Colligo Marine/Dux synthetic rigging

[CapnK]

Ok folks, give a warm welcome to the brave John Franta, Director, Colligo Marine, LLC. Their website is at http://www.colligomarine.com , and they are based in Mesa, Arizona.

On another board I read the other day, someone made a post about Colligos synthetic line-based standing rigging. I've heard of the stuff before, know that it is all the rage with racers, but have never considered it a cruiser-style alternative. I made a reply in the thread where I expressed concerns about the life cycle of the line, whether or how much it was affected by UV, and was it really a cost-effective alternative to the now "traditional" stainless wire rigging that is so prevalent these days, that sort of thing. John made an excellent reply, and that gave me the idea for this forum, and to invite John, so here we are.

I imagine John has some things he might want to say right off, perhaps respond to my probably-typical concerns above, and to tell us more about his system(s) and why he thinks they are a Good Thing. :)
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Q#1 from me:

John, is there a better way to put that, a different or shorter name or acronym you use for "synthetic line standing rigging"? That's a lot to type. ;D

[s/v Faith]

Kurt / John,

 

I expressed concerns about the life cycle of the line, whether or how much it was affected by UV, and was it really a cost-effective alternative to the now "traditional" stainless wire rigging that is so prevalent these days, that sort of thing. John made an excellent reply.....

  I would like to hear the reply.... either posted here or maybve copied from that 'other' forum.

  Faith is looking for new rigging before her next long cruise, would like to hear more... like what kind of numbers a rig for an Ariel would run?

[AdriftAtSea]

One question I had was whether his synthetic rigging is compatible with having a headsail roller furling unit installed over it.

[CapnK]

If he doesn't reply soon, I'll shoot him an email to remind him that he has potential customers over here asking questions... ;D

[Colligo]

Hi Guys,  Dynex Dux, UHMWPE line is the first 12 strand line that has stretch characteristics similar to wire rope.  You can find some stretch and creep charts on our website at http://www.colligomarine.com/Dynex%20Dux.htm

If overdesigned slightly for creep (1/4 inch wire to 7mm or even 9mm Dynex Dux) you will have a shroud or stay that is about 1/6 the weight.  Dyneema, the base material of Dynex Dux is widely known as the best synthetic for UV resistance.  It should be good for at least 3-5 years in the sun.  Whats more, when it is time to replace you just buy new line and splice it on.  You do not have to buy the hardware again, so cost over time goes down considerably compared to wire or PBO.  Even better is the fact that you can get Dynex Dux wet, unlike PBO.  Can't imagine having something on the deck of a boat that you cannot get wet!

Check out the cost comps at http://www.colligomarine.com/CSS.ht

We are working with a rigger in Australia (www.strongrope.com) that is using Dynex Dux on traditional cruising monohulls with traditional turnbuckles (about 3 inches travel). 

Chafe resistance of Dux is probably the best of any synthetic also.  We use high quality shears (tin snips)  to cut it and that requires some amount of effort.   You really have to see the stuff to believe how tough it is. 

If you are concerned about jumping into this with a large investment, a low risk way of trying this new technology out are running backstays.

Forestays are still a problem for extrusion roller furlers.  Bearing surfaces just aren't large enough.  Furler manufacturers will probably be correcting this soon but for now you can use softhanks which some manufacturers have for hank on sails only.

Let me know what other questions you might have. 

Best...



       

     

[Rick Westlake]

Actually, how about as a luff for a free-standing staysail?

I've been thinking about getting a staysail/storm-jib made up for my MacGregor 26X - there is a strap-eye between the anchor locker and the forward hatch that is about 2/3 the jib's "J" dimension from the mast.  My first thought was to rig it for a removable baby-stay, and fit it out to take a hank-on staysail - but what about incorporating the stay into the sail's luff itself, and using super-low-stretch line such as Dynex for the luff and the halyard?

We're talking about 80 square feet or less of stays'l here.  I'm already putting some serious reinforcement under the deck there, and replacing the original strap-eye with a Wichard - it's a good place for a jackline should I need one (even if I don't try to use it for a cutter-rigged Mac.)

How is Dynex Dux for taking knots, or setting on a regular horn cleat?  (KISS method of sail-handling)

(John, I hope you're watching this topic ... I'm warned it hasn't been visited for 9 months)

- Rick

[Colligo]

I get an email whenever someone posts here. 

