Am I crazy?

[Cpt2Be]

I have been anchoring in Fl for years and not had a problem. There is several good guides for the different coast and Keys. Work in Key West if light and hard to find. However if you want a cheep place to stay and waite out the storms on several good anchors try Marathon, Boot Key Harbor.

I suggest that you get some of the cruising guides for Fl West coast, East coast and Keys.

In the Bahamas I found anchor Holding a problem and quite a few others  as well during the fronts that came through. I stayed in the Abacos, Nothern Bahamas. Working in the  Bahamas is very tough to get permits.

On anchoring in FL, see that's where I've read some very conflicting information. Can you recommend the cruising guides I should check out? I'll search for some but if you could point me in the right direction.

Reading LooseMoose's boatbits and reading elsewhere I have read a LOT about dragging anchor and am reading a lot on anchoring in general so it's something I am concerned about and near the top of our list of things to be on top of. It's likely we will trial by error on this one since it does save us a lot of cash and though we have no pre determined opinion on marinas it's just not what were looking for in the direction of how we want to live regardless of money.

Permits in Bahamas and Caribbean are being arranged by her school placement program which is so nice that we aren't messing with doing that and have time to do everything else. If everything does work out its unlikely we wil even be returning to FL.

[CharlieJ]

Reading LooseMoose's boatbits and reading elsewhere I have read a LOT about dragging anchor and am reading a lot on anchoring in general so it's something I am concerned about and near the top of our list of things to be on top of.

Anchoring is a large subject and something you can really only learn by doing.

Just a few  tips from someone who anchored out every night for a year on his last boat and MOST nights over a two year cruise up and down the whole east coast and Keys.  And anchors the current boat most of the time. In fact, Laura is out single hand on the boat now and has 3 squalls hit her with winds of over 45 in the last 5 days, with zero anchor problems.In one anchorage she experienced 4 foot waves for about an hour- the boat just sat there- rough ride, but it didn't move. In 14 days out now, she's been tied to a dock one night, and that was because the harbor master is a friend and promised us a free night ;)


SO- the tips

Carry two or three different style of anchors. If one won't work, another will. For example we carry a Bruce on the bow, and a folding Northill, plus a Hi Tensile Danforth in lockers

Get  chain- lots of it. Tehani carries 75feet on the main anchor, backed with 200 feet of nylon. Then there's another 100 feet aboard in several sections, that can be shackled together as needed. And several other nylon rodes

The books will recommend certain size anchors for the boat size you are on- use them as a GUIDE, but go up at least  one and preferably two sizes when you buy. For example, on Tehani the "book" calls for a 16 pound Bruce- we use a 22 pounder.

I have a friend in Florida who will tell you that the correct anchor is one that is 5  pounds lighter than the heaviest you can haul aboard ;D He jokes, but that isn't too far from the truth. Here's one place where size really does matter.

Then practice til it becomes second nature to set them, including setting a Bahama Moor. In cruising the east coast, from Annapolis to Key West, I found many times when I used that Bahama Moor.

Oh and practice with BOTH of you taking turns setting and retrieving  anchors. Work up a set of hand signals so you don't have to yell back and forth.

[Lynx]

Anchor - lots of religon on that one. I have an 18 pound super Max. Grabs like mad in the Fl mud and will reset fast in the mud. You are starting out right with due respect for anchoring. I agree that the primary anchor for a voyaging boat should be your best storm anchor. You have to delpoy it, set it and retrive it. At least 25 feet of 3/8 BB highest Galvanized chain.

Cruising guides - check out BlueWater books in Fl. they can send you a referance book list for any cruising area. Books I recommend Gunkholer's guide to Fl West Coast. Cruising guide to the Fl Keys 500+ pages. A good GPS map. I have the Garmin 440.  I have not seen a bad guide. Some are more usable to your needs than others. Marinas vers anchoring out. Nothing is 95% uptodate.

Nothing beats exerience unless you are totaly untrained.

[Auspicious]

... and fit a deck-wash pump. You'll be very glad you have it anytime you are anchored in mud.

Money invested in good anchor gear pays you back every time you stay OUT of a marina.

