Inverter/charger or inverter and charger

[unbusted67]

Hey Guys, I have been researching what to buy to charge my batteries and give me AC. I have been kind of befuddled. I came across the Xantrex HF1000 which, with the exception of being badly back ordered, meets my criteria: Small, simple to install ( doesn't require a shore power outlet or cable), and yes cheap. But when I asked about it on a different forum people criticized Xantrex's customer service and said that I should have a pure sine inverter not a modified.

So now I am thinking I should just get a separate inverter and charger. For an inverter I would like something small (no more than 400 watts) and efficient.

And for a charger, well I am not sure. We have a 225 Ah bank, will a 12 Amp charger work? What do you have in your boat? So far I know I would like something that can receive a regular Edison cable so that I don't have to go buy a shore power outlet and cable. I would also like something that is a permanently mounted so that when I go to resell the boat it doesn't look shabby. 3 stage charging would obviously be a bonus too.

What does everyone have in their boat?

[AdriftAtSea]

A few points. 

First, most equipment can run on a modified sine-wave inverter.  A pure sine wave inverter is better for certain type of equipment, but not usually necessary.

Second, Xantrex does have some customer service issues. 

Third, what size loads are you going to put on the inverter.  Most inverters are most efficient when working close to their rated load.  If you're going to be running a laptop, which is about 85-90 watts for most of them, using an inverter that is significantly large will be less efficient than if you ran an 100 watt inverter.

Fourth, a 12 Amp-charger is a bit undersized for your battery bank.  A 225 amp-hour battery bank, when discharged to 50% or so will generally accept 20-25% of the bank size in charging current or about 25 amps.  Using a charger smaller than this will greatly increase your charging times.

Using an inverter and separate charger would generally take up more room than using a combined unit.  However a combined unit becomes a single point of failure.

I would highly recommend installing a proper shore power setup if you plan on using this long term.  A proper shore power setup eliminates or reduces a lot of the risks, especially if it is properly setup with GFCI-type outlets.  It also gives you a much more secure connection to the shorepower 110 VAC line and allows you to permanently wire the charger or inverter/charger unit.

Hey Guys, I have been researching what to buy to charge my batteries and give me AC. I have been kind of befuddled. I came across the Xantrex HF1000 which, with the exception of being badly back ordered, meets my criteria: Small, simple to install ( doesn't require a shore power outlet or cable), and yes cheap. But when I asked about it on a different forum people criticized Xantrex's customer service and said that I should have a pure sine inverter not a modified.

So now I am thinking I should just get a separate inverter and charger. For an inverter I would like something small (no more than 400 watts) and efficient.

And for a charger, well I am not sure. We have a 225 Ah bank, will a 12 Amp charger work? What do you have in your boat? So far I know I would like something that can receive a regular Edison cable so that I don't have to go buy a shore power outlet and cable. I would also like something that is a permanently mounted so that when I go to resell the boat it doesn't look shabby. 3 stage charging would obviously be a bonus too.

What does everyone have in their boat?

[newt]

I went with a separate inverter/ charger. Now I think just a battery charger would have worked. You can buy those cheap little inverters for you computer or any small electronic gismos you may have. Xantrex is my inverter- no problems with it so far.

[unbusted67]

"First, most equipment can run on a modified sine-wave inverter.  A pure sine wave inverter is better for certain type of equipment, but not usually necessary."
What kind of equipment specifically are you talking about? Aren't they more efficient?

"Third, what size loads are you going to put on the inverter.  Most inverters are most efficient when working close to their rated load.  If you're going to be running a laptop, which is about 85-90 watts for most of them, using an inverter that is significantly large will be less efficient than if you ran an 100 watt inverter."

As some of you already may know I run a Toughbook that draws about 70 watts, I figure I will be charging cell phones, and batteries for screw guns etc. Ultimately I think 200 Watts would be more fitting but I notice no one makes a 200 watt Pure sine wave inverter....

"Fourth, a 12 Amp-charger is a bit undersized for your battery bank.  A 225 amp-hour battery bank, when discharged to 50% or so will generally accept 20-25% of the bank size in charging current or about 25 amps.  Using a charger smaller than this will greatly increase your charging times. "
Good to know thanks.

"I would highly recommend installing a proper shore power setup if you plan on using this long term.  A proper shore power setup eliminates or reduces a lot of the risks, especially if it is properly setup with GFCI-type outlets.  It also gives you a much more secure connection to the shorepower 110 VAC line and allows you to permanently wire the charger or inverter/charger unit."

