Kiss principle PT II --what do you think is NOT necessary.........

[s/v Faith]

  There is a thread titled "Kiss principle --what do you think is necessary" where lists of items were prepared of things folks suggested as necessary for a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) boat.

   Maybe the thinking behind KISS ought better to be explored with the list of what we have found NOT to be necessary.

Here are a few items I looked at that I do not believe are necessary.  This is just my current list.  I don't believe that anyone can define KISS for anyone else, and there are arguments for some of these things but it might be helpful to discuss it;

1.) Sat Phone....

2.) SSB or Ham transmitter.  While the idea of communications while underway seems nice, the added cost and complexity, along with the burden of keeping in touch are issues.

3.) Fancy features on a VHF radio.

4.) Microwave, breadmaker, blender, trash compactor, or other condo type appliances.

5.) Hot water heater.

6.) Any device or software on a laptop that makes one boot it up while underway, or rely on it for navigation.  They are just too darn power hungry, and unreliable for practical use on a small boat.  Email, and internet are great on the hook, but are best considered luxuries. 

7.) Chart plotter. 

8.) Electric auto pilot.  While nice to have, they fail far too often to rely on.  Lashing the tiller, sheet to tiller, or windvane is a MUCH better answer then a device with such a high failure rate. 

9.) AIS

10.) Radar.

11.) Instruments.  Other then a compass and a depth sounder, I do not see the need for electronic devices to tell you the wind speed, direction, water temp, etc.

12.) Electric windlass.

13.) Air conditioning.

14.) Spreader lights.

I have some things aboard that violate KISS, and each one brings it's own cost in terms of cost, maintenance, and most importantly TIME.  Things like refrigeration make other things necessary but in the balance have been worth the effort.  I do believe that KISS is a worthwhile principal and worth pursuing.

  What items have YOU used or looked at,  that you decided to live without?

[Manannan]

everything you wrote is right on the principle. Though the kind of cruising has to be determined too. Is the boat your only home ? Are you sailing long distances for the rest of your life....
I found out (the hard way)  that a radar can save your life,
Though electric autopilot have their downside, and are not a necessity I agree, it could be very useful and very enjoyable.
electric windlass of course on a small boat, they seem unnecessary, but here too, I have been in situation where it has same my back and may be the boat...
I believe cruising have to stay simple stupid, yes, but you do not have to suffer either, so everything that can bring a little comfort does not have to be banished.

[maxiSwede]

@ Faith

I agree on all of those except a radar... depending on where you actually sail. Fog is NOT fun. Radar can be a great safety device. AIS would certainly come in handy, but a necessity - No way. the same goes for water makers in my book

[Tim]

My list would be pretty consistent with yours Craig.

Moving from a 19' cruising boat to the Ariel, makes it pretty easy to KISS.

In fact because power consumption is the most limiting factor, I opted for a simple digital sounder instead of the multi-function fish finder on the P19.

Another would be a built in sound system, I have opted for a battery operated multi-band radio for listening pleasure.

My electronics consists of a hand held GPS interfaced with a fixed VHF and a digital depth sounder.

I do think that off-shore cruising would up the ante, but for coastal cruising one doesn't need much.

[Manannan]

My list would be pretty consistent with your Craig.


I do think that off-shore cruising would up the ante, but for coastal cruising one doesn't need much.

Ok, so that no one can define KISS for anyone else, do we agree on that ? There is also a very big difference. If you go sailing for a week-end, or a week even a month and can come back to your home and all its nice conveniences, no problem you can endure to KISS. When you have nothing else than the boat, it is a little bit different my friends. Keep it simple, yes, 100 %. Keep it simple stupid.... do not know.  I have an I Pod, does that agree with the principle ? (after all, I have to recharge the darn thing every 2 days,)  ;)

[s/v Faith]

[
Ok, so that no one can define KISS for anyone else, do we agree on that ?

