There have been a few sad tales recently about people taking on more than they can handle sailing-wise. Some are quick to criticize and even condemn the efforts of sailors that end poorly. Is there any amount of preparation or experience that is above someone's contempt? Is the very act of sailing long distances in a small sailboat foolhardy?
I plan to sail across the Atlantic from the US to Europe someday. How much experience do I need? I'm 55 and getting older by the minute. I've spent weeks alone in wilderness areas, and sailed about 2000 miles in the past 5 years in small sailboats. My offshore experience is limited to 3, day trips and 1 overnight, 170 mile solo. I've read most of the books, and think I know what to expect. What's next?
Get some experience sailing on progressively longer trips... Work your way up to longer passages. Not only will this help you learn more about your boat and improve your skills, it will also build your confidence and let you work out any unforeseen bugs in your boat's setup before they become a major issue.
Heather, of s/v Flight of Years fame, failed to do this IMHO. The fact that her companionway locking system locked her out of the cabin is a good example of a boat system being badly designed and becoming a major, possibly life-threatening, issue. If she had done some longer coastal passages before starting out on her circumnavigation attempt, she may have discovered it to be a problem and been able to fix it without having to hack a hole through the companionway.
Know your boat... get as familiar with the systems on her as possible. As Alvah Simon points out in his book, North to the Night, knowing those systems intimately may save your life one day... it did save his, IIRC, when he had to modify an alternator bracket while suffering from near total blindness. Since he had made the bracket himself, modifying it wasn't a deal breaker, even with being blinded at the time.
I think the criticism is more because of the arrogance and stupidity of some of the sailors venturing forth.
The people, like Ronnie, who have been criticized recently, often are being lambasted because they knew they were woefully unprepared and knew they didn't have the experience, yet decided to go off half-cocked and then when they got into trouble... called for help without consideration for what it might cost the people that have to rescue them. How would you feel, if your brother, cousin, sister or spouse were a USCG member and died in a rescue attempt of someone who knowingly set off without the proper experience or preparation and then decided to pull the tab on their EPIRB when they got in over their head? Yes, it is the job of the USCG to go out and rescue these fools...but that doesn't make it right for the fools to put the USCG in danger.
In Ronnie's case, he had a 47 year old boat, which he didn't bother to survey or inspect thoroughly. He could afford to buy HD camcorders so he could make a documentary of his voyage, but could not afford to survey or inspect the boat? That isn't inexperience...that's sheer stupidity. He also had only 6 months of sailing experience whatsoever. He didn't know his boat very well IMHO, since, from his own accounts, the rudder steering quadrant failed, not the rudder or rudder stock—and an emergency tiller would have given him the ability to steer the boat at a minimum.
He also set off in to the Pacific, during a time of year where increasingly rough conditions are pretty much the norm...not the unexpected.
Look at that idiot, David Vann, who built the 50' Tin Can trimaran... his basic boat design was badly flawed IMHO. It put far higher stresses on the akas than should have ever been the case. I have never seen a decent trimaran design that had crossbeams that weren't parallel and perpendicular to the long axis of the boat for the most part. His were formed as two intersecting crossbeams and the design effectively multiplied the loads generated by the amas on the main hull attachment points...and it failed exactly where I predicted it would...
Zac Sunderland isn't being criticized... but then again, he's properly prepared his boat, and has gradually worked up to have the experience necessary to undertake a circumnavigation. He's also got a fairly seaworthy and well-founded boat that has been gone over with a fine-toothed comb.
Many people have bought boats with ZIP ZERO NADA knowledge/experience about sailing and successfully crossed oceans. Notably, the Caldwell's come to mind.
As I think about this, I believe it comes down to whatever is your own personal "margin of safety." When you feel ready to accept the risks, you are ready, and no one can make that call for you. The risks are yours and yours alone.
As for the armchair naysayers, let 'em talk. Talk is cheap. In the end, we are all responsible for our own choices, and I would MUCH rather make a bad decision DOING something than be paralyzed into inaction by fear of either making a bad decision or of being criticized.
Yes, some have done quite well with little if any experience. Tania Aebi would be another in that category. However, IIRC, neither Tania Aebi or the Caldwells attempted to do so in a 47-year-old vessel in questionable condition. There is being inexperienced and then there is being stupid and foolhardy.
I have always done things with the idea that I was responsible for myself. I really don't want to depend on someone else to "save" me. I'll go when I'm ready, whether others think I am or not. I may not take an EPIRB if I go alone. But I'm not a fool either. I'll look at the best chances for success, and act on them.
Some people may never have what it takes to do a tough passage. I've known people who had all the training and experience with other people, who can't seem to get it done alone.
I'd like to hear what those who have done the hard trips have to say about when to go. How much experience did they have when they first went?
Dan- we may not always see eye to eye on things, but your next to last last post pretty much says it all- the one that starts- get some experience.
When my boat building shop was sharing a building with a sailboat dealership, they would often have someone claim they were buying a boat and sailing over to Florida(from Texas)
The question would get asked- how much sailing have you done? The answer often was " not much but how hard can it be?" The answer to THAT question was - "pretty tough, coming from here. Do you know what the winds do here?" "no, why?"
We'd tell them- "buy the boat, take two years sailing the coast here, jetty to jetty and in the bays- THEN maybe, you can think about making a trip from here to Florida offshore".
Laura and I tried it two years ago- we got beat back- sailed 34 miles out in 24 hours and LOST 8 miles towards Florida :P :P The head winds were about 12 knots higher than predicted, and seas about 3 feet higher- and Texas to Florida offshore is a dead beat to weather most times. 500 miles of it.
Easy to go to Mexico, tough to go to Florida, offshore.
It's your call... I'd say you just go out and do it....Nobody knows better than you what your strengths and weaknesses are. And, I'm sure, like most of us you got a little of each....The other thing, you aren't going to do anything that won't teach you more of the things you need to know. TJ
I ask this question alot to myself. I am not experienced but when I leave for my around the world trip I will only leave when I feel I am truely ready and my boat I have completely gone through. I have followed the Zac sunderland story and reading his blogs every few days and it sounds like he and his parents have really done well preparing the boat but still I think they should have gone even further because reading how he had problems with the diesel because the fuel tank should have been replaced and the tiller broke then the boom broke. I deffinatly think they should have at least replaced the fuel tank seems like he was still in such a hurry yeah I know he wants the record but still I don't know if I would have taken off knowing I need a new fuel tank seems like they should have done more test to make sure things were good but I guess you can only be so prepared for this stuff I guess things are just going to break. I'm very anal retenant LOL things just have to be perfect well in my eyes anyway.
Quote from: chris2998 on October 18, 2008, 09:14:06 PM
I ask this question alot to myself. I am not experienced but when I leave for my around the world trip I will only leave when I feel I am truely ready and my boat I have completely gone through. I have followed the Zac sunderland story and reading his blogs every few days and it sounds like he and his parents have really done well preparing the boat but still I think they should have gone even further because reading how he had problems with the diesel because the fuel tank should have been replaced and the tiller broke then the boom broke. I deffinatly think they should have at least replaced the fuel tank seems like he was still in such a hurry yeah I know he wants the record but still I don't know if I would have taken off knowing I need a new fuel tank seems like they should have done more test to make sure things were good but I guess you can only be so prepared for this stuff I guess things are just going to break. I'm very anal retenant LOL things just have to be perfect well in my eyes anyway.
I guess most of us have these feelings. Sometimes, I think it would be easy to get things ready and do the crossing. Then I read something that makes me wonder if I need more experience and maybe a bigger boat. I suppose if I wait until all is perfect, I'll never be ready. I plan on picking a date soon, and working toward making it happen. One option is starting from Florida, and working up the coast to a jumping off point. That would shake out some of the potential problems along the way.
I don't think that boat size is all that important, since many of the people failing in recent years have done so in larger boats—Ken Barnes was in a 44' ketch. If you're not prepared, you're not prepared, and a larger boat can actually be harder to deal with, since the forces involved in sailing a larger boat are often much higher.
Beth Leonard points out that she's glad she started in a smaller boat, since it can be much more forgiving than a larger boat. Making a mistake, like a spinnaker wrap, can often be corrected on a smaller boat using brute force—where the same mistake on a larger boat quickly escalates into disaster.
If you have the proper preparation and experience, I think doing even a circumnavigation can be readily handled, given some luck. That said, there will always be the chance that your luck has run out and you run into a storm or situation that just can't be foreseen.
Quote from: okawbow on October 18, 2008, 09:34:38 PM
Quote from: chris2998 on October 18, 2008, 09:14:06 PM
I ask this question alot to myself. I am not experienced but when I leave for my around the world trip I will only leave when I feel I am truely ready and my boat I have completely gone through. I have followed the Zac sunderland story and reading his blogs every few days and it sounds like he and his parents have really done well preparing the boat but still I think they should have gone even further because reading how he had problems with the diesel because the fuel tank should have been replaced and the tiller broke then the boom broke. I deffinatly think they should have at least replaced the fuel tank seems like he was still in such a hurry yeah I know he wants the record but still I don't know if I would have taken off knowing I need a new fuel tank seems like they should have done more test to make sure things were good but I guess you can only be so prepared for this stuff I guess things are just going to break. I'm very anal retenant LOL things just have to be perfect well in my eyes anyway.
I guess most of us have these feelings. Sometimes, I think it would be easy to get things ready and do the crossing. Then I read something that makes me wonder if I need more experience and maybe a bigger boat. I suppose if I wait until all is perfect, I'll never be ready. I plan on picking a date soon, and working toward making it happen. One option is starting from Florida, and working up the coast to a jumping off point. That would shake out some of the potential problems along the way.
I guess I feel the same way to, you can be only so prepared but I have thought the same thing when I get a boat do a few over nighters maybe sail down the florida coast towards the panama canal to workout any bugs I have along the way and to gain my confidence but I know right now I have no clue LOL I read a blog of 3 college friends who claim they didn't have any experience in sailing and they bought a boat togetther and sailed around the world so in reading this I guess if you have a good head on your shoulders and make wise decissions you can do it with a little luck. my plan is to go just after my 32nd birthday well it's in July so maybe a little afterwards it will depend on hurricane season here.
Quote from: TJim on October 18, 2008, 07:09:36 PM
It's your call... I'd say you just go out and do it....Nobody knows better than you what your strengths and weaknesses are. And, I'm sure, like most of us you got a little of each....The other thing, you aren't going to do anything that won't teach you more of the things you need to know. TJ
yep
Its entirely up to the individual. I can recount quite a few stories of people with little or no experience that were completely successful sailors in the end. There are also plenty of stories where someone was not prepared and got themselves in too deep.
The way I see it, coastal navigation is far more dangerous than crossing oceans. The only thing dangerous I can see about crossing an ocean is the fact that you can't stop the weather from happening and you're bound to deal with a healthy gale (or worse) at some point.
The only problem with that is, how do you get experience in that type of situation without actually doing it? The only way to make it safer is to not do it alone. But sometimes thats not practical. You can't just find an experienced skipper to take you out in a storm! You can get all the offshore experience you want on other peoples boats, but without crewing for very long passages, what are the chances of encountering those conditions while its 'safe'?
Although I hope to have as much experience as possible when I leave, chances are I won't have much. But my plan consists of a few years of island hopping before setting off across the pacific. I don't see how Island hopping with a few 'short' passages is any different than general coastal cruising.
Of course the boat itself should be well prepared, and your knowledge of the boat should be exceptional. but beyond that, the only way to gain experience is to experience it.
Again, thats just me, and every person should know themselves, and know what risks their taking, well enough to decide if their up to it or not.
if you want to do transatlantic but no transatlantic experience, sail to 40th meridian only and than return ^^
If you have to rely on luck then don't go. Training and experience is the Key. No booze or drugs. Take the hop to Bermuda and see. Go back, South or East.
After a while it is YOU that makes it or not. Can you tie a knot and sleep on it? Well, there are thousands or more things just like that. A good strong, well kept, well provisioned boat, will make it almost by it's self. You must want to live and make it to get through. Take a good look at the people who make it very year. Contact many in the same size boat as you. Over 300 boats cross every year. A lot in groups. See if you want to join one for your crossing.
Any plan is better than none. I think you have enough experience to go to Bermuda, probably more. A good idea of weather is a must and what you want to take.
Best wishes, fair winds, Lynx
I'm gonna have to call BULLSH!T on this part of your post.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 18, 2008, 01:32:24 PM
As I think about this, I believe it comes down to whatever is your own personal "margin of safety." When you feel ready to accept the risks, you are ready, and no one can make that call for you. The risks are yours and yours alone.
If someone goes out with an EPIRB and run into something they can't handle and pulls the tab on the EPIRB, the risks are not theirs and theirs alone.... Their carelessness, negligence, and or deliberate stupidity are going to affect all those involved in rescuing them. Those rescuers may very well be at risk of losing their lives.
If Ronnie had gone out without an EPIRB... I wouldn't be criticizing him... since it would have been his choice to go out with an unprepared boat and if the boat suffered a major failure, as it did, it would be up to him to either fix it or go swimming. He'd also likely be a missing, lost at sea sailor no one ever really knows what happened to.
No one forced him to go. He chose to go. If the conditions had been worse or there was an accident, it is likely that some of the people going to Ronnie's rescue could have died. So, no the risks were not Ronnie's alone...
He wasn't ready to accept the risks—he wasn't ready.
Quote from: okawbow on October 18, 2008, 11:54:50 AM
I plan to sail across the Atlantic from the US to Europe someday. How much experience do I need? I'm 55 and getting older by the minute. I've spent weeks alone in wilderness areas, and sailed about 2000 miles in the past 5 years in small sailboats. My offshore experience is limited to 3, day trips and 1 overnight, 170 mile solo. I've read most of the books, and think I know what to expect. What's next?
IMHO If you can't answer this question for yourself then you're not ready. Plan voyages that slowly push your comfort bubble, not that wildly exceed your capabilities and experience. Get experience sailing longer passages with others who can serve as mentors from you. Far too many people try to learn from books. Find a good mentor and learn from his or her experiences. You should be prepared to work hard for little or no compensation in the tradition of an apprentice, but you will learn well.
In the early part of my professional seagoing career when I had already sailed as master of coastwise schooners, I took a job as 3rd mate of a four masted barque at about a quarter of the pay I was earning as captain. But I had the opportunity to sail for nearly two years in this ship, with the former Captain and former Sailing Master of the Coast Guard's EAGLE as my mentors and immediate supervisors. What I learned from those two incredible seamen and leaders I still use every time I leave the dock, and was of far greater value than the money I passed up at the time.
Don't rush the learning process and you'll become a capable and safe sailor - when you're ready to cross the big pond you'll know it yourself.
Com'n guys....face the facts.....Sailing isn't all that dangerous but experience, study and prep makes it
even less so... For the most part, it's more dangerous to walk the streets of Washington DC at night
than it is to sail, (or Chicago, Los Angeles, Oakland...etc...etc) yet we don't don't call people stupid for
that. We raise all kinds of heck about Iraq and yell to bring home the troops, but DC & Chicago both have more people killed with guns than the troops in Iraq....So perhaps we should have to have special training or a license to go into areas like that.... I'm just glad to be getting the heck out of here........sailing is safer with less stress than just walking the streets here and it ain't going
to get better......
