Singlehanding

[Tim]

I appreciate the ackowledgement of my hard work. I sometimes feel like I don't get credit because I'm a woman, but I'm beginning to understand that it's because Charlie is the one that always does all the talking!  ;D

Laura, I know it may sound like just "us guys sticking together" but though Charlie does do all the talking ;), I have never seen him once discuss the work on Tehani without giving the credit to you. :)
Maybe that's just been the last couple of years but I have noticed.
Tim

[Tim]

For 125K, less what I paid for my boat, I could fix her up *really* nice, and cruise for 10 years with a higher budget than I have planned right now, without having to work along the way... ;D

Of course, my boat is 40 years old, not new.

If today I were to try and find - or have made - a hull constructed as well as this one is, it would cost a lot more than 125K.

As I crawl around and survey every inch of my Ariel, I am amazed how well constructed it is. I can't imagine a production boat built to those standards today.

[maxiSwede]

Of course, my boat is 40 years old, not new.

If today I were to try and find - or have made - a hull constructed as well as this one is, it would cost a lot more than 125K.

That's a very good point IMHO, and the reason I sail a 43 y o boat. Actually one of the first GRP sailing boats built in Scandinavia. The builder had tonnes of experience in building light aircraft in GRP though.

[Lynx]

OK, A new Dana 24 is about $ 125000.

Yes, I am careful about what I put out, most of the time anyway. I looked at a lot of blogs and reports about what it takes to make ready a boat for Blue Water Standards. One site reported $ 60000 to refurbish a 20 foot Flicka and he did do most the work himself. I have seen a lot of bad construction and things go wrong because of bad construction. I have met people who I had to train how to use a grease gun.

Do you really want to go out there and have to try to replace a chain plate in the middle of nowhere? Fixing my boat in out of the way places and waiting for parts and wondering what will break next is not my idea of fun. My thermostat went, I went to the Mercury marine store in Marsh Harbor. They did not carry it. Could(WOULD) not help me find one in the Bahamas. I went to NAPA and they had it. You should see the parts that have to be ordered or need to be ordered here in Abacos and we are only 190 miles away from the states.

You don't need to listen to me. Take a good look at it. Crossing the Atlantic, it is not uncommon to go through 3 storms. What does it take in a boat for you to feel safe? I am not talking about survival conditions. Just Storm conditions. 15 to 24 foot seas and winds below 50 knots. Relying on an EPIRB to get me back to land, the sharks have better odds.

Take a boat the size you want and go through the parts list. The Shards said that it was cheaper to buy a boat than to build one because of the increase cost of parts. IF you feel that you need to replace everything then it will be cheaper for you to buy a new boat,

Your choice. NOW if you want to go coastal, that is a different story. You do not need all that stuff. A smaller boat will do. You can go sooner and longer.

I always wanted to go blue water but It is quite a bit easier going coastal and in small boat. I have done over 4000 miles in 2 years in my boat. Over 150 days in it.

[Auspicious]

Sorry Laura, my sincere apologies... ;) I hope Charlie got you something nice for Valentine's Day. :)

Something pink, and girly, and not a power tool

Don't buy a woman anything that plugs in as a gift for Christmas, birthday, or Valentine's Day.

Take a good look at it. Crossing the Atlantic, it is not uncommon to go through 3 storms.

Hmm. One ... two ... three. Yep. Three. <grin>

[TJim]

I've said it before, I'll say it again...."If you want a top quality boat, you get an old 60's hull  and go to work."  We all know which ones to start with.  Seems like those are all well represented on this board!!!! Another point, restoring a good old boat is a nice way to stay busy without drowning in honey-does....

[AdriftAtSea]

Thanks Capn Smollett.  I celebrate both the holiday and her birthday in her memory every year... If I didn't I'd be dishonoring her memory and if she were here, she'd kick my butt for doing that. :)

Wow, Dan.  That must make Valentine's Day and all the hoopla about it tough.  I'm hoping at least it's a time to remember the times you had with a smile.

As for 1960's boats... I love the designs, particularly some of the Albergs, but I'm a multihull sailor at heart, and most of the ones from back then were home-build dogs... so I went with a new one. :)

[Captain Smollett]

Do you really want to go out there and have to try to replace a chain plate in the middle of nowhere? Fixing my boat in out of the way places and waiting for parts and wondering what will break next is not my idea of fun. My thermostat went, I went to the Mercury marine store in Marsh Harbor. They did not carry it. Could(WOULD) not help me find one in the Bahamas. I went to NAPA and they had it. You should see the parts that have to be ordered or need to be ordered here in Abacos and we are only 190 miles away from the states.

Huh?  Sorry, but I just don't agree with your reasoning here.  First problem: a chainplate and a thermostat for a particular model engine are two different things.  One is MUCH more likely to fail; one could carry a spare of either; yes, I'd rather be in some exotic port fixing a chainplate than here wondering about what tie to wear the next big Social Function.

Second problem: stuff can break on a new boat as well.  And often does.  Especially on brand new engines that have not been run-in yet.

