The original Scoot discussion...

[Pappy Jack]

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers about the lawyer thing but we all know what kind of a litigious country we live in ::) and thought that it might be a good idea to C.Y.A. If nobody objects, I could ask a lawyer friend of mine what he thinks. For what its worth, I hate the idea of having to asking a lawyer to... It's the Libertarian in me :D.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

[Lynx]

Pappa Jack - I think your point is valid. Most of us cannot or do not want to pay for something like this. If there is some paperwork saying the event organizers are not liable for anything would be better than nothing. The laws of the Sea are a bit old and strange to most of us.

A proper "Pappa" comment.

[CapnK]

Hiya Pappy -

No probs! I'm with ya. In fact, I jokingly refer to my boat as "my own floating Colorado"* ;D, and don't believe in lawyers, myself. But I do know that some of them are out there, circling, just looking fer something to stick their overly litigious teeth into...  ::)

I do have a friend who lawyers for a living, and so I know that not all of 'em are bad. :D I fix his computers, do his website. I've been/will be talking to him more, and Yes, there will probably need to be some kind of statement of release signed by folks who sail in the Scoot. A necessary evil, in this day and age. It will, I imagine, release everyone from everything, confirming and enforcing the fact that this is an event of a solitary nature, done collectively, simply for fun, and solely by and of individual choice and responsibility.

It's funny, but sad, that the lawyers make the laws which require more lawyers to get into court over, to make new laws, to... And that's why I maintain that the only vote common folk have in the USA anymore that *really* counts any more is up there in the Jury box*.

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On to more pleasant topics! :)

Dan - I think we should handicap on total waterline length.

For you, that would include the waterline of those training hulls that stick out on the side of yer boat.

You better sail fast, sonny! ;D :P

Just pulling Dan's third leg, of course. No handicaps. Just get there, finish "the course" safe and sound, and have fun doing it. That's the whole point. :)

Now, if Frank was to sail in it, and maybe David Old Jersey, we might have to introduce some type of a Beer/Booze Handicap! ;D

I'm with Adam - anybody who wants to make it anything more than a brag, go for it. Me, I'm just looking forward to meeting more of y'all, and then - the days offshore. :D

Now, about Start times. What I think about that is this: I'll be up there, wherever everyone else is. By then, we'll have said "We start at such-n-such a time." I think that so long as anyone gets to the start place, and doesn't leave *before* the start time, that's good enough.

I will be aware of how long it takes me, and I think it'd be fun to sail away from the line with several of y'all, but if it suits someone elses needs or style to start an hour or a day later for whatever reason they deem sufficient, then that's fine with me. So I don't think we need to get formal and officious about recording times, start or finish. I'll write my own down, or take a pic of my GPS at the start and finish. That'll do for me. :)

If a group of Scooters wants to jockey up to the line together, and try to cross it 1/2 second after the Start time while stealing somebody else's wind :D, I say go for it. I might join in on that. But for the overall purpose I think that "We'll start on this day at this time or after" is probably good enough. Thoughts? Opinions?

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*"floating Colorado" - anyone who didn't get this reference and wants to, should read "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand :)

*This is WAY off topic, but IMO important to US citizens. If anyone wants to discuss it, we can start another thread. But here is some info in brief that I think is too important to let the opportunity slide to tell others about it:
See, read, understand FIJA.org - know your duty, your rights, and why you're there, *before* you go. Don't tell the Judge that you know what you know about your Rights and power as a Jurist, though - because if you do - they'll put you under a Court Order to shut you up, so that you won't tell the other jurists.
I'm kidding, right??? Wouldn't that be a miscarriage of Justice?
No. I know this because - It happened to me, and boy was that a shocker and an eye opener, as well as being infinitely saddening...

[Tim]

Glad to see your not scared by some darn lawyers, there easy to deal with, just toss 'em in the drink and cannibalism will take over! ;D

Thanks for the fija.org site, very informative

[CapnK]

LOL,Tim.;D

I know that they aren't all bad.

How's the joke go - 99% of lawyers give all the others a bad reputation?