Sailing is not that dangerous 99.9 percent of the time, but it's the 0.1 percent that will kill you (or place others at risk, as Dan points out). Books and common sense will carry you through the 99.9, experience is what saves your bacon in the 0.1...
I agree with the critics about Ronnie, although its not in contempt for him. Its just a sad case. I think he truly believed that crossing the Pacific was going to be an easy 15knot tradewinds and sunny passage. He was completely unprepared, and disillusioned.
The successful noob stories far outweigh those few failed attempts (not counting the failed attempts by completely competent sailors, stuff just happens sometimes).
If you are setting of on an adventure, of any type. You must realize that the basic principle of an adventure is heading off into the unknown. Although crossing oceans these days is not completely unknown, the principle is still the same, you WILL encounter things you did not prepare for. You will face challenges that you could not anticipate. Thats why mental preparedness is whats most important. If you don't trust yourself to handle whatever comes up, and if you are not prepared to accept the consequences of whatever decisions you make, or whatever the outcome, then you are not ready for that particular adventure.
That is why people suggest smaller passages to pepare you, its not that you will you all the sudden learn what to do in any given situation, its that you will gain confidence in yourself.
Dave and Jaja Martin said "Experience is NOT accumulative".
To me this means, if you have sailed through one storm, that does not mean you are prepared for the next one. There are no two storms that are the same.
But if you are confident in yourself, then you know that no matter what comes up, you will deal with it, and accept the consequences and the benefits.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on October 20, 2008, 06:56:50 AM
If someone goes out with an EPIRB and run into something they can't handle and pulls the tab on the EPIRB, the risks are not theirs and theirs alone.... Their carelessness, negligence, and or deliberate stupidity are going to affect all those involved in rescuing them. Those rescuers may very well be at risk of losing their lives.
The EPIRB thing is an interesting point to ponder. I think Ronnie was wise to take one and I won't criticise anyone for doing so. But, I do get the feeling that they provide a sense of security for folk to try something they otherwise would not. In Ronnie's case the security provided was real - but it can never be a guarantee. Better to have a well prepared boat and experiance rather than an EPIRB.
Danger to rescuers? IMO for the proffesional rescuers EPIRB's are a bonus for their own safety as cuts down on search time, even at the price of being alerted to situations they may otherwise not be. I won't say that risking life is part of the job, but when signing up folk will know it ain't working 9-5 behind a desk - that's why folk do it.
But both proffessional and amateur rescuers always have the option of not risking their own lives in a foolhardy manner, even at the cost of someone later perishing. And I would not criticise anyone's actions (or inactions) - cos' sometimes their are
no good outcomes. IMO although as a fellow seafarer you do have a duty to attempt to rescue if possible - but
not at all costs......and for me the offer of help is not based on a judgement of how they got into trouble. Of course what risks I would take for family etc is very different to what I would risk for a stranger.
Years ago when I started in business an old fellow said "people are funny...if you succeed they'll say lucky guy...if ya fail they say I told ya so" Bottom line is who are we to judge.There have been an abundance of passages made by people not really experienced on boats not really up to the task. From Tinkerbelle to Shrimpy and so on. While I agree one should be prepared,KNOW how to sail and handle different conditions and be on a well found boat....even then people will have opinions.What defines 'experience'? What defines a 'well found boat'? Size? Equipment?, design? etc. And NO MATTER what 'your' answer is....others will not agree and for very good reasons.I would personally think that being captain on your own craft is one of the very few true freedoms left out there.Easy to beat some guys choices to death....lets just learn from them ;D.....and if we make some passage later trouble free...some one will say 'lucky guy' anyway ;)
Quote from: Bill NH on October 20, 2008, 08:26:05 AM
IMHO If you can't answer this question for yourself then you're not ready.
My sentiments also, making the decision to go out IS a personal one, but if one needs to ask another as to his own readiness, he probably isn't.
Quote from: Tim on October 20, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
Quote from: Bill NH on October 20, 2008, 08:26:05 AM
IMHO If you can't answer this question for yourself then you're not ready.
My sentiments also, making the decision to go out IS a personal one, but if one needs to ask another as to his own readiness, he probably isn't.
But one could take the view that being able to question oneself (within reason) and also seeking the opinions of others before making your own big decision
is simply prudent.
Or not :P
I may have worded my question wrong, but I don't think I was asking anyone if I'm ready to go yet. I wanted to know if anyone that hasn't done a big crossing, can ever be experienced enough to attempt the crossing and not be raked over the coals (by some people,) if he has to bug out.
I don't think anyone really knows every solution to every problem that might occur in a small sailboat crossing. No one can possibly anticipate everything that will go wrong. Maybe the will to accomplish is more important that the means in some cases.
This spring, I made a 1000 mile solo trip from Kentucky Dam to Florida in my Bristol 24. When I started, I'd never worked on my diesel before, or sailed at night, or even been offshore alone before. Heck, I'd never even anchored out before! By the time I finished a month later; I had torn down my engine 3 times, and it ran as good as new. I had anchored out about 25 times in many different varieties of fast current and bottom. I made a 170 mile offshore passage under sail, in 31 hours and hit my mark on the nose the next morning. I ran aground 3 times and got loose without help. I had never gone through a lock before, but passed through 11 of them in 4 days with out any problems.
If I made the trip again; would I be any faster or better? I'm not sure it would make a lot of difference. I might even be less vigilant, and more prone to accident. There is nothing like doing something the first time, to keep one on his toes.
I feel that some tend to be overly judgemental when someone fails to meet their high standards. Sometimes you want to do something so badly, you are blinded to the reality of the adventure. Adversity reveals character. Or lack there-of. I think occasionally we all feel the need to ignore the consequences, and just go.
EPIRB. That is a good question. We don't have one, and don't particularly worry on offshore passages. We have faith in the boat, and ourselves.
Will we add one in the future? I don't know. Maybe. I'll tell you when the time comes.
Okawbow....I like your post...sometimes ya just gotta do it ;D....."I may have worded my question wrong, but I don't think I was asking anyone if I'm ready to go yet. I wanted to know if anyone that hasn't done a big crossing, can ever be experienced enough to attempt the crossing and not be raked over the coals (by some people,) if he has to bug out.
I don't think anyone really knows every solution to every problem that might occur in a small sailboat crossing. No one can possibly anticipate everything that will go wrong. Maybe the will to accomplish is more important that the means in some cases.
This spring, I made a 1000 mile solo trip from Kentucky Dam to Florida in my Bristol 24. When I started, I'd never worked on my diesel before, or sailed at night, or even been offshore alone before. Heck, I'd never even anchored out before! By the time I finished a month later; I had torn down my engine 3 times, and it ran as good as new. I had anchored out about 25 times in many different varieties of fast current and bottom. I made a 170 mile offshore passage under sail, in 31 hours and hit my mark on the nose the next morning. I ran aground 3 times and got loose without help. I had never gone through a lock before, but passed through 11 of them in 4 days with out any problems.
If I made the trip again; would I be any faster or better? I'm not sure it would make a lot of difference. I might even be less vigilant, and more prone to accident. There is nothing like doing something the first time, to keep one on his toes.
I feel that some tend to be overly judgemental when someone fails to meet their high standards. Sometimes you want to do something so badly, you are blinded to the reality of the adventure. Adversity reveals character. Or lack there-of. I think occasionally we all feel the need to ignore the consequences, and just go.
Quote from: dnice on October 20, 2008, 11:12:02 AM
Dave and Jaja Martin said "Experience is NOT accumulative".
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more strongly. Experience is by nature cumulative. To say otherwise is an oxymoron. The fact that we learn from our past (especially our mistakes) is precisely what is meant by "experience". Even lab rats in a maze learn from their experiences, avoiding the pitfalls and finding the cheese.
Quote from: dnice on October 20, 2008, 11:12:02 AM
To me this means, if you have sailed through one storm, that does not mean you are prepared for the next one. There are no two storms that are the same.
Every time you experience something you add it to your store of knowledge and observations that you can draw upon later. The first time you take your boat through a butt-kicking storm you will find alot of things that could be stowed better or more conveniently, your reefing will be quicker and better with every time you do it, you will learn how your boat behaves to different size seas coming from different directions, you'll learn what sail combinations and trim allow her to heave to best... the list can go on and on. To say that experience is not cumulative is just plain wrong, I don't care what famous person said it. While having experienced your first storm doesn't guarantee that everything will also go smoothly in the second, it sure will help improve your odds!
Quote from: Bill NH on October 20, 2008, 10:58:02 PM
Quote from: dnice on October 20, 2008, 11:12:02 AM
Dave and Jaja Martin said "Experience is NOT accumulative".
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more strongly. Experience is by nature cumulative. To say otherwise is an oxymoron. The fact that we learn from our past (especially our mistakes) is precisely what is meant by "experience". Even lab rats in a maze learn from their experiences, avoiding the pitfalls and finding the cheese.
Quote from: dnice on October 20, 2008, 11:12:02 AM
To me this means, if you have sailed through one storm, that does not mean you are prepared for the next one. There are no two storms that are the same.
Every time you experience something you add it to your store of knowledge and observations that you can draw upon later. The first time you take your boat through a butt-kicking storm you will find alot of things that could be stowed better or more conveniently, your reefing will be quicker and better with every time you do it, you will learn how your boat behaves to different size seas coming from different directions, you'll learn what sail combinations and trim allow her to heave to best... the list can go on and on. To say that experience is not cumulative is just plain wrong, I don't care what famous person said it. While having experienced your first storm doesn't guarantee that everything will also go smoothly in the second, it sure will help improve your odds!
...
I apologize, surely I used that comment out of its original context.
it still makes sense to me though.
In my business I often see people with Years of experience who haven't accumulated anything except dirt under their fingernails.
And just as often there will be a guy with no experience at all and making everyone else look like amatures.
So maybe its possible that knowledge and wisdom are not inherently connected to experience?
the Martins are just a couple of sailfar folks like everyone else here, who by sharing their experiences have imparted tremendous wisdom and knowledge to anyone who cares to listen.
For me I think knowing no matter how long we sail we can never know it all. Its a forever learning thing. Some things we can never prepare for till it happens. I wish i knew how to weather a hurricane properly. Odd thing though, no one wants to take me out in one.(kidding) we all learn as we go and as long we go we learn. You'll know when ready, or a least know when your ready enough. Ready enough is I think good as it gets.....
Quote from: dnice on October 20, 2008, 11:24:10 PM
In my business I often see people with Years of experience who haven't accumulated anything except dirt under their fingernails.
And just as often there will be a guy with no experience at all and making everyone else look like amatures.
So maybe its possible that knowledge and wisdom are not inherently connected to experience?
Good point! Just putting in your time doesn't get you much if you don't learn from it. I think the connection is that you must reflect on and process your experiences to benefit the next time around...
It doesn't matter how much experience or how little you have. You have to know when its time to turn and call it quits. Only you know what the situation is at the time and you are the one responsible for your decision. So you own the call. My 2 cents worth
What a popular topic! What a great question!
My take is that there is never enough experience and the only way to get more is to "go." Sort of a circular argument. Also, the driving force that keeps us sailing, the desire for more experiences.
Consider the role of being mentally ready. I think back to when my wife and I decided to have a child. We had no experience but had a willingness to start and we were mentally ready. Three lovely children later it turns out that we did all right. (We could do parenting well but not marriage... oh well...)
Voyaging works the same way. At some point you're ready. Then, "go."
I get to see lots and lots of voyagers. It is part of my line of work. The folks who aren't ready have perfectly prepared boats securely lashed to the pier. The boats that are out there are an odd collection of vessels being sailed by an odder collection of sailors. Very, very few die at sea.
An aside, perhaps. I have been asked to quote on a delivery of a 40 footer from the BVI to NC. My quote is: "sail it to Puerto Rico, unrig the boat, and barge/truck it to the States." No one has enough experience to sail that boat on the ocean.
Thanks for bringing up the subject. And, I am way impressed with the trip KY-FL.
How much experience is enough?
It's a difficult question. Funny, but the issue is not really discussed too much. Instead, people argue endlessly about
How much boat is enough?
How many projects till the boat is good enough?
How much equiptment is enough?
I think the only thing everybody agrees is that there is never enough time.
There is a saying in my line of work, has someone with 20 years experience actually got 20 years experience or one years experience repeated 20 times, this is based on the fact that most people stay within their comfort zone and refuse to push boundaries!!!!! just a thought :)
A couple of the sailors in our club have over 30 years experience sailing our lake. These people both have good, well found sailboats, but refuse to go sailing in winds over 15 mph. Do they know their limitations, or with all their years of experience; did they never learn to handle higher winds?
I guess one can suffer from bad experiences as well as benefit from good ones. One of our members is a CG licensed captain, and has thousands of blue water miles. His last two deliveries went badly, and caused him to rethink doing boat deliveries. He hasn't been offshore for a couple years now, and likely won't go again.
As for crossing oceans; it seems a lot of people do it without much previous experience, or even without being a basically good sailor. I read a book, "Racing The Ice to the Horn" about a 50 something man sailing a 24" Gladiator, I think, from California to The east coast of South America via Cape Horn. The first two times he took his boat out for test sails; he ran into a barge, and something else, before he could even get out of the harbor! Once off shore; there is not much to worry about running into, until you get to the other side.
Just saw the movie 'Deep Water' about Donald Crowhurst, and in the extra features there's a great interview with Blyth, one of the competitors in the single-handed around the world race.
Blyth had never sailed, but he had done a double-handed row across the Atlantic. His comments about his first night at sea were pretty funny.
He shouldn't have gone, in my opinion, and he retired from the race at the Cape of Good Hope.
I like the idea of going somewhere by sail, but I don't have the experience to do most of what I dream about. I do, however, think I know how to get the experience. Hope that doesn't hurt too bad... ;D
This may be an example of inexperience :)
//http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20080924095447ymnews.html
or just bad luck ;)
No, I don't think it is just bad luck. It takes a certain kind of idiot to go out without even the minimum of basic safety gear. He had seriously outdated flares, no radio, no PFDs, and not even the basics needed to navigate safely—no charts. In his case, I think it was far more than just inexperience.
I was joking ;)
I just wonder how many "Captain Calamity's" there are out there sailing around and just 'luck out' and not get caught. I guess that God looks out for drunks, fools , and idiot sailors...well, some of the time :'(.
I know that my boat and I are fine for where we sail now but not for "The Scoot". By the start of "The Scoot" I should have "Peregryne" and myself ready to go. A week on Lake Superior or Michigan next summer should bring out any weakness in me or the boat.
There is always that uncertainty when you take that next BIG step, whether it be sailing or what ever life brings your way. All you can do is prepair, take a deep breath, and take the leap.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
You will alway find new adventures, no matter what, some are costly unhappy learning experiences, some are the opposite!
"Knowing when to go" is a personally question, I may go before I'm experienced enough, but . . . I look at life a bit differently than most . . . If it is my boat, my time, my supplies, my life . . . it's my loss if things don't go well, I don't EXPECT someone else to bail me out (I'm not saying that you are thinking this way) I don't believe that others should pay for the mistakes of one person, wether it is welfare, heath care, or swimming lessons! Having a little button to call for help, is not my way of taking care of myself. (wether a cell phone, radio or EPIRB) It should not be a tool in the tool box for maintenance.