[CharlieJ]

 ;D ;D

Here's the deck wash pump on Tehani. A 25 foot sailboat just doesn't have the capacity for more

;D ;D

Solar shower available from Duckworks

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/shower/index.htm



And here's the other one- a canvas bucket Laura made based on descriptions in one of Lin and Larry Pardeys books.

[Cpt2Be]

I love it! I have so much to read and am so excited each time I get a response. I have looked into a few things in the past day and it is now likely I will take the advanced class (by the way they are US Sailing courses here in Chicago) as it covers a lot of stuff and really not all that expensive plus I get my CG Certified status and have to imagine that lowers liability premiums and more course time isn't a bad thing.

Between the basic I took ($460) and the advanced ($490) it will pay off. The basic was VERY basic but I did single hand a J22 at the end of the course so that was more than I was able to do before. The advanced course has anchoring & navigation as part of the curriculum so there we go.

I have already learned quite a bit to the credit of all you friendly folks and thank you all for that.

I'm pretty confident we will be just fine but we can not wait to actually get out there and do this and again with all your advice and enthusiasm to educate us on this I feel we've found a community that I hope to be able to come to and offer our advice to the next people in line.

Greg

[Auspicious]

1. How long are we actually going to be in the marina is becoming to us more of a how much do we need to stay in a marina

I lived aboard in a marina, with a suit-and-tie job ashore, for a couple of years. I anchored out for quite a while when I was working more casually. Now I'm back in a marina, back in a suit-and-tie.

Electrical power and water are the two biggest issues (oh - and keeping nice clothes clean and dry) different between in and out. Look at your expenses and decide what makes sense for you.

3. The need to have a place to put her on the hard for maintenance or hurricane season

Hmm. Not sure what you have in mind. In three years living aboard I have hauled twice - once for four days for a bottom job and once to haul and hold for zincs and a power wash.

I know some people haul for hurricanes, but that wouldn't be (and isn't) my choice. Good ground tackle and an early move to a pre-selected carefully chosen hurricane hole work for me. YMMV

Any advice?

There is a lot of advice out in the world. Generally it is worth what you pay for it. A huge amount of it comes from people with no practical experience or academic basis who just spout out what they have heard and read. Use your head and consider whether what you hear makes sense.

[Cpt2Be]

A dream differed.....

Well we just got a call from Adina's placement department from her school and , well it wasn't good news at all.

Neither the Bahamas or Caribbean are going to be viable for her occupation at all. Work permit application fees are HUGE with no guarantee she will be approved and easily not going to happen in a year. As a Massage Therapist her job is considered to be "easily" filled by a national . Forget they aren't required to have education in Massage Therapy or license or insurance even though you can do irreparable harm in practicing massage poorly and with no
formal education it's like if you saw a chiropractor that didn't know what they are doing. Mind you her occupation is Therapy not "feel good" massage.

So I guess we are now dead in the water so to speak. Guess we are going to have to work for quite a few more years to make enough to do it without working. We are both quite depressed.  :'(

Thanks for all your advice

Greg

[Cpt2Be]

I should clarify. They are required to be licensed but it is still an occupation they consider to be fillable by a national.

[CharlieJ]

Let me let a small ray of sunshine in. Of course this was some years ago, but my ex, my teen aged son and I cruised for 2 years on a total of 8500 bucks. We were  going through a 5th of booze every week, and both of us smoked. We went from Jax, Florida to Annapolis, Maryland, and back out to the Tortugas during that time.

I will admit the boat was new and needed little or no maintenance, but still-

This was in the early 80s, so I'm sure costs are higher.But the fact remains- it takes pretty much what you have.I figure we can cruise pretty well on about 700 or 800 bucks per month and of course, some months won't cost a dime. Hey - we live on my social security check here on land- less than 1200 per month. and still save money each month.

An example- one month from Key West out to the Dry Tortugas, via the Marqessas and return to Key West- outgo? $.50 cents- for postcards in Fort Jefferson.

Stay out of marinas, stay out of restaurants except as treats. Anchor out, walk to places. Buy clothes at Goodwilll or thrift shops. You'd be amazed at how little money it actually takes if you are aware of what you are spending and are careful.

Just don't give up because jobs aren't readily available someplace.

[LooseMoose]

We have been doing this living on a boat and working as we do it gig since the late 80's and for what it's worth...

