How much experience is enough?

[Captain Smollett]

This question of experience has multiple dimensions.

We've talked about necessary skills and we've talked about choice of boat (a matter of experience, in my opinion).

There are a few things that define the sailfar 'spirit,' and few gray areas.  Is it really boat size?  What gadgets are "okay?"  We've hit this ball back and forth a bit lately, and I think we have a good intuitive handle on KISS and where the line is that non-KISS becomes "bad."

I recently read something that I think makes the point rather well.  I know I wax philosophic more than most here, but SOME of this, to me, seems like if you don't have to know what you are doing, or work for what you get...something fundamental is lost.  All the newish tools, and even engines, make "sailing" and "boating" accessible to those that don't really want to put anything of substance into their goals.

From a blog post made about a nighttime sail on the Chesapeake a few years ago:

We were grateful for our radar and computer navigation system, which turned the potentially hazardous nighttime navigation into what was almost a video game. We weaved our way among the lighted and unlighted buoys, watching our progress across the computer chart, poking our heads up frequently to verify the blinking reds and greens.

In the hands of a proper, competent sailor, these tools are, indeed, quite the convenience.  

But what do they breed in beginners?  

What does it say about this particular couple that with the presence of these navigation tools on board that they were apparently NOT maintaining a proper lookout and not taking ANY precautions to guard against failure of their "video game?"

Maybe they WERE taking such precautions and just did not get into it on the blog posting, so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But it does bring to mind the larger question:  who's reading that blog and thinking, "that's what I need to cruise the Chesapeake and off the east coast."  

What if that beginner then chooses not to gain experience and develop skills but instead chooses to rely on gadgetry, systems and gear?  Without the experience to judge the merits of gadgetry, what influences the beginner's decision to rely on it?

[mrb]

Captain

What bothers me about people who choose to have all the latest gadgets is that they start to think they know what is best for me then they work for legislation making their toys mandatory for me.

[s/v Faith]

Captain

What bothers me about people who choose to have all the latest gadgets is that they start to think they know what is best for me then they work for legislation making their toys mandatory for me.

The reason for my apprehension about AIS...

[Auspicious]

The reason for my apprehension about AIS...

I agree with the concern for regulation, but it's becoming clear that in areas with a lot of commercial traffic you are well served to at least have a receiver.

[curtis]

Grog to you all.

BTW- I began my sentence with "I'm not at all offended" and I appreciate the open and candid conversation.

Back to the topic of readying a boat for more blue water sailing.

Patrick Childress (I think I have his name spelled right) of Newport RI, circumnavigated in a Catalina 27.  He knew what he was getting into but it was what he could afford at the time.  When asked by others what they should do to ready their Catalina 27 for blue water, his advice is to start with another boat.

Common advice is to make sure the CSF is below 2, well below 2 is best, like 1.7.  The CP23 is 2.18 so that says too beamy, too light, may turtle if rolled.  The Alberg 30 has a CSF of about 1.7.  This is dictated by the design and can't be "upgraded".  I lot of other things can be upgraded but that can't.

So the best advice to a CP23 owner is if they want to sail blue water is the same as for the C27, and that advice is to start with another boat.  There is a lot the CP23 can handle safely with a few changes, careful watch of the weather, and a good (very small) crew, but crossing an ocean is not one of them.

Here is roughly my strategy (from memory, no chart in front of me) when doing more than a daysail from our little puddle known as Pleasant Bay.

Time departure for 2 hours or more before high tide on the ocean, that's roughly high tide inside Pleasant Bay.  Make sure the wind is blowing and predicted to remain at least 10-15 all day, better yet 15-20, and 20-25 is OK too.  Make sure no truly foul weather is predicted.  The two hours takes into account fighting the opposing current (peaks over 4 knots at Strong Island) and sailing to windward and then arriving at Chatham Break at roughly high tide.  With a good wind that will be less, and the Chatham Break will be easier.  (Remeber, I have no engine).  Once outside, the current along Monomoy Island will be opposing at about 1.5 knots and the sail is not quite to windward.  The current is lighter further out, so tack out, then tack back to the entrance.  Again, light wind will mean very little VMG.  The current will die down and if all goes well arrive at Polluck Rip at about slack with a favorable current building.  In light air, Polluck Rip is gentle, but in a wind it is very rough near the edges (15 ft) and not too choppy in the deep water (mostly 40-60 ft).  If the wind is very light there is a danger of being swept across the TIde Rips when Polluck Rip takes a turn to port at Butler's Hole but the current doesn't.  From there, the channel gradually widens and in light conditions once safely beyond Tide Rips the shoals can be cut.  Otherwise stay in the channel until the shoals are deep and then change course to starboard toward Nantucket Harbor, or start tacking in normal prevailing winds which would be on the nose.  In most conditions it is safe for a small boat to tack into the lighthouse red sector zone in 10-15 feet of water and not have any chance of being bothered by high speed ferries or commercial fishermen on their way back with their catch in the channel.  That is probably the safest place to be, out of the way of others.