This is the subject of a speel I have given students the last night of class for the last 29 years. First, I'd recommend taking advantage of formal instructiion. U.S.C.G. Aux courses are good. I may be prejudiced, but I'd say U.S. Power and Sail Squadrons are best--everything from basics through two advanced courses in celestial, weather, engine maintenance, cruise planning, etc. (Go to USPS.org. to find classes near you.) I emphasize that having completed a formal course of instruction only lays a foundation upon which to build more instruction and experience. Experience is indeed cumulative. I cautioned against thinking that sailing in their local waters will teach them much. Repeating 1 year's experience for 20 years is still only 1 year's experience, and limited at that. What I recommend is constantly pushing the envelope, but in reasonable steps. This builds confidence in yourself, your knowledge, and your boat and its systems. Once you feel comfortable in your local waters, plan on getting back a few hours after dark. Then plan a few night sails, then an overnighter. Rather than staying home on windy, storm days, get out in open water and experiment with reefing, different sail combinations, required changes in sheeting locations or tack pennant lengths, etc. In all these training trips, use basic pilotage and navigation---no GPS. It's a great toy, and a convenience, but you must be able to rely on your own abilities, not the gizmo's ability. In the Chesapeake area, I'd recommend them making a weekender, then a week-long trip. Study and experiment with different anchoring bottoms, anchor types, locations. Anchoring smarts are your boat's ultimate insurance policy. Then circumnavigate the Delmarva peninsula. After plenty of practice (a couple hundred plotted sights) with celestial on the beach comparing LOP's with the known position, the next trip is 70-100 miles offshore and up the coast to at least Block Island. Use the celestial only and get comfortable in fog. By the time you've been to Maine and back, the next trip is Bermuda and back. The next is the USVI and back. Check sails and rigging often, thru-hull fittings and seacocks. Make sure you have stop collars on anything than can leave a hole in the boat, like prop shaft or rudder shaft. By this time you will know your skill, your confidence, and your boat and can go wherever the sun shines and water depth exceeds your draft. The secret to success is self-reliance. Stick with basics. More gadgets increase dependence more than safety. Don't rely on others to come to your aid. If you know you can get back on your own and plan for the worst case scenario, you always will come through without risking others who might have to bail you out.
QuoteCheck sails and rigging often, thru-hull fittings and seacocks. Make sure you have stop collars on anything than can leave a hole in the boat, like prop shaft or rudder shaft. By this time you will know your skill, your confidence, and your boat and can go wherever the sun shines and water depth exceeds your draft. The secret to success is self-reliance. Stick with basics. More gadgets increase dependence more than safety. Don't rely on others to come to your aid. If you know you can get back on your own and plan for the worst case scenario, you always will come through without risking others who might have to bail you out.
Very well said. :)
Hi there,
Well if you haven't got a yacht then obtain one...the unfortunate credit crunch gives you an opportunity to potentially pick up a bargain. As you have already seen from the posts the opinions vary, but I would just say go for it....youre not getting any younger and whilst its not an age thing, I believe the longer you leave it the more difficult it will be. I am doing a similar thing on a 24footer (i intend to single hand cross the atlantic in the jesper challenge 2010 from uk to us) and a lot of people say its a bit mad. You will also hear all the experts on safety etc but the reality is you are the person that can determine alone if you can do it or not...
So if no boat, then get one..if you have one, then make it offshore ready, include all the safety aspects, get some more sails (and plenty of extra bits) and then just take off!!!
I forget if it was Blondie Hasler(sp?) or Frances Chichester that when asked what they would do if their boat was sinking replied..."drown like a gentleman"
Hasler, aboard the original Jester
Quote from: Frank on November 10, 2008, 08:30:30 PM
I forget if it was Blondie Hasler(sp?) or Frances Chichester that when asked what they would do if their boat was sinking replied..."drown like a gentleman"
Now that I like :)
The sea giveth the sea taketh away
the actual quote..again by failing memory was "I have resolved to drown like a gentleman"...CJ, is that it?
Something like that. I no longer have the book so can't look it up exactly.
The meaning behind it of course, was that he had chosen to be out there, for his own satisfaction, and saw no need to involve others should something go wrong.
And ironically, the original Jester was lost due to a rescue attempt ( of the second owner) when the ship rammed Jester and damaged her beyond salvage. Hasler was dead by that time of other causes.
Jim,
Excellent post. WRT;
QuoteIn all these training trips, use basic pilotage and navigation---no GPS. It's a great toy, and a convenience, but you must be able to rely on your own abilities, not the gizmo's ability.
The chart plotter is a perfect example of the problem with reliance on technology. The first rule of electronics is that they will fail when you need them. I have been aboard boats with folks who were more focused on that little boat on the screen then on the big boat on the water..... what a recipe for disaster! Sitting at a table in Georgetown, Rose and I were amazed to learn that there were folks who not only admitted they had no paper charts aboard, they were PROUD of it. Amazingly dumb.
QuoteThe secret to success is self-reliance. Stick with basics. More gadgets increase dependence more than safety.
QuoteDon't rely on others to come to your aid. If you know you can get back on your own and plan for the worst case scenario, you always will come through without risking others who might have to bail you out.
Hear, Hear!
Glad to have you aboard. ;D This grog is on me.
My memory must be failing but I thought that the original Jester was lost to a bad mast step leaking and wobbling that was not looked at before the race. A jet pilot assisted in the recovery of crewmember.
Is this the right boat or another?
When are you and your boat ready to cut the dock lines and cruise?
This old salt once said "Make sure you have a sound hull, a rig you trust, enough food to the next port, and continue to stay curious about learning everyday to figure it all out because eventually you will; and beware of bogging yourself down with a hundred projects only, thus losing sight about why you bought a sailboat in the first place".
For some reason, I was thinking about this thread today. Some of what got me to thinking about this was the Mac26 capsize in San Diego this past week (with 2 dead) and the subsequent online discussions. This lead me to further start thinking about Skipper's responsibilities and what experience level constitutes "prepared."
This has come up with discussions I've had with a friend here at the marina, too. He likes to define the difference between someone who has owned a boat and "fair weather sailed" for 20 years and someone with real sailing experience.
So, 'get experience' is a good idea, for someone just starting out, what does this actually mean? Can we be more specific?
Maybe some of these apply more to ocean passagemaking than to coastal (or inland) cruising, but I think some apply there, too and at least to island hopping.
Consider the following as a list a new cruising sailor might ask himself. I'm not saying a person has to answer "yes" to each of these to be "ready," but I do think these are things that should be considered and skills to be honed.
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck?
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters?
** Have you ever sailed in fog?
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway?
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots?
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs?
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway?
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice?
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over?
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one?
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)?
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline?
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping?
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet?
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?"
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle?
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather?
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
The questions you asked are all right on the mark. I think there is another question that each and every sailor should ask themself and that is do I trust my self to make a good decision based on my knowledge and ability, and can I ask my crew to do what I want done with confidence in my ability to do the same job myself.
Captain Smollett, it seems to me your last musings there ought to be a sticky of some sort.
At least I consider those to be reasonable, sobering questions a would-be voyager ought to ponder before casting off.
I will take a stab at the questions!
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck? Yes
** Have you ever sailed at night? Yes In unfamiliar waters? No
** Have you ever sailed in fog?No
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Yes Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots? No
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?No
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?No
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway? Yes
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)? Yes
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)? Yes
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots? Yes
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs? No
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway? No
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail? No
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice? Yes
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over? No
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one? No
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)? Yes
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline? No
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed? No
** Have you ever operate Nod your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping? No
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? No Cold and wet? No
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?" No
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle? Not encountered that situation
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather? No
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity?No as I do not have a vessel, but I believe I could have on my Cal29... Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
Seems like I have some work to do! ??? I look foward to the challenge and adventure!
Great list of questions!
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck? Yes
** Have you ever sailed at night? Yes In unfamiliar waters? No
** Have you ever sailed in fog? Yes
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Yes Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots? No
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides? No
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS? Yes
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway? Yes
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)? Yes
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)? No
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots? No
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs? Yes
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway? Yes
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail? Both
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice? Yes (practice)
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over? No
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one? Yes
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)? Yes
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline? No
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? No With wind and tide opposed? No
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? Yes. In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping? No
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? No. Cold and wet? Yes
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?" No
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle? Not been in that situation
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? No. In adverse weather? No.
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Yes. Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)? No.
Good list of questions John. Follow are my answers and then some thoughts.
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck? Yes/Yes/Yes
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters? Yes/Yes
** Have you ever sailed in fog? Yes
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots? Yes/Yes
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides? Yes
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS? Yes
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway? Yes
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)? Yes
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)? Yes
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots? Yes *sigh*
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs? No
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway? Yes
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail? Yes
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice? Yes
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over? Yes/No
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one? Yes/Yes
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)? Yes
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline? Yes - twice *sigh again*
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed? Yes/Yes
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping? Yes/Yes
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet? No/Yes
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?" Yes
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle? Usually but not always - challenge of a delivery skipper putting crew together
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather? Yes/No/Yes
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)? Yes/Yes
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 30, 2011, 10:16:33 PMThis has come up with discussions I've had with a friend here at the marina, too. He likes to define the difference between someone who has owned a boat and "fair weather sailed" for 20 years and someone with real sailing experience.
I consider this difference between 20 years of experience and one year of experience repeated 20 times.
The challenge is how one develops experience with an acceptable level of risk. Formal or informal instruction as noted by Thistlecap is one way. Practice in controlled conditions is another.
I reflect on a few of John's excellent questions:
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
This is one of the easier experiences to develop. Go sailing in 10-15 and practice shortening sail and heaving to. When the forecast is for 18-20 go do it again. Work your way up. You'll find with time that fear and uncertainty are bigger factors than wind and seas. Smaller boats are actually easier in some ways - the forces are lower although the boat motion can make operation a challenge.
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
I'm on record as recommending racing as good preparation for cruising. Here is another area where racing helps develop good skills. Your ability to manage the boat in close conditions and to accurately estimate course and speed are well developed by racing.
Incidentally, often a speed change on a constant course can make a potential collision course into a non-event. Can you "shift gears" under sail and slow down while retaining the ability to accelerate and change course if need be.
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
This is really easy - sit at anchor near any port with active commercial shipping and listen to Channel 13. Even better, listen to 13 and watch an AIS display (see http://aprs.fi/ if you don't have AIS). Oh - get AIS - the big guys respond more reliably if you call them by name, particularly if there are language issues. Having an AIS transponder is becoming increasingly useful.
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
Just do it.
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
Again, try it in more settled conditions. Once your other boat-handling skills are developed in other areas you'll find that a lot of conventional wisdom is just cut and paste out of context. I recently sailed the Gulf Stream in NNE to ENE winds of 10-15. It was a little bumpy, but not the disaster predicted by people who haven't done it. The extra SOG was well worth the little bumps.
Similarly, conventional wisdom is to avoid wind over tide. The reality in the Exumas is that if you want to sail you end up with wind with tide at one end of the day and wind against tide at the other end. I've run the North inlet into Elizabeth Harbor with 20kts wind against tide. It was sporty but controllable.
I'm certainly not recommending crossing an inlet in a rage -- we don't need a repeat of the Rule 62 misfortune. There are lots of big, open inlets and channels to develop some experience that is relevant.
Always however remember that "when in doubt, go out." Janet, Adam, and I fore-reached outside Marsh Harbour in the Abacos for three hours waiting for good light, which was more important than state of tide.
Finally, since it came up in a number of questions, think about food preparation and eating well ahead of time. I've been through some nasty stuff but we've never missed more than one meal in the process and even then there was lots of hand-food available.
Provisioning, prep, cooking, and eating at sea is an entirely different subject ...
Thanks for the discussion, guys. This is great stuff.
Couple of points: I hope my list is not taken to mean either
(1) That I think one needs to answer YES to all of those else be labeled "too inexperienced," or
(2) That that list is exhaustive...that's "all it takes."
As I thought of it, it's really just a set of questions to show they kinds of things one can easily get surprised or blind-sided with underway. I think surprises, especially scary ones, lead to 'tunnel vision' and perhaps unclear thinking.
I think it's both very dangerous and very easy to get lulled into thinking we are 'better prepared' than we really are, until we have encountered a certain degree of "mishaps" underway. I think this is the essence of the sea-time requirement for licensing - spend enough time underway to have encountered enough 'problems' to show (even if just to yourself) that you can think on your feet and solve problems.
It bugs me that there is a culture of "lying about seatime" to get the six-pack ticket. I know people that talk about taking the course, saying "yes" to the sea time questions and getting the ticket, when they clearly DO fall into the "1 year done 20 times" category because they've never pushed their own envelope one single bit. "Fair weather sailors" don't learn much in terms of what they may encounter "out there."
Some specific thoughts on my thinking behind the questions (where it may not be obvious):
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
This one has multiple meanings (to me, at least). First, yes, I prefer to stay in port than to fight an adverse tidal current. But perhaps the more important focus is the attention spent to just knowing what the tides ARE at a given time...the connectedness to the environment. Too many times, I've mentioned 'looking at the tide chart' to folks and they look at me like I'm speaking Klingon or something.
I have a similar idea behind the running of the inlets against the tide (or sailing the Gulf Stream). Much of the conventional wisdom is to 'head for port' if offshore and things get more dicey than one would like. But running a rough inlet CAN be more dangerous than staying out...either way, if you've never DONE it, and you are just following the online/textbook advice, you may not be making the best decision for you, your boat and your crew.
The point, again, was just to suggest BEING THERE is different than reading about it. I hope that's clear.
So, while I don't think this list is a "must do" that magically makes one a "proper seaman," I do think TOO MANY "no's" should give one pause. That MIGHT indicate one has not handled enough real world situations to confidently operate the boat.
Thanks for the thoughts on ways to turn some No's into Yes's. As easy it is get the experience for most of these, it's a wonder so many don't bother. You don't really have to put yourself (and crew) in "danger" to get the experience necessary to handle situations that CAN be dangerous.
I learn something EVERY time I leave the shore...whether in the dinghy, the canoe, the Optimist, the Skipper's Mate, the Alberg 30 or any other boat. It's humbling just how much the sea (or river), or weather, has to teach. So, while I strive for a bunch of Yes's to these and other questions of experience, I try to tell myself every day that it only takes one No to be the biggie - the one I REALLY needed to know.
While I hardly consider myself to be an exceptionally experienced sailor, I find that I can answer yes to most of these questions. Part might be that I tend to go out in conditions beyond my comfort zone, just to see what will happen. I know a lot of sailors who never push their personal envelope, which is their choice. I make a lot of mistakes, of course; but nothing has killed me yet. Someday I'll get out of the Bay and then we'll really see...
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck? Yes. It sucks to be wet and cold, and there is a certain dread when an ice cold wave of water crashes over me on the foredeck; but in general it isn't all that much different.
** Have you ever sailed at night? I often sail at night. In unfamiliar waters? Here and there.
** Have you ever sailed in fog? Yes, but it wasn't my boat and I wasn't in charge. I remember being in fog so think on the way to block island that I couldn't see the foredeck from the cockpit. It made me quite uneasy.
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? The first time I sailed Godot it was better than 25 knots, and I periodically go out in that kind of weather just because. Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots? Yup; but more out of a desire to learn how to do it than a genuine need.
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides? I used to sail an engineless little boat out of the Taunton River in Massachusetts. Tides were very important to understand, even later when I eventually bought an outboard
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS? Yes. Got lost, too.