Folks willing to work and at least a bit flexible always seem to be able to find work along the way.

Small countries are always problematic in terms of getting work permits and suchlike. Not that I am suggesting that people work in less than a legal manner but work is out there if you look and in most cases it will be legal.

Over thelast couple of years we have noticed a cuple of cruising boats with a massage therapist onboard who has seemed to do very well just working within the cruising fleet. Others such as hair cutters, computer geeks and even the odd bat trade folks seem to do pretty well just getting on the local cruisers net and mentioning that their skills were available.

Places like Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are part of the USA and you can work... Al lot of curiser will take a year off and work in St Thomas and save up for a couple of years cruising. When we arrived before our first day was over my wife and I had been offered a half dozen full time jobs...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[Cpt2Be]

CharlieJ & Loose Moose-

CahrlieJ-We figured about the same $800/month and after boat purchase we would be fine for about two years barring unforeseen repairs so yours is an inspiring detail of how little it can cost. We are VERY simple people with only the need for substance in our life. Done with possessions altogether so simplifying is not a problem. We just need to have income to keep going after we spend our kitty. I still believe it's possible but given how hard the economy has hit we may end up burning through our bank and have to return to the mundane life before we planned and want to be sure employment is accessible were we end up (no real guarantee on land either so I completely understand that point of view)

LooseMoose-I have absolutely no idea why I forgot about Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.  :o
Adina has given thought to catering to the cruising market but not to sure how much that would work out. Myself, I'm a laid off IT but I am a jack of all trades and labor is not beneath me. I'd take anything.

We are sitting here chatting while I type and both of your posts have definitely gone a long way to convince both of us to not give up. If it doesn't work out oh well and we're willing to give it a try. The worst that happens is we end up having to dock the boat on a long term lease work ashore and try again.

Thax Guys,

Greg & Adina Clark

P.S. I'll find my photobucket login sometime tonight and post a few pics of us.

[Cpt2Be]

Never mind the Spaghetti 'o stain, it doesn't seem to bother me  ;D

[CharlieJ]

Nice looking gal- who's the guy ;D

Ok- here we are.A TAD older than you mind you. Well, me any way- Laura is forever young

[Lynx]

See if you both can take a leave of abance for a few months and to the Erie Canal or Something else. You do not need much of a boat for this and you can get food every other day easily.

Or you can do the Fl Loop - 750 miles - during the winter.  Do it when your young.

You will be supprised how small of boat you really need.

[Captain Smollett]

1. How long are we actually going to be in the marina is becoming to us more of a how much do we need to stay in a marina

I lived aboard in a marina, with a suit-and-tie job ashore, for a couple of years. I anchored out for quite a while when I was working more casually. Now I'm back in a marina, back in a suit-and-tie.

Electrical power and water are the two biggest issues (oh - and keeping nice clothes clean and dry) different between in and out. Look at your expenses and decide what makes sense for you.

I'd like to weigh-in on the anchor-out vs marina question and expand on what Dave has said here.  My comments below must be tempered with the question of how much a slip costs where you are going be working.

(1) In our situation, we have one working parent, and one parent with the two children.  Anchoring out is not feasible.  If the working parent takes the dink ashore, that would either (a) leave the other three aboard ALL the time (and getting off the boat is paramount for sanity's sake), (b) require two dinks (adding $$ and 'stuff') or (c) require the three aboard to 'shuttle' the one who is working ashore ashore (my wife works a job that requires her to be on-call, so this shuttling could be at odd hours of the night and sometimes in emergencies).

This simple issue was a MAJOR driving force in our deciding to live aboard at a marina.

(2) What Dave mentioned about clothing is very important in certain jobs.  My wife does not keep her work clothes on the boat (it's a matter of room/storage as well as keeping the clothes neat and professional looking).  It COULD be done, but having the extra 'storage' in her car helps tremendously.  If we were actively "out cruising," the clothes in her car would not be needed.  The point is that this dimension is easier to manage from a slip than it is from anchor.

(3) We are only paying a couple of hundred dollars per month for a slip.  Included in that is a range of services that are hard to put a price on.  For example, we get ice, showers, access to the bathrooms, the clubhouse (with tv...we have no actual tv aboard the boat), discount at the adjacent motel (for us if we want or for family on a visit), holding tank pump-out and water is included (not metered).  We have electric, but it is metered.  We have coin laundry, but it is 30% or more cheaper than the local laundromats.

