New sails!

[thistlecap]

Reefing:  While a couple have already made their decisions, I'll still add a few words on reefing and echo CharlieJ's comment.  I've unfortunately had many occasions to use the third reef, and you never want to release the first reef to reeve the line for the third.  That allows the bunt and the sail itself to go slack.  I assume you've also laced the first and second cringles to the boom, but even that will not hold the sail.  The slack increases the chord and shape of the sail increasing heel and weather helm.  Each reef should flatten the sail more, and each reef cringle should have a dedicated line to hold the respective outhaul and bunt in place.  Once the sail has been reset and you're moving again, ease the sheet enough to give some slack and use some small stuff to lace the cringle to the boom, which also holds everything in place and reduces chafe and improves control and set.  Also, you should never tie reefs in around the boom.  It creates hard spots in the sail that will rip the sail.  Reef points are always tied under the foot or boltrope, not the boom.  Only the leach cringle for each panel is laced to the boom.

The reefs should be taken on alternate sides.  First reef to starboard, second to port, and third to starboard.  The advantage is the third reef then puts you on the starboard tack with right of way over other sail that may still be on a point of sail that enables them to carry on.  This placement of the pennant tails also allows you to do all line and sail management from the windward and safer side of the sail and boom.  Whether the halyard is on the same or opposite side of the mast as the reefing pennant is not (or should not be) an issue.

As a side point, when boats were really designed for and intended to go to sea, it used to be accepted  that boats would be reefed onto the starboard tack under the worse conditions, and the naval architects followed that premise.  If you look at the older designs, you'll notice that most of the heaviest stuff, stoves in particular, would be placed on the port or leeward side.  When the stove unshipped, it just fell a few inches into the recess of the cabinetry rather than fly across the cabin with perhaps lethal consequences.  Now that color coordination  track lighting and interior design have taken precedence over seaworthiness, you obviously find stoves, heaters, and other heavy fixtures put whereever there's room.

For the best control and sail life for a cruiser, a loose-footed (reduces likelihood of damage from slatting in light air), roachless (eliminates battens) main with a reefing working jib or staysail are the best options.  The next issues are keeping them covered, even for a lunch break, keeping them off the lower shrouds and other sources of chafe, putting chafe patches where lowers or spreader tips may rub mains or genoas, and replace stitching immediately when chafed.  If stitching is in need of frequent maintenance, have the whole sail restitched by your sailmaker.

[Amgine]

The idea of stbd-port-stbd reefs is mighty fine, until you've left the 2nd reef too late and the boat's laying over 30 deg under the jib and feathered main and you're trying to tuck in from both sides of the mast. Been there, done that, and no I won't admit how many times but the previous boat had one reef on each side and I think it's a not-well-thought out practice. (You don't know how watered down that sounds from what I'm actually thinking of it...) Maybe I'm just stupid and there's a nice easy way to do that I've never figured out.

It's possible to avoid lacing the reef cringle to the boom yet still have strong outhaul force from the reefing line. Place the bitter end fitting (I use a strap) either directly under or only slight abaft the position of the reef cringle when it is correctly drawn down to the boom, while having the turning cheek block near the boom end. nearly half of the 2:1 force will be applied to keeping the cringle down, while the remainder (minus friction but plus any additional mechanical advantage multiplier) will be hauling the new clew out and flattening the sail.

There's more to reducing the effects of chafe than getting rid of battens and patches. The second biggest chafer in my experience has been headboards, some of which are big enough they really should be called gaffs or lugs. Spreader tips need attention; boots after all are pretty much a specialized baggy wrinkle. I had a sail whose leachline had never been properly coiled down/cleated by the PO, and there was clearly visible chafe on the tabling from it blowing off in the wind. (It never caused a problem, but it goes to show what even a tiny line can do rubbing up against the sail over time.) Chafe is why I make a circuit of the deck every watch, so I can put in the log I did it and found nothing loose or wearing or making noise... Actually, being honest, I don't tend to do that religiously in bad weather which is probably when it's most necessary.

For those of you with loose-footed mains, do you have a lot of foot roach? I had a laced-on gaffer main I cut loose, and the foot had rather a lot of rounding to induce shape. With a tightish foot going ddw that roach seemed to be a noticeable improvement over the lacing even if the foot of the sail was much flatter. The new main has a footrope in a slot, but it's going to have slugs in a heartbeat if the penants under the boom ruin the set of the sail.

In my experience, the loose foot had zero effect on slatting in light going. If anything it seemed to create greater force in the pop at the tack and clew, so greater damage. But having two spars instead of just one and both of them with vangs helped quiet the sail; I hope four battens will do as well.