If weather were to worsen to the point where Polluck Rip can't be entered, a long tack past the entrance and past Nentucket Shoal brings you to Great Round Shoal Channsl which is wide and deep and can be entered almost any time.  This is the alternate way to get into Nantucket Sound from the North.  If it may get so bad the Nantucket Harbor can't be entered (which takes a lot since the entrance is well protected by two jetties)  then head to Provincetown instead.  Leaving Race Point plenty of room, Provincetown Harbor can be entered in any condition.  I've never had to resort to either of these tactics.  Going back through Chatham Break if weather turn bad is not an option.

The way back is down wind in prevailing winds and there is less problems with opposing currents.  I've anchored for a few hours to overnight, in light air at various places waiting for a favorable current.  One place is just off Nantucked waiting for a favorable current in Polluck Rip.  Another stop is just off Monomoy waiting for the current in the other direction.  Another is outside Chatham Break.  Another is inside Chatham Break, but outside the channel when the state of tide made entry possible, but crossing the 1 ft MLW spot in the channel impossible.  Small motorboats can still clear this spot so staying well outside the channel is still necessary.

Once in Nantucket Sound, there are a number of places to go, all about a day apart that make for good small boat sailing destinations.

I have a tiny mainsail and had a second reef added to it so it can be made quite small.  I have a roller furler with a 110% jib and a 60% jib in case the wind picks up.  I've changed sails in 20 kinots just to practice and found it easy enough.  I've been in up to 35 knot gusts, but never out long enough that I'd rather put the 60% jib up than sail with the mostly furled 110.  If I had a ways to go, I'd change sails since the shape of a "reefed" roller furler headsail is rather poor.

Given the amount of vacation time I get, this sort of sailing is about right for me.  I don't need a blue water boat to visit Martha's Vineyard from Cape Cod, so the CP23 meets my needs.  The CP23 is more than adequate to handle this sort of sailing safely.  It could be safely pushed a lot further up and down the coast, but not across an ocean.  That is what I meant by "I just recognize the limitation of the vessel that I sail today and I can live with those limitations.  (I can live with it for now at least)."  I may later want to cross an ocean, but if I do so, it will be in another boat.

Curtis

[Oldrig]

Curtis,

As a Buzzards Bay-Vineyard Sound-Nantucket Sound-Narragansett Bay sailor, I'd say your CP23 is a good boat for your kind of sailing. My CD 25D is just about right for me, but I use the tiny diesel engine a lot--especially passing through Woods Hole Passage (I've done it under sail alone, but always had the engine at the ready) and the Canal (required by law and strictly enforced).

Have you ever put in at Lake Tashmoo?

Best,

--Joe

[curtis]

Curtis,

As a Buzzards Bay-Vineyard Sound-Nantucket Sound-Narragansett Bay sailor, I'd say your CP23 is a good boat for your kind of sailing. My CD 25D is just about right for me, but I use the tiny diesel engine a lot--especially passing through Woods Hole Passage (I've done it under sail alone, but always had the engine at the ready) and the Canal (required by law and strictly enforced).

Have you ever put in at Lake Tashmoo?

Best,

--Joe

Joe,

Yes, you absolutely must have an engine to use the Cape Cod Canal.  The same applies to the Cheasapeake and Delaware Canal.  I won't be able to use either one without an engine.

I have not been through the Woods Hole channel but what I've read or heard is that the current runs across the channel much of the way and those even with strong motors who "aim for the next buoy" without taking bearings or compensating for side currents end up on the submerged rocks.  So there is another bit of seamanship or lack of.  A sailor is more likely to be aware of the need to account for set of the current and also more likely to look at tide and current tables and time an entry near slack.