Many cruisers and some racers are fitting the luff of their staysail with Dynex Dux.  You could use the new 5 mm dux and our small lifeline terminators on each end.  Lash or shackle the tack to the wichard padeye and then lash or shackle the head to the halyard.  The sail is so small no need for hanks, much simpler and lighter, easier to handle.

Since we now have 5 mm Dynex dux it has opened up a new niche for trailerable boats.  Shrouds and stays of Dux are much easier to handle than wire rope, and lighter for more weight sensitive small boats. 

Knots in UHMWPE line reduces the strength up to about 50%.  Dynex Dux is even more sensitive since it is much stiffer.  When we pull test samples that are spliced with a 72 x diameter bury they always break at the bend.  Knots put a much tighter radii, and therefore stress riser, on the line.

[skylark]

Apparently you can rig your boat using synthetic line called Dynex Dux.  You would have to use traditional rigging methods instead of metal parts.  Does anyone know how to do this?

[rorik]

Their website has basic instructions. Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells/sold it. I was told by some staff there that it is not a big seller. Spoke to several riggers at the Seattle boat show. None of them thought the stuff was any any good for a cruising boat. Race boat, yes. Dyneema style lines don't stretch, but they do creep. You have to keep on it. And to save a total of 20 or 30 pounds aloft on a small cruiser.... not worth the hassle in my mind.

[LooseMoose]

My new rig is all Dynex and it makes all kinds of sense and as a bonus it is cheaper if you do it the DIY way. Stretch and creep are not an issue if you get the right diameter Dynex.

I'll be doing a lot blogging in the near future on the rig. In the meantime take a look at another happy camper over at http://www.garyfelton.com/shanti/

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[CapnK]

John -

I spent some time revisiting this idea today, and poking around your site/catalog for an idea of what the state of the art was, how or what had changed, with an eye towards re-rigging my boat later this year. A few Q's for you...

1 - Given my Ariels 5120# displacement, and over-sized 3/16" wire (OEM used the same rig as was on the 8300# Triton, for ease I reckon...), and based on what I can divine from the wealth of info on your site, it looks like I should use the 5mm Dux for standing rigging. However, as I tried to 'assemble' an imaginary rig to get an idea of cost, I noticed that the chainplate connector has 4 transverse holes for lashing, but the line terminator sized for 3-6mm only appears to have 2 transverse lashing holes. Am I missing something here...?

2 - Am I guessing right that each shroud/stay would use a line terminator at both the upper and lower ends, the upper end attaching to a tang, the lower via a lashing to the chainplate connector?

3 - What's the latest information you have with regards to the effects of UV over the long term? It's been almost 3 years since this thread was started, so you should have at least that much more of a dataset. :)

4 - Regarding "creep" - which I take to mean the gradual stretching/lengthening of the relevant line/wire over time from being constantly taught - is it really that much of an issue, when the lashings are 12+ inches in length? Doesn't that creep get taken up with a simple tightening of the lashing every so often, monthly or so, perhaps based on usage, I'd guess?

5 - Is there a set % or something for approximately how much is the "volume discount" for rigging an entire boat? The Cart on your site put the materials needed for re-rigging my boat with 5mm Dux at a bit over $1200 (going with 7mm would up that about $200 more, I think). The rig is a fairly standard spar of ~27' length, 1 spreader & 2 lower shrouds per side, a single backstay. I guesstimated about 35' of line for each upper (extra length needed for backsplicing), and about that same length to create two lowers, for a total of about 210' of Dux, 8 chainplate attachments, & 16 terminators.

Some of what I've been reading from cruising sailors in 'lead mine' monohulls is encouraging about what they have seen with Dux in "real world" standing rigging applications. Maybe 'wire is dead', after all! :)

TIA for your answers.  8)

[CapnK]

Bump (for Notification purposes)

:)

Note: I also merged another topic from the Boat Bit section into this thread, as we do get visited by the manufacturer of the product, a useful source of info. :)

[nickmerc]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I too was curious about Colligo's Dynex Dux so I bit the bullet and bought enough material and terminators to do my lifelines.

I am very pleased with the outcome of the project.  I did it early last summer and it appears (no actual breakage testing done) there is no degradation of the material.  Typically with other polymers they start to get brittle and rough after being left exposed to UV long enough.

I found the splicing easy to do once you get the hang of it.  I was able to replace the lifelines in one day.  They look nice, are very easy on the hands, and cost me less than new stainless.

