"small business or 'worst marine' "

[Frank]

Walmart, Lowe's, Home Depot, West marine etc...all "big business"...all with big inventories...al squeeze out the little guy.
I went into West Marine today. They closed 2 stores here and opened a big one. I was looking for a VHF, a few charts, a boat hook and zincs. I walked in...the guy said hello and walked away. I went to the charts and there were several drawers with no labels or master chart to choose from. I waited...looking pretty obvious I needed help. There were 4 employees...none around...only one other customer. After about 5-7 ninutes (a long wait with no one else there) I walked up to a guy stocking shelves. "can I help you" he asks...."I'm looking for Bahamas Charts" I say....he replies..."you were in the right place"  (obvious that he saw me there) and kept stocking the shelf. Now there was an employee at the checkout. I walked up with a few misc items to set on the till and ask for help. As I walked up (no one else around) he walked away and stood looking the other way in clothing. I set my items down (now about 25 minutes into this) and said F.. it. I walked out.
There is a smaller marine supplier one street back of US1, I walked in and didn't even make it to the cash...the lady was so nice and helpful.Went out of her way to get my items quickly and even drew me a map where to go to get stuff they didn't have. A big THANK YOU as I walked out to my car.
Ya know what...it's "our fault". Yep...us 'consumers' that demand 100,000 items in one store that has tons of parking right at the door. Seems we no longer care about personal service or that the lil guy might be $5 more for a VHF because he isn't buying 500 at a time, but will talk to us, explain the product AND truly appreciate our business.We want products, choices and cheap prices. And yep...we want them NOW. Doesn't matter about the small business guy that knows his products and truly tries.
If there's a neat lil marine store near you...go in, say hello, buy the cleat...even if its $2 more. The guy behind the counter will at least talk to ya AND be thankful ya came in.

End of RANT

[Captain Smollett]

If there's a neat lil marine store near you...go in, say hello, buy the cleat...even if its $2 more. The guy behind the counter will at least talk to ya AND be thankful ya came in.

Amen.


There's more to our lives than money.

On a related note, I know a lady that started a program to help school children who are on the school lunch program (5 days a week) get food on the weekends.  It's a great program with a great cause.  But recently, she told me she orders the 'combo' meal at {whatever fast food place} and throws away the french fries..she does not want them.

When I asked her about this...about wasting FOOD, she said, "Well, I'm not going to waste MONEY."  [her emphasis], because it's like 20 cents more expensive to order the sandwich and drink than the combo.

I was very saddened.

[JWalker]

When Joshua Slocum got to Tonga, the natives said "White man only know dollar"


I like the little places.

its where the natives are  ;)

[LooseMoose]

As someone who used to work in a chandlers it was part of the normal day to day to have someone come in and spend hours getting advice and comparing products... We did not mind as it was all part of the job. Sadly, more often than not the person getting all that advice would leave and then take our advice and then order from West or Defender because they were a few dollars cheaper.

We'd get them back ...sorta...when they had problems with their purchases or needed something replaced. and expected us to become an unpaid warranty arm for the big stores when they found that West, Defender and the other big box stores were not only iffy on helping with advice in purchasing they were also less than wonderful on their after sales service.

Just the world we live in...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[Oldrig]

I like to order stuff I know about from Defender or Hamilton Marine. Unfortunately one store is in CT and the other, the best for real info, is in Maine.

So I often end up at West Marine.

It's awfully easy to bash West -- their prices are not the best, and their summertime employees, at least in my area, tend to be kids. However, I have learned to look for salespeople with gray hair (like my own).

These folks tend to be longtime boaters, often retirees who work at West to get the employee discount.

During the summer, I've had the same kind of experience as LooseMoose. However, when I walk into West Marine during the spring, fall or winter, there's usually an older guy who's more than happy to discuss various products and direct me to something that's close to what I want.

Some of my favorite stores are those that cater to professional mariners. Hamilton is one, Sandwich Ship Supply, on Cape Cod, is another. Unfortunately, Sandwich Ship just doesn't stock stuff for recreational sailors.

There are also some awesome marine supply places in working ports, like New Bedford. Unfortunately, they're usually not open on weekends and, again, they don't stock too much non-workboat-related stuff. But they're great for paper charts, life jackets and hardware.

So, if you shop at West Marine, look for the older folks. Most of them seem to know what they're selling.

