7 ft) could ride there fine fully inflated.  The new one at 9 ft is a touch too big, but I could probably do it in a pinch at least partially deflated.

For whatever reason, I'm not too crazy about stowing on the foredeck.  Just my druthers, I guess, but the thought of bending headsails or doing anchor work with that boat in the way gives me the willies.

I've not towed offshore, but have on inland waters.  I don't care for it too much, but will continue to do so to avoid deflate-pack-unpack-inflate cycles in the same day.

I tried to lift bow up to stern rail a la Alex's method - no go on the Alberg.  Not enough transom, especially with my OB taking up one side.  I may play around with this technique some more, though, to see if I can work something out.

This is truly one of those areas that is a trade-off...ESPECIALLY when the mother ship is a small boat.

[CharlieJ]

Yeah- wish I had the answers. But I don't

I do know I will not tow a dinghy on an ocean passage. We have towed ours on several day passages out in the gulf and it did fine. BUT- if you do tow offshore, you have to start with the idea that that dinghy is totally expendable- if the caca hits the rotator,  the knife edge hits the painter and you wave bye bye to the dinghy.

I'm resigned to us getting a small inflatable, powering it with our 2.2 hp outboard, and rolling it up when we are on passage. I don't mind towing inshore, but definitely don't like it outside the jetties.

[Antioch]

I should point out that I have always hated towing dinghies, but it's more because of the costs that I think it'll be better off riding astern than having Lava sink his claws into it.  As far as the S hitting the fan bit.. you're right, but that's all the more reason to make the dinghy a priority when preparing for heavy weather to set-in..  and in my case, since I don't have a life raft yet, it needs to be ready for boarding in the event of an emergency..

Now that last sentence may cause some concern, so I'll make myself clear.  Now I have felt this way forever,  but the only reason to abandon a sailboat is if it's breaking up and that staying aboard would be more dangerous or perilous, and you absolutely have no alternative.  I've taken on water because of a malfunctioning thru-hull fitting, dealt with it.. had a minor fire aboard due to a short circuiting 12 volt cigarette lighter type power outlet... Never felt like taking the sails down, deploying a sea anchor, and heaving to wouldn't be enough to get through something.. especially out in Hawaii's Molokai Channel.  I would abandon the boat if the keel broke off and she rolled over, or something else that would make the boat unfloatable and could not be repaired quickly.  Being that it takes a minimum of 90 minutes after your EPIRB is activated for search and rescue to be dispatched, meaning that it could be a few hours before a plane comes over head looking for you, I think it's wise to be able to at least ride it out in a strong inflatable until such time that you can be rescued.. not that I expect it.. but I do have a few people who's like to see me again..

I was reading Singlehanded Sailing again last night.. it makes a point in the forward that we shouldn't expect rescue, but almost seems to infer that we're selfish for even wanting to live if we get caught in dire straits.  I disagree with this, as if you take reasonable precautions, have manual backup systems (which I do), and have the knowledge to jury rig your boat to sail without a mast, then I think you've earned the right to sail another day.. I'm kind of irritated thinking about that again..

So yes. pack your extra wooden plugs where you can find them.. wire a few close to your thru-hull fittings, keep a pair of heavy duty rig cutters handy, and read.. keep books on how other people have dealt with these trials.. I guess I've drifted off topic.. sorry, I've been alone all weekend.

Robin

We can't use the Cr word to describe a bad thing? LOL.. it put "poop" in there..  had to change it.. felt silly.

[CharlieJ]

lol- that's why I said "caca"  ;D

[Antioch]

It occurred to me that that was the case when I saw it.. but no way in..Hades (being careful) am I going to have the word "poop" in a sentence in a post, unless it's describing a certain nautical event. LOL

Robin

[Fortis]

The very last boat I worked on "proffessionaly" before becoming a corporate drone a few months ago had one fo the very coolest pushpit setups I have ever met. It was a tiny 24 footer...But the pushpit was shear genius.

Top rail of the pushpit extended back by a couple of feet (about 24-28 inches, I think), with the tubes telescoping out of the top rails running down the side (this is only going to work on fairly slab sided boats, anything too curvy at the back is not a canditate for this one). the bench seat that went across the back of the pushpit can now be unclipped and elevated to the top rail and clipped back into place on this extension. You now have a "table" exttending past the back of your boat. This is very usefull for fishing and especially usefull for screwing around with inflating, deflating and patching your dinghy (you can clip yourself on a very short tther to the backstays and even use both hands to work in roughish conditions. I'm told.)

Better yet, you can clip the two specially made blocks onto the outward corners of this sliding contraption (before sliding it out, I would presume) and use the blocks as hoists for what is about to morth into a set of concealed davits. On the back of each block clip is a loop with a length of steel cable the other end of which clips onto a point on each corosponding backstay (so you now have a buttressed load). Hoist the boat up hard to the bocks, it clears the water nicely even on a small boat. Cleat off and the weight of the dinghy is supported by the backstays and all that lovely tensioned rigging that acts like a shock absorber and deals with loadings that make the weight of a singhy (even one suddenly splashed full of water) fairly trivial.)
With the top rail slid out it is also very easy to get in and out of the boat and down into the dinghy (the boat has a very gently overhanging transom).

For a 24 foot boat it is pretty close to genius, and apparently provides a heck of a work bench when doing projects while at the dock. (I would be more petrified of that than any of the other uses, My tools live in a box, on the floor of the cockpit, and if ti si not in my hand, it is (or should be) in that box. The idea of having all my tools spread out on that table arrangement hanging out off the back like that....Errrk!)

Alex.

P.S This idea will also not be of help to the outboard hanging out over everything crowd.