All rope halyards- why?

[OptiMystic]

I have seen, here and elsewhere, people make reference to all rope halyards as a good thing that they may switch to. I am curious as to why.

My mast is only 22', so if there is a difference in price, it probably isn't too terrible (or is it?). The wire part of the halyards are only about 15' and 20' long (that's a guess; jib might be shorter). My boat is a trailer sailor and I step and unstep the mast every trip. The wire stays are a pain. I leave the side stays attached and coil the cables and strap them just so to keep them from marking up the boat and not getting kinked. But the wire parts of the halyards are always tight against the mast, with the sole exception of the jib halyard when the (hanked on) jib is rigged but not raised.

The rope part of my halyards is in need of replacement; they are old and weathered. The wire part of the jib halyard should also be replaced as it does have a few minor kinks, probably from getting whipped around when hauling down the jib when the wind kicked up. I can see that as a possible reason to prefer rope, but both halyards ropes definitely need replacement, while I am thinking I probably should replace the wire jib halyard just as an extra measure of safety. My point is the lifespan of wire halyards seems to be longer. Or maybe I am naive and just don't realize the wires are in bad shape also (don't pull any punches if so; let me know).

If I decide to go to all rope, then I really need to make sure I get exactly the right rope. When the sails are up now, there is only a few inches of rope involved. I could get away with replacing the halyards with a good low stretch rope. If the entire halyard is rope, it seems like I would need the higher grade ultra low stretch rope at a significantly higher price. Is that correct?

[AdriftAtSea]

All rope halyards, especially with modern lines like T-900, are better than wire-to-rope halyards IMHO for the following reasons:

1)  all rope halyards are less likely to damage the mast, sheaves or masthead.
2)  All rope halyards can be flipped end-for-end to spread wear out. 
3)  with modern lines, like T-900, they are as low stretch as wire-to-rope halyards
4)  with larger halyards, the all rope ones often lead to less weight aloft.

Things you should check if you want to switch from wire-to-rope to all-rope halyards.  First, check the masthead sheaves and exit slots to make sure there aren't any burrs or damage from the wire that will chafe the rope.  Second, check the masthead sheaves to see if they're rope compatible.  A rope compatible sheave will generally have a "U" shaped groove, where wire only sheaves generally have "V" shaped grooves.  Third, check the width of the sheaves to make sure they're wide enough to handle what you need. 

BTW, 6mm T-900 would probably be strong enough for your purposes. I know of a vendor that sells the line at a very, very good price. :)  PM me if you need more info.

[OptiMystic]

I have PMed you. I did some Googling and the best price I found on it was $1.05/ft fpr the 6mm T900 from an eBay store (Milwaukee Rigging). My searching also lead me to some pages about going to ropes which suggesested that Sta-Set X would likely be adequate for a boat the size of mine and that rope (just using same seller for reference) is about half the price of T900 at $0.47/ft and possibly less, if I could use the smaller size which is only $0.28/ft. All those prices are above the cost of wire, though. I can get it locally for $0.23/ft, only have to buy half as much and th rope for the rest of the halyard can be significantly cheaper (because of the aforementioned higher tolerance for a little more stretch in the rope when using wire). I think it would require new sheaves also. Hmmm.... more thinking to do.

[Leroy - Gulf 29]

FWIW, I switched my halyards on the Clipper from wire/rope to rope.  I use stayset 5/16", but am going to stayset X  1/4" , same breaking strength and a bit less stretch.  The stick on the boat is 24'.  I also put Johnson levers, and quick pins on the shrouds.  Makes it a snap to loosen the shrouds, and lower the mast, then I use either bungie cords with the balls or saran wrap on a stick to tie everything together for transporting.  I had to re-sheave the mast, but IIRC, the sheaves were about a buck apiece.

[Delezynski]

Andy,

It's probably not all that important to go all line in your case. The boat is smaller and you get the chance to review the rig every trip (putting the mast up and down). Chose what is comfortable for you!

I had a boat some time back with wire halyards. It stayed in the water and setup all the time. The first time I was working at the mast and got a "meat hook" snag from a part of the wire I decided I would get rid of it!

Also, now that we are out cruising, it's easer to get new line than wire for replacement. Also easer to jury rig a repair.

Greg

[CharlieJ]

Another point- if you are sailing a lot, then the halyard is sitting on the sheave in the same place for long periods ( or often) so it can tend to wear right there. Which is usually within a foot of the end. 

With a rope halyard you can just chop off a foot, reattach the halyard and have a fresh "nip". Or you can end for end it and get the same results. I always make up my halyards with several extra feet of length, just for that purpose.

As an aside, I'm one of those sailors who DOES NOT splice the ends of the halyards around shackles. My main is tied directly to the sail using a buntline hitch and the jib is tied to the jib shackle with the same hitch. I see little point in splices there. In fact, there are no splices anywhere on my sheets or halyards.

