Going to look at a '65 Commander

[Christopher]

tis meant to be
do not fear the ice and snow
take pics!
lowball offer!
from the wavy side of Lake MI

I shall not fear the ice and snow... :)

It is wavy over there!  We left Milwaukee last summer in calm flats, and I was awoken early in the morning near Grand Haven to 6-8 footers...   

Provided she's in sailing condition, I think I'll be making an offer.

[Christopher]

LOL....  Mke, by any chance have you pissed off the weather gods recently???

That's certainly what it seems... last year was the 2nd highest snow totals on record in Milwaukee, and we are ahead of last year so far for early December... I guess I'll be bringing my shovel along with my camera, flashlight, tape measure, and multitool...

[Cmdr Pete]

It's going to be difficult to check for deck rot if the deck is frozen and covered with snow.

When looking at the rudder, push it all the way over to see how well the wood is attached. The wood planks are attached to the shaft by screws and drift pins and can become loose. But, some seperation between the planks is normal when the rudder is dried out.

Take a look at the upper bronze rudder shaft above the rudder. If the boat was sitting in an electrically hot marina you can get corrosion there. Might want to scrape down under the bottom paint when nobody is looking. 

Rudders can be a problem on any boat. Most fiberglass encapsulated rudders are waterlogged and rotting away and the owners dont even know it. At least on this boat you can see what you have.

This time of year, you need to make sure you're not paying for winter storage and launch, or factor that in.

Good luck. Make a note of the hull # stampted on the builder plate. Somebody might know some history.

[Christopher]

Thanks Pete!

I've definitely given thought to the frozen decks.  Thanks for the tip on the rudder.  I'll be taking tons of pictures and posting them in my picasa gallery.  Any looks you can give them would be greatly appreciated! 

[nowell]

I second the idea of going for a LOW LOW offer. I do feel guilty, but also, realize this. Its winter, on a trailer (assuming around his home). The prospect of A) getting it out of there, B) wanting the money for the holidays, C) crappy market means you can be a little more agressive with the lowball offer.

I personally don't lowball people, but, right now the cold hard truth is that its a buyers market. Good luck! Hope it all works out for you! Cant wait to see the pics  ;D

[skylark]

Let it load:

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/glcfs/glcfs.php?lake=l&ext=wv&type=F&hr=-1

[vinegarj]

chris-
is the boat at a local boatyard?  if so, which one?  i might know someone who knows someone who might be able to provide some insider info.   also, if the boat's at a yard, then winter storage has either been paid or someone is late paying.  whatever, i think you're in an very strong bargaining position.

[Christopher]

Here's a link to the photos:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ChrisAnderson78/65PearsonCommander#

Well, I learned an important lesson today.  Don't go looking at a boat in a snow storm.  The deck and cockpit had 4 inches of snow and a thin layer of slush ice making it impossible to see the topsides and the condition of the cockpit.  I tried to get down to the glass in the cockpit, but after the ice layer was a nice thick layer of leaves.  My camera died during the ordeal from getting soaked from slush and snow from my gloves.. so I never got a chance to get any decent shots from far away...





The boat is better than I expected, but not as good as I hoped.  The hull appears to be sound, with a few cracks on the rudder and a questionable area on the keel just below the rudder.



The main problem I see is that the stanchions were removed and the holes left exposed to the elements since at least 2004.  Although I couldn't see, I'm sure the deck is rotting in these areas having been exposed for at least 4 years.  The last registration on the boat was 2004.  There are a lot of moldy looking dark spots on the underside of the deck.  Is this what rot looks like?





The insides of the hull looked good all around from the forepeak, quarterberths, cockpit lockers, to the motor well.



The electrics don't look like they can be trusted and will probably need to be completely redone.  The coamings and brightwork are in pretty bad shape.  I couldn't get a very good look at the rigging because everything was run up to the bow and I almost took a tumble heading up the deck with no lifelines and slushy snow all over.

There is some significant cosmetic damage to the hull on both sides above the waterline.  Probably an easy repair for some who works well with fiberglass and epoxy.

THE BAD:

I'm not sure if those dark moldy looking spots are rot, but it makes me suspicious.  Does this look like a deck that will need to be recored?  Probably can't tell from just these photos, but I forgot my chisel and blowtorch to get through the snow and ice.  The boat is in arrears and the boatyard owner does not have the title.  He will have to sue the owner for the title and the money owed in storage fees.  There is no motor, the electrics are in bad shape, the coamings and brightwork are pretty rough, and the boat is overall filthy with a good deal of cosmetic fiberglass work.  The owner still has the sails and I have no idea what condition they are in.

THE GOOD:

The trailer it sits on is in very nice shape and is probably worth darn near what he's asking for the boat.  ($1500 now instead of $1950)  The boat appears to be in floating and sailable condition.  It would be an eyesore on the water as it stands, but is probably a worthwhile purchase for someone willing to put in a good deal of work.