[CharlieJ]

Just received this email from someone who has been reading this thread. This lady who's name shall remain unwritten has several thousand blue water miles behind her, including 2 or 3 trips through the Panama Canal and several offshore deliveries from New York to the US Virgins, and also the other way, with stops in Bermuda.. Here's the email I got-

"Just for the record, we had full battens on the W-32 (nearly new sail already on when XXX bought the boat) and they were miserable for cruising, IMO.

I hate having to head up to deal with the sails but you almost had to or else major friction developed between the battcars and the battens were then at an angle to them.  We did raise/lower/reef on a beam reach, but it was a pain.  I could not re-raise the sail after tucking in a reef, even with the winch, but had to wake XXX up from his off-watch or else suffer with a wrong sail. Frustrating.

Of course coming off a beam reach (say, on watch at night) meant taking off the perfectly-set windvane and changing heading, which changed the motion and woke up the off-watch.  Then you'd have to go through the whole tweaking-the-wind-vane thing again.

In light air and leftover seas the battens would flop in a painfully, horribly noisy way.

Also, the battens caught on stuff, sometimes dangerously, when trying to reef or etc.

The longest batten is a pain to stow a spare for.

The sail did drop nicely into the lazy jacks, and I suppose the shape was good, but that was not worth it IMO.

I know you basically know all this, but I saw on Sailfar where you mentioned some of these faults with partial battens but then said you hadn't had a fully battened sail."

[maxiSwede]

I have got very little experience from sailing with full-battened mainsails.

Tried it a few times in other people's boats and I agree 100% with the comments from Charlie's female friend.

It's a nuisance. Ok for Tuesday night racers and weekendsailors I guess but I would never consider it on my boat.

Period. thanks for sharing her story with us, Charlie!

[Amgine]

::Shrug:: I did my research, I paid my money, and now I get to learn my lessons. I don't know who you're trying to convince of what. I do know I have almost certainly put more effort into learning about these sails than you have, but you're welcome to your opinions just as I developed mine from study and interviews with people using them.

You might note that full-battened sails have developed rather rapidly in the past 30 years, and it's now pretty much agreed that a sewn-on batten car is not ideal. An articulating rigid fitting is the preferred choice, and a roller batt car the best choice (but requires a fair amount of retrofitting hardware if your mast was not designed for it.) There's a lot more that has been improved as well, but the fitting is primary.

[s/v Faith]

Different ships, different long splices.

Amgine,

  Enjoy your full batten sails, as I have said I love mine.  I reserve my right to change my mind later,
as should we all.  :)

  I bet there are many, many, folks who will say we are nuts to think our boats are suitable for anything other then day sailing anyway...
;)
 

[Captain Smollett]

::Shrug:: I did my research, I paid my money, and now I get to learn my lessons. I don't know who you're trying to convince of what. I do know I have almost certainly put more effort into learning about these sails than you have, but you're welcome to your opinions just as I developed mine from study and interviews with people using them.

You might note that full-battened sails have developed rather rapidly in the past 30 years, and it's now pretty much agreed that a sewn-on batten car is not ideal. An articulating rigid fitting is the preferred choice, and a roller batt car the best choice (but requires a fair amount of retrofitting hardware if your mast was not designed for it.) There's a lot more that has been improved as well, but the fitting is primary.

I've never sailed with full battens, and until Craig's post recently, had never read of anyone stating a positive CRUISING experience with one.

I look forward to your comments as you use this sail.

The only comment I can make at this point is that battenless just strikes me a more KISS.  I remain open to being convinced otherwise...

[Amgine]

You might want to consider that a higher percentage of catamarans have full-battened mains, if you consider them legitimate 'cruisers'. I'll be sure to keep SF abreast of how things are going - especially with how the sailmaker replies to my complaint about the batt cars.

With any luck there will be at least a tiny amount of breeze tomorrow, so I'll be able to at least try them under sail.

[CharlieJ]

I don't know who you're trying to convince of what.

Not trying to CONVINCE anyone of anything in particular- just presenting info that I received and laying out my personal experiences with cruising sails, based on a good many miles of cruising.

I hope your sails satisfy you completely, as mine have me.

[maxiSwede]

::Shrug:: I did my research, I paid my money, and now I get to learn my lessons. I don't know who you're trying to convince of what. I do know I have almost certainly put more effort into learning about these sails than you have, but you're welcome to your opinions just as I developed mine from study and interviews with people using them.

You might note that full-battened sails have developed rather rapidly in the past 30 years, and it's now pretty much agreed that a sewn-on batten car is not ideal. An articulating rigid fitting is the preferred choice, and a roller batt car the best choice (but requires a fair amount of retrofitting hardware if your mast was not designed for it.) There's a lot more that has been improved as well, but the fitting is primary.

