Prepping my Seafarer 24

[Godot]

It's balancing simplicity with convenience. 

I almost always single hand.  I've never used a roller furling gear.  But after my last trip where I was trying to find a sail combination that would suit the weather, I was up and back from the foredeck probably a half dozen times in an hour and a half or so.  The weather was up.  The waves where about three feet, which doesn't sound like much; but they very close and very steep, and the foredeck was covered in spray, and every few minutes I'd end up crashing through an extra large wave.  I was very tired, cold, and wet after having made very little progress. 

Also, one roller reefing system can take the place of several sails.  Less gear, more available space.  It might even be cheaper.

And my biggest frustration is anchoring the boat with a big wet pile of dacron in the way. 

I've been resisting the idea; but let me tell you that roller furling is looking more and more attractive to me.

Your complaint about too much trouble, sometimes serious trouble, holds just as true for the motor.  Folks have sailed without motors for almost forever.  Why change?  After all, we are sailing!  The answer, of course, is that for most of us, the convenience of having a motor outways the simplicity of not having one.

It's a personal choice, as always. 

[Capt. Tony]

Adam
As you have found out opinions vary on the furler/no furler debate.  Both 'sides' have substantially valid and sound arguments.  Systems can fail and if they fail at the wrong time...  Conversly, convenience and security can be worth every cent.  Seeing the future would be much less maddening than trying to guess ( and prepare for ) future events.   Do what you want or think best for you and your boat.  If you find in the future it doesn't work for you than change it after your experience. 

We often give advice to others hoping to save them from the perils of our own choices.  That is good, but, really only applies to our experiences and others that share experiences similar to ours. 

Having said that, This is the plan of attack I've opted for on our Pearson Ariel.  Upon the advice of my sail maker (Joe Cooper at Hood) we went with a 130% headsail because the profurl system we have can keep an acceptable (subjuctive) sail shape with this size when reefed down to around 80%.  Beyond that...useless.  For lightair we're going with a multi purpose genoa or an asymetrical spinaker.  I am not a racer but I do understand the need for speed on occation and the importance of sail shape. 

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, I have never had this boat in the water!  Fool hearty?  Maybe.  But that's were the advice of others comes in ;D  I'm confident it will work just fine, but, if I find it doesn't...we'll just change it.

Thanks for  starting yet another great thread on this forum and best to you with your prep work for the scoot!

[Tim]

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, I have never had this boat in the water!  Fool hearty?  Maybe.  But that's were the advice of others comes in ;D  I'm confident it will work just fine, but, if I find it doesn't...we'll just change it.

Oh but a beauty she will be when she's done Tony.

[CharlieJ]

Just finished putting together a ProFurl system for a Pearson Vangard I'm working on. Definitely looks and seems to be a top quaility piece of equipment, and was recommended to the owner by Graham Byrnes of B and B Yacht Designs. He's had mucho offshore experience, having sailed round the world at least once.

For us, we still hank on, and will for the foreseeable future- at least til I get too old to go forward. Of course by then Laura will probably just do it for us ;D

We''ll have a three sail inventory also- a working jib with a single reef point, a genoa and an assymmetrical spinnaker.  Around here we virtually never fly the genoa- we have plenty of wind here. But over in Florida and on the east coast, I know from experience it'll be our main jib.

[Frank]

I'm very much of the opinion..."do what feels right for you". Having said that and had furlers and hank-on....my electra will be a simplified  version of CJ and Laura's. Main with 2 deep reef points,jib with one deep reef point and a nylon 150. Figured it has most bases covered,was the best bang for the buck and won't jamb. Remind me of that as I'm soaked-changing headsails on a bucking bow  :o   Even with that...what I think are 'the basics'...its a lot of $$ even for a 22fter

[Godot]

After a year and a half, I'm finally getting back to the boat today.  Yippee.  I am somewhat afraid of what I may find, though.  It has been pretty seriously neglected while I've been dealing with life's other dramas.

