Cutter verses Sloop Rig

[Publius]

I am debating whether or not to configure my 26ft sloop to a cutter rig. This would involve creating a bowsprit. Will there be a noticeable difference in handling and speed? Will it be worth the effort? How do I calculate sail ratios between my main sail and two theoretical head sales? What will effect will this have on rudder control?

Thanks

[AdriftAtSea]

On a boat that small, that was originally designed as a sloop, I wouldn't bother.  The problem is that a cutter design would have the mast stepped further aft than a sloop.  Since yours was designed as a sloop, adding the sprit might give the boat some lee helm issues, since you're effectively moving the center of effort forward.  Unless your boat currently has strong weather helm issues, don't do it.

Creating a bowsprit that is solidly enough anchored to the deck to work in heavier conditions is hard to do, and you would probably require a bobstay for it.  You'd also want to reinforce the deck where the sprit is attached. 

Finally, adding a sprit would increase the effective length of your boat, making haulouts, storage and dock costs higher—since many of these charge by the foot and include things like bowsprits in their measurements.

[jotruk]

A friend of mine converted a 26' to a cutter rig , He found out real quick that it changed up the handling and made the boat very hard to maneuver. Also there was no appearant gain in speed. He changed the boat back as soon as  he got back to dock,

[CharlieJ]

I'll go along with what others have said. But-

Adding a removeable stay aft of the existing headstay wouldn't be a bad idea on a boat to be sailed on passage. That would give you the capability of dousing the jib and setting a small staysail closer to the mast, so when the main sail is reefed the forces are closer to center- balances the boat better. Also makes working on that sail easier in heavy weather because you are on a much wider portion of the foredeck.

But this is far different from changing to a cutter. A cutter is a wonderful rig- offshore on long passages- gives you a wide variety of sail combination's and the mast is almost in the center of the boat.. But a standard modern sloop is almost as good, so I'd stay with the sloop. I say "modern" sloop because originally sloops had bowsprits most times. The ones without were called "knock-abouts"

[AdriftAtSea]

Charlie's suggestion of a solent stay, which is a common form for a removable inner forestay that doesn't require adding running backstays to the mast is an excellent one... gives you a good place for storm jib or staysail. 

On a boat the size of yours, you could probably use a hyfield lever to set it up quickly, but would still need to have a fairly substantial chainplate or deck fitting for it.

[Publius]

interesting, ive never heard of a solent stay (probably because I am new to sailing haha).  that sounds like a great option, how would i go about reinforcing the deck and at what distance from the mast and such?

[CharlieJ]

Google is your friend ;D

Enter "Solent Stay" and sit back and read. I got 137,000 hits :D

[Publius]

wow okay, interesting.  so when would I use this stay sail? will I be able to notice an increase in speed/handling rather than just using jib and main?

[Captain Smollett]

wow okay, interesting.  so when would I use this stay sail? will I be able to notice an increase in speed/handling rather than just using jib and main?

You probably won't notice a speed increase using a staysail vs just a jib + main...theoretical hull speed is theoretical hull speed no matter the sail plan...with caveats (*).

What using the staysail will give you is better balance when the sloop's jib+main is overpowered.  Think of it this way: it allows you to break up your sail area into smaller pieces, some of which you can keep closer to the boat's center.

Richard Henderson wrote about this type of stay (he called it a baby stay, which sometimes has a different meaning) and some of it's advantages in his book Understanding Rigs and Rigging.

* The caveat is when using the staysail will allow you to sail with better balance or by keep the boat more on her feet in a given set of conditions. A sloop rig has only so many options; adding options will generally allow you to find a more optimum sailplan - at the expense of complexity.

[newt]

What using the staysail will give you is better balance when the sloop's jib+main is overpowered.  Think of it this way: it allows you to break up your sail area into smaller pieces, some of which you can keep closer to the boat's center.

