How much experience is enough?

[okawbow]

There have been a few sad tales recently about people taking on more than they can handle sailing-wise. Some are quick to criticize and even condemn the efforts of sailors that end poorly. Is there any amount of preparation or experience that is above someone's contempt? Is the very act of sailing long distances in a small sailboat foolhardy?

I plan to sail across the Atlantic from the US to Europe someday. How much experience do I need? I'm 55 and getting older by the minute. I've spent weeks alone in wilderness areas, and sailed about 2000 miles in the past 5 years in small sailboats. My offshore experience is limited to 3,  day trips and 1 overnight, 170 mile solo. I've read most of the books, and think I know what to expect. What's next?

[AdriftAtSea]

Get some experience sailing on progressively longer trips... Work your way up to longer passages. Not only will this help you learn more about your boat and improve your skills, it will also build your confidence and let you work out any unforeseen bugs in your boat's setup before they become a major issue. 

Heather, of s/v Flight of Years fame, failed to do this IMHO.  The fact that her companionway locking system locked her out of the cabin is a good example of a boat system being badly designed and becoming a major, possibly life-threatening, issue.  If she had done some longer coastal passages before starting out on her circumnavigation attempt, she may have discovered it to be a problem and been able to fix it without having to hack a hole through the companionway.

Know your boat... get as familiar with the systems on her as possible.  As Alvah Simon points out in his book, North to the Night, knowing those systems intimately may save your life one day... it did save his, IIRC, when he had to modify an alternator bracket while suffering from near total blindness.  Since he had made the bracket himself, modifying it wasn't a deal breaker, even with being blinded at the time.

I think the criticism is more because of the arrogance and stupidity of some of the sailors venturing forth. 

The people, like Ronnie, who have been criticized recently, often are being lambasted because they knew they were woefully unprepared and knew they didn't have the experience, yet decided to go off half-cocked and then when they got into trouble... called for help without consideration for what it might cost the people that have to rescue them.   How would you feel, if your brother, cousin, sister or spouse were a USCG member and died in a rescue attempt of someone who knowingly set off without the proper experience or preparation and then decided to pull the tab on their EPIRB when they got in over their head?  Yes, it is the job of the USCG to go out and rescue these fools...but that doesn't make it right for the fools to put the USCG in danger.

In Ronnie's case, he had a 47 year old boat, which he didn't bother to survey or inspect thoroughly.  He could afford to buy HD camcorders so he could make a documentary of his voyage, but could not afford to survey or inspect the boat?  That isn't inexperience...that's sheer stupidity.  He also had only 6 months of sailing experience whatsoever.  He didn't know his boat very well IMHO, since, from his own accounts, the rudder steering quadrant failed, not the rudder or rudder stock—and an emergency tiller would have given him the ability to steer the boat at a minimum. 

He also set off in to the Pacific, during a time of year where increasingly rough conditions are pretty much the norm...not the unexpected. 

Look at that idiot, David Vann, who built the 50' Tin Can trimaran... his basic boat design was badly flawed IMHO.  It put far higher stresses on the akas than should have ever been the case.  I have never seen a decent trimaran design that had crossbeams that weren't parallel and perpendicular to the long axis of the boat for the most part.  His were formed as two intersecting crossbeams and the design effectively multiplied the loads generated by the amas on the main hull attachment points...and it failed exactly where I predicted it would...

Zac Sunderland isn't being criticized... but then again, he's properly prepared his boat, and has gradually worked up to have the experience necessary to undertake a circumnavigation.  He's also got a fairly seaworthy and well-founded boat that has been gone over with a fine-toothed comb.

[Captain Smollett]

Many people have bought boats with ZIP ZERO NADA knowledge/experience about sailing and successfully crossed oceans.  Notably, the Caldwell's come to mind.

As I think about this, I believe it comes down to whatever is your own personal "margin of safety."  When you feel ready to accept the risks, you are ready, and no one can make that call for you.  The risks are yours and yours alone.

As for the armchair naysayers, let 'em talk.  Talk is cheap.  In the end, we are all responsible for our own choices, and I would MUCH rather make a bad decision DOING something than be paralyzed into inaction by fear of either making a bad decision or of being criticized.

[AdriftAtSea]

Yes, some have done quite well with little if any experience.  Tania Aebi would be another in that category.  However, IIRC, neither Tania Aebi or the Caldwells attempted to do so in a 47-year-old vessel in questionable condition.  There is being inexperienced and then there is being stupid and foolhardy. 

[okawbow]

I have always done things with the idea that I was responsible for myself. I really don't want to depend on someone else to "save" me. I'll go when I'm ready, whether others think I am or not. I may not take an EPIRB if I go alone. But I'm not a fool either. I'll look at the best chances for success, and act on them.