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway? Yes.
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)? Yes.
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)? No. I'll admit to being a little radio averse.
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots? Yes. And dragged almost to shore. Learned a lot about anchoring that day.
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs? Define emergency? I once anchored when I ran out of gas while moving against the tide when the wind died. I was only a couple hundred yards from the ramp (small trailerable). Ended up waiting several hours for the tide to change. I also once (first sail on Godot) anchored in a rather exposed area of the Chesapeake during unpleasant weather when I just got too tired to think straight after failing to battle into a protected area.
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway? No.
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail? I anchor all the time under sail. I used to occasional dock my little Weekender under sail when conditions were favorable.
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice? Plenty of experience picking up lost hats.
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over? Not unless you count a sunfish ::)
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one? I took a short tow once while sailing my little weekender on a lake after the wind died (no motor). I didn't need to. I had oars and would have made it back eventually.
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)? Embarrassingly often. :-[
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline? Yes. My first (rather eventful) sail on Godot and the bilge pump was back siphoning. It wasn't life threatening; but when I looked below and saw a significant amount of water in the boat it did get the adrenalin pumping even harder.
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? No. With wind and tide opposed? No.
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping? No and No. Due to my job I do spend a significant amount of my life in a sleep deprived state, though. I'm well aware of the adverse mental and physical affects that result.
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? I've gone that long without a meal; but not without at least snacks. Cold and wet? Oh, yes.
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?" Not unless you count me. A benefit of single handing.
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle? I mostly single hand my own boat.
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather? Not so much in an emergency; but certainly in bad (meaning uncomfortable, not life threatening) weather .
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? I can probably operate my boat indefinitely without mechanical propulsion or electricity. Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)? Not at all.
I started this thread a couple years ago, and in that time, I am able to answer yes to more of Captain Smnollett's questions. However; I still can't really prepare for long passages by sailing on inland lakes.
I am starting a trip in a week or so, that will take me several thousand miles if all works out. My first passage will be about 500 miles. After that I should have another 900 mile passage, and another 500 mile trip. Along with those passages, will be river sailing, coastal and bay sailing. I will be sailing a Cheoy Lee offshore 31 ketch. I have worked on the boat for 2 years to get it ready. I'm sure it can handle more than I can.
Still, even with a good boat and lots of high wind and bad weather practice; I will be learning "on the job". If something bad happens, I'm sure there will be many who say I was too inexperienced to take on my trip. I plan to watch the weather, have all the safety equipment, and sail responsibly. When I'm done; I will have "enough experience" to sail across the Atlantic someday.
Interesting subject - One that many people have given much thought to. Here's my answers and some thoughts too.
Consider the following as a list a new cruising sailor might ask himself. I'm not saying a person has to answer "yes" to each of these to be "ready," but I do think these are things that should be considered and skills to be honed.
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck?
Oh yes, unfortunately.
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters?
Yes to both. Quite a few times.
** Have you ever sailed in fog?
Yep- was aboard a 30 footer running the St Johns River when it was fogged in to the point the river was closed to commercial traffic. Had it not been closed, we would have anchored.We had been offshore for two days, and it was late.
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
Yes, in fact just this year we sailed from Staniel Cay to Black Point (Bahamas) in 28 knots, and waves running in through the cut at Black Point. Wasn't a dry ride ;)
Have not hove to in that much wind, but we've done it several times for drill, and once for lunch ;)
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
Yes
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?
Oh yes- cruised before GPS was around
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway?
Often!! NOAA is known for wrong forecasts in some parts.
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
Yes, but not in a danger situation
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
Sure, quite a few times
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots?
Unfortunately yes. Quite a few times in fact.
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs?
Yes
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway?
Yep- had a mast fall down sailing on another's boat.
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
Quite often. In fact, we normally anchor and un-anchor under sail, if the sails are up. Plus we've only had two boats that had engines.
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice?
Yes, for practice. Never under fire
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over?
Not on my cruising boats. Yes on small one designs.
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one?
Never been towed. Have towed both sailboats and power boats. Once towed a Florida Marine Patrol officer through a bridge under sail.. I had a dead engine.:D
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)?
Oh, many many times. So has Laura and gotten off by herself.
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage
below the waterline?
Yes, twice on Tehani. we had a bilge pump back siphon on us about 5 mile,s offshore once.
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
yes, but not without some worry
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping?
Nope
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet?
Nope- we always have SOMETHING that can be grabbed and gobbled. Makes good sense to do so.
Yes on the cold and wet!! not fun.
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?"
Yes- on an offshore delivery of a 40 footer, Cape Fear River to Charleston. Found out the owner got seasick, and I had to virtually single hand the boat. Which is why we entered at Charleston, instead of Jacksonville.
On Tehani, never.
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle?
Absolutely. Laura is an excellent sailor in her own right. She has single handed the boat several times for up to 3 weeks at a time. I go below and go to sleep without a worry.
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather?
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
Certainly. Neither is required. Our first cruise to Florida and back the only electricity we had was running lights.
And we sailed all over Matagorda and Espirtu Santos bays with engineless boats for years. We have done the Texas 200 twice in an engineless boat
Quote from: okawbow on March 31, 2011, 04:47:56 PM
I will be sailing a Cheoy Lee offshore 31 ketch. I have worked on the boat for 2 years to get it ready.
:)
Cool. Pretty boat, too.
One of my favorite stories. A man wins a Columbia 26 bubbletop in a Vegas pokergame, never sailed in his life. He and his drunken friends pile into a car, take off on a road trip to San Diego with the intention of sailing his prize to Hawaii. And they sail to Hawaii, where they have various misadventures and blow his winnings in a couple months, and turnaround and sail to Seattle arriving broke and starving, guy sold the boat and went looking for another poker game...
I had intended this list to simply be a thought provoking list of the KINDS of situations one might encounter "out there," but since several have posted answers, I guess I should, too.
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck?
yes
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters?
yes/yes
** Have you ever sailed in fog?
yes
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
yes/yes (practice, not survival)
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
Absolutely
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?
yes
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway?
yes
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
yes
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
yes
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots?
yes, about 50 knots in a thunderstorm
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs?
yes; ran out of fuel once in a channel
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway?
yes, on two occasions
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
yes, routinely
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice?
yes, for practice; remain surprised at just how difficult this can be
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over?
no; closest was more of a push over than a knock down - no mast in the water, probably about 50-60 degrees or so
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one?
Didn't HAVE to receive one, but did get one; have given a tow
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)?
yes, more than I'd like admit
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline?
yes, sorta...at a dock, but not underway away from 'help.'
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
yes/yes
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping?
yes/yes; have exercise serious judgment lapses while seriously sleep deprived (ask CapnK how 'smart' I am after two days with less than 5 hours of sleep total over 2 days)
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet?
no, easy enough to plan/prep against unless truly a dire situation / yes
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?"
I guess I've BEEN the incompetent crew (see the sleep answer), but otherwise, no; my crew may not feel fully confident to handle the boat ALONE, but can stand a watch and can do anything aboard that I ask
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle?
No, but everyone aboard that is expected at this time to stand a watch can do so
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather?
yes / yes
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
yes / hmmm, well, our running lights DO require electricity and it could be argued that we need those to remain 'safe.' We can run our lights at least 10 days off batteries, though, which is one advantage of LED running lights....electricity not required for general operation of the boat beyond that.
Final question not asked in the above list:
Do I personally feel ready to cross an ocean?
No. I believe I need more seatime. The Scoot was supposed to help with that. ;) I should have the boat ready for a 2012 Scoot of some sort.
As I'm certain everyone already knows, since I'm a worse sailor than fork-lift driver (and I'm a terrible fork-lift driver), I'm pretty much "no" across the board. This in the interests of truthfulness and disclosure.
But then, in my current environs, I lack even the rhythm of the tides to liven things up.
Strong currents and lakeside gusts are the most difficult things I'll see for the near-term... unless you include drunken powerboaters.
I'll take wind, waves and currents anyday over powerboaters...drunk or sober ;)
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck?
Do I get bonus points if I was at the mast in a squall with full sail up? Single-handed? Don't want to do that again. Lesson learned: reef early, reef often.
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters?
Yes to both, but just barely. Both can be challenging. Definitely need more experience here. Entering even a familiar harbor at night in calm conditions can be a bit hair raising. Dodging lobster pots at night, just downright impossible, unless you have a spotter on the bow. Fortunately, I have a traditional keel, but running the engine at night is scary for that reason.
** Have you ever sailed in fog?
Strangely, no. I'm sure I will this summer, though.
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
Yes, on both, and loved it. The most I've handled so far is sustained 35 kts at deck level with gusts to 50 in about 3-4 ft seas (Penobscot Bay last fall.)
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
Nope.
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?
A bit, but I need more practice, especially where dead reckoning and estimating currents is concerned.
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway?
Many times.
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
Nope.
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
Nope.
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots?
Nope.
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs?
Not yet.
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway?
Not really.
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
Yes, though most of my docking experience under sail is with smaller, lighter boats than I have now.
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice?
Yes, for practice.
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over?
No.
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one?
No
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)?
So far I've only bumped and never stuck in larger boats. In my sailing dinghy, many times, but you can't get stuck in that when a foot over the side will free you.
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage
below the waterline?
A little bit, not enough to be worrysome.
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
Yes, but not too strong of a tide.
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping?
Nope
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet?
Nope
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?"
No my crew are usually quite inexperienced and know it, or skilled and modest about it.
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle?
No long passages as of yet.
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather?
Thankfully, I haven't had to do it in an emergency.
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
Certainly, although, I would have to do it without lights, if night sailing.
Quote from: Frank on April 22, 2011, 11:47:07 AM
I'll take wind, waves and currents anyday over powerboaters...drunk or sober ;)
sigh
me too. I'm surrounded by jet boats, ski boats & bass boats.
I do think I may trailer down to the gulf at some point later in the season and throw the boat in for a "real" sail. Hopefully by then I'll be decent enough not to need rescue.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 21, 2011, 11:27:57 PM
I had intended this list to simply be a thought provoking list of the KINDS of situations one might encounter "out there," but since several have posted answers, I guess I should, too.
Experience is good, if not bought too dear. (Thomas Fuller)I suppose the point is that you can learn from other people's experiences, but you've only verified that you've learned something well enough through your own experiences.
With that in mind, the now famous Captain Smollett's list is even more helpful if you add to the list more than a yes or no, but indicate what you've learned for each "yes" and whether you could have been better prepared and what you anticipate you'd need to be prepared for each "no" answer given.
My sailing experience is meager compared to many on this list, but I'll give it a shot. I do very light coastal crusing in a Com-pac 23. Obviously not a blue water boat.
| Question | Experienced this? Yes/No | If "Yes", were you well prepared and what was learned. If "No" what do you think it will take. |
| Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck? | Yes | It was warm and delightful. Shampoo works well in rainwater. (I think the question had more to do with miserable conditions in the rain but I had a great time. |
| ** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters? | Yes/Yes | This is a definite yes. I've entered two harbors for the first time at night, Nantucket and Edgartown. |
| ** Have you ever sailed in fog? | Yes | I sail off Cape Cod. Chatham is famous for its fog. I cheat and peak at the GPS but try to see how well I'd do without it. I've sailed Poluck Rip in the fog and that's a "just don't do it" situation without GPS. |
| ** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots? | Yes/No | We served champaign on one sail in 25 knots gusting to 35 but that was semiprotected water. This is where you work up gradually. Maybe you find out the boat isn't up to much more than 15 knots when you bought her and gradually improve. I don't consider myself ready on this because I have only been in open water where it piped up to 25 knots for hours (and not days) and waves didn't get all that big. |
| ** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides? | Yes | I sail out of Chatham Break. You don't go through there at low tide, no matter what vessel you are in. Part of the channel has 1 foot at low tide. I've anchored and slept on the boat to wait out Chatham Break before entering and also slept near Nantucket at anchor waiting for the current to reverse in Polluck Rip. Knowing when to sit it out is smart, but where I sail it is essential knowledge. |
| ** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS? | Sort of | I have two GPS. The fixed mount is broken, so make that one. Both are prehistoric (no charts). Here is how I use them. Plot course on paper. Enter pairs of lat/lon on notebook paper. Enter lat/lon pairs into GPS. Get course and distance from GPS. Compar to course and distance on chart. It should match. Then go. Primarily use paper chart, compass, and binoculars. Just to be safe verify with GPS when DR is over long stretch of open water. |
| ** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway? | No | I did hear of severe thunderstorms and up to 50 knot wind 4-5 hours away one day that was supposed to be sunny with possible scattered thundershowers (standard forcast for the area - we have no clue), but I ducked in and was on the mooring before it passed (and it didn't seem as bad as reported). So the answer is I haven't been caught yet. I do short hops and check the weather before leaving. |
| ** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)? | Yes | No big deal if you spot them on the horizon, take a few bearings, determine its close and change course. More problematic where I sail is ferry traffic and commercial fishing vessels returning to port with no one at the helm or on watch. |
| ** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)? | Yes | In one case, it was a crossing ferry situation and they didn't response but changed course as the hail may have alerted them. In another case the last ferry of the night was unsure of my intentions and being cautious. I indicated that my course was their stern and asked them to enter the harbor approach first since I was a slow poke. They did. |
| ** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots? | No | I'll assume you are asking whether I would expect to survive an anchor drag test. My boat wieghs in at 3,000 lbs, has a 27 lb plow, 80 feet of chain and 250 feet of 1/2 nylon briad, so I think the ground tackle is up for the job. Then its just whether I set it well. |
| ** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs? | No engine | I've eliminated the potential for failure of that sort. Never had a rig failure but did heave to for a furler drum jam in 25 knots in very open water. |
| ** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway? | No | I'm propably not at all well prepared for a rig failure. |
| ** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail? | Yes. | No motor so yes. Rarely dock and it has to be an end dock with an escape route. I'm on a mooring so quite good at picking up the mooring under sail and I seem to get by anchoring under sail. |
| ** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice? | Not often enough. | This is something I don't practice enough but I do "practice" a lot picking up a mooring ball so that helps. |
| ** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over? | No spreader in the water | Lesson for me is to be careful of gusts when you know you are carrying too much sail. |
| ** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one? | Yes | Received a pull grounded in two different boats. Got a tow once when wind died and I was going against a buidling tidal current (I have no motor so I had set the anchor) and someone came by that was going the same way. |
| ** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)? | Yes! | I sail in water with 1 foot MLW in the channel. I've grounded intentionally at low tide and set anchor by hand. I've grounded quite a few times by accident in inconsequential situations. |
| ** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline? | No | I'm probably not well prepared for that. |
| ** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed? | Yes | You don't do that in some places unless you are crazy, but where it was safe enough I've done it. We have 4+ knot currents in the channel near Chatham Harbor. Polluck Rip can be very dangerous in strong wind against tide. Also with current running into Nantucket Sound (which is called the ebb in Eldridge) if the wind dies when passing Butler Hole you could be carried by current over the Tide Rips with ocean waves over 1-3 feet of water. So yes, but not without thinking really hard about what I'm about to do. |
| ** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping? | Not quite. No. | I've sailed more than 16 hours continuous singlehanded, but that's all. So not quite that bad. If I was that tired and conditions allowed, I'd anchor out and enter after a few hours of rest. |
| ** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet? | No | Why would you do that? I usually bring food and dig into the cooler now and then. I have been cold and wet, to the extent that being in foul weather gear is being wet and the answer there is bring more layers. |
| ** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?" | No | OTOH Many years ago I was out on someone else's boat with a skipper that claimed to have a clue about sailing that apparently didn't. Other than insisting on dousing sails when it hit 15 knots and motoring back, then a grounding and panicy skipper nothing bad happenned. |
| ** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle? | No | I mostly singlehand. I also go out with my wife and she's not really capable, and sometimes go out with non-sailors or novice sailors but usually that is just day sails. From that standpoint I'm still singlehanding in a sense and not relying on crew. With newbies its a gentle introduction to sailing when they are asked if they'd like to try the tiller. |
| ** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather? | No | Chartered so that is an unfamiliar boat, but not an emergency and we got 25 knots when Tropical Storm Dennis passed 500 miles to the South so not really adverse conditions. |
| ** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)? | Yes. | No motor so no mechanical propulsion. Big battery so NAV lights should hold up so not sure on the no electricity question. Other than lights, VHF, depth, knotlog, GPS (have handheld too) I don't use electricity and I can do without all that. I also don't venture beyond 1/2 day from land. |
| ** Do I personally feel ready to cross an ocean? | No way | This boat isn't built to cross an ocean. Even in a blue water boat, I'd need quite a bit more experience and would have to be better prepared. |
I would say that because my sailing is only very light coastal, never more than 30 miles from land, that most of the experiences I've had are not adequate preparation for crossing an ocean. And then there is the issue that mine is not a blue water boat and never will be.