[KenR]

I agree with Charlie. Splicing is an added expense that encourages one to not shorten nor flip the halyard to offset wear.

[Auspicious]

On smaller boats on which halyards are sized for handling (usually oversized for strength) hitching the halyard to the sail is reasonable. As boats get larger and loads increase, the loss in strength associated with a knot or hitch becomes significant and a splice becomes attractive. I'm not sure where the transition is -- I'll try to remember to look in Brion Toss' book the next time I can reach it under project bits.

sail fast, dave

[CharlieJ]

Must be bigger than what I've owned because it worked fine on my tri.  ;D ;D

I always use the buntline hitch by the way

I'm sure there comes a point where things that work on smaller boats don't work. But I crewed on a 50 foot schooner and all halyards there were tied also. Of course they used three strand dacron because it was period. I use the same- 3 strand dacron, only MUCH smaller!!! ;)

[OptiMystic]

Well, you made one of my follow up questions a lot easier - about the 3 strand. The 3 strand polyester used for pulling power cables under the street is high strength, low stretch, holds knots, is white and can be found as cheap as $50 for 1000'. What makes it unsuitable for rigging a boat like mine? Pride?  ::) That ship has sailed...  ;D

EDIT - Actually, 1200' for $50:

https://www.nettechdi.com/eserv/eclipse.ecl?PROCID=WEBPROC.WOE.AUTH&MISC.ID=JT&AUTOLOG=YES&PN=56602&CLEV=5&TRACKN0=0

[CharlieJ]

Can't say that I'd see anything wrong with it. Dacron polyester is dacron polyester, IF the lay is the same.

The link you posted took me to some 1/4- I use 3/8 on Tehani. 1/4 would probably do the job but it's hard on the hands. Which is why we use 3/8- much easier to pull on. And Laura sets sail as often as I do so making it easier for her counts for me.

I'd have to see the stuff before I said sure- go ahead, but I can't see any reason why not. The 3 strand dacron we use cost me $.22 foot 5 years ago. By the way- we use it for our mainsheet also.Not the jib sheets though. Doesn't work on the winches quite as well.

[OptiMystic]

The 3/8" here:
http://www.nylonnet.com/merchandise/?top_cat=96&cat_nav=120&sub_cat=289&cat=289
looks more like "boat line" and is explicit about the dacron poly.

EDIT - I did an eBay BIN on some 3/8" poly/dacron. It was only about $15 for 125', but shipping was almost as much so it cost me a little under $28 total or about $0.22 a foot. And it even has the red flecks:

[OptiMystic]

My running monologue continues...

I was talking to a buddy who is a longtime sailor about the price descrepency of "rigging line" versus "pulling rope". He said that you do actually get something for the extra money; they soften and buff lines that are meant to be pulled by hand and are less tolerant of "fuzzies" (the occasional free fiber) than in industrial ropes. He said I might want gloves to do the rigging and maybe the first couple of times I use the rope, but after a few times out there won't be a lot of difference.

[Godot]

I'm not sure I would go out of my way to replace wire/rope halyards with all rope (line) unless the halyard was coming due for replacement anyway, or I was taking off into the wild blue for an extended trip.  But, if I'm gonna be replacing it anyhow, then I'm switching to all rope.

A couple of reasons ...

• If something bad should happen to the halyard I could, at least temporarily, replace it with any line on-hand.  Heck, I could use cloths line if that was all I could get.  I like having the flexibility.


• When hauling up the main, my rope/wire splice happens just as I'm trying to put the wraps around the winch.  I guess you are supposed to be able to wrap the wire around the winch and have it work fine; but it hasn't worked too well for me.


• Meat hooks.  Enough said.


• I just don't see any real advantage to having the hybrid halyard.  Maybe if you are a hard core racer or something it makes sense.  The simplicity of all rope appeals to me.

I wouldn't go out of my way to change it out.  But when the time comes...

[OptiMystic]

I am on borrowed time with my halyards already. I actually bought some rope before the season that I thought would be good, but it is too big for anything but my main sheet (which also needs replacing, just not as badly). I am not sure if N17s came from the factory with a mainsheet larger than other lines, but I do like that when I am controlling it by hand. But I digress... I agree with you, Adam. I should have put that in the opening - that I am actively looking to replace the running rigging ASAP.

More thinking out loud (open to dissection)...

I am a lot more comfortable with my ability to reliably fasten a rope to another rope or anything else than I am with wire/cable. I don't have any reason to think I can't work with wire, especially using those screw down fasteners. But I have very little experience with it and I have a lot of esperience with rope. So it is a comfort level in what I can do, not what the material can do.

I do carry some "utility line" now that would work in a pinch in place of wire temporarily. I forget what it is called at the store, but it is very tightly weaved fairly stiff cord with a pretty high weight bearing capacity for its size that pretty much does not stretch. It's hard to tie a knot in it because it doesn't like tight bends. I would never consider it for general rigging, but I am glad I have some in my emergency supplies.