--Joe

[CharlieJ]

I tend to agree with almost all of this, but-

I've dealt with Defender Industries since about 1977 or 78. They have ALWAYS been great both in advice and assistance. Steven Lance who runs Defender is second generation there- his dad started Defender. He  follows quite a few forums and if he hears of service problems, gets involved directly.

So talk about Walmart and West Marine, but in my opinion, Defender is far different.

[LooseMoose]

My post was not anti Defender or West for that matter but simply that folks tend to get their service from local folks while using the big movers of product to buy from for their price point. The issue in my opinion is not the stores that sell cheap as much as it is the customers who take advatage of the small boutique and Mom/Pop stores.

My experience with Defender as a customer has been non-problematic (we recently bought all of our new rigging from them) but if I were to have a problem it would entail mailing or shipping products back to the states which is expensive and time consuming which is why so many of our customers would try and have our shop do the after sales service as it was easier to bring in a malfunctioning radio or whatever to us in St Thomas rather that Fed Ex it to the USA for $90...

The problem is not the seller but that most customers expect to have their cake and eat it too these days.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[Godot]

I must be extremely lucky when I go into West Marine.  Usually I see some kids at the checkout. They are pleasant and efficient but often don't know much about the product (unless you're talking wake boards or something).  Perhaps they will learn as time goes on; perhaps they are just there to earn a few dollars.  Boy do they know how to work the computer to find a part that they don't stock, though.  That is, once they understand exactly what it is I'm looking for (sometimes I know what the part looks like, what the part does, but not the approved name of the part).  But, there is always someone else walking the store, and that person is almost always knowledgeable (and in charge).  And usually, probably not coincidentally, middle age or older.

That said, I do a lot of boat shopping at the local Ace Hardware and at the small shop at my marina.  And online (Defender, Raka, Amazon, Sailrite, some camper store I forgot the name of, etc...).

BTW, it's worth while just wandering around hardware stores on occasion with an eye to non-marine equivalents.  For instance, somewhere along the way I lost the post to my cabin table.  West Marine wants $167.99 for a replacement.  Defender wants $119.99.  I determined that 2" EMT is a perfect fit at $13 for a ten foot length.  It's not as shiny and pretty.  I'm not sure how long it is going to last.  But for the price differential, I'm willing to find out.  BTW, I suspect the original Seafarer post may very well have been EMT.  It was a little corroded and pitted when I last saw it; but at 35 years old I couldn't complain.

Of course, owning an old sailboat with very little real value does wonders for tempering the "oooh, shiny!" reflex to buy cool new stuff. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to put in expensive fixtures when an everyday item will work (I'd be more cautious with safety items; but even there I'd at least consider the options ... "marine" doesn't necessarily mean "better").  It also helps that where I sail on the Chesapeake the water isn't all that salty and corrosion hasn't been much of a problem.

[Godot]

Oh, poop.  I didn't mean to hijack one rant with another.

[Oldrig]

Loose,

I've got to agree with you on Defender.

Their customer service folks are GREAT. I was able to find just the right piece for a rebuild of my bilge pump, even though it wasn't in either their online or printed catalog, just by describing it on the phone.

And Adam,

Of course you're right, too. You can often get really good stuff in a regular hardware store, provided it's the kind of old-fashioned hardware store that sells individual nuts, bolts and fasteners and where the salespeople are willing to help you track down a part that might only result in a sale of a few bucks. Luckily, there are still two such stores in my area. (Unfortunately a Lowe's just opened near one of them, so I wonder how long they'll stay in business.)

--Joe

[CharlieJ]

LooseMoose-  totally agree about the customers. Experienced that both when I shared a building with a sailboat dealer with a small store AND when I took over the dealership.  We couldn't BUY some stuff wholesale for what Walmart was selling the same item for. Made it hard to sell some things, or even justify having hem in stock.