I am becoming more resigned to installing one, it just seems like an unnecessary expense though. Then you have to buy a shore power cable and cut a big hole in your boat. It just seems a little gratuitous for what we are going for. What ever happened to KISS? Honestly I would rather do away with the devices that require the electricity than install more stuff that provides it.

Hey Newt. Did you go with the HF 1000 or some other Xantrex unit?

[AdriftAtSea]

If all you're looking to power is your toughbook and some cell phone chargers, get the 12 VDC versions of their power supplies instead of getting an inverter.  This will be more efficient than using an inverter.  If you go from DC to AC to DC again, you're going to have heat losses?just feel the inverter and the transformer wall wart for your laptop?they're warm aren't they?  That's because of the inefficiency of the inverter and transformer.

[unbusted67]

If all you're looking to power is your toughbook and some cell phone chargers, get the 12 VDC versions of their power supplies instead of getting an inverter.  This will be more efficient than using an inverter.  If you go from DC to AC to DC again, you're going to have heat losses?just feel the inverter and the transformer wall wart for your laptop?they're warm aren't they?  That's because of the inefficiency of the inverter and transformer.

I think we went through this extensively either on a different thread or different forum but unless you are going from a higher DC voltage to a lower one then that is not true. You actually have to go to AC and then back to DC even if you are using a DC to DC converter and they are about as inefficient as using a high quality inverter. Our laptop takes 19 volts. There is no way to get from 12 to 19 volts without first going to AC first.

Another draw back to this option is that the Lindh toughbook dc to dc power supplies run about $100. It just doesn't make sense.

[AdriftAtSea]

Actually, a friend of mine tested this and found that the DC-to-DC power supply is still far more efficient.  He used an ammeter to compare what the actual draw for the equipment on an inverter was and compared it to the amperage draw of the equipment on a DC-to-DC power supply.

I think we went through this extensively either on a different thread or different forum but unless you are going from a higher DC voltage to a lower one then that is not true. You actually have to go to AC and then back to DC even if you are using a DC to DC converter and they are about as inefficient as using a high quality inverter. Our laptop takes 19 volts. There is no way to get from 12 to 19 volts without first going to AC first.

Another draw back to this option is that the Lindh toughbook dc to dc power supplies run about $100. It just doesn't make sense.

[CapnK]

Ben - Not sure what kind of engine you have for your boat, but if it is gas powered, then have you considered something like the Yamaha EF1000is or the Honda EU1000iA.

They are really quiet - 47-60dBa (for comparison to common noises, look halfway down this page), and sippy on the fuel, have A/C and 12v DC outlets, etc etc...

Making a small, open topped folding box - maybe of wire and fabric with foam insulation, to set it in, out in the cockpit - would help further to keep any noise down for you and the 'neighbors'.

Just a thought. :)

[unbusted67]

I don't really have the power needs to warrant getting a generator. That is interesting about the inverter vs dc to dc brick. I have had this same exact discussion on a different forum and had people rail against using a dc to dc power supply. That was even my initial plan.

I will think about that but can we talk about chargers for a minute? Does anyone own one of these? http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/232564/377%20710%201646/712//Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/20/0?N=377 710 1646&Ne=712&Ntt=&Ntx=mode matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&Nr=AND(Record Type:PRODUCT,Store:WESTMARINE)&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=683

I am thinking of getting the 30 amp model.

[AdriftAtSea]

I'm not a big fan of the WM brand battery chargers.  Seen too many of them fail.  I'd recommend getting an Iota-brand charger instead.  They're really the best value for the buck and very reliable.  Bill Trayfors, who is fairly well known on several sailing fora is a big fan of them, among others.

[unbusted67]

I know someone who uses something like that for day/weekend sails to run the laptop and such, different brand one of these Eliminator things I'm not sure what size
http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_detail.jsp;jsessionid=LZCWXYBTjHsVTg4bm81sLgnYb8l5hhncY3xXCXjGshHjzgdnhShh!354990349?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443271701&bmUID=1268335158669

He seemed to like it and they're pretty light for the juice they'll store

That is not really the same thing that I am looking at. The WM item is just a charger.

The Iota stuff looks good but I would like the option to equalize. I also have a Port Supply card so that should help drive the price down more.

