Thoughts wanted on sailboat models

[montanasailors]

Hello all and thanks for any thoughts you may have for us.

My husband and I are planning on buying a boat that will allow us to sail in many Montana lakes as well as an occasional month long excursion to the Bellingham / San Juan area for liveaboards and cruising (probably 1 mnth a year for 2 yrs).  Our ultimate plan is to hone our sailing skills for a few years with this boat, then move up to something bigger for a longer 6 month - 1 year ocean trip (location to be determined) in 2-3 years.

For this immediate boat to sail in MT and occasionally the San Juans, we forsee needing the following characteristics:   
  *  Trailerable and light enough to be pulled by a 4 cylinder 2009 Tacoma (max towing weight 3500 lbs, but we'd rather be around 2,000-3,000 lbs)
  *   Comfortable berths for 2 with the ability to have 2 additional guests sleeping aboard occasionally, with a cockpit tent an option
  *   Stove, preferably 2 burner
  *   Porta-potti,
  *   More concerned with stability vs speed
  *   Would prefer swing or retractable keel/centerboard/daggerboard vs water ballast
  *   Well constructed for both lake sailing and near coastal (San Juans)
  *   Relatively inexpensive (<$4000 with trailer/motor).  We are handy and capable of working on cosmetics as long as the boat is sound
  *   Having a setup that can be fairly easily single-handled would be preferred.

    I have a sailing background, but my husband is a beginner. Are there any other major considerations anyone think we need to consider? (I'm sure there are tons.)

Right now we're considering the West Wight Potter 19 as our first choice. We also love the Pacific Seacraft Flicka, but they, of course are beyond the budget at this point. The following boats have also been recommended by an experienced friend: Catalina 25, older Hunters, O'Days, and Cals. Any thoughts on these or any others? Any other glaring details we are overlooking? Any and all thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks so much in advance.

[JWalker]

I have a friend who went all over south florida in a venture 23. its a trailerable cutter rig, with a pop top. I believe price and weight fit your budget.

He currently owns a storfidra and a flicka....and still talks highly of the venture.

[Captain Smollett]

I think i would start by making a BIG list of all the boats you can find that fit your weight requirement first.  I'd put the price tag low on the culling scale, since you can find deals on just about any boat once you know what you are looking for.

So, start with the list of boats towable with your tow vehicle.

Some ideas to get started and in addition to the Potter 19 (and others already mentioned):

Sanibel 18 and ComPac 19/2

Newport 17 That one is sold, but you can see the boat/specs.

Or...haha, take the easy way and go to the Sail Calculator and do a search for all boats within a given displacement,  Here are the results I got for displacements between 1000 and 2200 lbs:

Alacrity 19, Displacement=1500
Alerion Express 20, Displacement=1900
Aquarius 21, Displacement=1900
Balboa 20, Displacement=1700
Bandholm 24, Displacement=2000
Bisso Two20, Displacement=1100
Bluenose Sloop, Displacement=2050
Blume 23, Displacement=1909
Bolger Birdwatcher, Displacement=1436
Bolger Fast Motorsailer, Displacement=1802
Bray 7.5m, Displacement=1941
Buzzards Bay 14, Displacement=2000
Cal 20, Displacement=1950
Cal 21, Displacement=1114
Cape Cod Bullseye, Displacement=1350
Cape Cutter 19, Displacement=1918
Cape Dory Typhoon Daysailer, Displacement=1900
Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender, Displacement=2000
Capri 16, Displacement=1350
Capri 23.5, Displacement=1755
Catalina 16, Displacement=1350
Catalina 18, Displacement=1500
Challenger Micro, Displacement=1212.53
Chebacco, Displacement=1784
Clipper 23 SK, Displacement=2018
Clipper Marine, Displacement=1090
Clipper Marine 21, Displacement=1050
Com-Pac 16, Displacement=1100
Com-Pac 16/III, Displacement=1100
Com-Pac 19/3, Displacement=2000
Com-Pac Sun Cat, Displacement=1500
Com-Pac Sun Cat Daysailer, Displacement=1350
Commodore 17, Displacement=1216
Condor 20, Displacement=1873.93
Corribee MK2, Displacement=2000
Corsair 24 Mk 2, Displacement=1690
Corsaire, Displacement=1216
Cygnus 20 - Ballasted Centerboard, Displacement=1075
Devon Cruiser, Displacement=1320
Devon Longboat, Displacement=1210
Dix TLC19, Displacement=1918
Drascombe Drifter, Displacement=2000
Edel 2, Displacement=1278.67
Edel 600, Displacement=1653.45
Ensenada 20, Displacement=1600
Etap 20, Displacement=1499.13
Evans 28/30, Displacement=2027
Flying Tiger 7.5, Displacement=2150
Freedom 21 - Main Only, Displacement=1800
Freedom 21 - With Staysail, Displacement=1800
Glen L -Tango, Displacement=1750
Glen-L Minuet, Displacement=1124
Glen-L19, Displacement=1900
Gloucester 20, Displacement=1600
Governors Cup 21, Displacement=1670
Harbor 20, Displacement=1897
Holder 20, Displacement=1160
Hunter 19, Displacement=1500
Hunter 210, Displacement=1500
Hunter 212, Displacement=1800
Hunter 216, Displacement=1350
Hunter 23.5, Displacement=1362
Hunter Medina, Displacement=1890
Ideal 18, Displacement=1240
International Marine Sanibel 18, Displacement=1400
Islander 21, Displacement=1950
J/22, Displacement=1790
Jeanneau Sun Fast 20, Displacement=1719.59
Jeanneau Sunway 21, Displacement=1918
Laser SB3, Displacement=1309
Liberty 19, Displacement=1142
Lindenberg 22, Displacement=1800
Luger Southwind, Displacement=1850
MFG19, Displacement=1600
MacGregor 19, Displacement=2020
MacGregor 21, Displacement=1175
MacGregor 22, Displacement=1800
MacGregor 25, Displacement=2100
Marshall Sandpiper, Displacement=1050
Martin 243, Displacement=1380
Matt Layden Paradox, Displacement=1410
Melges 24, Displacement=1783
Merit 22, Displacement=2000
Meteor (Van De Stadt), Displacement=1700
Micro, Displacement=1714
Mirage 5.5, Displacement=1200
Montego 19, Displacement=2150
Montgomery 17, Displacement=1600
Moore 24, Displacement=2050
Norwalk Islands Sharpie 18, Displacement=1813
O'Day Daysailer, Displacement=1265
ODay 192, Displacement=1400
ODay 20, Displacement=1600
ODay Mariner C/b, Displacement=1305
ODay Mariner Keel, Displacement=1435
Paradox, Displacement=1410.94
Precision 18, Displacement=1100
Precision 21, Displacement=1875
Ranger 20, Displacement=1550
Ranger 22, Displacement=2172
Ranger Fun 23, Displacement=1875
Renken 18, Displacement=1220
Rhodes 19, Displacement=1355
Rocket 22, Displacement=1860
SIGNET 20, Displacement=2146
SR Max/21, Displacement=1407
San Juan 21, Displacement=1400
Sanibel 18, Displacement=1369
Santana 21, Displacement=1700
Seaward Fox(Cat Rig), Displacement=1300
Shark-(designed By Hinterholler-1959), Displacement=2100
Sirius 21, Displacement=1988
Skipper 20, Displacement=2000
Sonar, Displacement=2100
South Coast 21, Displacement=2000
South Coast 22, Displacement=1750
Sovereign 18, Displacement=1350
Spirit 6.5, Displacement=2100
Starwind 19, Displacement=1350
Stir Ven, Displacement=1763
Stuart Marine Mariner (keel), Displacement=1435
Stuart Marine Mariner(c/b), Displacement=1305
Stuart Marine Rhodes 19 (keel), Displacement=1325
Stuart Marine Rhodes 19(c/b), Displacement=1030
Super Foxcub 18, Displacement=1400
Tangerine 18, Displacement=1220
US 21, Displacement=1700
Ultimate 20, Displacement=1260
Ultimate 24, Displacement=2040
Van De Stadt, Displacement=1711
Venture 21, Displacement=1119
Venture 24 (1971), Displacement=2132
Victoria 18, Displacement=1250
Victory 21, Displacement=1350
Viking 22, Displacement=1909
Vivacity 20, Displacement=1790
Waarschip 570, Displacement=1650
Waller TS5.4, Displacement=1232
West Wight Potter 19 (blue Water), Displacement=1425
West Wight Potter 19 (standard), Displacement=1350
Wharram Tiki 26, Displacement=1550
Windrose 18 (1976), Displacement=1484
Windrose 20, Displacement=1650
Windrose 22, Displacement=1980

That's a big list, and many of those will fail your criteria in other ways (not 'cruisers,' not easily trailer-launchable, way too pricey, etc).

But at least that's the list of boats you can easily, safely tow with your Tacoma (and leave weight room for trailer itself and 'stuff' on the boat).

(Note the Commodore 17 = Sanibel 18, and there might be other duplicates as well).

