Cruising & Firearms

[newt]

Alright Kieth, make us get back on topic :D
Has anyone been to the Noonsite pages lately? What they are saying is pretty scary, and I must say that I am rethinking my no gun policy. Especially when a international security professional writes in and says that shotguns would be OK in most ports, and very useful to prevent the robbery/murders. I like the idea of a rifle too- where I could cook the other guys outboard if it was obvious that he meant harm.
I do not have a problem with defending myself, but I could harm someone else when there was no other way. Maybe I will just not get out of USCG waters...

[Godot]

I'm a gun guy.  I own guns.  I shoot guns.  I believe they are invaluably for personal protection as well as sport.  I would carry one if legal able (in Maryland, it is nearly impossible to do legally).

That said, life is a balancing game of risk versus reward.

In international cruising, the risk of being caught with an undeclared firearm outweighs the benefit.  Rotting in a third world jail (or frankly, any jail) is probably more dangerous than what you will find in your average port.  Plus freedom of movement is important.

Declaring a firearm would probably entail having it secured in some government safe somewhere, where it may not get the best treatment.  Plus, your movement would be drastically compromised by the need to pick it up before leaving.  Or, if they lock it onboard in a bonded locker it won't be immediately available if you need it.  Defeats the purpose.  Not much benefit.

Respecting the host country is important, too.  You may not agree with their laws; but you are a guest.  Comply or go home.  Not enough risk to justify giving up the reward.

What can you do?  Given a reasonable choice I'd take the firearms.  But the choice doesn't seem all that reasonable.  I'd leave them at home.

[Bluenose]

This whole issue, to me, seems typical of our fear based culture. Our media loves to highlight the extreme events and treat them like they are ordinary, everyday occurrences. So we hear about a the high profile pirate attacks or a private yachts being taking and never hear about the thousands and thousands of sea miles traveled in peace and safety.

There are so many things to be afraid of when contemplating an ocean voyage that if your actions are determined by fear, I imagine you will never leave.

For me guns would be like anything else looking for a coveted spot on a small boat. They would have to pay their way often and hopefully be useful for multiple tasks.

I just don't see it.

Cheers, Bill

[Godot]

I'm not sure I agree that it is a "fear based culture" issue.  Well, at least not in general.  I think it is a " being prepared" issue.  Sort of like carrying storm sails, storm anchors, sea anchors, EPIRBs, etc... Preparing for situations which should be avoidable for the most part with proper planning; but situations which could still come up regardless.  Instead of preparing against mother nature, it is preparing against fellow man.  Not an unreasonable thing to do, in my opinion.  Especially considering that as Americans (the majority of us here, I believe) we are automatically hated by many.  Tourists in general are assumed to be rich and easy pickings by many (and by comparison, usually are).  That's why folks are careful where they visit, they lock their boats, they don't keep all their cash in one place, stay in groups, etc...  Some places are very safe, others are very dangerous, most are in between. 

"Be prepared" isn't just a Boyscout slogan.  For some of us, it is a way of life.

Be aware of your surroundings.  Don't be obvious and flashy with money.  Be friendly and courteous.  Avoid known trouble areas (neighborhoods of Colón, Panama, for instance.  Or parts of Baltimore, for that matter).  All valid and effective ways of minimizing threat.  A firearm is just one more piece of the puzzle.  A piece which has practical difficulties.

BTW, in the little boats we sail, we probably aren't big targets for piracy, and probably couldn't carry enough firepower to repel serious pirates anyhow (I'm thinking the kind that got into trouble a few weeks ago).

[Bluenose]

I'm not sure I agree that it is a "fear based culture" issue.  Well, at least not in general.  I think it is a " being prepared" issue.  Sort of like carrying storm sails, storm anchors, sea anchors, EPIRBs, etc... Preparing for situations which should be avoidable for the most part with proper planning; but situations which could still come up regardless.  Instead of preparing against mother nature, it is preparing against fellow man.  Not an unreasonable thing to do, in my opinion.  Especially considering that as Americans (the majority of us here, I believe) we are automatically hated by many.  Tourists in general are assumed to be rich and easy pickings by many (and by comparison, usually are).  That's why folks are careful where they visit, they lock their boats, they don't keep all their cash in one place, stay in groups, etc...  Some places are very safe, others are very dangerous, most are in between. 

"Be prepared" isn't just a Boyscout slogan.  For some of us, it is a way of life.

