Cruising & Firearms

[dnice]

This seems like a taboo subject in cruising. I hear reports, but few direct reports in either direction.

I am not asking if you should cruise with a firearm. I think its up to the individual and either opinion should be respected.

I want to hear from those who do.... or from those who think they should. (all other opinions welcome)

To add even more confluence to this river... I am not allowed to own firearms in the US (long story, but I've a felony record and can't own a gun)... So I'm wondering how that would affect cruising outside of the US.

Say for example, I left the US and bought a gun somewhere in Central America... would I need to worry about my status in the US when entering other countries? or could I keep it until I made my way back to the US? (then throw it overboard or seomthing  :-\ )

I'm not overly concerned... I think I can handle most situations without worry, but things are changing around the world and when the time comes, I'd rather have it, than not.....

I'm asking this in response to a recent article on noonsite:

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2009-04-15-3

On Saturday 7th April motoring along the Venezuelan coast just past Tres Puntos, I noticed a penero coming up astern about a mile away. Looking through binoculars I saw 4 men armed with AK47s and shotguns.

I headed north out to open sea at full speed. They came up on my stb'd quarter and shot out the aft window in the wheelhouse. A piece of glass hit my crew member in the neck and I told her to get below. I was not going to stop, they were trying to kill us I have no doubt about that.

They fired 16 shots to the hull and wheelhouse shooting most of the windows out. I sustained a head and shoulder wound.

I returned fire with the only weapon I had, a large older flare gun, which I fired at the pirates at close range (about 30 feet) on my port quarter. I headed into the swells at full speed so my vessel was almost bouncing off the waves making it difficult for them to board, plus the added threat of them being lit up by a flare.

Eventually after realizing they wouldn't be able to board me in the fading light they broke off the attack. These men, or at least two of them, had military training by the nature of their shooting.

After my experience I would carry a firearm in future. I've read and heard all the advice from the armchair Rambos - smoke screens, pepper spray etc., Once these thugs are on board you have no chance. Keep them at bay with a few shots and I'm sure they will break off their attack as they did with me.

(I feel that) cruising Venezuela now is out of control. There is no law enforcement anywhere in these waters, even if you do raise the coastguard or Guardia national they are not interested and most people think they are in cahoots with the pirates after you've checked out. I actually live and work in Venezuela and have travelled along the coast of Paria more then a dozen times, but in recent years there have been reports of serious aggrevated attacks on cruisers.

This attack on me was more like a terrorist attack. No warning shot in the air, just one through the wheelhouse window and then when I didn't stop, it was a full on shooting of the boat. I have five bullets to the hull at the waterline, and the rest to the wheelhouse and windows. I called the Trinidad coastguard who monitored my progress but no assistance was given by any coastguard or military agency. The Trinidad coastguard did come to my assistance once I was in the Boca at Trinidad.

Lawlessness is rife in Venezuela now, a great pity as most of the people are warm and friendly. After 20 years cruising these waters it's time to move on.

[chris2998]

I've read mised stories online about owning a gun on a boat I don't know man, I think I'd carry a 357 magnum onboard. Just the scarry part is going into some country that don't allow guns or just simply don't go to that country at all. I read a book I can't remember the dang name of it about a guy who sailed around the world in a 31ft pacific seacraft and he carried a shotgun and he says he wouldn't dare go without one. He talks about in his book he encounters some pirates
along his adventure and this was back in I think 1987-1989. Today things are way more screwd up.  guess worst comes to worse pitch it overboard.

I wouldn't think if you were to own a gun in another country and sail outside of US water that it would affect you now if you came back into US waters then yeah you prabally should get rid of it.

I think the 17 year old Zac Sunderland is carrying a gun onboard seems like one of his blogs I read said something about that.

[LooseMoose]

The BIG problem is simply that almost anywhere you'd want to sail to will have very strong laws about the possession of guns on board a boat. Failure to declare said guns or ammunition is of course breaking the law and breaking laws in a lot of places means serious prison time, huge fines and in many cases confiscation of your boat.

So it is a big decision...

Having been cruising since the early eighties I have been boarded and inspected many many times and the two things they are ALWAYS looking for is drugs and guns. Whats more, the guys inspecting and searching are very very good at what they do . So if you have any ideas about being able to have a place on board that will escape their attention... think again. If after a second thought you still think you are brighter than customs and drug enforcement guys give me a call as I have a great deal on a metal tower in the middle of Paris I'd like to sell you, Such a deal!

Which means that in most places you feel you might need a gun it will not be on board but will be checked at the local  station or some such as most countries will impound your gun for the duration of your stay. Which also means that you most likely will have to leave said country from the entry point which will cause all sorts of havoc to most peoples cruising plans. By  the way when they return it to you you will find that more than likely your gun will have been used and abused in your absence!