What do you all think?  I'm leaning towards no.  I have a fulltime job, wife, baby on the way, and I"m in school to finish my undergrad through an online school.  I just don't think I can take a boat on that needs this much work.  The wife has cleared me to spend a lot more money on a boat in spring 2010 as she knows I'll have more time and we should have recovered from the initial sting of new baby costs.  Ultimately I'd like an Ariel, CD 27, or a Triton in a little nicer shape than this.

[Christopher]

Yeah, it's Gene Cramer's yard.  Cramer Marine over on 1st st just North of Becher.

chris-
is the boat at a local boatyard?  if so, which one?  i might know someone who knows someone who might be able to provide some insider info.   also, if the boat's at a yard, then winter storage has either been paid or someone is late paying.  whatever, i think you're in an very strong bargaining position.

[nowell]

If its not what you have your heart set on walk away. It sounds like you have alot going on in your life for the moment, so it might not be a bad idea to do just that. Especially if you know you will have the ability to get in something later on.

Now, just because I do play devils advocate, I will give the flip side. You said you have a place to store it. Its a classic. Even if you only had 1 weekend a month to work on it until 2010 (when you could again look at purchasing), would that be something you would consider? It looks like for the most part you have a clean slate to work from.

I guess what im trying to say is that if it is on your short list. Consider it as an option. Maybe discuss with your wife what it would cost, and the time table of it. I bet it will be there for awhile long, so whats the harm in talking about it, thinking out a few options, and maybe going back to see it once or twice more in a few months?

Again, just my worthless internet e-pinion  ;D

**edit** I bet you could probably talk him down even more in a month or two! What if you could get it for a grand with the trailer, would that change your outlook?

[Christopher]

I guess what im trying to say is that if it is on your short list. Consider it as an option. Maybe discuss with your wife what it would cost, and the time table of it. I bet it will be there for awhile long, so whats the harm in talking about it, thinking out a few options, and maybe going back to see it once or twice more in a few months?
**edit** I bet you could probably talk him down even more in a month or two! What if you could get it for a grand with the trailer, would that change your outlook?

I'm definitely going to be thinking about it.  The owner of the yard told me to come back and look at it any time.  If we have a warm day and the snow melts any time soon, I'm going to go and have another look at it.  I bet if the boat had a clear deck and cockpit, I might feel less apprehensive about it.
The $1000 mark is exactly what I was thinking.  I'd like to get an idea of just how much in repairs it will need.  I'm not experienced with boat repair of any kind.  I'm handy, and decent with carpentry, so I think there's a lot I could do.  If I'm going to sell my wife on the cruising thing though, I think I need something with standing head room and a private head. 

[nowell]

  If I'm going to sell my wife on the cruising thing though, I think I need something with standing head room and a private head. 

I dont see why a Commander wouldn't be the perfect family boat to sell her and the young one on the cruising lifestyle. Considering it sounds like you would mostly be doing day/weekend sailing?

Again, im just throwing out ideas for the human factor. I'll let one of the pro's comment on the mechanical factor  ;D

[Christopher]

  If I'm going to sell my wife on the cruising thing though, I think I need something with standing head room and a private head. 

I dont see why a Commander wouldn't be the perfect family boat to sell her and the young one on the cruising lifestyle. Considering it sounds like you would mostly be doing day/weekend sailing?

Again, im just throwing out ideas for the human factor. I'll let one of the pro's comment on the mechanical factor  ;D

Yeah, I want to be careful not to let myself make excuses for not just pulling the trigger.  The best way to get cruising is to get a boat and start doing it rather than searching for the "perfect boat".
I plan on doing some distance cruises myself, but the commander would be more than adequate for me.  Personally I like the roomy cockpit.  I tend to shy away from going below decks unless it's imperative as being down there makes me sick in tall seas.
On the other hand, I make enough money to buy a much nicer boat than this.  This year I just don't have it handy.  I could seek out a newer Cape Dory or a refitted Triton next year around this time.   A fellow sailor today told me he regrets locking himself in to a boat that was less than what he desired rather than just waiting a little extra time to get what he really wanted...
I'm gonna let it simmer in the back of my mind for awhile.  Hopefully I can find a clearer day sometime soon to go and see her again.

[vinegarj]

chris-
it looks like a fairly involved project boat...will be interesting to see how the deck is holding up once the weather cooperates.  also, what shape are the sails in?  there are some very good $1500 boat deals out there if you're patient.   this boat may be one.  but if you're looking at deck repairs, new sails, etc., and lots and lots of cleaning up and limited time to do it, then maybe it ain't the one.  but then again maybe it is:)  hope i can run by and look at her on saturday after i check in on my boat (at harborside).

[s/v Faith]

If there was any troubling information on the boat, you did not post it. 