Be aware of your surroundings.  Don't be obvious and flashy with money.  Be friendly and courteous.  Avoid known trouble areas (neighborhoods of Colón, Panama, for instance.  Or parts of Baltimore, for that matter).  All valid and effective ways of minimizing threat.  A firearm is just one more piece of the puzzle.  A piece which has practical difficulties.

BTW, in the little boats we sail, we probably aren't big targets for piracy, and probably couldn't carry enough firepower to repel serious pirates anyhow (I'm thinking the kind that got into trouble a few weeks ago).

Adam,

Exactly. Being prepared. I get it and agree with it.

Storm sails... not if but when you will use them. Same with storm anchors and drogues. They are prudent because the event is likely to happen so you plan for them.

I just don't see how firearms fall into the same category as storm sails.

We all probably read and reread the Pardey's. They have used their storm gear countless times but never had the need for firearms in all their thousands of miles at sea. Now, I am not saying some wouldn't I am just saying the likelihood is nowhere near the same as storm gear for instance.

And for me, and only me, when people, or cultures worry about something a disproportionate amount to the likelihood if its chance of happening, it seems fear based.

And as I mentioned before, if someone wants to take a gun on board, go for it. I just don't understand rationalizing the decision based a statistically insignificant chance of an attack happening to someone cruising in a small boat.

As a bit of an aside, today I had a lovely little day sail and I happen upon an Etchells (a neat one design raceboat). I just love boats that all all sail so I grabbed the camera and started shooting. With this thread fresh in my mind and the current and wind chop tossing the boat around, I couldn't help wondering how you would hit someone or something with a firearm on small boat. I was having a hard enough time with the camera. Maybe someone could enlighten me. ::)

Cheers, Bill

[Frank]

I've laid off posting on this one......seems like a ford-chev talk....or worst yet- politics  ;D  But seeing as it keeps coming back...here goes.
I honestly do not see how a firearm will help you.
      scenario #1
             You are at sea making 5 knots...you are approached by a power boat at speed with armed men.
             You A- come up with your pistol in a show of strength..hopefully they leave.They do not and come
                        alongside.You fire, killing one.You are then shot dead.They get your belongings.
                    B-you come up unarmed, they come alongside-theaten-you give them your belongings.
              Same result-2  less people dead. Face it...you will NEVER be a match for a armed speedboat 
             
    scenario #2
              You are boarded at night by an armed man
              You A-come up with a pistol and fire.He dies and you are in a strange country and a legal mess
                     or............you get shot
                     or............don't fire and he gets scared off by your gun

  Any of these would have the same or BETTER result with a flare gun.  At least you'll be seen,be legal and avoid BS.

                 This message brought to you by a multiple gun owner

                 we will now return to our regularly scheduled program

                 I like eggs

[dnice]

I think Godot was just making a case for preparedness not being equal to fear. He wasn't saying guns are directly comparable to storm gear.

I have personally been in situations in my life where A: having a gun was not only helpful, but completely changed the outcome (for the better) of a seriously dangerous situation.

and B: Having a gun would have prevented the death of 2 innocent people.

If I am ever in a similar situation to B again, I certainly hope I have a gun at the time. I didn't have one that time because it was a "safe" place and an event like that was about as likely as our house being crushed by a meteor, and what was even more unlikely was that I would be there for it.

Situation A could have got ugly, but it didn't, and I don't regret my actions or having a gun one bit.

In situation A, it was not luck that I had a gun. I obtained it specifically because I was aware of deteriorating conditions in the area and the possibility of violence was becoming more and more likely (very quickly).

Ok so thats twice in the last 12 years... now explain to me again how unlikely it is?
You may think where you are, or where you are planning to cruise is safe. but things can change very quickly and you don't always know when, where or how.

Does this mean you (or I) should live in fear and anticipate danger around every corner? No absolutely not.
but considering the possibility and weighing your options is not only reasonable, its perfectly sensible.

Does this mean carrying a gun is the right thing to do? Not for most people. but its ok to talk about it and consider the possibilities.

I plan to cruise in places that other people consider "dangerous" and I will NOT be bringing a gun, but only because the logistics and legalities make it impractical and in most cases, useless. But, that little boyscout inside my head still says to bring one...

Accusing people of being scared, or assuming that anybody here is motivated by the media or the propagation of fear in whatever format, is downright insulting IMO.