In the original post I said;

I don't believe that anyone can define KISS for anyone else

 

I have a......, does that agree with the principle ?

Again, it is your boat, and your call.  I would be interested to hear what you have decided you did not need.... not to take issue with what you do.

Tim said;

I do think that off-shore cruising would up the ante, but for coastal cruising one doesn't need much.

  Sure, where you cruise, how you cruise, crew, even the boat you are on will all influence the decisions.... I agree.

[Lynx]

I guess KISS means different things.
A few questions -
Does it cost more in the long run not to have it?
Is your pleasure increased a lot by having it?
Can you afford it?

Is it a needed safety item in YOUR area?

Fridge? Well I just got a 19 liter Waeco fridge. Sure makes it nicer for one person not to have to go to the store or buy smaller items to use every day. A power hog at 3 amps pre hour.

Chart plotter/GPS saves me money on gas and time. I also get locations of gas and food from it. Mine has MX weather which is a nice safety feature when a long aways from things.

Would I have gone cruising without them, SURE!!

[Captain Smollett]

Great List and great topic.

Sorry so long, but here goes.

On the philosophy of what you need vs what you don't need (comfort or real necessity), I think part of it is how you have lived your life ashore.  For example, grad school taught me to live with VERY little in the way of luxuries and how to eat very cheaply.  I was well below the US Poverty Line for Five Years - yet still had some fun and did some things that made very solid memories.  Another time, I lived a year in a 19 foot camper.  I know from personal experience that I don't really need most of the stuff we call "necessity."

"What You Need" is thus purely psychological.  What I am comfortable doing without will make many others cringe, and what I really want to have along will make some sneer in derision.  As you guys have said, it is truly a personal decision.

What IS a necessity to me, then?  Time.  Freedom.  Being Left Alone.

Now, what are the things I choose to do without?  Craig's List (hehe) sums it up pretty good for me.  I do shun refrigeration, however, partly due to the power requirements.

As I've stated before, my "Theoretical Ideal Cruising Boat" would be:

Engine-less
Electric-less
Propane-less

Unfortunately, the first one is out since to do that (at this point anyway), I would also have to cruise wife-less, and that's not an option for me.  The others, she couldn't care less about.

I've toyed with the idea of going head/holding tank-less.  The idea of some of the more "natural" disposal methods talked and read about are appealing - to a point.  However, this is one of those areas where I examine the simple vs convenience trade-off and say "well, having a head+tank makes some sense."  Keep in mind, we are a family of four, and some of the "alternative" methods could get quite labor intensive.

I was until last year GPS-less.  I like the idea of cruising without a GPS for  TON of reasons, not the least of which is to put my thumb in the eye of everyone who says it is a necessity.  Now, I do carry a hand-held Garmin 72, but it does not stay on.  I feel like my sextant skills are "competent" but not exemplary, and ded reckoning/pilotage serves well for coastal cruising.

Definitely don't and won't carry a chartplotter.  Heck, I barely turn the GPS on anyway.

The only VHF I carry is again a hand held.  Don't really have a desire to add a fixed unit.  May someday, but it is WAY WAY down the priority list.  SSB receiver (for weather forecasts) would come before that, and that's not a super high priority, either.

I also don't have, and won't add, a fixed sound system to the boat.  Actually, and I guess I'm in the minority here, I don't really care to listen to music while underway.  I guess it's okay while motoring.  At anchor, maybe, some, a little.  Really, I look to sailing to GET AWAY from the civilization that makes me find it hard to breathe.  I really, really LOVE music, but could find my fix in watching live musicians perform when in port.

On music, though, I will say that I do find an MP3 player and portable 12 V speakers to be a nice (movable, removable) addition.  I listen to some music sometimes while at the boat on the mooring.  We brought such a set-up to Charleston last year, and in a 9 day trip did not turn it on even once.  Did not even hook it up.