Then, tonight, dinner with friends and salsa dancing in Annapolis (sailboat mecca).  Time to get back on track...

[Frank]

Hope its OK when ya get back aboard. There's something about just sittin below. I'm sure you'll have a few good moments before heading out dancing after. Good luck

[Godot]

I got her pumped out, but I need to do a lot of cleaning. varnishing (or maybe PAINTING), and general upkeep. All deck fittings are going to be rebed (I got to get a handle on the deck leaks). I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the teak cap rail which is in terrible condition.  In fact, ALL the exterior wood needs TLC (or replacement).  Today = boat cleaning day, I think.

Gotta love fiberglass.  It might be cold and impersonal compared to wood; but it shakes off neglect a lot more readily.

[Bubba the Pirate]

Good Luck, Man!   Glad to hear you are able to get back at it.  I am hip deep in my boatwork and appreciating f/g's resilience.  Next boat, if the PO did ANY of his own work, he has to pass a mechanical aptitude test for me to buy!  :o)

[Frank]

I know why I save all my old sailigs rags....evey once in a while you're looking thru an old one and find a jewel. My compac 25 has too much teak outside...a pain. Varnish or cetol must be sanded and taped. If not well sanded the job looks the shits. This couple did an article on their find  "Semco Teak Sealer". You only sand the 1st time...simply wash,let dry and apply after that...NO SANDING. NO taping either. Apparently its like 'Thompson's water seal"..only for teak. In 6-8mths when the water doesn't beed as much...you re-apply. It wipes up and even if allowed to dry on your gelcoat...comes off easily with alchohol.

Not my find...haven't used it yet...but I do have a jug ordered. You buy direct...just search the name. Seems it takes the drudgery out of maintainance.  Different shades of colour too  ;-)

Good luck

[Godot]

There has been a massive status change.  The Scoot is, obviously, a non starter at this moment, although I do hope to make the trip at some point.  The plans for my Seafarer have changed several times in the past few months.  First, it was continued prep for a late Scoot.  Then it was to be sold to help finance a somewhat larger boat for live-aboard purposes.  Now, it is being prepped itself for possible live-aboard purposes.  Finances are weird, and until they settle down one has to do what one has to do, and moving out of the house onto my little boat seems like a good way of cutting expenses while getting myself back into the sailing lifestyle.

So until such time as I can comfortably afford something a bit more roomy, my focus has shifted from prepping for offshore seaworthiness, to a modicum of live-aboard comfort.  It's a good thing I'm a minimalist at heart.  I'm not spare with words, though, so a somewhat updated and lengthy plan follows.

Several questions are presented to me.  One is that I am unlikely to recover much, if any, financial investment in the boat if I end up selling in a few months.  So, do I spend the time and money to make it a nicer and more comfortable boat on the possibility that I might be in it for awhile? Or do I keep things in their more or less run down state in the hope that I may be able to upgrade before too long.  Hmmm.

In the short term the answer is that I will work on high value/low cost upgrades. 

I'm redoing the dinette area to make it fit me better.  This is something that has been ongoing for a few years, although it has been largely ignored since life got "interesting" a couple years ago.  I am putting the finishing touches on now.

Some new cabinets where installed.  I think they look nifty. 

I'm thinking of sacrificing the quarter berth by extending the galley into it.  heck, I never use it for anything but a place to throw things anyhow, so I might as well make my galley a bit more usable.  I need a bigger sink as the one that is molded in is tiny.  I've got a couple options for around $50 or so that will be a huge improvement.  I think I'm going to get a foot pump for the water, too, so I can use both hands while washing up.  I have a little butane stove which is ok, but if it looks like I'll be staying onboard for awhile I'll eventually upgrade that.  Lotsa money, though.

I'm putting in some nicer trim here and there.  All of this is very inexpensive as I have a basement full of wood left over from my aborted home renovation.