This is exactly what happened to me last week, and I was overpowered in my CP 23 with just a small part of the jib out and a reefed main. Broached, and scared the c#@p out of my crew. Winter project is to put a second reef in the main and babystay with a storm jib.
Well, I had nothing to do this winter anyway ;D

[Bill NH]

IMHO a cutter rig on the size boat most of us are sailing (<30 ft) is not really worth the trouble.  My old Voyager 26 was a cutter, and between the permanent stays'l stay and the boom for the self-tending staysail, there was just way too much clutter on the foredeck.  Always in the way when anchoring or taking in the jib.  Couldn't put a dinghy on the foredeck either...

[pura vida]

Adrift has a good point in that most cutters have their mast farther aft than a sloop. With that said, one of the stock sails for my C&C 27 is a staysail. It is a huge affair for use in light winds and carries the wire stay in the luff. It takes a crew to get any use out of it and since I sail alone it is in pristine condition (along with two spinnakers). I also considered a solent as a way to carrying a asymetrical spinaker or a giant drifter, but was put off by the complication of it all. I just can't get past having to roll up the sail to tack, simply so it will not drag on the inner stay. Finally if you work out a way to make a bowsprit take a few minutes to photoshop an image of it onto an image of your boat. I once saw a very functional bowsprit added to a C&C 30 that really ruined the appearance of the boat. When I do fly the staysail I don't notice any real change in the way the boat handles once the sails are balanced, but then it is a jib driven boat.

[Norm]

A couple of thoughts/opinions about cutter versus sloop:

The first problem is that small boats don't work well with lots of small sails.  The result is less power than one or two sails of larger area. 

The second problem is that each sail has a decreased apparent wind angle than the one forward of it.  Staysails work best on reaches.  They reduce efficiency when going to windward or on a close reach.

Empirically:  I see no stay sails on the very small cruisers that have made it to the Caribbean.  I also see no "Solent stays" on small boats, either.  Next season, I will ask about this by seeking out the small cruisers and asking them. 

A typical exception is cutters designed as cutters.  I think of the Bristol Channel model championed by Lin and Larry Pardy   Normally they have a bow sprit.  The big head sail is for light air and off-wind sailing.  designed as a cutter, those boats are remarkably able.  I favor leaving sloops as sloops.

Converting a sloop to cutter seems to me.. opinion only... a lot of money for not much value.

Some of the issues surrounding the discussion are managing performance, heel, on board comfort, safety as the wind increases, etc.  The first issue is with the main sail.  The second is with roller reefing a jib.

The main sail needs to be reefed so the sail is flat.  Flatter is better.  Often, I see mains reefed to a shape consistent with light air... a big bag.  The reefing out haul has to pull the foot tight.  Also, let the traveller down to spill air.  Sheet out twists off the top of the sail which reduces thrust and reduces life of the sail.  A flat main,  travellered to leeward is very effective. 

Genoas that are rolled up a bit makes the sail round.  The more it is rolled in the rounder it gets.  Useful only on reaches.  Additionally, a light genoa is made of material that is unsuitable for storm sails.  This guides one to look at a better sail.  Being able to change to a properly designed small jib makes a huge positive difference.  A small sail boat with a 75% jib will sail much, much better than the same boat with a 120% jib rolled to 75% or so.  The problem, of course, is that changing from a big head sail to a small one while dealing with RF, being on the bow in rough weather are compelling... in the negative.  The argument turns back to a permanently rigged heavy stay sail.  Hmmm...

A new head sail costs way less than a new stay with attendant reinforcements and the new sail, to boot.

As boats gets bigger, 40 feet, let's say, the stay sail stay and sail make some sense.  In the Caribbean, we see almost all serious cruisers sporting either Solent Tays or a conventional stay sail stay and sail. 

Small cruisers, the type that interest us, don't seem to benefit.  Hope I can produce some field research to advance the discussion.  I love a mission!  Especially one that gets me off the Bendy Toy 45 to chat with real sailors.

There are some SailFars out there actually cruising.  I wonder what they find?

Best to all, Norman

[AdriftAtSea]

One advantage to a solent stay is that it doesn't generally require running backstays to support it.  Having a solent stay can be very useful for a storm jib, since it allows the storm jib to be closer to the mast, moving the center of effort aft, and helping keep the boat better balanced.