However you look at it it is seriously problematic. My experience is that there are a lot less places to avoid due to crime than places I'd have to avoid because I can't carry a gun there. For me the math is pretty easy... avoid a half dozen places or don't go to 90% of the places I'd like to...HMMM

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

[keelbolts]

Firearms threads pop up from time to time in all cruising forums.  Nothing ever comes of them.  Some people see them as just another item on the list of safety items any self-sufficient boater should have on board when going offshore.  Some people are deathly afraid of weapons, hoping that others will leave them alone or save them when they don't.  There is a smaller group who generally believe in self-sufficiency, but wish to avoid the problems associated with entering foreign ports w/ a firearm onboard.  You rarely see anybody change their minds in these threads.  I think the only thing I've learned from them was that many foreign officials seem to respond more positively to a shotgun than other types of firearms.


Perhaps the trick is to stay away from places where you'd need your gun and places where the people aren't free.  Unfortunately, that covers a lot of beautiful places.

[Bluenose]

I have always been a bit perplexed by the whole firearm and cruising debate. For me firearms on a boat are all about fear as I don't think that the average cruiser would really do that well against a group of well armed pirates (which is often the stated reason for being armed).

It often seems more like an armchair type debate since I haven't really read any well published world cruisers that promote carrying firearms.

But maybe my reading list isn't well rounded enough.  ;D

I also think that carrying firearms affects the image and welcome we receive as Americans when we travel to someone else's home.

[s/v Faith]

......To add even more confluence to this river... I am not allowed to own firearms in the US (long story, but I've a felony record and can't own a gun)... So I'm wondering how that would affect cruising outside of the US.

Say for example, I left the US and bought a gun somewhere in Central America... would I need to worry about my status in the US when entering other countries? or could I keep it until I made my way back to the US? (then throw it overboard or seomthing  :-\ ).....

 I think you would best avoid this.  In the event you are in a position to use the gun, the local authorities are likely to be less then sympathetic (what ever you say the circumstances are).  You are likely to need the help of your local consulate to secure your freedom.  

 If you can not legally possess a firearm in your own country, you are probably less likely to receive sympathy if you have to use it somewhere else.

[max_hyde]

If you are caught in UK territorial waters with an unregistered firearm, minimum sentence is 5 years, there is no mitigation to this, and from personal experience trust me it will be found.......

[Captain Smollett]

I haven't really read any well published world cruisers that promote carrying firearms.

The Pardey's have published their views on this topic in numerous places.  They are against guns on board cruising boats, but it seems, to me at least, to be more a matter of personal philosophy for them rather than any great practical issue.

[keelbolts]

Again, you can go places where the people are free.  There's a difference between being a subject & citizen.  Unfortunately, there are so few places left where the people are free. At the rate we're going, there won't be any place soon.  

I would be interested to know how many people carry a gun ashore, but choose to leave it at home when they're cruising.  I suspect that those who are against guns while cruising are equally against them at home. 

[dnice]

Everybody talks about the checkin problems with guns, but of the few people who I know for sure keep a gun on board, they rarely have a problem with customs. You just claim it (no I wasn't planning on hiding it from anybody) and they do their thing and move on. I haven't heard any first hand problems with customs, its always the people who don't carry a gun that say its a problem. From what I understand if its locked up they usually put a tag on the lock and expect it to be there when you check out.
But maybe they are avoiding certain places.. I don't know.

I fully intend to sail to poorer countries with problems. Although I don't think I'll get stupid and try to go Somalia any time soon :) But countries like Nicaragua, Venezuela and eventually all around the South China Sea are high priorities on my list of places to cruise.

Some of the places I've lived here in the US I believe are far more dangerous than anything I am expecting to encounter while cruising, but for all the years I kept guns in the house or in the car, I never thought that it was necessary, It was just reassuring to know its there.

this story isn't the first one I've read where having a gun on board (not shooting anybody!) saved the day. Most 'pirates' and or whatever, prey on the weak and often a 'show of force' is the appropriate method of defense.
so for me, having a gun isn't about defending myself on board my boat. I am quite sure that once somebody has boarded a gun will just make matter worse, and more than likely its already too late to go get the gun.

Its the ability to prevent a boarding in the first place that makes sense to me and would be my intentions.

I dunno... maybe I could find something else to use.
I suppose a flare gun would be just as handy in most situations, it worked for the guy in this story.

[LooseMoose]

Just for the record I do have some personal experience on the matter...

These days I only carry spearguns  and they are becoming more than enough hassle for me to be seriously considering selling them off when I have an opportunity! The idea of being hit with a $10,000 fine AND seizure of my boat for not bringing in my spearguns is not to be trifled with when visiting the BVI. For what its worth they take firearms a LOT more seriously than spearguns.