True, but for racing, not cruising in my humble opinion.... tell me what the benefit really is on a cruising boat - except for 0,1 knot more of boat speed...*yawning*  no offense, to each his own  :-\

[Amgine]

You know, not one of the people I talked to mentioned speed as a benefit. Quiet, ease of sail handling, better trim in light conditions... those were the things cruisers talked about. My opinion is full-length battens let cruisers be lazy: not as precise about trim, reef later or leave a reef in longer, less work to lower the sail, etc. One boat (the only catamaran) claimed battens let him point higher, but I've read arguments both ways on that one so I didn't consider it in my decision-making.

I guess if you don't think having noisy slatting sails, sails popping in and out in slop, constant tweaking to get the sail setting right in light airs (and still not getting the sail to stay filled), clawing down an over-powered sail, and wrestling to get it furled onto the boom are negatives on a cruising boat, then you won't agree there are any benefits to full-length battens.

[maxiSwede]

I agree on the light air performance (which equals higher boat speed in my mind) but I am far from convinsed about the rest...

I certainly do hope you'll be satisfied with'em though, as everything else, i'ts a trade-off.

My focus is not at easy handling as such but at simplicity and safety.

All the best, and please let us know how it is going.  :)

[Oldrig]

Thanks guys, this is a fascinating discussion.

I have a couple of observations, none of which negate what has already been said.

Full battens: When I ordered a new main for my Cape Dory 25D, my local sailmaker advised against full battens, saying that they were most useful on sails that have extra full roaches (not possible with the backstay of the Cape Dory). Since then, I've sailed on a larger Cape Dory that has two full battens and two partial. The owner says it makes it easier to reef--but he adds that he has to use lazy jacks to lower his sail.

Batten pockets: Charlie's comment is probably right-on. Whenever I take my main in for its annual service, most of the bucks end up going into batten-pocket repairs. This seems to be the real moneymaker for my neighbor the sailmaker.

Reefing: Yep, be sure to tie those reef points around the bunt, not around the boom. (Although, if you've got a bolt rope for at the foot, you have not choice.

FWIW, both of my reef points are on the starboard side of the boom, so I can have the right of way while reefing. I'm not sure how I'd handle that third reef point if I get it put in--but I would definitely not want to have the reefing line rigged on a permanent basis.

--Joe

[Amgine]

Well, I only had a couple of hours on the water with the sails this morning, but so far I'm very pleased with them. Nothing happened that would have allowed a comparison of battened vs. short battened, although I did get to try a bit of shape tweaking because the winds were quite light to begin with.

I got out with the wind just nosing over 3 kts, with the main and 130% up. Ghosted around a bit, then headed downwind as the breeze was slowly increasing. The genoa luff turns out to be really really long; I don't think there's more than a couple inches left on the halyard. The luff is also a bit stretchier than I expected. The sailmaker did warn me that it's a very sensitive sail, and the luff should be left less taut than with the previous genny. Learning time on the jib halyard, and I noticed the leech seemed to have a slight hook despite the leech line being completely slacked off; may have been due to the lead, and I played around with that as well.

The main seemed flatter than necessary for the light winds, so I made Stooy's life miserable (the auto pilot) by lower the main and trying to tension up the battens for more belly. I now had three *different* curves, because I apparently tensioned only two of the four battens the same amount. So I lowered again, and got it right this time. The foot shelf really does fold away if the outhaul is tensioned. The foot rope is not attached to either the luff or the leech, and the clearly stretchier and very small panel formed a nice horizontal wrinkle which brought the lower edge of the next panel down and almost flat to the boom - however this was in light air and I'm still not making bets on how it will act in medium to heavy air.

The gps speed off the wind was about what I thought the wind speed was, faster than I would have predicted since there was about a quarter knot of falling tide against. But the wind had been rising a bit, so when I turned into it I guessed the apparent to be close to 8-10 kts, a bit higher in gusts. And then we managed hull speed (keeping in mind we were getting the .25 kt lift) going upwind, not hard on the wind but sheets started a bit to get the best speed I could.

It was marvelous. New sails really did make a big difference in how quickly the boat accelerated, and how little heel developed even when a bit over-sheeted.

Of course I spent all the time trying to tweak this and that, released the battens again to see what happened then (no change I could tell from gps or inclination gauge, but visibly less camber.) But we were back to the marina in three boards, and despite really really wanting to skip out on things and spend the rest of the day (week!) playing with sails I dropped the sails and headed back to the slip.