Justfelt the need to 'defend' Defender :D :D

[Frank]

Seems I've started something. As Loose Moose states...it is the customer....wanting their cake and eating it too. We have truly become a "consumer driven" society. Like I sais in my rant "It's our fault".
While this has nothing to do with boats....Judy an I back-packed through Italy about 6 yrs ago. NO big stores...all lil shops (1000's of them) with the owners talking to the customers...all 'friendships'.
Reminded me of growing up. In my little town there were 5 small grocery stores within a 2 block walk of our home. Mom would send me with a note to any of them. They all knew me by name and my family. Saddly...they have all closed. The big guys won.
I guess thats the reason for my rant. I was disgusted not only at the service....but at myself for not seeking out a "little guy" 1st

[Bob23]

To all:
   I'm the new guy here but this is an all too familiar scenrio. But here in my town in the South of New Jersey, there is a little mom and pop boat shop named appropriately "The Boat Shop". Great prices, great service and if they don't have it, they'll get it tomorrow. Of course, one store can't meet all the needs and unfortunately, they don't specialize in sail boat stuff.
   Before Boaters World went out of business, they were planning on opening a store a half mile away from The Boat Shop. I asked the owner if he was worried and, smiling replied "no, not really. Our prices are better, our service is better and we've been here for 30 years." Boaters World folded before the store could even open.
   I like small coffee shops where I can gab with the owners as opposed to Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts. I like to intereact with people. I realize we are living in a different time but even in the context of the large store, there are still some great people who work there who are worth getting to know.
Bob23
(ps: I like Defender. Great service; great prices.)

[Auspicious]

I was in the local WM the other day and happened to be wearing khaki shorts and a dark blue polo shirt (Bermuda US Consulate as it happens). I ended up with a small line of people waiting to ask me questions (*grin*) and that was in a store where most of the staff are pretty good.

[Captain Smollett]

As someone who used to work in a chandlers it was part of the normal day to day to have someone come in and spend hours getting advice and comparing products... We did not mind as it was all part of the job. Sadly, more often than not the person getting all that advice would leave and then take our advice and then order from West or Defender because they were a few dollars cheaper.

I'm not Jewish so I don't know if this is true, but heard a few years ago that it is a violation of "Jewish Law" to enter a shop, take up the owner's time and leave without buying anything.

I know some who would do that and BRAG about it...go in, talk the ear off the guy in the store getting all manners of free advice, then go buy where it is "cheaper."  I got into a rather "heated debate" with my BiL this past summer about this sort of thing...shopping at Walmart to save a few $$ means paying in other ways.

I GLADLY pay a little more to buy from the local guy - my siblings think I am certifiably crazy for doing this...

[sugar magnolia]

For me defender is a local business, in fact its about 5mins from where we launch the dinghy. As far as I know, they have always been in CT and the entire operation is run out of the one large building. They have a really nice store and the retail sales staff are mostly quite knowledgeable.

To my suprise this past spring I discovered that many things were actually cheaper than defender in the store at the marina! They can order just about anything that West Marine has in the catalog at or below the catalog price. I once saw a WM "port supply" truck doing a delivery, so I think that tells the story.

Reading through all your posts made me realize that we actually have it pretty good... the challenge is finding good boatbuilding lumber...

[Godot]

I noticed, once, that most electronics and appliances I buy at Wal~Mart die within a year or so.  It took three consecutive DVD players and two coffee pots to figure that out.  A little research on the part numbers proved that only WalMart sells these models (even though they looked identical to what you can buy elsewhere at a higher price point).  I strongly suspect that they put so much pressure on manufacturers to deliver products for cheaper and cheaper prices that in order to remain profitable the manufactures cut corners.  We may have reached the point of diminishing returns with discount big box stores.

[Bubba the Pirate]

Recent Experience: fiberglass cloth tape - almost $3 / yd @ West Marine; less than $1 @ Defender.
        I was glad I wasn't in a hurry, but UPS only took about 3 days anyway.

Also, I have an article about Marine Consignment Shops tentatively scheduled for March Issue of Good Old Boat. My concluding paragraph sounds an awful lot like some of these posts about Mom and Pop Service!  ;D

Todd

[CharlieJ]

[quote author=Godot link=topic=

BTW, it's worth while just wandering around hardware stores on occasion with an eye to non-marine equivalents.  For instance, somewhere along the way I lost the post to my cabin table.  West Marine wants $167.99 for a replacement.  Defender wants $119.99.  I determined that 2" EMT is a perfect fit at $13 for a ten foot length.  It's not as shiny and pretty.  I'm not sure how long it is going to last.  But for the price differential, I'm willing to find out.  BTW, I suspect the original Seafarer post may very well have been EMT.  It was a little corroded and pitted when I last saw it; but at 35 years old I couldn't complain.

[/quote]

That EMT should do just fine for years. Our first Bimini frame was made from 3/4 EMT that lasted 3 years. Got a little rusty towards the end but it was outside all the time.

[SV Wind Dancer]

I've never set a foot inside a West Marine store.