Just about every island in the Caribbean requires impoundments of any guns and that includes the USVI, BVI. St Martin, St Bart's and so on right down to Trinidad. Long gone are the days of mentioning a gun to customs and them saying "no problem"

I do know cruisers who carry guns half of which hide them and live in fear and the other half who female dog and moan about how they have to sail back to pick up their gun from impound when it would be much easier to just sail on to the next country/island.

I'm not for or against guns but I am in the Caribbean and have been cruising for a fair bit and guns are a serious hassle. As a felon you also won't be able to show any paperwork or permits for your home country so more than likely the first time you show your gun to customs it will be the last you see of it and the last hassle you will have with a gun on board as they would most likely confiscate it... They do love their paperwork down here!
Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

[captain cajun]

When you have a gun, the question to me  is,  when to pull the trigger.  Now that I am old, and no one to defend,  I would not have a gun on the boat to protect myself.  They can have the propety, and possessions. Now to defend the wife, well this is a must.  So would I  put myself or my sweetie in harms way, no I would not.  Yes, you may say I am a coward, but trying to be hero, just never seemed to work for me.  Life is about choices,  for myself I choose peace.  

[Bluenose]

I suspect that those who are against guns while cruising are equally against them at home. 

I personally don't own guns, my own personal choice to not live in fear. That said, I am perfectly fine with anyone who chooses to own and use guns responsibly. And I am fully in favor of the rights provided in our constitution.

But... I don't think it is right for us to take our rights and our ideals into other countries. But that is just me. The idea of visiting another country, for me, is to be in another country.

But to each their own.

[dnice]

LooseMoose thats interesting. Do they not allow spearguns because they consider it a weapon? or does it have to do with fishing regulations? Would a pole spear be considered the same thing? how do they handle flare guns?


I haven't owned a gun for several years now and I'm fairly confident in my ability to defend myself without one.
I don't want this to be a moral argument about owning guns. But I have to say, owning a gun does not equate to living in fear. If somebody keeps an EPIRB on their boat, are they living in fear? Its just about having options. And obviously everybody has different opinions about this and I respect everybodys right to make their own choice. But thats not what I'm asking about here.


So let me ask this in a different way....

Are there any reasonable steps you can take to avoid being boarded in the case of an obvious badguys with guns in a motor boat approaching your vessel, out of sight of land, in a foreign country?
How do you go about preventing a possible attack? or do you just surrender and hope they take what they want and not hurt you?

Avoiding poor countries is not an acceptable answer. Crime happens everywhere and I choose not to live in fear :P

[LooseMoose]

Spearguns are mostly about fishing regulations... Pole spears are illegal in most of the Caribbean as well.

My phrase "living in fear" was in reference to living in fear that they might be boarded by the authorities who would find their gun and throw them in jail! Which truth be told is much more likely than a villian boarding your boat...

I have sailed from The Med to Africa and then to the Caribbean  and never had a problem with theft or anyone accosting us on the high seas. I'd say that the reason is simply not being dumb...

The best way to avoid being a target is not to flash money, have stuff hanging off your boat that might attract folks of the wrong sort. Anchor out further than folks care to swim. Keep and ear out to the coconut telegraph and don't go where there are currently problems... That sort of stuff.

Its not the wild west down here and half the so called crimes against cruisers don't even really happen but are told and retold tales or mistaken id of the a fisherman comes by to offer to sell or trade some lobster the next day is retold as almost boarded by an AK47 wielding pirate...
Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

[thistlecap]

As always in these discussions, the subject is guns, and not the real issue---the one really at the center of whether you carry a weapon or not.  Other than hunting or target competition, guns have one and only one purpose.  If you have in mind carrying a weapon to scare people, ward them off, or otherwise hold them at bay, you are not prepared to have a weapon.  In a confrontational scenario, on a boat or in your home, when you produce a weapon, you have put the other person in fear for their life and left them with no option but to meet force with force.  As a criminal, that person is already in a mindset to kill if necessary, and you have just made it necessary.  So guns are not the issue.  The issue is whether or not you have the capability to kill, to take another person's life.  You have to know beyond a doubt that when you lay your hand on that weapon, that you have both the ability and the intention to use lethal force.

Beyond the moral and personal fortitude issues, few people have the desire to commit the necessary time to learn how to properly carry and use a weapon.  The most dangerous person, especially to himself, is one with a weapon without the needed training and experience. If you have a weapon, you need to fire at least a box of rounds a month to remain proficient in the use of the weapon and how to confidently acquire a target without aiming.  It will most likely be dark, and you won't have time to sight even if you could see the sights.  Sights are for targets more than 60 feet away.  Most personal confrontations will occur within 15 feet. The weapon must be part of you and its use as second nature as the use of your fingers.  There will be no time to load, to see if the safety is on or off, or remember if there's a round already in the chamber.  Further, there won't be time to think.  Your actions must be intuitive.  In less than a second you must be able to resolve the legal conditions and ramifications, the shoot/don't shoot decision, and acquire the target.  That only comes with a lot of training and practice.     From experience, I can assure you it will all be over in less than two seconds.  Either you will have acted, or you will have been acted upon.