  The mildew on the inside of the hull (looks like it was under the bow) is the result of the finish.  The Ariel had a gel coated cabin liner in the main cabin, and unfinished cloth in the v-berth.  Looks like the same finish on that Commander.  It is fine, the only problem is that as the boat sweats (warmer inside then out, water condenses on the interior surfaces) the surface is rough enough that once mildew gets a hold it is tough to keep up with.
A good cleaning, and epoxy primer and it would be fine.

  The way to check the decks is to walk on them.  If they are bad you will know... you can tap and listen for a dull thud to find smaller areas of rot.

  This picture;



  The Ariel and Commander were offered with an Atomic 4 inboard as an option.  All of the hulls produced had the prop aperture molded into the hull.  They even built the rudders with a cut out for a prop.  On your outboard equipped boat they just make a wooden plug for the rudder, and glassed over the prop aperture so it would be hydroponically fair.

  I had the same thing on Faith, it was full of water.  I just drained it and filled the void in with epoxy (no reason really, just seemed like the thing to do).

  If the boat does not speak to you though, that is reason enough.
 

[Cmdr Pete]

The boat actually looks pretty decent as these things go.

I seem to remember seeing this boat for sale a year or two ago. It's a bit troubling the boatyard has been trying to sell the boat and still hasn't acquired title. Not only does this complicate matters, but you probably wont get all the accumulated boat stuff the owner has at home, due to the hard feelings involved. I don't see the interior cabin cushions or motor well plug for example.

Some thoughts from the pictures, in no particular order:

The bottom looks pretty smooth. That's one nasty job out of the way

No battery, but that would be worthless anyway

No marine head/holding tank, so you'll be looking at a porta-potty to start with at least

The rudder looks to be glassed over, and the glass seems to be adhering

The stainless half oval rubrail looks to be missing. You can buy some from Jamestown Distributors for about $4-5 a foot

Hard to tell the condition of the deck from below. Could be just mold and flaking paint or something more sinister.

I would just assume there are some deck issues. Other boats you'll be looking at-- Cape Dory, Triton or similar are likely to have the same issues. You might find one that has already been recored, but will it have a trailer? You would need to get real lucky, and that boat is going to have its own problems anyway.

That's a whole lot of boat for ca. $1000. Laughable really. Of course, the purchase price is just the first drop in the bucket.

If the boat doesn't excite you that's a good enough reason not to buy it.

The 9 foot cockpit is what makes the Commander unique. Sure its great when you have a crowd aboard. But, its also nice for 2 or 3. Everybody gets plenty of room to stretch out and no one is in the way of the tiller or winches.

Quite a few of my friends have big cruising boats. Nobody goes below underway or at anchor, except if its raining  :) Of course, my boat gets sailed more than all of theirs put together

I also like the boat because its heavily ballasted and forgiving. There's little worry about being overpowered, she just shrugs off the gusts. The boat absolutely refuses to broach. Just a nice sailing boat with a good grip on the water.

But, like I said, I'm biased. On the internet, people are always trying to convince you their boat is "best" for you.

Good luck in your search. It's really an intensely personal decision

[AdriftAtSea]

I'd have to agree that if the boat doesn't speak to you... don't get it... it isn't worth working on a boat you don't love. You'll be putting blood, sweat and tears into any boat you get... so it is really best if it sings to you when you walk her decks.

[skylark]

The boat looks like a fun project however it will take a lot of time in the first two years to get it to decent condition, longer if you have high standards. Note that you may be unable to sail the first year due to repairs. It doesn't sound like you will have the time for a project of this extent.  Plus you will have to sink at least 1000 into it, probably more if your standards are higher.  Mooring, haul out, insurance, registration and storage go on top of that.  Then every year there will be some more maintenance.

Are you interested in a boat sharing situation?  You might be able to find someone willing to let you have half the summer weekends on their boat in exchange for sharing haul out fees and mooring fees.

[Christopher]

I like the fact that the hull seems to be in good order.  I don't have any experience deck recoring, or really any boat repairs.  I'm good with engines and I've restored an old car so I'm not really scared of the work.  I really think I need to look at it when it's not buried in snow.  I almost fell of that boat more than once in the 30 minutes I was looking her over, then my camera sizzled.  The conditions of the meeting may have tainted my view of her.

I'm compromised by two things, time and the wife.  I think she wants to be involved because it's so important to me, but she has very high standards of where she goes to the bathroom and the appearance of the boat.  She's also afraid of me getting a project boat and not spending time with her and the baby when she gets here.  If we didn't have a baby on the way, and I was done with my degree, this would be a no brainer given that you guys don't see any major issues.

The yard owner told me to stop in any time and look at her.  So I might do that from time to time as it's on my way home from work.  See if I'm swayed in either direction as the winter grinds on :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Chris-

Sounds like a good plan. Keep us posted. :)