Dreaming of designs again

[Amgine]

This is actually kinda aimed at Bluenose, because he's more familiar than I am with the general class of knockabout sloops.

I've always been attracted to the long, narrow designs such as the Dark Harbor 20. These boats had large, lively rigs and with their narrow waterlines were surprisingly fast and comfortable boats, especially compared to some of the modern fat-n-flat designs who might beat them upwind in light going but generally will be beating their crew in any kind of a sea. (My opinion.) On the other hand, most of these low-slung beauties were so wet you might as well wear a wetsuit.

So what I'm wondering is what the range of these beautiful boats are there? How many were built in fibreglass? But most importantly, are any of them large enough for a single-hander or couple for somewhat more extended cruising, say a 4-8 weeks aboard? I'm thinking something in the 35' LOD, 8' beam, but of course it's more a question of displacement and layout.

[Bluenose]

Interesting question. First I'll get all the disclaimers out of the way. I am certainly not an expert on all things related to "knockabout sloops". In addition, my opinions are pretty idealistic and very subjective. They are far more relevant to a world of sailing that existed 30 or 40 years ago but is pretty well extinct today. If nothing else, I will post plenty of pictures to aid in the digestion of my viewpoints.

Wooden Boat had a very good and informative article on knockabout sloops in issue number 190. Fortunately it is also available on line.

http://www.woodenboat-digital.com/woodenboat/20060506/?pg=69

In addition, I have two vintage article reprints on my blog about knockabout sloops.

http://knockaboutsloops.blogspot.com/2007/09/canoeing-sailing-and-motor-boating.html

http://knockaboutsloops.blogspot.com/2007/09/modern-knockabout-in-1905-by-captain-j.html

I think the short answer to your question is no. In today's world of "cruising necessities", I don't think two people could cruise in comfort for 4 to 8 weeks on a 35 ft knockabout. Again based on today's view of comfort.

Our boat, Bolero, ended up being very, very similar to the old Sparkman & Stephen designed Dark Harbor 20 (the Shields was also an S&S design).



Here is a portion of a table I assembled to compare various old, knockabout type sailboats.



The problem, and the beauty, of these old knockabouts is that they are long and skinny. With long beautiful (in my opinion) overhangs and a cabin design that is in harmony with the rest of their sleekness. That means small. We just have sitting headroom in ours. No galley, no head, no motor, no permanent electricity... you get the idea.

What we do have is a pretty light weight 30 ft boat with a wad of sail area and an incredible ballast ratio. We do plan to weekend her around the San Juan Islands but just in a different way then is typical. One thing she isn't though, is particularly wet. One of the other modern advancement that she doesn't have is a raised cockpit sole to facilitate self draining. This creates a rather snug and dry cockpit. Sort of like in this old photo of Gimcrack (the S&S prototype for the Dark Harbor 20)



Now, certainly as you move up in size thing get progressively larger. But not much. I tried to keep Bolero's cabintop design similar to the style of tradition knockabouts. Which is about 1/6 of the length on deck. Certainly my choice isn't cast in stone but most of the knockabout that I found in my research had large powerful mainsails and small jibs with mast just in front of the cabintop.

I included the International One Design because she is similar to the knockabout concept and starts to approach the 35 ft length you mentioned. Notice the "huge" increase in the size of the cabin top ;D. In addition, I believe they are available in fiberglass.



One of the interesting things, for me, about how boating has changed over the years, is that knockabout were, day sailed, raced and cruised. Yep they were pretty adventuress back then. Especially when you consider that the Dark Harbor 20 was one of the larger knockabouts.

I guess it all comes down to what your priorities are. It was pretty easy for me since beauty and sailing abilities were number 1 and 2 on my list. I came to this project thinking that every year many, many people paddle to Alaska from Seattle in kayaks. And people take their West Wright Potter's all over. In my view a knockabout compares pretty well either of these choices. But again, I am pretty far out there.

For a knockabout to equal the interior space of say a Pearson Ariel and still maintain the appropriate proportions, I would guess she would have to 40 plus feet on deck and carry 600 to 700 square feet of sail area. I haven't seen anything quite this large.

I will end there but leave you with one other possibility, the Metre Class sailboats. Here is a modest 6 metre. Cheers, Bill

[Frank]

Bluenose....love your taste in boats. I kinda chuckled at the "30 or 40 years ago" thing.  More like 50 or 60  :o

[Amgine]

OMG that 6mR is gorgeous! not that I'm interested in that much brightwork, but still! But ouch ouch ouch! on the price of those boats!

Knockabouts actually had a 'revival' in the post-war years, Frank, more so in Europe than in the states. The reason, of course, is the reason why they first gained popularity in the Depression years - a relatively inexpensive yet very fast and challenging racing boat.

Personally, I'd cruise a Dark Harbor 17.5. But I admit partiality to being able to stand up whilst donning my foully bibs. And convincing the partner to join with... Maybe a discreet dodger over the companionway. Well, you've given me some things to think about. I'm trying to imagine one of these designs with a very modest sink-and-stove, some kind of heater stove, with a gaff & topsail rig. Or a bermudan of 40' or so on deck, with a touch less sail than you were suggesting.

You know one of the biggest disappointments is how the larger meter rule boats have been cut up and tricked out for racing, pretty much ruining them for possible cruising. But then, they were never really designed for it either.

[Bluenose]

Bluenose....love your taste in boats. I kinda chuckled at the "30 or 40 years ago" thing.  More like 50 or 60  :o

Frank, of course you are right. Bad math on my part. I think I used my boat as an example. She is "only" 40 years old but has benefited from a trip to a skilled plastic surgeon to became a faux knockabout. I guess the knockabout style really dates back to the first part of the 1900's.

OMG that 6mR is gorgeous! not that I'm interested in that much brightwork, but still! But ouch ouch ouch! on the price of those boats!

I don't remember ever saying beauty was going to be cheap. And I won't even try to rationalize that Bolero's conversion wasn't real money. I sort of knew what I wanted going in, but at the same time I knew what a use Alerion Express 28 sold for.



Bolero had to turn out better and be more cost effective the Alerion Express 28 or I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger. We definitely came in under the AE 28 cost. And as far as beauty and performance goes I guess that is debatable depending who you ask (don't ask me as I am highly prejudiced). I guess what I am trying to say in too many word, is that anything is possible. You just never know until you look under a bunch of rocks.

Interestingly, when I was searching for an old beater Shields for Bolero's conversion an empty fiberglass Rozinante hull and standing rigging went on ebay and sold for like $500. That could have been a gorgeous, new Rozinante for the price of many ordinary boats. You just never know.

Cheers and happy dreams,

Bill

Oh, this photo of Bolero taken from a float plane was posted yesterday on the Classic Plastic Forum. http://plasticclassicforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4350

She looks really, really small.

[Amgine]

Yes, I expected the price would be a substantial step up from where I'm at, which is why at the moment this is a casual dabbling in design ideas. I don't remember exactly, but I think the back-of-the-head calculating had the average cost of the 6mR boats advertised on the class site around 60-80k €, and that includes the rather well-aged woodies.

I did, on the other hand, run across some mighty fine designs of a bit more heft in the R and Q classes. As you might expect, Alden's Vitesse and Hope I found particularly striking. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find much online about the many Herreshoff Qs. I may have to take a trip to Flathead Lake for a day sail...