The head has been a serious question mark.  Right now I'm using a port-a-pot, which is adequate for occasional use; but really not that pleasant.  If I planned on never leaving the dock, I'd tear the thing out and put in some drawers or something.  But I do plan on a lot of sailing, so I have a few options.  First is to install a holding tank and plumb in a new toilet.  Esthetically, this is my preference.  It's also pricey.  Second is to install a composting head.  It would have to be a home brew system, though, as the manufactured composters are too tall, plus there wouldn't be enough room to swing the mixing handle.  But what to do with unfinished compost when the thing fills up?  Third is to keep the portable.  Advantages are that it is paid for and it can be pumped out or manually dumped.  Disadvantages are its' capacity, it is a little too tall for comfort, and it just isn't that pleasant to be around.  I guess I will keep it, though, while planning an alternative if I decide Godot is comfortable enough to spend a couple years on.

I redid the electrical system when I bought the boat.  I am unsatisfied with my solution and I am looking to change things around some.  Happily, I should be able to reuse most of the good quality wire I installed, as well as the panels, so this is more labor than expense.  My big complaint with my previous job is where I located the electrical panels.  It seemed to make sense at the time; but since then I have had a change of opinion and plan on relocating them.  Something is screwy with the AC system, too, as the reverse polarity light is on on the panel.  I've checked the wiring and it seems to be right; but I'm beginning to suspect that one of the wiring diagrams was wrong.  Or the marina is wired backwards.

Paint, while a bit pricey for the good stuff, is magic at turning something tired into something fresh.

If I do decide to keep the boat, I will continue with the scoot prep items.  I believe this boat can be outfitted for some safe offshore passages.  The question is is it cost effective.

[Bob23]

Hey Adam:
   Defender sells a porta-potti than can be pumped out at a pumping station and vented to the exterior of the boat. I think it even has an external fill hose that can lead to a deck fitting. Check out item # 501647 I think. I was gonna build one into my Compac 23 as a semi-permanent head that could be removed if desired.
Bob23

[Frank]

I think the good news here is 1-you`re moving aboard. Talk about getting to know your boat and what you`d like to change and 2-...most `creature comfort`things aren`t expensive. Paint is cheap, so is re-doing cushions. Ya can make her more livable and bright for lil funds but a bit of of sweat. Have fun...glad you`re moving abourd. Think of it as a `Thoreau`cabin experience.

[Godot]

Thanks, guys.  Actually, my current head *IS* plumbed for deck pumpout, or it can be manually dumped.  This is a good thing as my marina shuts down the pumpouts (and water) sometime in November.

The reason I have such conflict (as you could probably guess from my sleep deprived semi coherent rant above) is that I have seen a number of 27-28 foot (and bigger) boats for not much money that are much more comfortable inside.  They all need updating; but the costs of updating a slightly bigger boat are similiar to my little boat (assuming rig, sails, and motor are halfway decent).  Of course, the best boat is the boat you already own.

Real issues on Godot:

• Not quite standing headroom.  The further forward you go, the worse it gets.  I don't spend much time standing, though, especially given it's really only three or four steps forpeak to companionway, so this is something I can live with.  I have no problem cooking while sitting down.
• The v-berth is just a hair too short to be comfortable for me.  I am just about finished with the rebuild of the dinette area, though, which will allow a reasonably comfortable berth in the main cabin.
• The head is impossibly cramped.  What the heck; I'll probably use the marina facilities most of the time.
• Storage.  Little more needs to be said.  Except that this should really help me get rid of the junk, so maybe it isn't a bad thing afterall.  I think my upcoming galley project will help some, in any case.
• The boat doesn't make my heart sing.  She's just not that pretty to my eye.
• Godot is small enough and ugly enough that it may very well negatively impact my love life.  Of course, having a woman in my life would be the biggest risk to my actually setting off in a couple of years, so this really might not be a disadvantage.  Except for the sex thing.  I miss sex.

But, naturally Godot has some things going for her as well...