[Norm]

Yes, it is a slightly easier installation than a full-on staysail stay. 

We had a Solent stay and 90% jib  rigged on a 67 foot Bill Tripp Jr boat I sailed RI to BVI.  Darn convenient.  Except when tacking, then we had to roll up the genoa (on forward headstay), tack, and roll out the genoa.  OK in the ocean.  What a hassle in coastal waters.  Myself and two of the same guys on the Tripp sailed a 67 ft Holland with a proper staysail stay and sail Japan to CA.  I preferred that rig.  Except those darn running backstays.

One of the things we knew we wanted and found on Averisera was the standard big main fractional rig.  With the second reef tucked in the mainsail clears the runners aloft so we sail like a masthead boat.  Perfect.

norman

[newt]

All of these arguments are good, and make sense for not having a babystay on the front. You haven't really addressed the one reason I want one however, and that is to keep a little jib up during gusty conditions. My Compac really will not point without the jib, and rolling it up the furling jib just makes the force way outside of the boat. This overpowers my rudder and makes handling the boat very difficult. Now I have a quite pronounced weather helm, so how bout a removable stay that I can hang a storm jib on? I hear that having one in combination with a third reef on the main may be the way to go.
How has this situation been handled in the past? I think the PO just turned on the motor and went home. I am to a place where I don't want to do that anymore. :D

[Norm]

Newt. 
My guess is you have a light weight genoa on roller furling.  When rolled up it simply pulls the boat sideways, increasing weather helm and terrorizing the crew.  If so... buy a slightly heavier jib, maybe 90% to 100% of J that is cut flat.  Unless the wind is very light, use the small, flat sail.  Your boat will heel less and sail faster.  Less heel is less weather helm.

It is an expense.  Stowing sails is passe now, I know.  Sailing in a breeze is fun with the right sails.  In ligt air or calms, the motor is a useful tool. 

Sometimes cubemonkey and I have a quiet(ish) motor around the harbor in the evening when it is calm.  But, a day that calls for our 77% jib and two reefs is a vigorous day of sailing.

Is there a local sailmaker that can make you a smaller head sail at a reasonable cost?  It may be worth the price to be able to enjoy sailing on the best days for sailing.

Also... do you have a traveller?  Traveller to leeward in a breeze is a big help in reducing heel.  If a traveller cannot be fitted, a strong boom vang will substitute.  Have you tried moving the traveller much?  What do you find?

Norman 

[ksmith]

Norm

       I am very new to sailing.  I have a Tartan 27 that I LA and sail Tampa Bay.   The reasons for not going farther are not important.   

       Your comments about the traveller were very enlighting.   Just thought I would let you know. 

[CapnK]

Great points, Norm. I found that my CP sailed best when sailed flattest. Keeping her on her feet made windward work possible, if not quick. :)

Newt those tips will help for sure - also check your mast rake. Too much aft rake easily makes a CP's weather helm a lot worse. I'm assuming you already have a foiled rudder (from IdaSailor, maybe)? If not, get one - they really make a difference!

On a side note - I always wanted to do on my CP23 what you are talking about WRT the babystay. I thought it would have helped. Before I ever got around to doing it, I wound up with an Ariel.

That I want to do the same on... :)

[newt]

I just got this from my sailmaster:
"The southerly pre-frontal winds bring blustery wind conditions that can be gusty and violent at the Great Salt Lake Marina.  Typically these winds will max out in the 40 to 50 knot range but often climb into the 70 knot range.  100 knot winds are not uncommon and usually happen once or twice a year.  The unofficial record for a wind gust at the Great Salt Lake Marina is 214 mph. "
When your out in the middle of this lake, the closest shelter is over 10nm away. So that is why I want a babystay. Any ideas to survive the occasional 100knt winds in my Compac? :P I know thats not funny but IM SERIOUS!
I am thinking
1. Drop all sails
2. place drogue in front.
3. Seal off cabin
4. Pray