Yes, I have lots of pictures of the sails though I didn't take any while I was actually sailing today. I'll be getting the film developed this week, hopefully will upload some images by Friday or Monday. So far, nothing to say about full battens vs. none/short; more things to play with for sail trim, but no conclusive evidence that it's been specifically helpful, nor any noticeable drawbacks. (I did hoist the main about 30 deg. off the wind to see if there'd be a noticeable increase in friction, but I didn't notice any. Will try a beam hoist next time.)

[maxiSwede]

Well, I only had a couple of hours on the water with the sails this morning, but so far I'm very pleased with them. Nothing happened that would have allowed a comparison of battened vs. short battened, although I did get to try a bit of shape tweaking because the winds were quite light to begin with.

I got out with the wind just nosing over 3 kts, with the main and 130% up. Ghosted around a bit, then headed downwind as the breeze was slowly increasing. The genoa luff turns out to be really really long; I don't think there's more than a couple inches left on the halyard. The luff is also a bit stretchier than I expected. The sailmaker did warn me that it's a very sensitive sail, and the luff should be left less taut than with the previous genny. Learning time on the jib halyard, and I noticed the leech seemed to have a slight hook despite the leech line being completely slacked off; may have been due to the lead, and I played around with that as well.

The main seemed flatter than necessary for the light winds, so I made Stooy's life miserable (the auto pilot) by lower the main and trying to tension up the battens for more belly. I now had three *different* curves, because I apparently tensioned only two of the four battens the same amount. So I lowered again, and got it right this time. The foot shelf really does fold away if the outhaul is tensioned. The foot rope is not attached to either the luff or the leech, and the clearly stretchier and very small panel formed a nice horizontal wrinkle which brought the lower edge of the next panel down and almost flat to the boom - however this was in light air and I'm still not making bets on how it will act in medium to heavy air.

The gps speed off the wind was about what I thought the wind speed was, faster than I would have predicted since there was about a quarter knot of falling tide against. But the wind had been rising a bit, so when I turned into it I guessed the apparent to be close to 8-10 kts, a bit higher in gusts. And then we managed hull speed (keeping in mind we were getting the .25 kt lift) going upwind, not hard on the wind but sheets started a bit to get the best speed I could.

It was marvelous. New sails really did make a big difference in how quickly the boat accelerated, and how little heel developed even when a bit over-sheeted.

Of course I spent all the time trying to tweak this and that, released the battens again to see what happened then (no change I could tell from gps or inclination gauge, but visibly less camber.) But we were back to the marina in three boards, and despite really really wanting to skip out on things and spend the rest of the day (week!) playing with sails I dropped the sails and headed back to the slip.

Yes, I have lots of pictures of the sails though I didn't take any while I was actually sailing today. I'll be getting the film developed this week, hopefully will upload some images by Friday or Monday. So far, nothing to say about full battens vs. none/short; more things to play with for sail trim, but no conclusive evidence that it's been specifically helpful, nor any noticeable drawbacks. (I did hoist the main about 30 deg. off the wind to see if there'd be a noticeable increase in friction, but I didn't notice any. Will try a beam hoist next time.)

Many Thankx for sharing!  Always interesting to hear of different experiences like this. grog o you!  ;)

[CapnK]

Amgine - a request, for when you next take pics: a closeup of the batten cars your sailmaker used?

Have fun with the new sails!

[Amgine]

Ah... the argument. The sailmaker didn't use batten cars, even though I'd requested a fixed mount; instead the batten ends are simply sewn to a slide via nylon webbing. This is one of several fairly important (to me) details we'd discussed, twice, which somehow failed to be added to the work order, and didn't get done. None of which I was charged for, but I really did want them done.

So, I asked him to order the correct cars, and I'll bring the sail in as soon as they come in and pay for them.

I asked that exactly 11 days ago. In 10 days I'm going to be calling another sailmaker to find out how much it will cost to get the batt cars and have them installed. Then I'll call my sailmaker back and ask where the batt car order is. If, as I suspect, this detail too has not been acted on then I will be changing sail makers.

I'll be happy to take pics of both the current slide arrangement and the eventual bat cars. (My films were not ready on Thursday, and I'm in another country for the weekend, but hopefully they'll be ready when I get back on Monday.)

[Amgine]

Okay CapnK: I did a cheesy write-up of the mainsail with pictures on the blog. It has a bad picture of the foot panel, and a good picture of the current batten cars.

The plan at the moment is to replace the batten cars with the ones I asked for, but since schedules have been moved up my boat budget isn't going to have enough for that this year. And it won't be at the current sail loft; they've still not replied after 21 days.

When the sun breaks out again I'll be doing a photo shoot of the jibs. Will try to get a more timely write up of that then.