No way, no how on tv or dvd player.  Ditto reasons above.  Now, *IF* I carry a laptop, it would be nice to have a dvd capable laptop for the occasional movie in port (my current lappy does not have a dvd player).

My children are home-schooled, which means just about EVERYTHING we do is "schoolwork" in some way, shape or form.  When we are underway, there's learning opportunities everywhere.  Also, they help with the boat handling.  I don't really want them glued to a TV, subjected to the commercialization and materialism that entails.  Ditto commercial radio.  Blue sky, fish, birds, trees, other boats, our boat, fluids (wind, water), etc are, to me (and them) far more fascinating than "artificial" entertainment.

Our boat does not have, and will not have, "running" water.  We use the hand-pump sprayers for pressurized water needs.  We use a hand-pump for the galley sink.  I know a foot pump would be more convenient, but I have not figured out the placement, yet.

My boat was wired for 110 VAC by a previous owner.  I abhor that on both principle and for practical reasons.  When the boat was kept in a marina slip, having 110 VAC keeping the batts topped off was nice, but to me it's just not worth the other hassles it introduces.  Overseas, I'd need transformers and other gadgets to use it anyway.  I will rip all that out SOMEDAY, but this project is not a high priority.

I don't have roller furling and have no desire to add it.  I don't fault those that choose to have roller furling headsails, but it's just not for me/us.  Also, no lazy jacks for the main at the present time.  May add some at some point.  Becky saw some on another boat last year and liked the idea.

I'm going to catch heck for these next two, perhaps, but I don't carry a liferaft.  Probably never will.  They seem like a HUGE cost (initial outlay + maintenance) and have significant storage requirements.

I also don't currently carry an EPIRB.  I probably won't.  Without a liferaft, what good is an EPIRB?  If we're not abandoning the mother boat, we probably should not be setting off the EPIRB.

No LifeSling aboard, either.  At present, anyway.  Been toying with the idea of getting one.  I'd be interested to hear comments from anyone WHO HAS ONE and HAS USED IT in an emergency situation.

No Radar with no desire to add it, again, due to cost and powering requirements.  As for sailing in Fog, I've done that (with no GPS...visibility was about 100 ft, so I know it can be worse).

I'll probably think of more later, but that's the gist of the big stuff.

[Godot]

Not a simple question.  Not simple at all.  If you went to the barest minimum, what you need is shelter, water, food, and a way to move your boat.  Even maps and a compass can be considered luxuries (I believe some folks have crossed oceans without either one ... crazy at it may seem to us).

To even begin to answer this I think I need to categorize the sailing.  For me, I am almost always short or single handed.  Forgive all the commentary.  It is in my nature.