Some people may never have what it takes to do a tough passage. I've known people who had all the training and experience with other people, who can't seem to get it done alone.

I'd like to hear what those who have done the hard trips have to say about when to go. How much experience did they have when they first went?

[CharlieJ]

Dan- we may not always see eye to eye on things, but your next to last last post pretty much says it all- the one that starts- get some experience.

When my boat building shop was sharing a building with a sailboat dealership, they would often have someone claim they were buying a boat and sailing over to Florida(from Texas)

The question would get asked- how much sailing have you done? The answer often was " not much but how hard can it be?" The answer to THAT question was - "pretty tough, coming from here. Do you know what the winds do here?" "no, why?"

We'd tell them- "buy the boat, take two years sailing the coast here, jetty to jetty and in the bays- THEN maybe, you can think about making a trip from here to Florida offshore".

Laura and I tried it two years ago- we got beat back- sailed 34 miles out in 24 hours and LOST 8 miles towards Florida :P :P The head winds were about 12 knots higher than predicted, and seas about 3 feet higher- and Texas to Florida offshore is a dead beat to weather most times. 500 miles of it.

Easy to go to Mexico, tough to go to Florida, offshore.

[TJim]

It's your call... I'd say you just go out and do it....Nobody knows better than you what your strengths and weaknesses are.  And, I'm sure, like most of us you got a little of each....The other thing, you aren't going to do anything that won't teach you more of the things you need to know. TJ

[chris2998]

I ask this question alot to myself. I am not experienced but when I leave for my around the world trip I will only leave when I feel I am truely ready and my boat I have completely gone through. I have followed the Zac sunderland story and reading his blogs every few days and it sounds like he and his parents have really done well preparing the boat but still I think they should have gone even further because reading how he had problems with the diesel because the fuel tank should have been replaced and the tiller broke then the boom broke. I deffinatly think they should have at least replaced the fuel tank seems like he was still in such a hurry yeah I know he wants the record but still I don't know if I would have taken off knowing I need a new fuel tank seems like they should have done more test to make sure things were good but I guess you can only be so prepared for this stuff I guess things are just going to break. I'm very anal retenant LOL things just have to be perfect well in my eyes anyway.

[okawbow]

I ask this question alot to myself. I am not experienced but when I leave for my around the world trip I will only leave when I feel I am truely ready and my boat I have completely gone through. I have followed the Zac sunderland story and reading his blogs every few days and it sounds like he and his parents have really done well preparing the boat but still I think they should have gone even further because reading how he had problems with the diesel because the fuel tank should have been replaced and the tiller broke then the boom broke. I deffinatly think they should have at least replaced the fuel tank seems like he was still in such a hurry yeah I know he wants the record but still I don't know if I would have taken off knowing I need a new fuel tank seems like they should have done more test to make sure things were good but I guess you can only be so prepared for this stuff I guess things are just going to break. I'm very anal retenant LOL things just have to be perfect well in my eyes anyway.

I guess most of us have these feelings. Sometimes, I think it would be  easy to get things ready and do the crossing. Then I read something that makes me wonder if I need more experience and maybe a bigger boat. I suppose if I wait until all is perfect, I'll never be ready. I plan on picking a date soon, and working toward making it happen. One option is starting from Florida, and working up the coast to a jumping off point. That would shake out some of the potential problems along the way.

[AdriftAtSea]

I don't think that boat size is all that important, since many of the people failing in recent years have done so in larger boats—Ken Barnes was in a 44' ketch.  If you're not prepared, you're not prepared, and a larger boat can actually be harder to deal with, since the forces involved in sailing a larger boat are often much higher. 

Beth Leonard points out that she's glad she started in a smaller boat, since it can be much more forgiving than a larger boat.  Making a mistake, like a spinnaker wrap, can often be corrected on a smaller boat using brute force—where the same mistake on a larger boat quickly escalates into disaster. 

If you have the proper preparation and experience, I think doing even a circumnavigation can be readily handled, given some luck.  That said, there will always be the chance that your luck has run out and you run into a storm or situation that just can't be foreseen.

[chris2998]

I ask this question alot to myself. I am not experienced but when I leave for my around the world trip I will only leave when I feel I am truely ready and my boat I have completely gone through. I have followed the Zac sunderland story and reading his blogs every few days and it sounds like he and his parents have really done well preparing the boat but still I think they should have gone even further because reading how he had problems with the diesel because the fuel tank should have been replaced and the tiller broke then the boom broke. I deffinatly think they should have at least replaced the fuel tank seems like he was still in such a hurry yeah I know he wants the record but still I don't know if I would have taken off knowing I need a new fuel tank seems like they should have done more test to make sure things were good but I guess you can only be so prepared for this stuff I guess things are just going to break. I'm very anal retenant LOL things just have to be perfect well in my eyes anyway.