Relying on an EPIRB to get me back to land, the sharks have better odds.

Sorry, but "HUH?" again.  Most of us on this site talk often about self-sufficiency.  This mean exactly NOT relying on 'stuff' like an EPIRB to 'get me back to to lank.' I'm not sure what that means anyway.  An EPIRB cannot get you back to land; by the time you use an EPIRB, the stuff has already gone south.

What we are talking about is using a boat that is good, sound and stong to begin with, not some modern plastic toy that should not go offshore in the first place.  I don't know where you get your $60,000 to make a blue water boat (was that Heather's Solo Sailor site??), but if you start with a strong platform, the preps you need to make are rigging and accomodation related.

Take a boat the size you want and go through the parts list. The Shards said that it was cheaper to buy a boat than to build one because of the increase cost of parts. IF you feel that you need to replace everything then it will be cheaper for you to buy a new boat,

I don't know who the Shards are, but I disagree with this statement on it's face.  It will ALMOST NEVER be cheaper to buy a new boat, if you buy the right boat.

Take that $125,000 new Dana you mentioned.  Let's say you are correct and it takes $60,000 to turn ANY boat into a blue water cruiser.  Let's say I buy a Bristol 27 in good shape for $9,000.  Using your numbers, I've spent $69,000, or just a touch over HALF on the new boat (*).  How is it cheaper to buy new?

(*) I don't care what anybody says, a production boat from the factory will take some mods to make her blue water capable.  So, should we add your $60,000 to the sticker price of the Dana, and use $180,000 as a better "real" working number?

Your choice. NOW if you want to go coastal, that is a different story. You do not need all that stuff. A smaller boat will do. You can go sooner and longer.

I will gladly take my Alberg anywhere in the world I want to go.  I have figured out the projected costs of making this boat safe for any waters of the world - a project list, if you will. My project list right now stands at less than $10,000 (and some of that includes routine maintenance that's I'd have to do on a brand new boat as well).  With what I paid for the hull, I will have less than $20,000 in her and she will go anywhere.  ANYWHERE.

Even if I went super lavish and accounting for "unexpected" expenditures, I doubt I will ever get to the $40,000 mark for the first refit - that's hull and refitting.

I always wanted to go blue water but It is quite a bit easier going coastal and in small boat. I have done over 4000 miles in 2 years in my boat. Over 150 days in it.

Is it easier coastal cruising than prepping a boat for blue water?  There we can agree.  That's why we are spreading out that $10,000 refit cost over a couple of years while we coastal cruise. 

So, I'm spreading the $10,000 refit over about three or four years.  Let's say four.  That's about $2,500 per year, or roughly $60 per month if I took out a four year loan.  That's less than I pay for Internet access.  At the end of this four year refit, my boat is MINE, with no debt overhead.

In contrast, to get a $125,000 boat, I'd have to take out a loan more akin to a 30 year mortgage, and my payments would STILL be more like $600/month.

How does that make economic sense again?  Maybe the Shards could be invited to join this site and offer their perspective and reasoning.

[Lynx]

The $ 60g's is from a Flicka that was refurbished in Galveston Tx.

Some of your points are well taken. IF you are qualified to make the repairs. I spent more than $ 3500 in electronics alone and I do not have an SSB. You can get by cheeper as you mentioned. And some other boats are in better condition than others. The Chards are from Canada and do a a show called "Distant Shores" Not shown much in the USA. Built their  Blue Water boat in Canada. They are in the BVI now and do seminars during the winter in Canada. I will invite them to this forum but it is doubtful if they will do much.
Here is their web site - http://www.distantshores.ca/

If you have faith in your boat, GREAT. I hope that you do well. I have seen too many who's boats cannot move when I can.

When someone jumps into a project like yours, they should know what they are getting into. Far to many have cost overruns that are unexpected.

[Bill NH]

Fixing my boat in out of the way places ... is not my idea of fun.

You know, this is a part of what cruising to out of the way places is about.  It's something that you deal with, you go with it and enjoy where you are.  I once chose to sit in Grand Cayman waiting for a new mainstay to be flown down from the states (it was 1.25 inch wire, not readily available locally)...  we ended up having a great stay and got to watch Tom Cruise filming the John Grisham movie "The Firm".  Some of our crew even ended up in the movie! 

No matter how new your boat is, stuff happens and things will need fixing and maintaining.  Sure, everything you do beforehand helps reduce the stuff you'll have to deal with later; I'm not being fatalistic here.  But it's a fact of going to sea that ships need constant care and repair.  It's part of the game, and seeing boatwork and repairs as obstacles will definitely reduce one's enjoyment of the voyage.

As an aside, IMHO it seems that half the broken gear that people sit waiting for parts for are things that they could do without but have been convinced by others (Cruising World, West Marine, etc) that they need...   but that's a whole 'nuther topic!

[Captain Smollett]

I have seen too many who's boats cannot move when I can.

If the wind is blowing above ~3kts, my boat will move.  Maybe not fast, but I don't care about that.  I'm in it for the journey.  Ghosting along under sail is still sailing.