My experience is relevant to the type of water I sail in. It isn't the open ocean many days away from landfall. When the weather is going to be bad I have the option to duck in a harbor.
A small lake sailor builds experience relevant to sailing in a small lake.
The list is still very useful. I've read about people dying on a small inland body of water.
In one case an experienced hobbie sailor was blown into the marsh when conditions changed for the worse. No one knew he hadn't come back. The next morning when they realized he hadn't headed off to the bar with friends they found him on the trampoline dead of hypothermia. Such is sailing in New England. So the mistake was not being prepared for the cold, not letting anyone know where he'd be, and staying out on the water after conditions worsenned.
Whether the person asking the question "am I ready" is a 10 year old trying to decide whether to cross a small lake in Dad's sunfish, or an inexperienced lake sailor with their first boat, or a coastal cruising sailor, or a blue water cruiser, just asking the question "am I ready" is a first step. When asking more experienced sailors the question really becomes two parts. "What will I need to be ready for?" is the first question, and Captain Smollett list was a start at looking at that. The next question, which is even harder to answer is, "when will I know that I'm ready?" It is a very tough question because it irequires determining when the risk is low enough. Low enough risk is a personal choice. Maybe the best answer to that second question is "you'll know" because only you can decide when the risk is low enough.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 21, 2011, 11:27:57 PM
I should have the boat ready for a 2012 Scoot of some sort.
Go for it. For me a scoot in this boat might be much shorter, mostly 50 miles at a time or less, occasionally more if there is no harbor that I care to stop at.
Curtis
btw- This is my first post on sailfar. I've been registered for over a year but had misplaced my password up until now. I post now and then on com-pacowners.
Wow, excellent first post, Curtis. You made some very good points in regard to 'the list.' Welcome to sailfar, even that welcome is a bit late.
Quote from: Curtis
I've read about people dying on a small inland body of water.
Yep. I've mentioned a couple of times the time I was sailing on an inland lake in 25 knots. The next day, we learned a fellow was missing on the same lake, just a few miles from where I was. A few days later, his body was found.
Very humbling ...
Great post Curtis. Grog to you.
Quote from: curtis on April 24, 2011, 02:28:50 AM
It isn't the open ocean many days away from landfall.
Oceans are easy. It's the hard bits around the edges where we get in trouble.
Happy Easter everyone!!!As far as experience goes, I think I'm gonna get plenty of it in about a month. I'm headed to a lake here in Iowa on the 18th of march and staying out four nights and five days. It is the 2nd largest lake in the state and have read and heard that it is probably the best for sailing. 21,000 acres and 190 miles of shore line with lots of coves and bays. I am a little apprehensive but really looking forward to it. I'll probably be by myself. It will be a good experience. I hope I posted tis in the right category. Google Lake Rathbun if you want to know where I'm going. Hve a good day, Marc
Hey Curtis,
Welcome aboard!
Are you a catboat sailor? There are lots of those wonderful vessels out of Chatham.
Anyway, great post--you actually sail through the Chatham Break. Good for you!
Happy Easter!
--Joe
Okay, I guess I should answer the famous questionnaire. Clearly, I've got some skills to hone before trying a major crossing.
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck?
Yes. A number of times, including in blinding squalls and a full gale.
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters?
Yes. Both solo and as crew to Bermuda last year.
** Have you ever sailed in fog?
Yes. Several times; usually while singlehanding.
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
Yes. I often sail in high-wind conditions (the norm on Buzzards Bay). I have hove-to under those conditions, but usually only long enough to reef down or dash below to grab foulies.
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
Yes, often. Usually to avoid grounding in a shallow channel.
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?
Rarely since buying a GPS. But I always sail with paper charts.
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway?
Yes. I usually sail in New England. Need I say more?
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
Yes. I sail in near a busy commercial channel (leading to Cape Cod Canal). I've had to tack suddenly a few times, but never under emergency conditions.
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
Yes, several times. Always on a friendly basis so far (usually, "Thanks, Cap.").
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots?
No. I've been aboard, but only on moorings.
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs?
Twice. Once I called TowBoat and waited (probably doesn't count).
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway?
No.
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
Yes. A few times, but not often.
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice?
We did a MOB (or is it COB) drill before the Bermuda trip. Stupidly, perhaps, I've never done it on my own boat.
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over?
I think so. Once, in a sudden and severe gust, I think I went over far enough for my spreader to touch the water. Luckily, she righted herself when I released sheets and let go of tiller. It could have been a near-miss; I was too busy to notice if spreader actually touched the water.
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one?
Yes, I've been towed a couple of times. I've never had to give a tow.
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)?
Yes, often. My home channel is very narrow at low tide. Sometimes I've jumped overboard and pushed off; often I've dropped the sails and the hook and waited it out.
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline?
No. (Do I jinx myself by answering?)
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
Yes. Exiting the Cape Cod Canal into a headwind and once, entering Bass River (in an unfamiliar boat).
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping?
No. I've sailed sleep-deprived for a single day in pilot waters, but never longer.
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet?
No. Never for 16 hours. Once for 10 hours while singlehanding. I've been cold and wet at the helm more times than I could count.
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?"
No. On the Bermuda trip, especially when I got seasick, I sometimes felt like I was the incompetent one.
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle?
Yes.
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather?
Yes/NO/Yes. I've sailed unfamiliar boats, sometimes in adverse weather, but never in an emergency.
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
Yes, but never very far from land. Do backup batteries (AA) count?
**And, finally, do you feel ready to cross an ocean?
Certainly not alone. I definitely need more offshore time.
--Joe
Quote from: Auspicious on April 24, 2011, 08:04:42 AM
Great post Curtis. Grog to you.
Quote from: curtis on April 24, 2011, 02:28:50 AM
It isn't the open ocean many days away from landfall.
Oceans are easy. It's the hard bits around the edges where we get in trouble.
I agree 100% to that.
Maybe I might twist it a bit and say, as to 'how much is enough', that once one has got to really KNOW and FEEL within oneself that Auspicious comment above actually is true, one probably has experience enough.
The trick is to hang in there until that concept is not just understood, intellectually, but felt at heart...
And then stay humble from there on, the Sea is Mighty after all
Curtis,
Hello and welcome aboard! That is some fancy formatting you have going on there... very nice. :)
All right, I feel I gotta share too.
Have seen this thread but not had the peace of mind to sit down and answer...
The Famous questionnaire.
** Have you ever sailed in the rain, including working at the mast or on the foredeck?
Oh Yes. A number of times, including in blinding squalls and a full gale.
Sweden is high latitude, (Stockholm 60 N) and the weather change rapidly even if rarely severe during the summer season.
** Have you ever sailed at night? In unfamiliar waters?
Many times, solo and with crew. Single-handed I did a number of 36 hr passages, dozing of the classic catnap style before taking the decision that I wanted to do this as a full time lifestyle.
** Have you ever sailed in fog?
Unfortunately, and without radar, I just hate it. In the old days, w/o radar or GPS, I would just leave the fairway, drop the hook and wait...
** Have you ever sailed (ie, not dropped all sail and motored) in 25+ knots? Have you ever hove-to your boat in 25+ knots?
Yes, 43 knots sustained at sea during 5-10 hours is my top note so far. that was actually quite nice, at night with growlers all around. Downwind ride and never took water into the cockpit. Never had to heave-to due to too bad conditions to sail, done it to wait for dawn, to rest, and as practice though
** Have you ever stayed in port due to unfavorable tides?
Yes
** Have you ever sailed in unfamiliar waters without a GPS?
Bought my first GPS in the early 2000nds, before that always without.
** Have you ever sailed in weather significantly different than the forecast you had when you got underway?
wish it were less often. forecasts are signifcantly better these days. In my experience it seems hardest to forecast wind speed in nice summer 'high pressure weather' when sea breeze makes a big impact in my home waters at least
** Have you ever had to alter course or immediate plans to avoid a container ship (or similar vessel)?
Numerous times, never had a near-death feeling though. Or maybe once...when we headed into to Dover harbour (UK south coast) to refuel after a passage over the North Sea inn dense fog (not too smart maybe) and between the breakwaters a huge ferry pooped out of the fog some 250 yards BEHIND us. That, I willingly confess, was scary!
** Have you ever engaged in Bridge-to-Bridge communications with a commercial ship (or any other vessel)?
Yes, a few times.
** Have you ever been aboard your boat at anchor in a blow greater than say 35 knots?
Yes, the worst was a christmas storm in Portugal a year and a half ago. 45 sustained, very gusty, and with a 180 degree windshift in the midst of it after some fomidable thunder storms. At night it was an ehilirating spectacle. Needless to say we were awake and ready to fire up the engine if the anchor hadn't hold.
** Have you ever emergency anchored due to engine or rig failure, to buy time to make repairs?
Once, as I recall it, the engine didn't take any raw water and was about to overheat. No wind, nightfall and shoals to starboard and a commercial fairway to starboard left few other options. fixed the problem and hi?isted sail in the morning. BTW, this event became the end of my first 36 hr single-handed passage, meant to be 3 days, but the wind failed...again
** Have you ever had to sail under a jury rig or contend with any rig failure while underway?
No jury rig, and no serious failures, the occasional sheet or halyard has come apart at inconvenient times
** Have you ever docked or anchored under sail?
Yes. A few times, but not that often.
** Have you ever had to maneuver, under sail, to pick up a Crew Overboard (or other object), even if just for practice?
Practice only. Rule on board is. Never fall over the side, if you do, your dead.
Seriously, one has to hold on and/or stay attached due to the conditions.
** Have you ever dealt with a knock-down or roll over?
Not that I can recall, an occassional broach, and sailing with wildly luffing sail(-s) during a squall, yes.
** Have you ever had to receive a tow or give one?
Yes, I've been towed once after the head gasket gave and the wind died just outside the entrance after we sailed 25 miles in +30 hours to get there...
the coast guard seemed to enjoy the practice. We just called for assistance on the VHF (all stations) and made sure to clarify that we were not in a n emergency situation. Slowly drifting away from the channel, offshore
** Have you ever been aground and gotten off by your own efforts (or patience)?
Numerous times, and a few times with the much appeciated assistance of so called 'stinkpotters' At some occassions, lots of horsepower can save the day.
** Have you ever had to contend with the boat taking on water from damage below the waterline?
No.
** Have you ever run an inlet from seaward at a time other than slack water? With wind and tide opposed?
Yes. Not a great idea. Done it due to appointment with other sailors. Don't like it at all
** Have you ever operated your boat sleep deprived (say less than 4 hours of sleep per day over a period of at least 2 days)? In pilot waters with other vessels and shipping?
Yes, see above about 36 hr passages solo
** Have you ever operated your vessel when you have not eaten for more than 16 hours? Cold and wet?
Abolutely not. There are bananas and raisins and chocolate if all else fails.
It can bemiserable enough without famine on top of it ;D
** Have you ever had to deal with incompetent crew who represented themselves as "good sailors with blue water experience?"
Had all kinds of crew, incompetent mostly and a few very competent. But so far, no liars. ;)
** Has everyone aboard who will stand a watch single handed the boat for a duration of at least one watch cycle?
Yes.
** Have you ever had to sail an unfamiliar boat, perhaps in an emergency? In adverse weather?
Not really, I mean mergency or severe weather. That said, I have uptil now done 95% of my sailing on my own vessels over the years
** Can you operate your vessel long enough to get to safe port with no mechanical propulsion and no electricity? Are either of these required to keep the boat and crew safe (including well fed)?
I'd like to think so... that would mean relying on laptop battery for navigation if needed, and we do not have emergency nav.lights. We do have (Auspicious brilliant suggestion) a 'spare battery bank' in form of a 30 AmpH MC battery that possibly could do it. Meant for emegency engine start up mainly. I gotta admit that I haven't given much thought to emergency lights....other than flashlights and headlights. White flares is also a good item to carry
**And, finally, do you feel ready to cross an ocean?
Very much looking forward to it in fact, the meditative state of mind that comes with detaching from modern means of communicaation, well,, with the exception of HF radio. Got my HAM liccense a couple of weeks ago. No Epirb though...
Cheers, s/v Nanna
Quote from: s/v Faith on April 24, 2011, 06:34:32 PM
That is some fancy formatting you have going on there... very nice. :)
Sure is. I tried to format my answers similarly using an MSWord table, but it all ran together when I put it into the forum message.
If you can sail half as well as you format text, you'll be crossing oceans in no time.
--Joe
Quote from: Auspicious on April 24, 2011, 08:04:42 AM
Great post Curtis. Grog to you.
Quote from: curtis on April 24, 2011, 02:28:50 AM
It isn't the open ocean many days away from landfall.
Oceans are easy. It's the hard bits around the edges where we get in trouble.
Yes the edges are trouble. Good navigation practices help with that. But in a small boat that is too beamy and light for blue water the waves that can only form with fetch and time are also trouble. With a CSF well over 2, its best I stay within a day or less of shore. Unless I chaged boats.
But I'm sure you knew that.
Cheers,
Curtis
Quote from: Oldrig on April 24, 2011, 12:32:00 PM
Hey Curtis,
Welcome aboard!
Thanks.
Quote from: Oldrig on April 24, 2011, 12:32:00 PM
Are you a catboat sailor? There are lots of those wonderful vessels out of Chatham.
No. I sail a Com-pac 23, a masthead sloop. There are a lot of catboats with Marshal being local and Arey's Pond Boat yard still making wood or fiberglass cats. Cats are great in shallow water which we have plenty of.
If there is interest I have photos of last year's Pleasant Bay cat boat race. One historic 28' cat, and one reproduction was there and that attracted many entries. They cut it off at 100 boats and split into three starts by size. The Narrows in Pleasant Bay is about 40' wide with about 20' of usable width at the North end but the race still went through Then Narrows.