[Tim]

I don't really have the power needs to warrant getting a generator. That is interesting about the inverter vs dc to dc brick. I have had this same exact discussion on a different forum and had people rail against using a dc to dc power supply. That was even my initial plan.

I will think about that but can we talk about chargers for a minute? Does anyone own one of these? http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/232564/377%20710%201646/712//Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/20/0?N=377 710 1646&Ne=712&Ntt=&Ntx=mode matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&Nr=AND(Record Type:PRODUCT,Store:WESTMARINE)&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=683

I am thinking of getting the 30 amp model.

That might work if you were going to be taking the battery out of the boat to charge it all the time. They are not made for the marine environment nor to be permanently mounted.

For something on the inexpensive side I have used both of these with satisfactory results.



http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|985|316471&id=343808



http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|985|316472&id=185454

[Mr. Fixit]

The itoa charger/converter does equalize batteries--the ones with the iq4 installed check every 7 days and will equalize if needed. The iota chargers/converters without iq4 will equalize if a small jumper wire is installed manually increasing the charge from13.6 to 14.2 Volts  this voltage will remain untill the jumper is removed.

[AdriftAtSea]

Yeah, but if anything happens to the boat power, you lose the automatic "UPS" feature of having the battery in and will lose all your work.

Taking the battery out of your laptop also helps cut the heat draw dramatically

[unbusted67]

The itoa charger/converter does equalize batteries--the ones with the iq4 installed check every 7 days and will equalize if needed. The iota chargers/converters without iq4 will equalize if a small jumper wire is installed manually increasing the charge from13.6 to 14.2 Volts  this voltage will remain untill the jumper is removed.

14.2 isn't equalizing though

[Mr. Fixit]

Unbusted67-I may be wrong on the 14.2 volts for equalization, however if you go to www.iotaengineering.com, click on iq smart charger, read para. Weekly Equalization for Longer Battery Life.Maybe your meaning of "equalization" and Iota's are different, I do not know. Trying to get a consensus on the necessity and frequency of equalization can be very frustrating.One thing that almost everybody agrees on is the importance of a 3 stage charging system.Every thing is relative--if i had 1 or 2 batteries I do not know if i would spend the money for a 3 stage charger. I have 4 and the replacement cost justifies a 3 stage charger. I am very happy with my Iota,would another brand be just as good,probably. If down the road my hydrometer reading indicates a problem, I have several ways I can introduce enough voltage ---solar or converter brick. In the mean time I will be content to let my Iota do its weekly equalization. I have said all I want to on this subject--lets switch to religion or politics !!!!

[unbusted67]

Unbusted67-I may be wrong on the 14.2 volts for equalization, however if you go to www.iotaengineering.com, click on iq smart charger, read para. Weekly Equalization for Longer Battery Life.Maybe your meaning of "equalization" and Iota's are different, I do not know. Trying to get a consensus on the necessity and frequency of equalization can be very frustrating.One thing that almost everybody agrees on is the importance of a 3 stage charging system.Every thing is relative--if i had 1 or 2 batteries I do not know if i would spend the money for a 3 stage charger. I have 4 and the replacement cost justifies a 3 stage charger. I am very happy with my Iota,would another brand be just as good,probably. If down the road my hydrometer reading indicates a problem, I have several ways I can introduce enough voltage ---solar or converter brick. In the mean time I will be content to let my Iota do its weekly equalization. I have said all I want to on this subject--lets switch to religion or politics !!!!

Ahmen.

I might be wrong about the 14.2 thing but for some reason I thought it was a higher voltage. I only have two batteries in my boat so I am just want to go for the simplest thing.

[unbusted67]

Are the Iota chargers marine rated?

I'm starting to feel like I have backed myself into a corner with my battery bank choice. I have 2 GC2s - which are 6 volts - run in series making one big 225 AH bank.

Most cheaper marine chargers seem to be designed to charge 2 or three smaller 12 volt batteries at a time - like that Pro Sport model. There are plenty of chargers that output 30 amps but just in 3 groups of 10 amps.

It just seems like there aren't a lot of cheaper, 3 stage, single bank, 30 amp marine grade chargers out there.

I feel l we won't be draining this bank that much, we don't really have any big draw items. Do you think we could get by with something a little less hefty that 30 amps?

[tomwatt]

I think it also depends a little bit on the battery type... gel cel batteries vs. agm vs. wet plate batteries have some susceptibility to problems depending on voltage (I forget now which one is which, but at least one of those type is sensitive to higher voltage, while another requires it, or something like that).