;D ;D ;D (told to me by a lawyer! lol)

[Tim]

What's funny is that I was on my way to being one,.......then I went sailing and found my TRUE calling  ;D

[Frank]

    Kurt...what's with the beer thing? rum good man...it must be RUM
Quote.."Now,if Frank was to sail in it, and maybe David Old Jersey,we might have to introduce some type of a Beer/Booze Handicap!";D,...remember...getting there IS the fun

[Godot]

Now, about Start times. What I think about that is this: I'll be up there, wherever everyone else is. By then, we'll have said "We start at such-n-such a time." I think that so long as anyone gets to the start place, and doesn't leave *before* the start time, that's good enough.

I will be aware of how long it takes me, and I think it'd be fun to sail away from the line with several of y'all, but if it suits someone elses needs or style to start an hour or a day later for whatever reason they deem sufficient, then that's fine with me. So I don't think we need to get formal and officious about recording times, start or finish. I'll write my own down, or take a pic of my GPS at the start and finish. That'll do for me. :)

If a group of Scooters wants to jockey up to the line together, and try to cross it 1/2 second after the Start time while stealing somebody else's wind :D, I say go for it. I might join in on that. But for the overall purpose I think that "We'll start on this day at this time or after" is probably good enough. Thoughts? Opinions?

My thought... the start time is the start time.  We should start the clock then.  If half the fleet is tied up to a dock too hung over to start, then they will perhaps finish later with a greater overall time; but otherwise there is no problem.  Weather delays the fleet and no one starts for five days?  Well, the clock would then indicate a bunch of REALLY long trip times.  Someone takes longer to get to the start line than expected and starts a week late?  Ok.  See you when you get there.  Sorry about the long finish time.

The start time  is one of the few things we can really control.  Without it folks could make the trip six months later, cross in great time, and take the honor for the fastest time.  I don't like that.  While this is an individual challenge, it is also a community event.  (Of course, I'm not trying to discourage doing the course six months later; just that you would be experiencing a whole different set of conditions and wouldn't be playing with the rest of us).

I think there should be some sort of deadline for crossing the start line.  Nothing too tight or difficult.  Just something so that we can eventually say that all starters have finished.  Maybe a start before the last previous boat finishes?  Maybe a month?  Something just to bracket when the event is.

This is not to encourage going during a bad weather window.  Nope.  That is an advantage to it NOT being a real race.  Sure, times may vary widely; but it really doesn't matter.  Seamanship first. 

Actually, hmm, maybe there is an advantage to keeping a fleet clock as well as individual passage clocks.  Maybe we'll give out an award (might just be a toast at a bar ... no plans on trophies or anything) for fastest overall time and fastest individual time.  Lets just try and set it up so that everyone should leave somewhere around the general date.  I really would like this to be a group as well as an individual event.

BTW... if we keep the prizes simple and cheap (or better free ... just having an "official" Scoot title might be enough), we can get really creative with some if it.  Fastest time; first to arrive; smallest boat; best demonstration of the SailFar spirit; etc...  Likely half the "awards" would be invented at the finish to cover unexpected events.  Could be fun.

[TJim]

Nah it's too darn sweet, kinda like kool-aid.....It must be Anejo...Tequila Jim

[David_Old_Jersey]

Now, about Start times. What I think about that is this: I'll be up there, wherever everyone else is. By then, we'll have said "We start at such-n-such a time." I think that so long as anyone gets to the start place, and doesn't leave *before* the start time, that's good enough.

I will be aware of how long it takes me, and I think it'd be fun to sail away from the line with several of y'all, but if it suits someone elses needs or style to start an hour or a day later for whatever reason they deem sufficient, then that's fine with me. So I don't think we need to get formal and officious about recording times, start or finish. I'll write my own down, or take a pic of my GPS at the start and finish. That'll do for me. :)

If a group of Scooters wants to jockey up to the line together, and try to cross it 1/2 second after the Start time while stealing somebody else's wind :D, I say go for it. I might join in on that. But for the overall purpose I think that "We'll start on this day at this time or after" is probably good enough. Thoughts? Opinions?