I've sailed past Mememsha and have been to Lake Tashmoo by land (bicycle) but never entered by boat since you can't stay overnight.  Why the question?  [We are quite off topic]

btw- Just got back from BVI.  Not in my CP23.  Admiral Tara and I chartered.  Thats why I didn't respond for a while.

Curtis

[Captain Smollett]

I have not been through the Woods Hole channel but what I've read or heard is that the current runs across the channel much of the way and those even with strong motors who "aim for the next buoy" without taking bearings or compensating for side currents end up on the submerged rocks.  So there is another bit of seamanship or lack of.  A sailor is more likely to be aware of the need to account for set of the current and also more likely to look at tide and current tables and time an entry near slack.

Very good point.  We have a few examples of side-setting currents down here in the south, but fortunately, more with submerged sand than those rocks of which you speak.  Well, since one of the ones I mentioned was Winyah Bay Inlet with it's ruined jetties awash (or under water), I guess we *DO* have rocks, too.

Perhaps this introduces another question for "The List:"

** Have you ever navigated a marked, but narrow, channel with a side-setting current?  Without GPS/Chartplotter to help keep you in the channel?

Grog for the bold part.  I think sailors in general tend to be more 'in touch' with the local environment at least in part due to the "limitations" of their vessel.

[Oldrig]

I've sailed past Mememsha and have been to Lake Tashmoo by land (bicycle) but never entered by boat since you can't stay overnight.  Why the question?  [We are quite off topic]

Curtis,

Sorry for getting off-topic. My question has nothing to do with experience at sea (well, not much). It's just that Lake Tashmoo is one of my favorite anchorages, especially at the head of the "lake."

And yes, you can anchor there, provided that your head-discharge valve is sealed. The town of Tisbury even has a pump-out boat assigned to the lake, because it's so popular.

But to get back on topic:

You're absolutely correct that wind-only sailors acquire a special awareness of the importance of set, drift and wind that too-frequent motoring can atrophy. And your new question is a great one.

Best,

--Joe

[Jim_ME]

Just came upon this... on the subject of  motorless sailing in current--and experience...

Guess what they needed was some Inward Bound sailboats...  ;)

[Captain Smollett]

Maybe in this case, failure was the lesson.

No wind on a very adverse current....

So there is another bit of seamanship or lack of.  A sailor is more likely to be aware of the need to account for set of the current

Some lessons you just have learn "the hard way."   ;D

Does it always flow like that there, or does it slack?

Also, I think they showed some remarkably good boat handling...tight quarters, strong current, four rowers.  Virtual Grog to those boat crews.

[Auspicious]

I agree that the boat-handling on both boats was pretty good. I did notice a line in the water on the front boat, looks like the mizzen sheet.

I heard someone on the shore talking to someone on the second boat talking about current, and the person aboard said they were a couple of hours early and thought they would try anyway.

I think I would have taken a nap.

On the subject of experience, I'm taking an HR43 from Annapolis to Wickford RI over Memorial Day weekend with crew of 5 including one pretty inexperienced person (doubling her up on watch with one of my best female crew) so I'll be helping raise the global experience level by a bit. *grin*

[Captain Smollett]

Very Cool.  Pretrip grog just for going, and for giving an inexperienced person a chance.

[Jim_ME]

The Outward Bound Program is about pushing people hard, testing abilities and endurance, and finding out where those limits are--and gaining experience. A friend of mine went through the (two or three week?) program here on the coast of Maine, in the older style 30-foot wooden boats. The crews would live at sea for days in the open boats, stay on deserted islands eating wild food...clams, mussels etc.

This situation in the video is definitely a different situation from a motorless cruising sailboat (so I didn't intend it to be a comment about that) --where you would (as you said) wait for a more favorable tide and current, or anchor nearby and take a dinghy in... Still I thought that it was interesting to watch. I agree, John...good for them for getting out there and finding out what they can do.

Auspicious, fair winds for your trip. Sounds like an ideal learning experience for your newbie. :)

[CharlieJ]

Laura and I were guests for a weekend on an Outward Bound school docks in Everades City a year ago. Neat group of counselors there.