Pending data on the UV resilience I would like to replace my standing rigging (except the forestay with the RF genoa) in the next few years.  I really like the DIY aspect of it.

[CapnK]

I've never stopped considering this as a solution for standing rigging. Have hoped to see some numbers re: long term UV resistance, but still nothing firm or scientific as yet.

It has been a while, so today I went and dug around and looked at pricing. Holy smokes, it may have moved beyond the realm of cruisers, or those otherwise on a budget.

For example, for 1x19, 1/4" wire runs at +/- US$2/foot (@Defender).
Dux and a competitor are closer to $6/foot for the recommended 9mm size. Yikes - near triple the cost!

Fittings are another expensive story. The "Cheeky Tang" mast fitting for Dux in this size, a single line version is US$139, a double is US$169. At the lower end, you need a Terminator per line, at US$79 per, and a Chainplate Distributor, also per, also US$79. All great gear, but - pricey!

For wire, using Sta-lok terminals, at Defender an eye fitting for 1/4" wire at the tang is US$66/46 (full price/current sale price), and a stud at the bottom is US$73/51 (full/sale).

So, summing up and with "ballpark" figuring, to re-rig my I-36 with stainless I'd be looking at:

$800 for wire (400'), plus $1390 in terminals (10 each, upper & lower, @ full price) - or $2190 total, for a rig that (as typically recommended) will last 10 years or one circumnavigation. ;)

To do so switching to synthetic, I'd be looking at:

US$2580 in Dux (430' - due to 10 long splices needed), plus US$556 in single tangs, US$338 for a pair of doubles, and US$1580 in low end terminators. Total US$5054.

More than double. Replacement in 10 years max, when its predicted strength will be at 40% of original according to a chart at Colligo website, but I have seen John say 5-8 years. I think right now I'd call it 8 years.

Note that the cost of the Dux alone is more than the entire stainless rig including terminals.

If Dux and stainless experience a similar rise in cost over time, and we discount the cost of terminals, in 8-10 years replacing wire will be ~1/3 the cost of doing so with Dux, and perhaps at a slightly longer interval.

The only advantages I can see to synthetic now is 1) it weighs less, and 2) it stows smaller, if you carry spare along.

Am I missing something?

Addendum: Regular (un-heat stretched) Samson Amsteel Blue at Fishery Supplies in 3/8" is $3.68/foot in the Gray color. That comes to US$1582 for 430'.

And the second: I think that 400' is way more than the I-36 actually needs, probably closer to 300' of wire. Oops. :)

[LooseMoose]

We swapped rigs on our CAL 34 after being dismasted and went with 7mm Dux instead of stainless about four years ago and we're very glad about our decision.

The boat has been in the Caribbean the entire time and the DUX still looks good. Plus, in the time period the rig has been up we experienced two catastrophic Category 5 hurricanes and the rig had no problems at all.

If you could tell me more about your current rig I'd be happy to explain several workarounds in aid of a less expensive outlay.

[CapnK]

Funny, before posting I looked thru your blog and also the one you linked to see if there were any recent updates/info. :)

If I were to re-rig the I-36, she already has Sta-lok studs, so I'd only need the upper terminals and wire, making cost only ~$1100 or so.

I saw some other blogs where they were using low fiction rings as terminals, which would save considerably over buying the Colligo gear, as nice as it may be. One of them was talking about fabbing there own 'cheeky tangs' using UHMWHPE.

Would be great to hear more about what you've done, experienced, and observed. At the price for regular Amsteel, a 2/3 savings compared to Dux or other heat-stretched Dyneemas, I wonder if dealing with 'creep' wouldn't be worth the savings? Thinking on that, this is a double spreader rig - I guess one would set the spreaders the inch or so high needed so that when stretch came out, they'd be properly positioned... On the Youtube Sailing Freedom channel, Plukky rigged small positioning wires to the spreaders so that his Dyneema would float over the tips. More 'stuff' in that solution, tho. :) He's been in Panama/western Carib 4-5 years now with it, and I asked him for an update as to how it seemed to be holding up, but he has been too busy chasing new young female crew to answer the Q, apparently.

[skylark]

Is there a way to make your own low friction rings?

[s/v Faith]

Isn’t the big difference ‘weight aloft’?…..   not sure why one would go that way otherwise…  :P