Quote from: Oldrig on April 24, 2011, 12:32:00 PM
Anyway, great post--you actually sail through the Chatham Break. Good for you!
Its quite doable. Local knowledge is essential. It changes year to year which means you have to ask around, go to the Chatham lighthouse at mid to high tide and watch commercial fishing boats go through or at least figure out the latest buoy placement, go a back to the lighthouse at low tide and get a feel for where the shallow water is, and then go for it. You do have to cross a breaker line so only go for it when conditions aren't too rough. Repeat the quick survey each spring and after each major storm.
All sorts of small boats go out Chatham Break but they are all local. Much over 4' draft might not work though I have heard of 5' going through at dead high tide. I only draft 2'3".
If I didn't go out Chatham Break I'd be limited to daysailing in Pleasant Bay. Once out, the closest usable harbor is Nantucket. Nauset Inlet is closer but it makes Chatham Break look easy.
Quote from: Oldrig on April 24, 2011, 12:32:00 PM
Happy Easter!
--Joe
Happy Easter!
Curtis
ps - The formating can be done with the boxes labeled "BBC tags". The formating of tables on this BB software is just like HTML tables if that helps. If you don't know how HTML tables work its not obvious.
Laura and I have some friends who might argue the point about your Compac 23 being bluewater seaworthy.
This look familiar? Boat name is Tura Lura. The couple who owned her used to post here (Nick and Melissa). Pic was taken in Nassau Harbor as they were leaving to head back to the states. They had sailed the boat from Florida to Bimini, then the Berries (for several weeks) then Nassau, then the Exumas, down the chain to Little Farmers, then back up to Pipe Key, back to Nassau and then back to the US, winding up in Stuart, where they sold the boat.
Thus crossing the Gulf Stream twice, North West Passage ( and Tongue of The ocean (21000 feet deep) twice, among other stretches of very blue water.
I suspect the boat is well capable. Just needs experience and confidence.
By the way- this isn't meant to put you down- I deeply respect your care and concern in how you look at offshore trips. They DO require respect, and much of it, from all of us.
Laura and I recently made a 6 day passage across the Gulf of Mexico on board a 41 footer. We had some rough seas and strong headwinds and both agreed, we'd NOT like to do that exact trip aboard our own 25 footer, tough boat even as she is.
The BOAT would have done fine, I don't know that WE would have.
One more picture, with Melissa hauling anchor
Charlie,
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 24, 2011, 11:00:37 PM
Laura and I have some friends who might argue the point about your Compac 23 being bluewater seaworthy.
It depends on how a "blue water boat" is defined. I define a "blue water boat" as one that with the right crew can be relied on to safely cross an ocean even in the worst of conditions.
I agree that a CP23 can cross the Gulf Stream and quite a few have. I don't feel that make it a blue water boat. There is quite a difference between crossing an ocean and picking a brief weather window and making a 60 mile passage, even if it is over water with a 4 knot current.
That kind of sailing is light coastal cruising IMHO, Coastal cruising without the "light" is where you may sail down the coast maybe 50-150 miles off shore for days or weeks, keep an eye on the weather, and duck into a harbor if a nasty low appears. Blue water is where you check on a weather window to leave and head across an ocean. If half way a serious storm comes along, you have no choice but to endure it.
No offense intended to Nick and Melissa. I'd love to make the same crossing but first I'd need to make my way down the coast. I do sail on the Atlantic, make
I think we are just defining "blue water capable" differently. I would not leave in a CP23 and head for Europe. I'd also be very careful about the weather window any time I was making a passage along the coast with more than a day or two to the destination and no viable harbors in between. I don't think you are suggesting otherwise.
Curtis
:D
Can't argue with that definition. But once out of sight of land, you are pretty much "Blue water" no matter what boat you are in, so you best be able to deal with what comes up. We sail, at best, 5 knot boats (offshore). Storms often pop up quite quickly particularly in southern waters, and move at 15-30 mph. You can't outrun them, so you must be ready to deal with it.
Otherwise, I completely agree with your definition.
Our Tehani could well be a "blue water" boat, except I feel she isn't capable of comfortably toting the stores ( for two people) for prolonged ( say 4-6 week) passages. Not enough displacement. Kurt's Ariel 26 with one more foot of length and one more foot of beam would be- just large enough. James Baldwin's Atom (Triton 28) certainly is-he's proved that -twice around.
But considering that boats like Manry's Tinkerbell (12 feet) and Gerry Spiess in Yankee Girl (10 feet -also later sailed the same boat across the Pacific) safely crossed the Atlantic, size really doesn't define that capability. The sailor does.
I won't list some of the other smaller boats because I really believe they were stunts. Gerry and Robert 's passages were carefully thought out, carefully planned sails.
Understand- I'm NOT saying these are boats I'D want to do it in- I'm perfectly content with coastal cruising ;D Have zero desire to cross the Atlantic in a small sailboat. Hey- I really don't want to do it in a LARGE sailboat. Been out there on an aircraft carrier when we ducked a hurricane-THAT wasn't quite large enough :D So I'll continue to do exactly was you outline in your last sentence-
"I'd also be very careful about the weather window any time I was making a passage along the coast with more than a day or two to the destination and no viable harbors in between. "'
And that's exactly how we sail. On Tehani we've made passages of up to 3 days offshore, in carefully picked conditions. So we completely agree there.
But the BOATS could handle it. Most small sailboats, properly prepared, can take far more than the crews can.
One other point, and I bet Frank and S?V Faith will concur - that 60 mile passage across the Gulf Stream is NOT "light coastal cruising" ;D ;D once you are out there, in the stream, you are most definitely "blue water" :D
What constitutes 'offshore' is always an interesting discussion. I think curtis has a similar definition to mine, which is that 'going offshore' is a passage longer than a reliable (ha) weather forecast with no bailouts closer than a day away.
So Buzzards Bay to Cape May is NOT offshore
Ft Lauderdale to Bimini is NOT offshore
Beaufort NC to Marsh Harbour is marginally offshore
Norfolk VA to Bermuda is definitely offshore, as are ocean crossings (of course)
That isn't to say that features like the Gulf Stream aren't a challenge, but they aren't offshore.
It also isn't to say that a coastal passage over several days with watches set and no stops doesn't present challenges and have its own rewards, but it isn't offshore.
I kinda agree, as I did with Curtis, save for one point. The definition of "offshore" vs "Blue water voyaging"
If you are out of sight of land, and lets say it's at least half day away, you are most definitely "offshore" - may not be blue water voyaging, but offshore for sure.
Meaning, for me anyway, that you, and your boat, had best be prepared to deal with "offshore" situations. Just because land is relatively close by, doesn't change that fact. In fact, it just may make it worse. Because you could be lulled into thinking "if it gets bad, I'm close to shore- I can just duck in"
And that just might cost a boat, and even worse, a life.
For us, when land falls below the horizon, we ARE offshore. And our thinking shifts to an "offshore" mentality.
Quote from: Auspicious on April 25, 2011, 10:39:27 AM
What constitutes 'offshore' is always an interesting discussion. I think curtis has a similar definition to mine, which is that 'going offshore' is a passage longer than a reliable (ha) weather forecast with no bailouts closer than a day away.
So Buzzards Bay to Cape May is NOT offshore
Ft Lauderdale to Bimini is NOT offshore
Beaufort NC to Marsh Harbour is marginally offshore
Norfolk VA to Bermuda is definitely offshore, as are ocean crossings (of course)
That isn't to say that features like the Gulf Stream aren't a challenge, but they aren't offshore.
It also isn't to say that a coastal passage over several days with watches set and no stops doesn't present challenges and have its own rewards, but it isn't offshore.
Thanks for this discussion, guys...this is excellent stuff.
For my part, I would argue...TO A POINT...(that is, I won't take my point too far), if the boat itself is capable and set up to handle a "jump" of 60 or 150 miles on the ocean, then it is, by some metric anyway, 'blue water capable.'
It is statistically possible to cross the Atlantic ocean and never encounter winds greater than 25 knots and no more seas than associated with that. It is also possible to encounter bad, bad conditions crossing from FL to Bimini or Beaufort to Marsh Harbor.
If the boat can handle one, it can handle the other...again, to a degree.
As for distance to safe harbor?
20 miles offshore can be deadly...its possible you don't have the 5+ hours it takes to get back in.
What we are ultimately talking about here is the SAILOR not the boat...Both Curtis and Charlie have stated that THEY would not cross an ocean in THEIR CURRENT BOAT. In both cases...the boat itself could possibly make the trip successfully (and many lesser boats have).
I think this is one of the most important threads we have on SailFar. It began with a question not of "when am I ready," but "when is enough to avoid criticism when things go wrong?"
At the time the thread was started, there was a seeming rash of boat incidents that had the 'Net sailors all a-twitter with armchair criticism. The OP was asking an EXCELLENT question - at what point can this criticism be quelled with "shut up, the guy knew what he was doing."
As we each have examined this question, and the broader one in "when am I really ready," I have been fascinated by the fact that pretty much all of us have said some variation of:
"I've done this and that, I've encountered this and that, but I STILL have a lot to learn."
I believe it is humility in regard to the sea...open ocean, coastal ocean, bay or inland lake doesn't matter...that makes us better, more capable sailors. The boat is the platform upon which we work, but 'blue water capable' ultimately comes down more to personal levels of comfort and personal compromises in terms of strength and seaworthiness.
The purpose of my list was not to say "you need these skills to be 'ready,' and if you have them, you are good to go." PLEASE PLEASE no one reading the list of questions take it that way.
What it was meant to get at was "confidence" as it related to "competence." Sailor A may have the skills to be "ready," but lack the confidence in those skills...that's just as potentially damaging as having the confidence but not the skills themselves. Through experience...
Quote
Experience is the name we give our mistakes
--Oscar Wilde
We gain BOTH skills and the confidence in them. THAT was the premise of my list of questions.
The strongest, most 'blue water capable' boat on the planet can get someone hurt on the ocean, a bay or inland lake...the body of water is less a factor, and the boat is less a factor than the sailor. Admittedly, it is about statistics...weak boat + open ocean + marginally competent sailor is a greater chance for failure than strong boat + inland lake + novice sailor.
The relative weights of the terms in this equation
probability of success = boat capability + water sailed + sailor/crew competence
are VERY difficult to pin down. It's easy to get preoccupied on one term vs another. And, sorry for the math parlance, but they are not independent factors. A good sailor would not likely choose a poor boat, etc.
Anyway, again...thanks for the discussion (and thanks, Okabow for starting this thread a while back). The introspectiveness caused by asking the question is valuable in its own right.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 25, 2011, 11:28:00 AM...one of the most important threads we have on SailFar. It began with a question not of "when am I ready," but "when is enough to avoid criticism when things go wrong?".....
.....I believe it is humility in regard to the sea...open ocean, coastal ocean, bay or inland lake doesn't matter...that makes us better, more capable sailors. The boat is the platform upon which we work, but 'blue water capable' ultimately comes down more to personal levels of comfort and personal compromises in terms of strength and seaworthiness......
The 'lack of humility' is one of the greatest dangers a Sailor can face. I see it expressed in the arrogance that some show in their replies when things go wrong for others....
... there IS value in learning from others errors. There is NO HONOR in elevating ones self above those who have provided the lesson.
Charlie, you and I use the word 'offshore' differently. Thanks okay. We can each remember that when ready the other's posts. That I consider 'coastal' some of the jumps you consider 'offshore' doesn't diminish the challenge or preparation necessary.
John, I truly cherish your thoughts and thank you for sharing them. I offer my own humble observation that sailing oceans is less difficult than many think, but that many are less ready than they believe.
Craig, learning from the mistakes of others is indeed a mark of intelligence. Willingness to share our mistakes with others that they may learn is a mark of courage and compassion.
If I might add (humbly) a little reflection based on a different discipline - wilderness medicine - "wilderness" within that concept is outside the golden hour of rescue and conventional medical treatment. Under those circumstances, I might reset a fracture if not doing so is going to cause possible loss of the limb and resetting it will restore blood flow to the limb. I was thumbing through an old copy of "Sail" this morning and reading a story of a fellow sailing along the coast of Texas who got caught in a cyclonic event, his sailboat grounded heeled over in the mud well above the tide mark. He apparently spent 4 days digging and other things plus the assistance of a couple of powerboaters to get himself free. While granted that his problem occured at the "hard bits around the edges", it could just as easily be a remote reef or other location stranded.
Without getting too far off the mark of where the thread was intended to go, it just seems that conditions - and mindset - play a large part in the definition of offshore. Or at least they should. I really like the approach almost everyone here has, as it mirrors my thoughts in terms of preparedness, planning and equipping my vessel. Of the powerboaters I know, almost none carry flares, anchors, extra food and water. Or a change of clothes. I can understand why they wouldn't carry a sail repair kit, but I like having one. You just never know.
I'm actually pondering, since I have a portable 12 volt air compressor for the Jeep anyway, packing away a few packaged truck tire inner tubes... instant on-demand floatation in the event of a holing.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 25, 2011, 11:28:00 AM
20 miles offshore can be deadly...its possible you don't have the 5+ hours it takes to get back in.
I should point out that I am currently reading
Graveyard of the Atlantic: Shipwrecks of the North Carolina Coast by David Stick.
An awful lot of sailors have died within sight of land.
Reiteration of Dave's point that it is the hard edges that present the real problems?
Anyway, I was thinking about this "coastal hopping" vs "truly offshore" thing a little more. I think SOME of the issue is that one is viewed as 'safer' than the other by many people. Only viewed that way by inexperience sailors? Coastal hopping has the
illusion of the safety net of safe harbors close by.
But where are you when you need to run for a safe harbor? TONS of sailors have come to grief trying to get into a harbor in bad conditions. It's often been said "searoom is your friend." In bad conditions, being 100+ miles out may be safer than trying to run in for 'safe harbor.' Trying to convince some people of that is like, yes, pushing a wet noodle up a rope with your nose.
Just wanted to emphasize that coastal hopping only APPEARS safer than offshore. Maybe true blue water voyaging asks more of the boat, but coastal perhaps asks more of the skipper.
It seems that here on sailfar we are often discussing the illusions, beliefs, myths and conventional wisdom "popular" in the sailing community that tend to not hold water in the real world.
It just fascinates me how many folks on the 'Net use the "stay close so you can run in if things get bad outside" rationalization. Reminding them that generally, the most dangerous thing for a boat is land proves ultimately futile.
Of course, I think these are the same ones that believe (and act on the belief) that being tied alongside in a marina is the safest place for the boat in a hurricane. The idea of anchoring out in a well researched hidey hole with adequate ground tackle boggles their minds.
Whether heading out of the jetties or facing the potential of a truly destructive tropical cyclone, fear is a powerful influence on beliefs, motivations and actions.
Maybe that's a deviation from the discussion of experience, but I think it's related. Fear can also prevent us from getting the experience we need.
lol-OK Auspicious, how about if we use the terms the old time cruisers used. Instead of Blue water/coastal, let's call it ON soundings or OFF soundings. Once past the 100 fathom curve, I'm sure offshore :D
John- that's basically what I've been saying. Once you are out there, your mind better be set to "Offshore" cause if the doodoo hits the rotator, you gotta deal with being OUT there.