You will also ramp up your responsibilities in many other ways.  Even if you never need to use the weapon, its mere possession can have life changing consequences.  You have to be certain it cannot be used against yourself, cannot fall into the wrong hands, cannot be accessed by children, cannot be accidentally used against a family member in the middle of the night while you are half asleep, and when and where you have it isn't putting you in legal jeopardy.  If you carry it, its presence must always be in mind as it will determine what buildings you can enter, where you can go, where you can store it safely if you have to leave it, if you will create a disturbance by its visibility, or if you are properly permitted to carry it in that locale concealed, where other people are and if they are in a position to strip it from you, and so one.  The obvious point that comes here is that if you have that kind of situational awareness, you probably won't put yourself in a position to need a weapon in the first place.  The unavoidable truth is that most victims are targeted because they've done something stupid that has marked them as vulnerable, like carrying large sums of money that they've displayed publicly, are wearing gold chains, expensive jewelry, are carrying expensive cameras, going to unsavory places or out-of-the-way unpopulated areas, or walked alone in remote areas or late at night.  A rose is a rose, is a rose, is a rose, and people are people, are people, are people.  Cruising to a third-world country is not what makes you a target.  Whether you are in  Washington, D.C., St. Thomas, or Cape Town, being smart about what you do, how you act, and where you go will have more of an impact on your safety than having a weapon.  Lastly, the use of a weapon is usually an issue in a one-on-one confrontational scenario.  It isn't worth even bringing up in a pirate attack question.  Unless you have at least a half-dozen automatic weapons and the trained people on board to use them, brandishing a weapon in such a situation will only guarantee your demise.  Whether you possess or carry a weapon is 5% of the issue.  The remaining ninety-five percent of the issue concerns training and when, where, and how you use lethal force.

[dnice]

Ok, So i've been reading about this on other sites and there is already a lot of information out there. And of course multitudes of opinions.

The subject is in fact guns. Not the responsibilites of owning one. But you make some good points nonetheless. I don't agree that most victims are doing something stupid, but obviously there are ways to avoid being a target. although I know from my own experiences, stuff happens whether you do everything right or not.

It appears that the hassle of transporting a gun between ports is enough for me to not want to carry one. But I am sad to learn that the same hassles will apply to spears and flare guns (in some countries)...
I wonder how customs officials would treat a ninja sword? :D

Customs are a tricky issue. I hate to think that I could end up in prison because I had percocet in my med-kit or because my flare gun was considered a firearm. Thank god for the internet! I'm sure information will be readily available whenever I move to a new country.

As far as how to deal with an outright pirate attack... I guess that can only be answered right then and there. I believe having a gun would be ideal, but most things rarely happen in an ideal form or fashion anyway.

[Bluenose]

But I have to say, owning a gun does not equate to living in fear.

Does owning a gun equate to living in fear? No. But I think rationalizing owning a gun on a boat because of pirate attacks does. I believe this because the effort taken to prevent the potential incident seems excessive with respect to the odds of it happening. And real threats to our lives are completely ignored

Here is a pictorial description of the odds of dying in the US.



Now obviously they don't mention the odds of pirate attacks on the high seas. But all of our worst dying realities are health related, Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke. Where are the huge measures taken to prevent death from these likely issues during our cruise? As Americans we gladly ride motorcycles without helmets, drive without seatbelts, eat high fat foods and smoke. But we are deathly afraid of dying without our guns.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I have nothing against guns. I am just a proponent of honesty and reality. If you want a gun onboard go for it. You just don't have to use pirates as justification. You are probably far more likely to die driving to the marina than from pirate attacks. ;D

If somebody keeps an EPIRB on their boat, are they living in fear?

I will leave that one alone. :-\

Cheers, Bill

[dnice]

Owning a gun for self defense is based entirely on the highly unlikely event you would ever need it.
There is no secret there, no justification needed, and completely honest.

I really just wanted know about the difficulties of traveling with a gun. I tried to make this clear.
But after reading similar threads on other sites it is obvious this is too sensitive of a subject for a public forum.

[s/v Faith]

Owning a gun for self defense is based entirely on the highly unlikely event you would ever need it.
There is no secret there, no justification needed, and completely honest.

I really just wanted know about the difficulties of traveling with a gun. I tried to make this clear.
But after reading similar threads on other sites it is obvious this is too sensitive of a subject for a public forum.

  I am not sure what you are looking at to say this is too sensitive.  I do think that part of the problem with the discussion is that many (most?) who do carry firearms do not choose to advertise the fact, or discuss others opinions of their decision on the internet.