Centerboard Boats: swing keel = no blue water?

[ronc98]

Reading over the different boards it appears that the general opinion there is that swing keel boats make very poor blue water boats?  some of the same people feel that a boat smaller then 50 feet also makes a crappy blue water boat, so I do not take much merit in their opinion. 

I know there are people on this board that sail swing keel boats in big water.   Since you are the guys doing it and have the experience I am interested in your opinions.   

[Captain Smollett]

Seems to me there have been quite a few swing keel boats make successful blue water passages.

Everything on a boat is a compromise.  This is especially true on small boats.  Swing keels have certain advantages and distinct disadvantages; permanent keels likewise.  On balance, I think it's fair to say that for true blue water passagemaking, the permanent keeler is "more advantageous" than a swing keeler, but that's not to say that properly designed and implemented, a swing keel boat is not a "blue water boat."

The term 'blue water boat" gets bandied about quite a bit.  As has been stated here quite a bit lately, the skipper/crew is MUCH more of a factor than minutia in boat design.  What makes a "blue water boat" largely boils down to margin of safety and what are you, the sailor on said boat, comfortable with - what risks would YOU take to make a passage on any given boat?

[AdriftAtSea]

I'd agree with Capn Smollett.

IMHO, the main problem with swing keel boats is their ability to lock the swing keel in place in the case of a knockdown.  That is the major safety concern, since, if the keel retracts in a knockdown or capsize, it could seriously damage the keel trunk and make a bad situation very much worse.

In general, boats are tougher than the crew.  There was a video posted that was found in "Little Murka".  Little Murka was Dom Mee's 14' kite-powered boat, in which he tried crossing the Atlantic a couple years back.  He abandoned ship after getting hammered by the remnants of FIVE HURRICANES.  Little Murka made it to Ireland without him...even after all that abuse.

[TJim]

I had a Lyle Hess Balboa 26 swing keel.....Great day sailer...but....I wouldn't want her in any real bad weather.   The big reason, is that I don't trust that swing keel not to start swinging becuz of some equipment failure.....It could knock a big hole in your boat really quick....TJim

[Marc]

It is possible for me to "lock" my keel in place with a 3/8 bolt, but before the scoot I am planning on a 5/8 bolt for that purpose.  Marc

[s/v Faith]

Years ago, pre-Faith (PF) a good friend of mine offered me his Chrysler 22.

  I looked at it and considered it hard, it was a generous offer that I eventually declined.  It was a great little trailer sailor that was light enough to be easily pulled and launched while sailing well.

  The one down side of that boat was the swing keel pivot pins... which Hess had placed below the waterline so when they leaked they could flood the boat. (not Lyle, but his son.. his name escapes me{on edit; it was not Hess, but Halsey Herreshoff, Nathaniel's son} ) The other thing this boat had issue with was keel lift cable.  It was a smallish ss cable controlled by a trailer type wench.  It was easy for a new crew member to crank the wench hard enough to snap the cable at the attachment point.

  I once dove my friends boat...in a slip with nothing but mud under the hull... and spent an hour or so digging in the mud to reattach the cable.

  Not a big deal, but it got me thinking... what if that cable broke off shore?  What if you were in swells and pitching back and forth?  I can picture the keel swinging back and forth and striking the stops until something VERY bad happened.

  I think it is just this fear that drives many of the 'opinions' about these boats.  I think your comparison is RIGHT ON;

some of the same people feel that a boat smaller then 50 feet also makes a crappy blue water boat, so I do not take much merit in their opinion.

Most boats, especially small boats, need some consideration before they go cruising, especially off shore.  Some are simply not suited to crossing oceans, but I believe that the 'majority' opinions about their safety are not well founded.

  I agree with he prior posters, and think Dan had a very good point about being able to secure the keel in the down position... that was the part I struggled to figure out with the C-22.

  If you can figure this one out, and then look at the entire boat as the system it is... I see no reason a swing keel would preclude taking a boat offshore.  Ultimately it all boils down to you, as the Captain, gathering info, prepairing your boat and making your choices...

  Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[ronc98]

Thanks for all the input. 