• She is paid for, and her slip is not overly expensive.
• She is fairly stiff, reasonably responsive, moderately fast, and quite a bit of fun to sail.  I have some balance issues to deal with (lee helm), and I haven't quite figured it all out when the winds get above the mid twenties; but I should be able to deal with these issues with a little trial and error.  The boat has never felt unsafe (at least, not yet), and I've been known to sail her in conditions that are really pushing my ability.
• She is not worth much, which means I can hack at her without worrying about resale value.  It also means I can experiment to my hearts content to get her set up the way I like.  Even if I totally destroy her, I'm not out too much.
• Anything more than liability insurance is pointless.  Money saved.
• I really think that once I get her set up right I could take her most anywhere.  Well, maybe not around Cape Horn; but on any number of other less extreme adventures, including offshore passages during appropriate seasons.

I've carefully inquired about liveaboards at the marina office and didn't really get a policy answer.  Basically they said that they really aren't set up for it in the winter as the water and waste pumps get shut down; but that lots of people spend a lot of time aboard in the better three seasons.  I asked around and there are three or four full-time liveaboards.  I talked to one and the policy seems to be "Don't ask, don't tell."  I'm pretty sure there are no restriction in my contract.  I'm just going to do it and plead ignorance if they talk to me about it.  Keeping the boat in the water is certainly no problem.

[CapnK]

"Don't ask don't tell' WRT living aboard seems to be a common marina policy. :)

Sounds like to me you are in a pretty good place - not much to lose, plenty to gain. :)

(& Forget about sex - that way if/when it happens, it'll be that much better. ;D )

Check out the website stories of the guy in England that Frank posted about yesterday, cruising with his wife on a 16'er. He reminded me of one of my salient points, when considering or confronting questions about "living aboard such a small boat". I think back to my kayaking/camping times, when I was really really enjoying just living, and compare that to the set up that I have with this 'small boat':

We don't have to set up a tent every night.
Most of our stuff stays 'unpacked' and easy to access.
Getting out of the wind/rain is as simple as ducking below.
You don't get these views from an East Coast US house, for less than a million or so dollars, probably.
The neighbors are cool, and something is always going on that is interesting, usually.
Landlubbers don't see your 'ugly' boat the same way that you do - they don't know what they are looking at, quite, and so their eyes work differently. ;D
You don't have to go anywhere, to work on the boat. ;)
You are forced to keep things simpler than you would otherwise.
You are much more aware of Nature, and your place in it. That daily, can't-be-avoided-dock-stroll-to-the-boat will show you that. Especially after the first of the year, when winter *really* sets in... ;D
Etc, etc...

I will say that I *love* the standing headroom Katie has. That is the only thing from your list which makes me go "Hmm, I would have to change that.". But you have the opportunity to do that at your convenience and leisure, since you already have a boat. :) And being in a marina, you are ideally located for shopping. ;)

Living aboard and so trying different things will also give you a 'heads up' on what to shop for, in a next boat, if that is where you wind up going.

Keep a simple stove. Get a toaster oven to use when you have shore power, one which the bottom swings open for cleaning. That way, if you leave the dock, you can actually still use it, balanced on top of the stove (not at sea, of course, but it works. This is something I have been experimenting with, as a solution to the many other methods of baking I've tried. I haven't yet worked much with a seal-less pressure cooker, though...).

Best advice I can give you, from my ~7 years of living in 25 feet: Can the porta potti, and go composting.

Especially with winter months ahead - you will be living in a closed environment, and the issues are sooooooo much less with even a cheap "composter" like mine, than with the porta potti. (Trust me - and, if you find that they aren't, I will send you $20. ;D)

Two main advantages: Composter only needs emptying every few *weeks*, and - No odor to speak of. I had a small porta potti, and would have to empty the thing at least once a week, even though I was sparing about using it, whether or not it was full; the smell just builds too fast, especially in a small, closed, warm environment, and extra especially if your boat bobs at all in the slip. You have to buy chemical stuff to put into it after every emptying. It's a pain to empty, and sometimes a nasty job. (OK, not sometimes - it always is. :) )

Composter - buy a bag of peat or coir, and you're done spending - that will last you beyond winter. Emptying the thing is a matter of dumping the dirt. I will usually then dip up some river water, let it sit for part of/a day, and give it a quick hose out before refilling with fresh peat. Simple, easy, saves the world a lot of fresh water, and puts less bad stuff into the environment. Get a used 10" paint roller, break off the roller part, and bend what is left into a U shape, for the most efficient 'mixer' I have used yet.