They led  ten day canoeing trips through the Everglades

[phil416]

When I departed Norfolk Va. bound for Bantry Ireland on June 1 2008 I had done 2 open water passages across the Gulf of Mexico and sailed 1,000 miles along the East  coast from the chesapeake to Long Island sound and out into the Atlantic and back.  I was still not prepared for the forces encountered.  My salvation came in the form of the sailors time out, heaving to.  When fear began to take hold I would ask myself if my life was in immediate danger?  Being aboard a Pearson Triton the answer was of course no. I then set about doing what needed doing.  the first lesson learned was to trust the Beaufort wind scale, which is now posted prominately in the salon.  Next a heavy weather strategy was devised.  Sail to F6, Heave to at F7, deploy the sea anchor at F8, get religion at F10.  As it worked out the sea anchor was never deployed.  Another lesson learned was that Deep Blue has a sweet spot and sails best between 3.5 and 5 knots.  The boat stands up and less water is taken over the bow.  Riggingg loads are much lighter and the boat and I arrived safe and sound.  An attack of common sense changed my destination to Horta in the Azores.  The lesson for would be Atlantic crossers here is have a very consevative sailing plan, do not punish your boat, and know every system aboard.  If an old backpacker from Co. can do it so can you.  Hope this is helpful Phil

[Oldrig]

Phil,

Your comment, clearly based on real experience, is most apropos of this discussion.

As a singlehander, I've found heaving-to to be an extremely useful skill, and one I practice many times, especially when reefing while under way.

Welcome aboard,

--Joe

[s/v Faith]

When I departed Norfolk Va. bound for Bantry Ireland on June 1 2008 I had done 2 open water passages across the Gulf of Mexico and sailed 1,000 miles along the East  coast from the chesapeake to Long Island sound and out into the Atlantic and back.  I was still not prepared for the forces encountered.  My salvation came in the form of the sailors time out, heaving to.  When fear began to take hold I would ask myself if my life was in immediate danger?  Being aboard a Pearson Triton the answer was of course no. I then set about doing what needed doing.  the first lesson learned was to trust the Beaufort wind scale, which is now posted prominately in the salon.  Next a heavy weather strategy was devised.  Sail to F6, Heave to at F7, deploy the sea anchor at F8, get religion at F10.  As it worked out the sea anchor was never deployed.  Another lesson learned was that Deep Blue has a sweet spot and sails best between 3.5 and 5 knots.  The boat stands up and less water is taken over the bow.  Riggingg loads are much lighter and the boat and I arrived safe and sound.  An attack of common sense changed my destination to Horta in the Azores.  The lesson for would be Atlantic crossers here is have a very consevative sailing plan, do not punish your boat, and know every system aboard.  If an old backpacker from Co. can do it so can you.  Hope this is helpful Phil

Welcome aboard Phil!

 Glad to have you with us. I really like your suggestion which I read as 'change the subjective to objective'.  This is especially useful with crew.  It is funny, neither my wife nor my dog ever got panicked... even going through a hurricane.   Other folks on other boats have panicked for no apparent reason (IMHO).

 Confronting the unreasonable with reason is an excellent antidote... even if it would require the addition of a anemometer.  

 Grog to you, glad you are here.

[phil416]

Thanks for the kind comments.   I found that fear comes from being unsure of the consequences of the next course of action.  For me I always chose the most conservative approach available.  Aboard Deep Blue I reef until the little knot in my belly goes away.  Suprisingly very litlle speed is lost.  As for aneometers, my obsevation has been that they are one of the most troublesome gadgets aboard sailboats.  When I felt I was sailing in 40+ knots of wind the Beaufort Scale revealed wind speeds of about 30 knots.  Once learned Beaufort will reliably guide your actions.  I look forward to hearing more from others who have taken another tack.  As I gained experience I was able to carry more canvas and my passages became far quicker without sailing beyond my comfort zone.  Fair Winds Phil

[maxiSwede]

As I gained experience I was able to carry more canvas and my passages became far quicker without sailing beyond my comfort zone.  Fair Winds Phil

Exactly!

One step at a time. That said, being conservative in reefing/sail area is always good IMHO, especially single- or shorthanded. Aren't we all short-handed on cruising boats?

Thanks for sharing your experience and many more safe miles to you!

Are you in the Azores now?