On my C-26 the keel pins are not exposed to the inside of the boat.  They are captured with two huge shoes that are bolted to the hull.  The bottom profile of the c-26 is alot different then the c-22.  It almost looks like a hybrid keel, about 1400 lbs off the ballast is located around the keel trunk then the keel blade itself is around 700 lbs.   I often sail without the keel down, only when the wind gets above 15 knots does it really seem to make a difference with reducing weather helm.   

So I am not so affraid of loosing the keel and sinking the boat, I am more concerned about the keel pooping a hole in the trunk as it swings. 

Great idea with the keel locking bolt.  That might not be such a hard thing to do.   I guess if there is enough strength in the trunk and the locking bolt that pretty much negates that problem.

[ronc98]

Marc, when your keel is bolted down is it only lock in one place?   I assume this can be bolted down from the inside of the boat while underway?

What type of boat do you have again perhaps I can google that setup.

I love this site, Everyone here reasons through things instead of the typical "This is how it is poop"

[Lynx]

Swing dagger boards work fine if holes are well above water line. I crossed with a MAcGregor 25 with a swing keel. He had water conning in all the time. A real pain.

Due to the location of the keel locking bolt. and the problem with only 2 blots holding the keel. I would not suggest it for Blue Water. Coastal is fine.

[Pappy Jack]

If you have a swing keel or keel center board you might want to take it apart to inspect the boards pivot pin. I did this last year to my 30 year old Ericson 25 and found that it was in very good condition. The thing is, I wouldn't have know this if I hadn't taken it apart ;). This is something you might to do before doing "The Scoot" ;D.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

[ronc98]

My winter project is going to be dropping it and checking out the pin.  While I am at it I will fit a Keel lock of some sort in the trunk.

Who knows I might have a fixed keel by scoot time.   

[ronc98]

At this point the scoot is a bit out of my comfort zone.  I have enough time to make that doable.   A little more heavy weather sailing in the great lakes will get me there in a hurry.  With the crappy weather patterns we have had this summer that should not be so hard.

[Pappy Jack]

Hi Ron,

I know what you mean by "comfort zone". To over come this, I plan to do a week or so of sailing on the Great Lakes next summer. I've sailed up there before but it was more day sailing than anything. Next time I'll try to do more of a mini-scoot if that is possible what with all the land and boat traffic that can get in your way ::).

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

[ronc98]

I have the same plan.  Actually I was thinking of doing a few week long trips at the great lakes.  I am only about 2 hours from Sandusky so it is a rather easy trip for me. 

Where do you plan on going and what do you have in mind?

I am thinking of sailing From the West side of Erie to the east and back next year.  This year I am going to try and spend as many long weekends as I can.

[sailorflo]

RE; Centerboard,Ive sailed both centerboard,Full keel,full keel with a cutaway forefoot, ect,,, Not that I know it all But I can say the way that I feel on the issue. Our  Tartan 37 has a swing keel and sails to wind like a dream, But if I had to pick one Id have to say that Off Shore I would choose the more comfortable ride off a full keel, But as said earlier the capt @ crew have alot to do with any off shore safty, |||They say you can cross the pacific in a bath tube if you pick the weather right

[Marc]

My locking bolt is above my pivot bolt  and a little aft, the po never used and  I discovered what it actually was after removing the keel and inspecting the the trunk.  I thought it was a great find!  Marc

[Pappy Jack]

Hi Ron,

Good question. One choice is Bayfield,Ws. to Isle Royale and back or someplace in Door County,Ws. to someplace in Lake Huron and back. Time will tell. A lot has to do with my job cleaning power plants. Work slows down in the summer and winter but one never knows. Like you, I plan to do extended weekend sails this summer but I don't think that will amount to much...I can't really stretch my sailing legs on the lake that I sail on ::).
Twenty some years ago I spent about two months, on my 23' Venture of Newport, sailing around the Keys and The Everglades but again, that was more like daysailing.
I could see some of us in Midwest getting together next summer and doing a mini Scoot. Any ideas?

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

[Marc]

I might be interested in a mini soot next summer, perhaps on lake michigan.  Marc

[Pappy Jack]

Hi Marc,

Sounds like a date ;D. We can work out the details later. I sent you an email via the back door.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

[ChrisandVero]

I would be interested in participating in a Great Lakes mini-scoot next summer as well. Bayfield to Isle Royal has been on my 'daydream list' for a couple of years now. But charts make Lake Michigan look good too.