I came across Kevlar rope while searching for options. It was expensive - almost $2/ft even in quantity. But if I were going to sail long distances in a small boat (like doing The Scoot), I would think pretty seriously about carrying some. It could replace any rope or wire anywhere on the boat, even stays.

[Auspicious]

I'm not sure I would go out of my way to replace wire/rope halyards with all rope (line) unless the halyard was coming due for replacement anyway, or I was taking off into the wild blue for an extended trip.  But, if I'm gonna be replacing it anyhow, then I'm switching to all rope.

Exactly correct. Four of my six halyards are wire/rope. They are fine as they are, but when the day comes they are due for replacement I'll go to high-tech synthetic rope.

Back in the day wire/rope was used to reduce stretching. With new materials, fiber products make more sense: less catastrophic failure, reduced weight aloft, easier hand, and more straightforward jerry rigging in the event of a failure.

[AdriftAtSea]

The main reason I went with high-tech lines was to be able to use a smaller line but have a greater safety margin.  This actually reduced the weight aloft, since I went from 7/16" lines to 10mm lines (3/8") and the rope is a lot lighter, but almost twice as strong. 

[Norm]

Hello all:
A couple of thoughts. 

Wire is great because it does not stretch.  But it does chafe.  The major chafe point is aloft at the masthead sheave.  Difficult to inspect and maintain.  Although cheaper than rope the cost of the splices and a regularly replaced masthead sheave make initial cost savings moot. 

I favor, and often am rerigging to replace wire+rope halyards, a Spectra or Vectran core rope with a dacron cover.  It is easy to knot if you have to.  I use a variant of the "cow hitch" in stead of a bowline if space is important.  The rope is easy on the equipment and can be inspected easily.  Yale Cordage makes a great product but I cannot recall the brand name.  (Must be that over fifty thing again...)

On one boat, we tried to save money with oversized sta-set.  It was too hard to hoist/lower and stretched anyway.  Stay-set X would have been a better choice.  Since using spectra or vectran, I am completely sold on that.  I find the long term cost-benefit is worthwhile.

12-strand is expensive and has no cover.  It is more flexible making the up and down part easier.  More a race-boat thing than cruising.

Sailing a boat with dacron sails in generally light to moderate conditions doesn't call for anyting too exotic.  I find the convenience of rope worthwhile.  End for end the halyards yearly to extend the life of the cordage.  Whip the ends!

My ten cents worth...

Norman

[OptiMystic]

I need to learn how to whip the ends. Instructions or a link would be great.

What I am doing is probably comparable to "over sized Sta-Set" as I am using the generic equivalent of Sta-Set 3/8" on a boat were the math says 1/4" is fine. I will be using blocks and sheaves that accommodate 3/8", which may mean getting new blocks (not a big deal for the jib, which needs an immediate halyard replacement, but may be more of a pain for the main). I am guessing/hoping you were referring to larger line and perhaps undersized blocks when you said you had trouble raising and lowering the sail. How tall was the mast and how large a sail did you have on this boat?

I have a 22' mast and my sail has a bolt rope. It's not difficult to raise, but the friction of the bolt rope does make the last few feet the hardest in both directions. Still, it's not like I leave my feet pulling the halyard or anything. I may be over simplifying, but that friction seems to work to my advantage for keeping it tight; when I release the halyard, I have to give the sail a little tug before it starts coming down. What I am getting at is that I really don't think my mainsail halyard is under much stress. The jib halyard does get yanked on while sailing, but it is shorter, the sail is smaller and the pull is indirect, so I still don't think it is all that much. It could be that I will learn a hard lesson, but I don't think stretch (other than the initial small amount) will be much of an issue.

Yes, I am being cheap and saving money. But it seems like even the bargain basement stuff is overkill. I know, I know - "Overkill good! More overkill better!!  :D" but I am not sure it is worth paying 5 to 10 times as much.

[CharlieJ]

Couple of points here.

First, 1/4 may be fine strength wise, but it's no fun hauling on with your hands. Too small for easy gripping. The 3/8 will be much better from that point of view.

Second, if you intend to really cruise the boat, then get some sail slugs and sew them (or use the screw in shackles) onto the luff, so the sail doesn't have to come out of the slot when raising or lowering. Bolt rope sails are fine for racing, and or daysailors, but if you are going to be anchoring out, you'll not be wanting the sail all over the place when you lower it- the slugs will keep it contained. You can also stow the sail on the boom much more easily if the luff is contained on the mast.

Also makes it far simpler to raise the sail in a hurry- you no longer have to feed the bolt rope in as you hoist. Of course you may need to make a mast gate of some sort to keep the slugs in while the sail is down but that's relatively easy to do.