Object	Day Sailing	Coastal Cruising	Long Distance Off Shore	Comments
Sat Phone	No	No	No	If I had folks tracking my progress back home I would need something.  I'd rather buy a sat phone than have an unnecessary search and rescue started.  Plus, I really don't want to cause any additional stress to loved ones.  Ah, the price of family.  Perhaps the new Spot Satellite tracker would suffice.  It would certainly be cheaper.
Fancy features on a VHF radio	No	No	no	I assume you mean something in addition to DSC? I don't even know if you can still buy a non DSC radio anymore.
Microwave, breadmaker, blender, trash compactor, or other condo type appliances	No	No	No	Good grief, is this a joke?  Seriously, though, some small microwaves are becoming practical for small boats, I'm told.  Certainly not a necessity, unless you where living at a dock and not going anyplace (at which point your boat becomes a floating condo).
Hot water heater	No	No	No	Again, only if living at a dock.  If I had a shower (which I don't)
Any device or software on a laptop that makes one boot it up while underway, or rely on it for navigation.	No	No	No	Laptops are great tools; but are too fragile and power hungry to take a necessary spot on most small boats.
Chart plotter	No	No	No	I like paper charts.  Besides, you can't trust electronics
Electric auto pilot	No	Yes	No	Having sailed single handed up and down the Chesapeake without an autopilot, I can tell you it is tiring.  For long offshore trips a windvane would be better.  Some type of self steering is necessary, in my book, for anything more than day sails or very short cruises
AIS	No	Maybe	Yes	As a single hander I would need to do whatever I can to supplement the necessarily shoddy watchkeeping that would occur on a long passage (offshore or especially coastal).  This is cheaper and less prone to failure than radar.  Uses considerably less electricity, too.  Would go without if it didn't exist; but prudent since it does exist.
Radar	No	No	No	I would probably change this to necessary if I sailed in areas that tend to be often socked in with fog.  Sailing in fog is the scariest thing I have done.
Instruments.  Other then a compass and a depth sounder	No	No	No	A handheld wind speed meter would be nice for story telling purposes.
Electric windlass	No	No	No	For my small boat, never.  If I was far afield a manual windlass might come in handy.  Not necessary, though (yay for small boats!)
Air conditioning	No	No	No	In a small boat only really practical if you have a generator (yuck) or are tied to shore.  For me, certainly not a necessity.  If my wife comes along, the rules might change (the price of marriage)
Spreader lights	No	No	No	Never used them.  I guess they would be handy for changing headsails or something; but then you would lose your night vision.
Spot	No	No	Yes	Ah, finally.  A reasonably priced satellite tracking tool.  Not necessary for me; but family?  Again, that price of family.
Roller Furling	No	No	No	It would be nice.  If I bought a boat that came with roller furling/reefing I would enjoy it.  I doubt I'd go out of my way to install it though.  Definitely not Necessary.
GPS	No	Yes	Yes	GPSes are cheap (handheld) now-a-days, very useful, a fun to play with.  If you couldn't get one for sub $150 I'd probably say Unnecessary; but the price/utility ratio pushes this into my must have list.  Just a simple GPS, though.  Anything more is luxury. (If I where to head off shore I guess it would be prudent to learn celestial.  Man, those sextants are expensive, though)
Pressure Water	No	No	No	If my wife was aboard she would appreciate it.  But then she would probably run the tanks dry the first night.  Not necessary.

[Captain Smollett]

Even maps and a compass can be considered luxuries (I believe some folks have crossed oceans without either one ... crazy at it may seem to us).

Very true - the Polynesians navigated without either for centuries - long crossings on dug-out canoe and similar "lightweight" craft.

Seamanship of the highest order, and we could learn a LOT from them and their KISS-y ways.

By the way, on another note, could we adopt Keep It Simple, Sailor, rather than Stupid for our purposes? 

Hey, maybe it's just semantics, but I think it is a fair distinction and one that may help to emphasize that if Sailor A chooses to outfit his boat one way, perhaps against the mainstream, it's not really "stupid."

Just a thought.

[maxiSwede]

By the way, on another note, could we adopt Keep It Simple, Sailor, rather than Stupid for our purposes? 

Hey, maybe it's just semantics, but I think it is a fair distinction and one that may help to emphasize that if Sailor A chooses to outfit his boat one way, perhaps against the mainstream, it's not really "stupid."

Just a thought.

I like that  ;D grog on you!

[Manannan]

Just want to remind you that if they had the choice, (Polynesians, Vikings and the rest) they would have chosen to have maps and compass. On long crossings anyway.  Do not forget how many of them probably got lost at sea. If we go this route, sails could be considered luxury....  ;) 
Ok.. lashes for me I guess  ;D   But I agree on one thing definitely : less drop the stupid !!

[Frank]

I'm in agreement with Craigs list.Had a chartplotter..didn't use.Much prefer charts on the bridgedeck for the 'bigger picture'.Hate anything that uses power...but really like an autohelm...between breakdowns (Craig IS correct..they fail often) I use a $99 garmin..ain't fancy but will show ya where you are (I couldn't even do a waypoint till last march) I like the cheapy butane stoves and the old force 10 rd BBQ's. I still like hank on sails. I did buy the ST40 combo...cheap/small and works (depth/knotmeter/log and water temp) I use solar yard lights at night (I know..not legal) I don't even use ice, but have a small engel (.7amp) when wanting a treat.Still like a reefing jib..saves $$ and space.Use those cheapy crank-up flashlights a lot.great on the dingy and onboard.