I think simply setting a day (and an hour) for kick off - and then leaving the exact details down to the participants (nearer the time) is the way to go - some may want to do the starting line thing (and then they get to organise it  ;D) and others will be happier to start from the dock at the appointed hour (or later for whatever reasons - last minute technical problem. or hangover!)......having flexibility designed in as part of the plan means no one will feel they have "Missed out" or have become second class by not crossing a line in the water to the sound of a gun at a certain hour - after maybe 2 years preparation.....and IMO would encourage folk to sign up in the first place by making it as informal / pressure free as possible - albeit still with options for those who want them to be part of a more usual "race" style start.

I don't actually see a problem with the start date being missed by everyone due to bad weather! - even a week! The record books may look a bit strange some years, but IMO irrelevent - it's about participating in both the event and the build up / preparation plus the Challenge of simply finishing.

I see no problem with the start and finish time being a Trust thing - the only person someone would be cheating is themselves.......as after all even claiming fastest time is never really going to mean anything to anyone else - even within that Scoot year. Being the quickest may be nice  ;D, but is not the object (it not being a "race" against anyone else).....so no time pressure on anyone to set off from "the Scoot" at the appointed hour.  In any event the boats (and Sailors) are likely to be so diverse that comparing times would be meaningless, with or without a handicap system.....folk will know who they are "Competing" against within the Fleet - no need to be a formal thing.

http://www.thescoot.com/

[Lynx]

Date change?

I feel a bit out of place doing this as I more than likely not be doing the Scoot, but, if you change the date to Mid Nov to early Dec, some of those who start could make it down to the end of the Carib to avoid the "H" season.

You would also have warmer waters and less people.

Just a thought.

Maybe the next Scoot?

[AdriftAtSea]

The problem with November/December is that some of us have families...and they want us around for things like Thanksgiving/Christmas.  However, I'd say we need to look at the pilot charts and give this some consideration in any case. :)

[Captain Smollett]

Just pulling Dan's third leg, of course.

:o :o :o :o

On Nov/Dec as an event date:  Didn't you guys look at that already and find the frequency of NE-er's a bit higher and reaching farther South?

Pilot Chart for Nov (0-1% gales):



and Dec (0-1% gales reported):



Looks pretty good, really...

Maybe I'm thinking of a conversation on a different topic....

{On Edit: Added Chart images}

[AdriftAtSea]

Northeast winds, as long as their not in the form of Nor'Easter... would be better than southerly winds... makes it a nice run or broad reach. :)

[Pappy Jack]

Ahoy,

Well, I got a hold of my lawyer friend(He and the Mrs. are down in Cabo for a week). Anyway, he said that any thing we do in this "society  :'(" can lead to a law suite. But, he also said that our risk would be small due to the fact that our "event" is so low key, no funding,etc. and that we shouldn't worry... too much.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack 

[CapnK]

Gulf Stream + N/NE winds (of any strength) = Not Good.

It takes surprisingly little contrary wind to make that saltwater river out there get nasty, quick like.

Maybe it's the scale of the wind, moreso than the strength - even 5-10 knots, spread across the miles of open ocean, against the waves, against the current... a cumulative effect perhaps.

(And then when you have both scale and strength, of course... Katie bar the doors!).

Nope, don't wanna be there if you can at all help it, when there's northerlies...

Good to hear about the lawyers, Pappy. :)

[AdriftAtSea]

darn...knew i was forgetting somethin.... :) pesky gulf stream...

[Auspicious]

Does anyone have direct personal experience with the Gulf Stream in northerly winds? I've been through experiences that are supposed to be awful to find they aren't really so bad. I now question common knowledge and other examples of "everyone knows."

So anyone out there "been there, done that?"

sail fast, dave

[AdriftAtSea]

I've seen what happened to a couple of different boats that went and crossed and got caught by a northerly wind.  Not pretty.

[Captain Smollett]

I now question common knowledge and other examples of "everyone knows."

I cannot comment from personal experience about the Stream in northerly winds, but Grog for that statement.