Oh- and I've really enjoyed participating in this thread. Brings out points that I and others may not have considered.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 25, 2011, 08:31:51 PM
Anyway, I was thinking about this "coastal hopping" vs "truly offshore" thing a little more. I think SOME of the issue is that one is viewed as 'safer' than the other by many people. Only viewed that way by inexperience sailors? Coastal hopping has the illusion of the safety net of safe harbors close by.
Bingo. Buy that man a grog. *grin* "When in doubt, go out"
The never-ending thread on SailNet (?) about the loss of Rule 62 in the Bahamas is illuminating. Bad weather and (we think) seasickness led to a decision to run to a safe harbor that was clearly not safe, or at least not accessible. Someone died and a boat was destroyed as a result of that decision. Continuing on to the BVI, or at least to the Tongue of the Ocean, and staying off soundings (*grin*) would have surely resulted in a different outcome at the cost of some discomfort or a little misery.
Good judgment and good decision-making are key to making good sailors.
I too greatly enjoy this line of discussion. I hope I don't come across as believing I have all the answers. I know I don't. I have spent a goodly amount of time off soundings and hope that sharing what I have learned will allow SailFar'ers to make new and creative mistakes instead of repeating the same old boring ones that I have already made.
Quote from Auspicious-
"I too greatly enjoy this line of discussion. I hope I don't come across as believing I have all the answers. I know I don't."
Nope- not to me.. I first sailed in 1957 and I'm still learning. I just hope Curtis doesn't feel we're hitting on him.. Wasn't the intention at all.
Fun topic to read. None of us ever stop learning and most of look back and laugh at past mistakes. Some were funny...others down right dangerous. We all have read about sailing and some even taken lessons. We've learned basic navigation and have GPS's and VHF's etc.
I find the one ingredient missing at times is the ability to really sail your boat. I've often watched people head out without a true comfort level of handling their boat 1st.
*have you practiced reefing sails in strong wind/waves 1st? (calm doesn't count) The 1st time shouldn't when it's needed.
*have you practiced being hove-to in strong wind/waves 1st? All boats are different and trim different. Don't 'learn' out there when it's needed
*have you moved about both above and below deck in steep waves. Being inside a washing machine comes to mind. Figure out how before needed...and it will be needed
I peck this out because so much can be read about but the above can only be experienced.
As to boat size.......we all know many famous passages on lil boats as well as a circumnavigation on an 18fter. I wouldn't...but.........
Captain Smollet, Auspicious, Charlie,
Great conversation this forum has going. I think we are splitting hairs when we try to make a distinction between blue water and offshore. I'm fairly sure I've read definitions of light coastal, coastal, and offshore somewhere and I think the Europeans have boating standards that define these sort of terms for the purpose of rating the suitability of boats for a given purpose.
According to Adlard Coles, and other authorities on heavy weather, its not the wind that gets you it is waves that will get you. The huge swells (40-50 ft, btw - the record is 132 in the North Atlantic AFAIK) with breakers over the top can only grow that big with fetch, wind, and time. In a well handled small boat with deep reefs in the main and a small headsail it is not the 40-50 knot gusts when a bad thunderstorm blows over and is done in a few hours that can sink you.
Most thunderstorms don't carry much over 35 knot gusts and my wife has poured champagne in 25 knots and 35 knot gusts. That was protected water, protected by 150 yeards of sandbar between us and the Atlantic. You won't get blown over by the wind into a full roll. You might get knocked down and get your spreaders wet. We did almost get knocked down in a gust (no spreader dip), but the good news is we didn't spill any champagne.
The point is really that the types of storms that generate gail winds for days at a time are predictable within a 2-3 day time period. Thundershowers are not nearly as predictable but they don't last long. That is why coastal cruising is quite a bit safer than blue water sailing aka offshore passagemeking. There are also some harbors that can be entered in almost any condition or at least any condition that could develop in 12 hours or less.
Anyway, the CP23 is roughly half the weight of a Flicka, Cape Dory 22, an Arial, and 1/3 the weight of a Triton. Its also beamier for its length than any of those. Roll it and there is a good chance it will turtle and then eventually sink. At least so says the CSF if you think there is any validity to those numbers.
And if you read the Practical Sailor review of the CP23, you should reinforce the main bulkhead tabbing, better attach the main bulkhead to the cabin top (alread broke that myself and reattached it), and up the standing rigging from 5/32 to 3/16 just for starters. Its not build for blue water. It can make great little coastal cruiser but you have to be aware that it does have limits.
For example, you can break the main bulkhead free of the cabin top on a CP23. I've done it and all it took was 25 knots of wind and a pounding into 5-6 foot waves. That wasn't even close to the punishment a boat would need to endure during a bout of bad weather when blue water sailing. (And yes I had too much sail up and could have been sailing less aggressively and reduced the pounding - I hadn't even tied the first reef yet - no long term harm done). I haven't done all the other things that Practical Sailor suggested are needed for my boat and maybe I will in time.
I'm not at all offended but It seems like I said that I'm new on this forum and my boat was not a blue water boat and some people have taken it to mean that I'm a timid new sailor. I just recognize the limitation of the vessel that I sail today and I can live with those limitations. (I can live with it for now at least).
Curtis
Quote from: curtis on April 28, 2011, 01:27:10 AM
but It seems like I said that I'm new on this forum and my boat was not a blue water boat and some people have taken it to mean that I'm a timid new sailor
NO NO NO NO NO. :(
I don't think ANYONE here is thinking that at all.
We are just bantering ... not unlike what it would be like if we were all sitting around a club house or bar making conversation.
PLEASE don't take any of this discussion to be directed AT you...like criticism or something.
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly welcome your input, and I KNOW that the thought of you being a "timid sailor" has not even entered my mind - not even for a second.
But if I may continue in the spirit of "just a discussion,"
Quote
Its not build for blue water. It can make great little coastal cruiser but you have to be aware that it does have limits.
This is true of ALL of our boats.
The Alberg 30 was not built for blue water. Alberg was commissioned to design a boat for a Canadian sailor, and later the group that ordered them for production were likewise out of Canada.
There are a number of areas of the Alberg 30 that must get attention before the boat "should be" taken offshore. For example, the production chainplate bolts are undersized and the wooden mast support is a weak point (on the older boats). Both have failed - in offshore conditions during a circumnavigation. But with proper preps, many many A-30's have made ocean crossings, more than a couple circumnavigations and is considered a VERY good boat for voyaging.
It is my personal opinion that EVERY boat requires such attention and "upgrades" before heading "out." Many a boat sold as "blue water capable" have come to grief (Ken Solo's boat, I cannot recall her name, comes to mind), and many, many, "oh that's not a blue water boat" have made the trip(s) with 'proper upgrades.'
I maintain the position that this difference lies in the heart of the sailor - some realize just how tenuous our man-made hardware (20 ft, 40 ft, 120 ft boat doesn't matter) is 'offshore' and work hard to gain redundancy and back-up plans. Others accept the advertising as-is and head to the briny deep without ever looking at the rig. Most that buy a blue water boat never leave sight of land and some never even leave the dock.
So, in the end, I AGREE with you 100%. In my opinion, one of the marks of the skilled sailor is knowing his boat - her strengths and weaknesses, as well as what she is best suited to do.
Curtis- as I said- I hope you don't feel we're hitting on you. Never the intent, and things of that nature are frowned on by all of us here.
Just a very intersting thread, and several very good points.
Personally I was not aware of the internal problems with the CP 23. Good to know. Of course when we rebuilt Tehani we did many small( or not so small) changes to improve her strength and offshore safety.
So hang in there- your thoughts and viewpoints are as valid as all of ours.
And it's good to have you aboard.
And did I mention that a sent a round of grog for Curtis?
I likes the cut o' yer jib, matey!
This question of experience has multiple dimensions.
We've talked about necessary skills and we've talked about choice of boat (a matter of experience, in my opinion).
There are a few things that define the sailfar 'spirit,' and few gray areas. Is it really boat size? What gadgets are "okay?" We've hit this ball back and forth a bit lately, and I think we have a good intuitive handle on KISS and where the line is that non-KISS becomes "bad."
I recently read something that I think makes the point rather well. I know I wax philosophic more than most here, but SOME of this, to me, seems like if you don't have to know what you are doing, or work for what you get...something fundamental is lost. All the newish tools, and even engines, make "sailing" and "boating" accessible to those that don't really want to put anything of substance into their goals.
From a blog post made about a nighttime sail on the Chesapeake a few years ago:
Quote
We were grateful for our radar and computer navigation system, which turned the potentially hazardous nighttime navigation into what was almost a video game. We weaved our way among the lighted and unlighted buoys, watching our progress across the computer chart, poking our heads up frequently to verify the blinking reds and greens.
In the hands of a proper, competent sailor, these tools are, indeed, quite the convenience.
But what do they breed in beginners?
What does it say about this particular couple that with the presence of these navigation tools on board that they were apparently NOT maintaining a proper lookout and not taking ANY precautions to guard against failure of their "video game?"
Maybe they WERE taking such precautions and just did not get into it on the blog posting, so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
But it does bring to mind the larger question: who's reading that blog and thinking, "that's what I need to cruise the Chesapeake and off the east coast."
What if that beginner then chooses not to gain experience and develop skills but instead chooses to rely on gadgetry, systems and gear? Without the experience to judge the merits of gadgetry, what influences the beginner's decision to rely on it?
Captain
What bothers me about people who choose to have all the latest gadgets is that they start to think they know what is best for me then they work for legislation making their toys mandatory for me.
Quote from: mrb on April 29, 2011, 09:41:00 PM
Captain
What bothers me about people who choose to have all the latest gadgets is that they start to think they know what is best for me then they work for legislation making their toys mandatory for me.
The reason for my apprehension about AIS...
Quote from: s/v Faith on April 29, 2011, 09:44:47 PM
The reason for my apprehension about AIS...
I agree with the concern for regulation, but it's becoming clear that in areas with a lot of commercial traffic you are well served to at least have a receiver.
Grog to you all.
BTW- I began my sentence with "I'm not at all offended" and I appreciate the open and candid conversation.
Back to the topic of readying a boat for more blue water sailing.
Patrick Childress (I think I have his name spelled right) of Newport RI, circumnavigated in a Catalina 27. He knew what he was getting into but it was what he could afford at the time. When asked by others what they should do to ready their Catalina 27 for blue water, his advice is to start with another boat.
Common advice is to make sure the CSF is below 2, well below 2 is best, like 1.7. The CP23 is 2.18 so that says too beamy, too light, may turtle if rolled. The Alberg 30 has a CSF of about 1.7. This is dictated by the design and can't be "upgraded". I lot of other things can be upgraded but that can't.
So the best advice to a CP23 owner is if they want to sail blue water is the same as for the C27, and that advice is to start with another boat. There is a lot the CP23 can handle safely with a few changes, careful watch of the weather, and a good (very small) crew, but crossing an ocean is not one of them.
Here is roughly my strategy (from memory, no chart in front of me) when doing more than a daysail from our little puddle known as Pleasant Bay.
Time departure for 2 hours or more before high tide on the ocean, that's roughly high tide inside Pleasant Bay. Make sure the wind is blowing and predicted to remain at least 10-15 all day, better yet 15-20, and 20-25 is OK too. Make sure no truly foul weather is predicted. The two hours takes into account fighting the opposing current (peaks over 4 knots at Strong Island) and sailing to windward and then arriving at Chatham Break at roughly high tide. With a good wind that will be less, and the Chatham Break will be easier. (Remeber, I have no engine). Once outside, the current along Monomoy Island will be opposing at about 1.5 knots and the sail is not quite to windward. The current is lighter further out, so tack out, then tack back to the entrance. Again, light wind will mean very little VMG. The current will die down and if all goes well arrive at Polluck Rip at about slack with a favorable current building. In light air, Polluck Rip is gentle, but in a wind it is very rough near the edges (15 ft) and not too choppy in the deep water (mostly 40-60 ft). If the wind is very light there is a danger of being swept across the TIde Rips when Polluck Rip takes a turn to port at Butler's Hole but the current doesn't. From there, the channel gradually widens and in light conditions once safely beyond Tide Rips the shoals can be cut. Otherwise stay in the channel until the shoals are deep and then change course to starboard toward Nantucket Harbor, or start tacking in normal prevailing winds which would be on the nose. In most conditions it is safe for a small boat to tack into the lighthouse red sector zone in 10-15 feet of water and not have any chance of being bothered by high speed ferries or commercial fishermen on their way back with their catch in the channel. That is probably the safest place to be, out of the way of others.
If weather were to worsen to the point where Polluck Rip can't be entered, a long tack past the entrance and past Nentucket Shoal brings you to Great Round Shoal Channsl which is wide and deep and can be entered almost any time. This is the alternate way to get into Nantucket Sound from the North. If it may get so bad the Nantucket Harbor can't be entered (which takes a lot since the entrance is well protected by two jetties) then head to Provincetown instead. Leaving Race Point plenty of room, Provincetown Harbor can be entered in any condition. I've never had to resort to either of these tactics. Going back through Chatham Break if weather turn bad is not an option.
The way back is down wind in prevailing winds and there is less problems with opposing currents. I've anchored for a few hours to overnight, in light air at various places waiting for a favorable current. One place is just off Nantucked waiting for a favorable current in Polluck Rip. Another stop is just off Monomoy waiting for the current in the other direction. Another is outside Chatham Break. Another is inside Chatham Break, but outside the channel when the state of tide made entry possible, but crossing the 1 ft MLW spot in the channel impossible. Small motorboats can still clear this spot so staying well outside the channel is still necessary.
Once in Nantucket Sound, there are a number of places to go, all about a day apart that make for good small boat sailing destinations.
I have a tiny mainsail and had a second reef added to it so it can be made quite small. I have a roller furler with a 110% jib and a 60% jib in case the wind picks up. I've changed sails in 20 kinots just to practice and found it easy enough. I've been in up to 35 knot gusts, but never out long enough that I'd rather put the 60% jib up than sail with the mostly furled 110. If I had a ways to go, I'd change sails since the shape of a "reefed" roller furler headsail is rather poor.
Given the amount of vacation time I get, this sort of sailing is about right for me. I don't need a blue water boat to visit Martha's Vineyard from Cape Cod, so the CP23 meets my needs. The CP23 is more than adequate to handle this sort of sailing safely. It could be safely pushed a lot further up and down the coast, but not across an ocean. That is what I meant by "I just recognize the limitation of the vessel that I sail today and I can live with those limitations. (I can live with it for now at least)." I may later want to cross an ocean, but if I do so, it will be in another boat.
Curtis
Curtis,
As a Buzzards Bay-Vineyard Sound-Nantucket Sound-Narragansett Bay sailor, I'd say your CP23 is a good boat for your kind of sailing. My CD 25D is just about right for me, but I use the tiny diesel engine a lot--especially passing through Woods Hole Passage (I've done it under sail alone, but always had the engine at the ready) and the Canal (required by law and strictly enforced).
Have you ever put in at Lake Tashmoo?
Best,
--Joe
Quote from: Oldrig on May 05, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
Curtis,
As a Buzzards Bay-Vineyard Sound-Nantucket Sound-Narragansett Bay sailor, I'd say your CP23 is a good boat for your kind of sailing. My CD 25D is just about right for me, but I use the tiny diesel engine a lot--especially passing through Woods Hole Passage (I've done it under sail alone, but always had the engine at the ready) and the Canal (required by law and strictly enforced).
Have you ever put in at Lake Tashmoo?