I guess most of us have these feelings. Sometimes, I think it would be  easy to get things ready and do the crossing. Then I read something that makes me wonder if I need more experience and maybe a bigger boat. I suppose if I wait until all is perfect, I'll never be ready. I plan on picking a date soon, and working toward making it happen. One option is starting from Florida, and working up the coast to a jumping off point. That would shake out some of the potential problems along the way.

I guess I feel the same way to, you can be only so prepared but I have thought the same thing when I get a boat do a few over nighters maybe sail down the florida coast towards the panama canal to workout any bugs I have along the way and to gain my confidence but I know right now I have no clue LOL I read a blog of 3 college friends who claim they didn't have any experience in sailing and they bought a boat togetther and sailed around the world so in reading this I guess if you have a good head on your shoulders and make wise decissions you can do it with a little luck. my plan is to go just after my 32nd birthday well it's in July so maybe a little afterwards it will depend on hurricane season here.

[dnice]

It's your call... I'd say you just go out and do it....Nobody knows better than you what your strengths and weaknesses are.  And, I'm sure, like most of us you got a little of each....The other thing, you aren't going to do anything that won't teach you more of the things you need to know. TJ

yep

Its entirely up to the individual. I can recount quite a few stories of people with little or no experience that were completely successful sailors in the end. There are also plenty of stories where someone was not prepared and got themselves in too deep.

The way I see it, coastal navigation is far more dangerous than crossing oceans. The only thing dangerous I can see about crossing an ocean is the fact that you can't stop the weather from happening and you're bound to deal with a healthy gale (or worse) at some point.

The only problem with that is, how do you get experience in that type of situation without actually doing it? The only way to make it safer is to not do it alone. But sometimes thats not practical. You can't just find an experienced skipper to take you out in a storm! You can get all the offshore experience you want on other peoples boats, but without crewing for very long passages, what are the chances of encountering those conditions while its 'safe'?

Although I hope to have as much experience as possible when I leave, chances are I won't have much. But my plan consists of a few years of island hopping before setting off across the pacific. I don't see how Island hopping with a few 'short' passages is any different than general coastal cruising.

Of course the boat itself should be well prepared, and your knowledge of the boat should be exceptional. but beyond that, the only way to gain experience is to experience it.
Again, thats just me, and every person should know themselves, and know what risks their taking, well enough to decide if their up to it or not.

[Karletto]

if you want to do transatlantic but no transatlantic experience, sail to 40th meridian only and than return  ^^

[Lynx]

If you have to rely on luck then don't go. Training and experience is the Key. No booze or drugs. Take the hop to Bermuda and see. Go back, South or East.

After a while it is YOU that makes it or not. Can you tie a knot and sleep on it? Well, there are thousands or more things just like that. A good strong, well kept, well provisioned boat, will make it almost by it's self. You must want to live and make it to get through. Take a good look at the people who make it very year. Contact many in the same size boat as you. Over 300 boats cross every year. A lot in groups. See if you want to join one for your crossing.

Any plan is better than none. I think you have enough experience to go to Bermuda, probably more. A good idea of weather is a must and what you want to take.

Best wishes, fair winds, Lynx

[AdriftAtSea]

I'm gonna have to call BULLSH!T on this part of your post.

As I think about this, I believe it comes down to whatever is your own personal "margin of safety."  When you feel ready to accept the risks, you are ready, and no one can make that call for you.  The risks are yours and yours alone.

If someone goes out with an EPIRB and run into something they can't handle and pulls the tab on the EPIRB, the risks are not theirs and theirs alone.... Their carelessness, negligence, and or deliberate stupidity are going to affect all those involved in rescuing them. Those rescuers may very well be at risk of losing their lives.

If Ronnie had gone out without an EPIRB... I wouldn't be criticizing him... since it would have been his choice to go out with an unprepared boat and if the boat suffered a major failure, as it did, it would be up to him to either fix it or go swimming.  He'd also likely be a missing, lost at sea sailor no one ever really knows what happened to.  No one forced him to go.  He chose to go. If the conditions had been worse or there was an accident, it is likely that some of the people going to Ronnie's rescue could have died.  So, no the risks were not Ronnie's alone... He wasn't ready to accept the risks—he wasn't ready. 