It is cheap to try a composter, and you can just set the porta potti aside for a couple of/a few weeks until you determine whether or not the above claims are true. If you find they aren't, then you'll still have the porta potti.

That's what I did, and the composter worked so well that eventually the porta potti got scrapped, after its lid disappeared in that big storm. (I've found that it is near impossible to give away a used porta potti. ;D)

[CapnK]

Another consideration: heat. My boat doesn't have a built-in heater. Here's what I have found best, having shorepower to provide the juice. Use 2 heaters. One of these:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=oil+filled+heater

and one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Patton-Milkhouse-Utility-Heater-1500/dp/B0049RZ5ZU

The small one is radiant - point it at yourself and IR heat does the trick (tho' it also has a fan). I use this by itself in the 'side season', when days are pretty warm and it is only really needed on occasion. I have had other types of radiant heaters of the same wattage, and this one seems best; sized well for a small boat, has built in tip-over protection, low and hi settings, etc...

Then, later in winter, I'll add the oil filled heater into the mix. It is good (& safe) at maintaining a base temperature in the boat when it gets *really* cold, to keep the small one from over-working and becoming a fire hazard. It'll keep the boat at long shirtsleeve/light jacket temps by itself, and you can supplant it with the smaller radiant device as needed.

Make sure you have good, thick power cords. And use a heavy duty power strip inside the boat as an aid to the trip fuse on the marina power pedestal.

[Godot]

(& Forget about sex - that way if/when it happens, it'll be that much better. ;D )

Now that I'm a little older, I don't think about sex nearly as much as in my younger days.  Hardly more than a couple times an hour.  ::)  But forget about it?  I think that is beyond me.

I will say that I *love* the standing headroom Katie has. That is the only thing from your list which makes me go "Hmm, I would have to change that.". But you have the opportunity to do that at your convenience and leisure, since you already have a boat. :) And being in a marina, you are ideally located for shopping. ;)

Well, tecnically I DO have standing headroom at the very aft end of the cabin.  Forward a step and a half to the stove, though, and it is a couple inches short.  I can deal. 

Keep a simple stove. Get a toaster oven to use when you have shore power, one which the bottom swings open for cleaning.

Once I extend the galley I think I'll have enough space for a small toaster oven (I use one at home all the time for everything ... it's hardly worth firing up the big oven to cook just for me) and a small microwave.  We'll see.  I've been thinking, though, that if I'm going to redo the galley this would be a good time to install a gimbaled stove top.  I was thinking of the Cookmate Origo clone.  Yes, I know alcohol is an expensive and relatively cool fuel (someone is about to point that out); but I don't really want the bother of installing a propane system.  Besides, there is no room for a tank.  I can always keep the butane stove around for special needs.

Best advice I can give you, from my ~7 years of living in 25 feet: Can the porta potti, and go composting.

Especially with winter months ahead - you will be living in a closed environment, and the issues are sooooooo much less with even a cheap "composter" like mine, than with the porta potti. (Trust me - and, if you find that they aren't, I will send you $20. ;D)

Two main advantages: Composter only needs emptying every few *weeks*, and - No odor to speak of. I had a small porta potti, and would have to empty the thing at least once a week, even though I was sparing about using it, whether or not it was full; the smell just builds too fast, especially in a small, closed, warm environment, and extra especially if your boat bobs at all in the slip. You have to buy chemical stuff to put into it after every emptying. It's a pain to empty, and sometimes a nasty job. (OK, not sometimes - it always is. :) )

But where do you empty it?  Certainly, the composting hasn't completed (especially the recent 'deposits') when it gets full.