[Tim]

Great detailed list Adam about the only thing I disagree with is where you say that a handheld windmeter would be good for storytelling, I think the lack of one allows for a greater range  ;) ;D

[Artful]

I would say that if you were in Canadian waters and stopped by the coast guard, and didn't have adequate charts, you would have some trouble on your hands.  As for no dingy, especially with a family on board, not a good plan, unless you really don't leave the dock. as the word says KISS, keep it simple stupid, it goes with out saying somethings are safety related.  Its okay to be home schooled, but when does the street smart training start, in order to fit in with the general public. 

[Captain Smollett]

Its okay to be home schooled,

Thanks for your approval.   ;)

but when does the street smart training start, in order to fit in with the general public. 

If you are talking about social development, you might be interested to know that recent research has shown that home schooled children demonstrate HIGHER social development than US Public School children.  This research was done by a group who set out to prove the opposite conventional wisdom, by the way.  Yes, I've got published, refereed journal citations to back that statement up, but I'll have to look them up.  PM me if you are interested.

Choosing to home school, like choosing to sail far on a small boat, often invites criticism.  I guess any time we choose to swim against the current, either with our boats in particular or with our lives in general, others find it necessary to point out the error of our ways.

This sort of thing is, I believe, exactly what this thread is about.

[Manannan]

Ok, what I see and read here, is that everybody agree on the principle and I guess it is why we are on this site isn't it ?
For the rest, there is no rules to tell someone how to live his life, raise his kids or outfit his boat. What I see coming up is endless polemics about what is a KISS ''way of life'' or not. In general, I do not like rules, and do not like being a sheep... We still have the right to debate, if we keep an open mind and respect someone else ideas and way of life.

[Captain Smollett]

What I see coming up is endless polemics about what is a KISS ''way of life'' or not.

Interesting.  What I see for the most part is each of us answering the question that was asked:

"What is KISS for me, on MY boat."

I think it is fair to offer some explanation as to WHY these decisions were reached, and maybe to defend them just a little if someone disagrees.  That's how we all learn from each other - someone may well offer something new or a new way to look at things.

I see a distinct line, however, when sentences contain phrases like:

"What you should do/have"
"X is stupid"
"Everyone should"
"How can you not"

and other such absolutes that infringe on each charting their own course (aboard or in life).

I believe that in many cases, such opinions of self-superiority (assuming one has all the answers) indicate a closed mind.  There are enough sailing sites populated by folks with that attitude out there.

One thing that unites the members of this board is not only our view on "small boats," but also our method of solving problems.  This is very much an "engineering style" board.  Ideas are floated in a freestyle or brainstorming fashion, some are tried, some things fail, improvements are made, tried again.  There's no fear of failure or admitting "I was wrong on that" or "I tried it and it did not work" here.

I don't think anyone here assumes they have all the answers for everything.  Discussions like this one ("what do YOU consider KISS?") help re-organize, flesh-out and consolidate such 'free-form' discussions that happen in various places on the site.

My Two Cents.

[Fortis]

Having considered this question carefully, I have decided to limit myself to only three nubile, bikinni-clad, swimwear models on the foredeck...provided at least two of them are redheads.

I feel this is a sufficient sacrifice to the principle.

[Tim]

Having considered this question carefully, I have decided to limit myself to only three nubile, bikinni-clad, swimwear models on the foredeck...provided at least two of them are redheads.

I feel this is a sufficient sacrifice to the principle.

Ahh true ;), under those conditions knowing where you are, how fast your going, or where your going is of little importance ;D