So, we could "save" a few hun a month by anchoring out.  But, we'd have to (a) buy ice every day (in the summer at least), (b) pay 30% or more higher per month to do laundry, (c) pay for pump-outs at a local marina (I'd guess 2-3 times per month if we were on anchor and using the head/tank all or most of the time) and loose the intangible benefits of just being able to step off the boat to say let the children watch an hour of "Sponge Bob" or play baseball.  In the end, without factoring the intangibles, I guess we are net out about $100 per month for what the hard costs save us, and that seems like a mighty small price for those intangibles and the comfort of being able to just step off the boat and go for a walk.

(note too that our boat is a small boat without 'shower,' fridge and a number of other amenities...we have no genset for example...)

I would seriously look at a marina if you are putting down some temporary roots in one location for the purpose of working/making money.  Cruising, on the go, I'd NEVER recommend this...but it may just be worth the money depending on what slips cost where you are working.  That's my big caveat...we are paying $6 a ft per month (or thereabouts) which is low compared to some places.

And that is the BIG kicker...the real point of this diatribe.  There's no pat answer...it depends on a LOT of things.

On Edit:

PS: We kept our boat at anchor for a year and a half, but did not live aboard during that time.

[CharlieJ]

e

 My wife does not keep her work clothes on the boat (it's a matter of room/storage as well as keeping the clothes neat and professional looking).  It COULD be done, but having the extra 'storage' in her car helps tremendously.  If we were actively "out cruising," the clothes in her car would not be needed.  

It ain't a car my man- haven't you learned by now? Sailing people don't HAVE cars- they have MSU's.

Mobile Storage Units

;D ;D

[Auspicious]

I would seriously look at a marina if you are putting down some temporary roots in one location for the purpose of working/making money.  Cruising, on the go, I'd NEVER recommend this...but it may just be worth the money depending on what slips cost where you are working.  That's my big caveat...we are paying $6 a ft per month (or thereabouts) which is low compared to some places.

And that is the BIG kicker...the real point of this diatribe.  There's no pat answer...it depends on a LOT of things.

Completely agree.

It changes your outfit as well. For example, I don't have solar panels. If I were to make a personal commitment to anchoring out for more than a year or so I would buy and fit solar, the cost of which would put a big dent in the "savings" of eschewing (I love that word) marinas.

[TJim]

Good post Charlie, Now I just have to teach the boat, don't have electrical problems, don't have mechicanical problems, don't wear anything out, Dinghy motor, run forever....etc....TJ

[LooseMoose]

I don't think this is a marinas VS anchoring out arguement as both certainly have their place...

In the Caribbean affordable marinas are very few and far between and for most of us paying $45 a night to be tied up in close proximity to others and pointed in the wrong direction for our ventilation to work and supper high priced metered electric just does not mke sense(cents?)

My thoughts regarding anchoring were more about the theme of this forum which is "Sail Far" if you want to cruise and get away from the same old same anchoring has its advantages as you are not locked into one place, it is mostly free (though anchor charges are becoming more and more of a thorn in paradise) and so on. Anchoring is much more a part of the momentum factor than a marina nad momentum is key to successful cruising.

One of the great traps in the Go cruising game is the replacing the life you are trying to leave with a reasonable facsimile afloat of the one you are leaving. You can get a great deal in a marina if you do it long term and since you have to commit to a berth for three months, six...a year then the discussion gets into what dock box should I buy and what is a good car for a live-aboard boat guy.... Its easy to put down roots.

And I am not knocking the live-aboard folks or folks taking a year or two out of their cruising to build up the cruising kitty but it is important not to lose sight of your individual goals and factor them in.

Over the last year as part of a cruising DVD series we are making we have been interviewing a lot of cruisers and live-aboards about just how it all works for them, how they make a living afloat and how they can afford to cruise. Fact is what we thought would be a small part of one film has become three films as the mechanics of living afloat (not the sailing part) grew and took on a life of their own.

The one factor all of the successful cruisers had as part of their game plan was that they simply did it. Which sounds simplistic but really is not. To quote the Nike ad...Just do it!

Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/