[AdriftAtSea]

Bill-

What boat were you on that required a 1.25" mainstay??  Certainly not anything that would qualify as a small boat. :)

Capn Smollett's right... the journey is probably the bigger part of it for most sailfar-type sailors.  Ghosting along in 5 knots of wind is always a great way to spend the afternoon, although I prefer 15-20 knots of wind since it's a lot more interesting. :)

[CapnK]

I've got a couple of the Chards videos, they're good.

However, a thing to keep in mind about their statement: they had their boat built of aluminum. That ain't a cheap thing to do, no matter how you look at it. :)

Other than that, the thing I'll offer to this discussion is that by buying a boat which is basically just an older hull and spar and then refitting, you will have a new boat by the time you're done, with the exception of the hull/spar. It's just a more time consuming process. Based on what you value your time at, it could well have cost you as much as, or more than, a new boat.

To me, even if it does, I will have the satisfaction of knowing exactly how everything is put together, so that I know it was done right, and if it should fail, especially 'out there' in foreign waters or ports, also have the knowledge of just what it will take to fix it.

I don't think either way of doing things is right or wrong, just different. :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Of course, knowing exactly how something is put together might just save your life one day.  In Alvah Simon's North To the Night, he talks about building a bracket, which he later has to fix while basically blind... and if he hadn't built it himself... he probably would have been screwed. :)

[Captain Smollett]

I took a look at the Distant Shores web site.  42 ft boat for a couple, so not really in the "sailfar spirit."  Their approach seems more of the "mainstream" gottahaves than the view many of us small boaters seem to have.

One thing I did find interesting and relevant to this discussion.  On the "weight calculations" page, there is a brief equipment list (my own PERSONAL views added just for commentary - like Kurt said, there's no right or wrong here):

    *  Additional batteries for main house bank

The number of batts you need is directly related to the quanity of electricity you will consume (and charging capacity/interval).  I have chosen to limit the bank size and charging requirements by going fairly spartan with my electrical gadgets.  Since both gadgets and batteries cost money (and time to maintain), my way is less expensive (if more like camping than "yachting").

    * Yamaha outboard 8hp
    * Mastervolt 3kw genset

See above comment on 'additional batteries.'  I have no need for a genset on board.  Nor do I even want one.

    * Watermaker

I don't feel a need for this, with the POSSIBLE exception of a hand operated one for dire emergencies.

    * Scuba compressor

Wouldn't carry one of these on my boat; that seems somewhat like a luxury to me, but if I had the room and storage available (I don't), why not?

    * 2 scuba tanks - 28kg

Kool!!

    * Avon dinghy
    * Washing machine

Pure hedonism.   ;D ;D  Bucket on the foredeck or stirred with the clean end of a boat hook works for me.  Also, handwashing clothes makes me want to carry less clothes, helping solve the always present "where do I store it" issue.

    * Additional Chain
    * Radar Arch

My boat won't have radar; not sure why an arch is needed (mast mounted radar seems to work okay).

So, as I've stated before, part of what is cool about boats is that no two are alike, and different sailors will solve the same set of problems in different ways.  I don't begrudge anyone making these decisions the way they wish on their boat.

But what does rankle my feathers just a little bit is the (sometimes subliminal) presentation that "this is what you HAVE to have...."  Too many of us on both sides of the small-big fence get a little evangelical about what it takes to cruise in a sailboat.  I choose a smaller, less expensive (but for me at least, more spiritually rewarding) approach that would look like anything but fun to many other folks.

So, with their assertion that it takes $60,000 outfit ANY boat I disagree.  That's the approach they took - it is what works for them.  But it is far, far from an absolute.

[skylark]

The best way to get a low cost cruising sailboat is to buy one from someone who lovingly maintained and put together a cruising sailboat but realized that they can't or don't want to go cruising.

You see these kind of boats for sale quite often.  I sometimes think about selling my boat and just having the money ready for when I can retire.  Then wait for a good deal in an area I want to sail in and pounce at the right time.

It helps if you have a minimalist sailing point of view and know what is necessary and what is fluff. 

[TJim]

Hopefully get it on the right thread this time!!!!

Ahhh,,those lessons learned the hard way!!!!

[Bill NH]

Bill-

What boat were you on that required a 1.25" mainstay??  Certainly not anything that would qualify as a small boat. :)

In the early 90s I sailed as Captain of the SSV Westward, a 125' steel staysail schooner doing college sail training and marine education voyages.  It was certainly not a small boat!

The mainstay was actually a DOUBLED 1.25" wire, beginning at the base of the foremast, up around the main top and back again.  We were returning from Cartagena to Miami and discovered some alarming issues with the wire, enough that I diverted to Grand Cayman...

I've attached a pic of Westward below...  she was a joy to sail!

[Bill NH]

Funny that a thread on "Singlehanding" should stray to the point that I posted the last pic...   ;)

[AdriftAtSea]

BillNH-

Pretty boat...definitely not a single-hander's boat or a sailfar boat though.