Shopping for a boat is almost as much fun as owning (and USING) one!   ;D

[montanasailors]

Wow - Thanks so much for that website!  That's exactly the route we'll take.  I also ordered a book today, ""The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats: Reviews and Comparisons of 360 Boats Under 26 Feet".  I'm hoping this will help narrowing down our model list.  I've been looking more seriously at the Catalina 22.  Any thoughts on that specific model, especially on the different year classes (70s-86 vs 86-90s)?  Thanks again for all of your thoughts and comments.  Any other websites or books to use as reference that you would recommend?

[Grime]

Not sure where in Montana you are located but if you are in the Helena area. There was a couple of years ago a little trailersailor in Montana City. I know it sat there for 3 years and might still be sitting in their front yard.  Take the Montana City exit off I 15 and go towards the dump. I will be on your right if still there.

[Captain Smollett]

We can use Carl's calculator site to make some comparisons of some boats.  Here's the analysis I would do if I was thinking C-22 for your stated use profile.

(Lower CSR is better, and 2.0 is the 'cut-off' whereas higher MCR's are better...)

Catalina 22's are a bit heavier (here only listing the swing keel models):

Original: 2317 lbs
Mk II:  2290 lbs
Mk II Sport:  2380 lbs

All the C-22's are considered "racers" and have Capsize Screening Ratio's 2.3 - 2.5 and Motion Comfort Ratio's around 10, which sort of flies in the face of your statement:

*   More concerned with stability vs speed

Compare that, for example, to a ComPac 19/3:

2000 lbs
Cruiser/Racer Type
CSR: 2.22
MCR: 13

So, even though it is 10-13% lighter, it is at least as stable if not marginally more so.

Or, say a South Coast 21:

2000 lbs
Racer/Cruiser Type
CSR: 1.98
MCR: 16.86

So again, notably lighter (better towing) than the C-22, but MUCH better CSR and MCR numbers...meaning this boat will probably feel more comfortable and will probably BE more stable in rough conditions than the C-22.

Pros of the C-22, from a potential buyer's perspective:

* There's a HUGE fleet...all over the country.  This means you should have no trouble finding one to get on and see what they are like...both just to look and to actually sail.  I know of one in Montana, owned by a dude named Sean, if he still has her.

* Since they are so prevalent, you may be more likely to find a good deal on one; then again, it's a sought-after racing design, so you might find a lot of sellers squeezing the market.

As for the book you mention, those kinds of books are always good to read (the more comparisons of boats you can make the better), and I would also recommend a SailFar favorite Twenty Small Boats to Take You Anywhere by John Vigor.

The 20 Boats in Vigor's book do generally do not meet your present criteria, but I recommend it for a couple of reasons:

(1) You say your longer term goals might include 'bigger' sailing; this book will help narrow the list for that future boat.

(2) The criteria Vigor uses to compare the boats and the style of discussion he gives I think is instructive for ANY sail boat purchase...from a daysailor up to world travelers.

So, a couple of different books in this genre are probably worth a look.  Again, the more homework you do now, I think the happier you will be in the long run.  I did NOT do this with my first sailboat purchase, but got very lucky to stumble into a boat that I've been very happy with...the Sanibel class trailer boat that I would offer to you if she were for sale.   ;D

[mrb]

I have just purchased a 1984 Hunter 22 swing keel and took her out for first sail today. Engine 5 hp Honda.  First thing is I have her at dock where I was keeping a compac 16.  Other sailors at marina can't get over how much room below decks and how nice of a lay out she has.  One live aboard who lives on a Catalina 25 likes the Hunter berths and table better than his.  Under motor power with throttle set just above start position I had gps speed of 4.1 mph.. This was with high winds and white cap conditions.  Under main sail on a reach gps speed was Reading 5 + mph.  close reach dropped to 3+ mph.. Under main alone she hove to nicely and tacked very fast. All with hardly any heeling.  Boat has 1200 or 1300 pounds of lead internal ballast.

I mention this as older hunters in my opinion are much better boats than their newer models.  The eighty's model 22 is trailerable and affordable.  From reports I gather that the 22 has much more usable room than the newer 23 and from my own observations is much nicer than newer hunter, in my opinion and not to step on anyones toes as boats are in the eyes of the beholder.  Many will not like the 22 and that is OK.  You may want to check them out on hunter22.net and huntersailboat owners page.
Good luck on your search,

[Captain Smollett]

Also, I wanted to mention that the "book"/theoretical analysis should not trump actually getting on boats. So, if you think a c-22 (or any other) is on your short list, by all mean take any opportunity to see or sail one.