[Bill NH]

I plan to sail across the Atlantic from the US to Europe someday. How much experience do I need? I'm 55 and getting older by the minute. I've spent weeks alone in wilderness areas, and sailed about 2000 miles in the past 5 years in small sailboats. My offshore experience is limited to 3,  day trips and 1 overnight, 170 mile solo. I've read most of the books, and think I know what to expect. What's next?

IMHO If you can't answer this question for yourself then you're not ready.  Plan voyages that slowly push your comfort bubble, not that wildly exceed your capabilities and experience.  Get experience sailing longer passages with others who can serve as mentors from you.  Far too many people try to learn from books.  Find a good mentor and learn from his or her experiences.  You should be prepared to work hard for little or no compensation in the tradition of an apprentice, but you will learn well. 

In the early part of my professional seagoing career when I had already sailed as master of coastwise schooners, I took a job as 3rd mate of a four masted barque at about a quarter of the pay I was earning as captain.  But I had the opportunity to sail for nearly two years in this ship, with the former Captain and former Sailing Master of the Coast Guard's EAGLE as my mentors and immediate supervisors.  What I learned from those two incredible seamen and leaders I still use every time I leave the dock, and was of far greater value than the money I passed up at the time. 

Don't rush the learning process and you'll become a capable and safe sailor - when you're ready to cross the big pond you'll know it yourself.

[TJim]

Com'n guys....face the facts.....Sailing isn't all that dangerous but experience, study and prep makes it
even less so... For the most part, it's more dangerous to walk the streets of Washington DC at night
than it is to sail, (or Chicago, Los Angeles, Oakland...etc...etc) yet we don't don't call people stupid for
that.  We raise all kinds of heck about Iraq and yell to bring home the troops, but DC & Chicago both have more people killed with guns than the troops in Iraq....So perhaps we should have to have special training or a license to go into areas like that.... I'm just glad to be getting the heck out of here........sailing is safer with less stress than just walking the streets here and it ain't going
to get better......

[Bill NH]

Sailing is not that dangerous 99.9 percent of the time, but it's the 0.1 percent that will kill you (or place others at risk, as Dan points out).  Books and common sense will carry you through the 99.9, experience is what saves your bacon in the 0.1...

[dnice]

I agree with the critics about Ronnie, although its not in contempt for him. Its just a sad case. I think he truly believed that crossing the Pacific was going to be an easy 15knot tradewinds and sunny passage. He was completely unprepared, and disillusioned.

The successful noob stories far outweigh those few failed attempts (not counting the failed attempts by completely competent sailors, stuff just happens sometimes).

If you are setting of on an adventure, of any type. You must realize that the basic principle of an adventure is heading off into the unknown. Although crossing oceans these days is not completely unknown, the principle is still the same, you WILL encounter things you did not prepare for. You will face challenges that you could not anticipate. Thats why mental preparedness is whats most important. If you don't trust yourself to handle whatever comes up, and if you are not prepared to accept the consequences of whatever decisions you make, or whatever the outcome, then you are not ready for that particular adventure.

That is why people suggest smaller passages to pepare you, its not that you will you all the sudden learn what to do in any given situation, its that you will gain confidence in yourself.

Dave and Jaja Martin said "Experience is NOT accumulative".
To me this means, if you have sailed through one storm, that does not mean you are prepared for the next one. There are no two storms that are the same.
But if you are confident in yourself, then you know that no matter what comes up, you will deal with it, and accept the consequences and the benefits.

[David_Old_Jersey]

If someone goes out with an EPIRB and run into something they can't handle and pulls the tab on the EPIRB, the risks are not theirs and theirs alone.... Their carelessness, negligence, and or deliberate stupidity are going to affect all those involved in rescuing them. Those rescuers may very well be at risk of losing their lives.

The EPIRB thing is an interesting point to ponder. I think Ronnie was wise to take one and I won't criticise anyone for doing so. But, I do get the feeling that they provide a sense of security for folk to try something they otherwise would not. In Ronnie's case the security provided was real - but it can never be a guarantee. Better to have a well prepared boat and experiance rather than an EPIRB.

Danger to rescuers? IMO for the proffesional rescuers EPIRB's are a bonus for their own safety as cuts down on search time, even at the price of being alerted to situations they may otherwise not be. I won't say that risking life is part of the job, but when signing up folk will know it ain't working 9-5 behind a desk - that's why folk do it.

But both proffessional and amateur rescuers always have the option of not risking their own lives in a foolhardy manner, even at the cost of someone later perishing. And I would not criticise anyone's actions (or inactions) - cos' sometimes their are no good outcomes. IMO although as a fellow seafarer you do have a duty to attempt to rescue if possible - but not at all costs......and for me the offer of help is not based on a judgement of how they got into trouble. Of course what risks I would take for family etc is very different to what I would risk for a stranger.