BTW, with the portapotti, I found that by leaving a tiny amount of water in the bowl it doesn't seem to smell much.  I'm guessing the rubber seal at the bottom door is tight enough to hold water; but that gases somehow make it past.  Just a guess.

I won't be moving onboard until spring.

Another consideration: heat. My boat doesn't have a built-in heater. Here's what I have found best, having shorepower to provide the juice. Use 2 heaters. One of these:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=oil+filled+heater

and one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Patton-Milkhouse-Utility-Heater-1500/dp/B0049RZ5ZU

I keep my house in the low sixties as is; so if the cabin can be warmed into the high fifties I'd be chilly, but satisfied.  I hope not to have to worry about this for awhile.  I expect to be in my house until April; although there are some things that might be out of my power to control that might change that.  Heat is definitely a concern, though, as there isn't much room at all for a heater.  I may have to get creative.

But then, what else is new?  Small space living creates all sorts of interesting questions.  I'm still trying to figure out a way to have a decent galley, a place to put a cooler (maybe an Engel eventually), and a location for wet weather gear.  I can figure an adequate answer to any two of the three.  Throw in the requirement for a heater and I'm really going to have to turn up the creativity.

[Captain Smollett]

I keep my house in the low sixties as is; so if the cabin can be warmed into the high fifties I'd be chilly, but satisfied.  I hope not to have to worry about this for awhile.  I expect to be in my house until April; although there are some things that might be out of my power to control that might change that.  Heat is definitely a concern, though, as there isn't much room at all for a heater.  I may have to get creative.

Here's the specific model we use:

DeLonghi Solaris



And I'd like to offer a few comments (even if you move aboard in April, you still will need one for NEXT year.

(1) We have a spare.  We were not sure if one would be sufficient, so we bought two.  The second is brand new, the box from Amazon has never been opened.  We might be willing to part with it.

(2) We specifically bought this model because it is SMALLER than most of the others with the same heat output.

(3) Most of the time, it works EXTREMELY well to keep the boat warm...better than the 'in the fifties' you are saying you'd be satisfied with.  We are heating two cabins with a head/locker passageway in between.

We usually have to turn it DOWN, even with outside temps are in the 20's.

But, the thing that I've noticed is that it all depends on how long the "cold" lasts...20's, or even teens, at night with a mid-30's or higher warm-up during the day is no problem...it takes actually very little heat to keep the boat warm ... at least our boat does not heat-cool very fast, so the one-day temperature cycles get very flattened out.

The only time we notice an issue is when it is cold and stays cold ... last year, we had several stretches of 2 weeks at a time with the temps not getting out of the 20's during the day and teens to low 20's at night.  Nights were tough, but not unbearable.

My thermometer inside the boat showed that temps inside tracked about 25-30 degrees warmer than what it was outside, in the worst case.  Windy days had more heat loss.

Our general rule was if the nighttime temps were in the teens, we would close off the v-berth and all four of use would sleep in the main cabin.  Some of those cold (low-mid 20's) days had the door to the v-berth closed as well.

(4) Electricity consumption is low - our power bills are MUCH smaller than when we had heating a house.  The boat loses a TON more heat, and faster, than a house, but it's also much smaller with less "open space." 

(5) Cooking dinner and heating water on the stove for dishes helps warm the cabin on cold nights...ditto breakfast in the morning; by the time that residual heat is leaving the boat, we are in our sleeping bags anyway.

[Oldrig]

Kurt and Smollett:

What do you folks do about condensation inside the boat?

I'm just curious, but I'm not yet ready to try living aboard my huge Cape Dory 25D.

Happy Thanksgiving!

--Joe

[Jim_ME]

There has been a massive status change.

Adam, A belated best wishes for your efforts to adapt the boat and your life to living aboard.

-Jim