I would consider Zac Sunderland one seriously brave 16 year old kid. DESPITE the fact that he is carrying a firearm, 2 radars, multiple epirbs and a liferaft!!! :D

Every form of preparedness is, on some level, fear based. but its rational fear, the kind of fear that keeps people alive. I would say this type of fear is far more rational than having your head up your...(in the clouds)... believing that nothing bad will ever happen to you.

I completely agree with what everybody here has said about respecting the laws and customs of other countries, but I can assure you, if you're in a place where you have to defend yourself with firearm, the last thing you should be worried about are the legal consequences.

BTW: here is proof that a flare gun will not work in a self defense situation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTU2o3LGumI

[Amgine]

::shrug:: I'm involved in health research among adolescents. Let me assure you that, for the most part, everything you hear about all the risky, dangerous behavior of teens is happening to a teeny tiny microscopic portion of the population, orders of magnitude less common than sailors getting caught out by hurricanes. But the press is all over that.

And that is my basis for considering Bluenose to be right on when xe says 'fear based'.

For your plans 'to cruise in places that other people consider "dangerous"' I wish you great luck and skill! I hope to do the same, in waters without land or people. But I think part of the 'Be Prepared' mantra includes avoiding unnecessary risks far more than being able to clean up after getting the expected outcomes of unnecessary risks. I can't avoid making passages, so they are necessary risk taking.

[s/v Copacetic]

I will start by saying that I am a gun owner. I shoot both bullseye and IDPA competition. I am trained in both firearm safety (NRA) and defensive shooting (Front Sight) and I generally carry when traveling where legal. It is not currently legal to carry in my home state.

On my boat I carry flares, pfd's, fire extinguisher and other items I hope to never need. I don't do this out of fear, but out of the knowledge that only I am responsible for the safety of my family and myself.

Having said all that, I would like a discussion on just what the regulations for armed cruisers are in various countries, preferably by people who have been there and done that. There is far too much "I heard..." and "a friend told me..." anytime this subject comes up. I suspect that those among us who go armed by sea are much like those of us on land, keeping a low profile and often being reluctant to discuss it.

At present my only definite international destination is the Bahamas, which I understand has a pretty simple procedure for firearms on boats.

[geneWj]

When cruising Mexico, sea of Cortez and other places, I have always carried a
Cross bow. Tell me it isn't a survival tool.
Its certainly not a gun!

[Godot]

I've been gone doing non-boat stuff for awhile; but this is a pet issue of mine, so I thought I'd chime back in.  I will try to avoid any political talk, and try and stick to the practical and philosophical...

Violent crime is not rare.  At all.  A few months ago someone was shot across the street from my house in my respectable middle class neighborhood.   On June 15th, the clerk in the convenience store at the base of my street (a whole 4 minute walk away) was shot during a robbery.   Last week the owner of a liquor store I sometimes visit was shot.  Six months ago a girl I know was smashed in the back of her head with a baseball bat (she is still dealing with complications) for $40.  None of this happened in what would normally be considered bad neighborhoods, although it all happened in Baltimore which is not your most peaceful city.  About two years ago I missed getting mugged (gun point) by about ten seconds as I left a party in a fairly well to do neighborhood outside of DC (my mind is blanking on the name of the town), just because I stopped to shake one last hand and another guest (who got mugged instead) left a few seconds before me.

The economy is not healthy, and is still deteriorating (although the argument is being made that the deterioration is slowing).  Desperate people are beginning to appear in greater numbers.  This is a worldwide phenomena.  If you visit many countries outside of the normal high security tourist areas, it pays to be alert.  Sure, the odds may be with you on not being molested; but they aren't so far in your favor that it can be disregarded.

Also, in regards to the big news stories getting people worked up, well, there is a flip side.  Typically only the most heinous crimes get sensationalized.  The vast majority of crime gets, maybe, a line or two in a newspaper.  And maybe not even that.

While there is certainly no one size fits all plan for personal defense, overall nothing beats a gun for self defense.  A 105 pound 75 year old grandma at least has a chance with a handgun against a twenty year old thug.   With some training, maybe even a quite decent chance.

Oh, and as a matter of a personal philosophy, I don't believe in letting a bad guy off the hook if it is in my power to stop him.  Sure, my life might be worth more the the $20 in my wallet; but there is no guarantee he will let me go after he gets the money.  And even if he lets me go, what about the next person.  Or the person after that.  Violent, anti-social behavior shouldn't be encouraged by inaction.  But, that is just me.