Best,
--Joe
Joe,
Yes, you absolutely must have an engine to use the Cape Cod Canal. The same applies to the Cheasapeake and Delaware Canal. I won't be able to use either one without an engine.
I have not been through the Woods Hole channel but what I've read or heard is that the current runs across the channel much of the way and those even with strong motors who "aim for the next buoy" without taking bearings or compensating for side currents end up on the submerged rocks. So there is another bit of seamanship or lack of. A sailor is more likely to be aware of the need to account for set of the current and also more likely to look at tide and current tables and time an entry near slack.
I've sailed past Mememsha and have been to Lake Tashmoo by land (bicycle) but never entered by boat since you can't stay overnight. Why the question? [We are quite off topic]
btw- Just got back from BVI. Not in my CP23. Admiral Tara and I chartered. Thats why I didn't respond for a while.
Curtis
Quote from: curtis on May 14, 2011, 09:57:35 PM
I have not been through the Woods Hole channel but what I've read or heard is that the current runs across the channel much of the way and those even with strong motors who "aim for the next buoy" without taking bearings or compensating for side currents end up on the submerged rocks. So there is another bit of seamanship or lack of. A sailor is more likely to be aware of the need to account for set of the current and also more likely to look at tide and current tables and time an entry near slack.
Very good point. We have a few examples of side-setting currents down here in the south, but fortunately, more with submerged sand than those rocks of which you speak. Well, since one of the ones I mentioned was Winyah Bay Inlet with it's ruined jetties awash (or under water), I guess we *DO* have rocks, too.
Perhaps this introduces another question for "The List:"
** Have you ever navigated a marked, but narrow, channel with a side-setting current? Without GPS/Chartplotter to help keep you in the channel?
Grog for the bold part. I think sailors in general tend to be more 'in touch' with the local environment at least in part due to the "limitations" of their vessel.
Quote from: curtis on May 14, 2011, 09:57:35 PM
I've sailed past Mememsha and have been to Lake Tashmoo by land (bicycle) but never entered by boat since you can't stay overnight. Why the question? [We are quite off topic]
Curtis,
Sorry for getting off-topic. My question has nothing to do with experience at sea (well, not much). It's just that Lake Tashmoo is one of my favorite anchorages, especially at the head of the "lake."
And yes, you can anchor there, provided that your head-discharge valve is sealed. The town of Tisbury even has a pump-out boat assigned to the lake, because it's so popular.
But to get back on topic:
You're absolutely correct that wind-only sailors acquire a special awareness of the importance of set, drift and wind that too-frequent motoring can atrophy. And your new question is a great one.
Best,
--Joe
Just came upon this... on the subject of motorless sailing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVXdGar5OHg) in current--and experience...
Guess what they needed was some Inward Bound sailboats... ;)
Maybe in this case, failure was the lesson.
No wind on a very adverse current....
Quote from: curtis
So there is another bit of seamanship or lack of. A sailor is more likely to be aware of the need to account for set of the current
Some lessons you just have learn "the hard way." ;D
Does it always flow like that there, or does it slack?
Also, I think they showed some remarkably good boat handling...tight quarters, strong current, four rowers. Virtual Grog to those boat crews.
I agree that the boat-handling on both boats was pretty good. I did notice a line in the water on the front boat, looks like the mizzen sheet.
I heard someone on the shore talking to someone on the second boat talking about current, and the person aboard said they were a couple of hours early and thought they would try anyway.
I think I would have taken a nap.
On the subject of experience, I'm taking an HR43 from Annapolis to Wickford RI over Memorial Day weekend with crew of 5 including one pretty inexperienced person (doubling her up on watch with one of my best female crew) so I'll be helping raise the global experience level by a bit. *grin*
Very Cool. Pretrip grog just for going, and for giving an inexperienced person a chance.
The Outward Bound Program is about pushing people hard, testing abilities and endurance, and finding out where those limits are--and gaining experience. A friend of mine went through the (two or three week?) program here on the coast of Maine, in the older style 30-foot wooden boats. The crews would live at sea for days in the open boats, stay on deserted islands eating wild food...clams, mussels etc.
This situation in the video is definitely a different situation from a motorless cruising sailboat (so I didn't intend it to be a comment about that) --where you would (as you said) wait for a more favorable tide and current, or anchor nearby and take a dinghy in... Still I thought that it was interesting to watch. I agree, John...good for them for getting out there and finding out what they can do.
Auspicious, fair winds for your trip. Sounds like an ideal learning experience for your newbie. :)
Laura and I were guests for a weekend on an Outward Bound school docks in Everades City a year ago. Neat group of counselors there.
They led ten day canoeing trips through the Everglades
When I departed Norfolk Va. bound for Bantry Ireland on June 1 2008 I had done 2 open water passages across the Gulf of Mexico and sailed 1,000 miles along the East coast from the chesapeake to Long Island sound and out into the Atlantic and back. I was still not prepared for the forces encountered. My salvation came in the form of the sailors time out, heaving to. When fear began to take hold I would ask myself if my life was in immediate danger? Being aboard a Pearson Triton the answer was of course no. I then set about doing what needed doing. the first lesson learned was to trust the Beaufort wind scale, which is now posted prominately in the salon. Next a heavy weather strategy was devised. Sail to F6, Heave to at F7, deploy the sea anchor at F8, get religion at F10. As it worked out the sea anchor was never deployed. Another lesson learned was that Deep Blue has a sweet spot and sails best between 3.5 and 5 knots. The boat stands up and less water is taken over the bow. Riggingg loads are much lighter and the boat and I arrived safe and sound. An attack of common sense changed my destination to Horta in the Azores. The lesson for would be Atlantic crossers here is have a very consevative sailing plan, do not punish your boat, and know every system aboard. If an old backpacker from Co. can do it so can you. Hope this is helpful Phil
Phil,
Your comment, clearly based on real experience, is most apropos of this discussion.
As a singlehander, I've found heaving-to to be an extremely useful skill, and one I practice many times, especially when reefing while under way.
Welcome aboard,
--Joe
Quote from: phil416 on May 24, 2011, 10:53:13 AM
When I departed Norfolk Va. bound for Bantry Ireland on June 1 2008 I had done 2 open water passages across the Gulf of Mexico and sailed 1,000 miles along the East coast from the chesapeake to Long Island sound and out into the Atlantic and back. I was still not prepared for the forces encountered. My salvation came in the form of the sailors time out, heaving to. When fear began to take hold I would ask myself if my life was in immediate danger? Being aboard a Pearson Triton the answer was of course no. I then set about doing what needed doing. the first lesson learned was to trust the Beaufort wind scale, which is now posted prominately in the salon. Next a heavy weather strategy was devised. Sail to F6, Heave to at F7, deploy the sea anchor at F8, get religion at F10. As it worked out the sea anchor was never deployed. Another lesson learned was that Deep Blue has a sweet spot and sails best between 3.5 and 5 knots. The boat stands up and less water is taken over the bow. Riggingg loads are much lighter and the boat and I arrived safe and sound. An attack of common sense changed my destination to Horta in the Azores. The lesson for would be Atlantic crossers here is have a very consevative sailing plan, do not punish your boat, and know every system aboard. If an old backpacker from Co. can do it so can you. Hope this is helpful Phil
Welcome aboard Phil!
Glad to have you with us. I really like your suggestion which I read as 'change the subjective to objective'. This is especially useful with crew. It is funny, neither my wife nor my dog ever got panicked... even going through a hurricane. Other folks on other boats have panicked for no apparent reason (IMHO).
Confronting the unreasonable with reason is an excellent antidote... even if it would require the addition of a anemometer.
Grog to you, glad you are here.
Thanks for the kind comments. I found that fear comes from being unsure of the consequences of the next course of action. For me I always chose the most conservative approach available. Aboard Deep Blue I reef until the little knot in my belly goes away. Suprisingly very litlle speed is lost. As for aneometers, my obsevation has been that they are one of the most troublesome gadgets aboard sailboats. When I felt I was sailing in 40+ knots of wind the Beaufort Scale revealed wind speeds of about 30 knots. Once learned Beaufort will reliably guide your actions. I look forward to hearing more from others who have taken another tack. As I gained experience I was able to carry more canvas and my passages became far quicker without sailing beyond my comfort zone. Fair Winds Phil
Quote from: phil416 on May 24, 2011, 12:10:11 PM
As I gained experience I was able to carry more canvas and my passages became far quicker without sailing beyond my comfort zone. Fair Winds Phil
Exactly!
One step at a time. That said, being conservative in reefing/sail area is always good IMHO, especially single- or shorthanded. Aren't we all short-handed on cruising boats?
Thanks for sharing your experience and many more safe miles to you!
Are you in the Azores now?
Quote from: maxiSwede on May 24, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
That said, being conservative in reefing/sail area is always good IMHO, especially single- or shorthanded.
Question:
How many folks here take in an EXTRA reef at night as a matter of "Standard Procedure?" I've heard of people doing/recommending this, and just wondered who here practiced this particular 'conservative' approach.
I don't do this (and have not done this) as a matter of SOP...but would look at each night watch separately. I do think it is a good idea to plan sail changes, when possible, at the watch change so both watch standers are awake and on deck. This we do - again, when possible.
This might mean taking in a preemptive reef quite a bit before (and if) things deteriorate...but if it looks good for the next watch (we typically run 4 hour watches aboard
Gaelic Sea), we might just leave it til the next watch change.
By the way, welcome aboard and good sailing post grog for Phil...
If we fly the chute, we usually douse it at nightfall (exception if we wouldn't move at all without it) When th winds pick up we do want to be both awake and active to douse it even if it's in a sock.
This goes for the assymetrical in a sock but the drifter albeit smaller area, is at least as much 'hassle' to get down.
Otherwise if the conditions makes it likely we could need to take a reef, we mostly do before dark aswell. It costs a fraction of a knot, often no loss of speed at all, and it's always easier to shake a reef out if needed.
The above goes for when w have reason to expect squalls too of course.
As for taking reefs and shaking them out (and headsail changes) I tend to do it on my own when on watch (out of habit if nothing else) but Isabelle wakes me if needed when she's on watch.
Interested to hear how other cruising couples does... ???
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 24, 2011, 02:02:32 PM
Quote from: maxiSwede on May 24, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
That said, being conservative in reefing/sail area is always good IMHO, especially single- or shorthanded.
Question:
How many folks here take in an EXTRA reef at night as a matter of "Standard Procedure?" I've heard of people doing/recommending this, and just wondered who here practiced this particular 'conservative' approach.
I have done the reef at night thing on several occasions. Depends on where we are anchored, and what the weather looks like. If in a very well protected spot, and/or if the weather is good, we don't bother.
If anchored in an open anchorage, and iffy weather, then I will sometimes tie in the reef before dark. It's not a bad idea, and I THINK I originally read about in in a Hiscock book.
One thing for certain- we leave the sailcovers OFF while at anchor for overnight, so we can get under way more easily if needed.
What a great resource for the sailor contemplating a blue water cruise, I wish I had logged in here before I left.
I always reefed the main before going to sleep, and set the proper foresail, never the drifter. The one time I did not the wind kicked up and tore the goose neck track from the mast. The repair took 12 hours. The new srategy that emerged was to brew a pot of tea at sundown, assuring that I would awake periodically. Deep Blue now rests in Solomons Md. undergoing refit for her next adventure. From the Azores, it was off to Portugal, Madiera, Canaries, Cap Verde, Grenada, isla Mujeres, Ft. Myers Fl. and the ICW back to the Chesapeake. When I had crew more sail was carried as help was always available. When I departed Norfolk, the average time to reef my main was 1.5 hours. An inexscusable failure to practice. Constant improvement to the system and practice reduced that to less than 5 minutes. Hopefully a valuable lesson to others contemplating such an adventure. Highlighting our errors can be invaluable to those planning to cast their lines. Fair winds Phil
Small hijack -
Sailing up the Chesapeake yesterday from Deale to Annapolis I saw a great SailFar boat, about 26' with wind gen, a nice looking wind vane, and under full sail heading South at about 4 kts in just under 10 knots of W wind.
Not sure they saw me give them a full salute from the aft deck on the HR43 I was delivering.
Quote from: phil416 on May 25, 2011, 11:04:20 AM
What a great resource for the sailor contemplating a blue water cruise, I wish I had logged in here before I left.
I always reefed the main before going to sleep, and set the proper foresail, never the drifter. The one time I did not the wind kicked up and tore the goose neck track from the mast. The repair took 12 hours. The new srategy that emerged was to brew a pot of tea at sundown, assuring that I would awake periodically. Deep Blue now rests in Solomons Md. undergoing refit for her next adventure. From the Azores, it was off to Portugal, Madiera, Canaries, Cap Verde, Grenada, isla Mujeres, Ft. Myers Fl. and the ICW back to the Chesapeake. When I had crew more sail was carried as help was always available. When I departed Norfolk, the average time to reef my main was 1.5 hours. An inexscusable failure to practice. Constant improvement to the system and practice reduced that to less than 5 minutes. Hopefully a valuable lesson to others contemplating such an adventure. Highlighting our errors can be invaluable to those planning to cast their lines. Fair winds Phil
Hey, that's a great Circle of the North Atlantic. GROG to you!
Reefing on 'Nanna' and before that, on 'R?de Orm'
grabbed winch handle, up to the mast, release halyard to premarked spot, attach cringle and then crank the mast-mounted winch for the reefline. Had two of those, then tension the halyard again.
After some 'drill' this takes less time than writing it down.
As an interesting(?) aside on our new (to us) boat Nanna everything was set up for reefing from the cockpit. Tried it out but the friction from the longer lines, pulleys and cleats made it WAAAAAY too slow for our liking.
The interesting thing is that 'all lines led aft' is always mentioned as safety advantage. After trying both ways, I strongly disagree. We found the 'one-reef system' to be a safety hazard and bought two used winches to install at the base of the mast together with pin rails I had made locally according to my own design.
For us, the speed of the reefing process is the determining factor, not being on deck or not. Of course sailors who are older, or at least less nimble might see it different.
Quote from: CharlieJ on May 25, 2011, 09:11:43 AM
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 24, 2011, 02:02:32 PM
Quote from: maxiSwede on May 24, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
That said, being conservative in reefing/sail area is always good IMHO, especially single- or shorthanded.
Question:
How many folks here take in an EXTRA reef at night as a matter of "Standard Procedure?" I've heard of people doing/recommending this, and just wondered who here practiced this particular 'conservative' approach.
I have done the reef at night thing on several occasions. Depends on where we are anchored, and what the weather looks like. If in a very well protected spot, and/or if the weather is good, we don't bother.
If anchored in an open anchorage, and iffy weather, then I will sometimes tie in the reef before dark. It's not a bad idea, and I THINK I originally read about in in a Hiscock book.
One thing for certain- we leave the sailcovers OFF while at anchor for overnight, so we can get under way more easily if needed.
Good points there about staying 'alert' at anchor.
Just to clarify, I was speaking about reefing underway, on a passage.
Phil, Welcome aboard. Enjoyed reading your posts. I hope that you will write the full story of your Atlantic voyage. When sailing my Typhoon, often solo, it was very handy to heave to and reef when the wind picked up. That is a great feature of the long full keel of the Alberg designs. I'm interested to see how well the twin keel design of my current cruising boat will heave to, when I eventually get it in the water. I expect that it won't be as well, and I will miss that.