Just to be clear, as far as cruising is concerned, it is probably obvious that I consider the biggest threats to be street crime, and armed burglaries over organized pirate attacks on our modest little boats.

I sound far more alarming in this post than I really intended.  The point I meant to make was that violent crime is not so rare as to not require preparation.  Being aware of your environment goes a long way to being safe; but there are no guarantees. 

[Amgine]

However, you might consider that your country is considered gun-mad and hyper-violent. The city I live in is only a few million people, and is nearly paralyzed by a gang-war which has resulted in 50 homicides in the past 10 months, nearly twice the annual average.

(This is somewhat tongue in cheek. As a United Stater here I'm constantly amused by the - mmm, how to say it - excitability of Canadians regarding 'social ills'.)

[nowell]

I actually like these threads to a certain point. I like seeing everyones views and opinions. It makes for some really good reading. I mean that in all honesty also.

Personally, I won't keep a firearm on board.

In the home? Yes.

Marines trained me, and a few bad 3rd world countries tested that training.

Am I confident in my abilities? Very much so.

That being said, there are ALWAYS other options. At the end of the day, its your actions that decide the outcome. Personally, I would use every evasive wait to prevent someone boarding the boat. If on the boat, and I felt myself in danger, I have no doubt in my abilities to make a "few" people "reconsider".

At the end of the day tho, like was said earlier, there are ways to make yourself less of a target. I guess thats another advantage to the "SailFar" mentality. Our small boats aren't as much of a target as that Oyster 56 thats next to you with 4 or 5 Grey hairs on board sipping a cold drink with a pinky finger sticking out!

[Oldrig]

Hey, Nowell, watch what you say about us "Gray hairs!"

But at least my pinky isn't sticking out--and my 25D isn't exactly an Oyster 56.

Seriously, I tend to agree with those who argue against carrying firearms aboard. Of course I live in Massachusetts, where I just discovered that the two firearms I've been keeping in a locked closet for almost 25 years became illegal at some time while I was living in another state.

I called my local police station to see what I needed to do to get an updated Firearms ID, and discovered that the application (which includes an affadavit stating that I have read and understood the guidelines for the use of deadly force, which had to be witnessed by a third party).

And, the application fee is $100.

Sorry for the rant. All I really wanted to do is sell my two rifles--and I might not be able to do that legally without a FID.

So, forget about cruising with a firearm aboard in foreign waters: Don't bring guns into Massachusetts if you know what's good for you.

--Joe

[David_Old_Jersey]

I actually like these threads to a certain point. I like seeing everyones views and opinions. It makes for some really good reading. I mean that in all honesty also.

Me too.  8)

[s/v Faith]

I still hold to my earlier comments.


  I like cheese.



But I will add that one reason most (many?) (all?)  of these discussions don't come to mush is because most with any sense who do carry guns aboard do not care to broadcast such info across the internet.  Those who do carry and tell are either less cautious or less concerned with the consequences.

Just a thought.

[nowell]

Sending a grog your way for running with the joke! No offense, all in fun!  ;D

Hey, Nowell, watch what you say about us "Gray hairs!"

But at least my pinky isn't sticking out--and my 25D isn't exactly an Oyster 56.

...

--Joe

[Oldrig]

Nowell,

No offense taken! The way my hair is thinning, I'll soon be known only as a graybeard, rather than a "gray hair" anyway.  ;D

--Joe

[Bluenose]

To me, this just seems like one of those topics, like politics and religion, where emotions rule. No amount of data will convince the people on either side of the argument.

I have always been a tall tent pole type. I go after the large risk factors first and then work my way down the list. With:

Heart Disease at 1 in 5
Cancer at 1 in 7
Stroke at 1 in 24
Motor Vehicle Death at 1 in 84
Suicide at 1 in 119
Falling at 1 in 218

and finally

Firearms at 1 in 314

It seems like I could be much better rewarded in my life by looking at the top 3 or 4 rather than worrying about being shot.

But to each their own. I still think if a person feels they need a gun on board, they probably do. And they should do what they need to to feel safe.

Oh, and I really, really love cheese. Especially in the form of Quesadillas.

Cheers, Bill

[s/v Faith]

.......Oh, and I really, really love cheese. Especially in the form of Quesadillas.

Cheers, Bill

Yes, and now you have a grog to enjoy them with.   ;)