Least exhausting size of boat to cruise?

[Jim_ME]

I came upon this thread and an interesting discussion of the motion comfort of various designs...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/archive/t-20655.html

Including a list of boat designs and their Motion Comfort Ratio (similar to the Capsize Screening Ratios that John has posted) as one method to try to quantify (and compare) this characteristic.

Excerpt from that thread: "Motion Comfort Ratio was developed by Boat Designer Ted Brewer. The formula predicts the speed of the upward and downward motion of the boat as it encounters waves and swells. The faster the motion the more uncomfortable the passengers. Thus, the formula predicts the overall comfort of a boat when it is underway. Higher values denote a more comfortable ride. As the Displacement increases the motion comfort ratio will increase. As the length and beam increases [for a given displacement, I believe he means] the motion comfort ratio will decrease." - Antonio Alcal

[SeaHusky]

RossD, welcome and thanks for your post!
It is informative and does give some hope. Sorry to here about your condition(s) but I'm glad it doesn't stop you.
(ME/CFS is what I have so for me it's more of a fatigue issue than limited mobility.)
Thanks to the rest of you also.
The Motion Comfort ratio is interesting although I find it difficult to relate it to anything familiar.
What I was going for in my original post was (is) if there is a meaningful way to measure the fatigue caused by discomfort as opposed to fatigue due to handling big sails and a heavy boat but maybe this is not possible, or perhaps the line goes somewhere at 25-30 feet?
In some other post I read that the effort for sailhandling doubles when OAL goes from 30 to 35 feet...
Also the comment about IOR-based boats may relate to a statement by Alberg I read somewhere where he said that he designed his boats to sail well without six gorillas hanging over the side ;).   

[Auspicious]

I just got home from a 13-day light-air cold-weather delivery of a Swan 47 from Oxford MD to Virgin Gorda, BVI. I'm exhausted and my back is killing me. That boat is the least comfortable craft I have ever sailed. There is quite literally nowhere to sit that is comfortable.

The experience caused me to reflect on John's early point of comfort=rest. This is nothing to do with boat size and everything to do with ergonomics. I consider myself quite fortunate to have a boat with many comfortable places to sit.

Now where did I put that heating pad?

[Frank]

Reviving an ole thread.....

I've thought about this....lots. Typical 22's simply don't have capacity for enough storage, or much headroom (I said typical...), 30's are better off shore. I truly enjoyed my 27 last winter....she's a 'keeper'....great set of compromises. But I gotta tell you...the difference in every aspect from a 25 to a 27 is huge!  Way more hull to clean/wax. Way more bottom paint. Sails are just that much bigger and harder to handle solo. I honestly think that if you are coastal cruising and will only do 1-3 day passages offshore (with great forecasts), that a shallow draft 25 fter is really hard to beat!! Simply that much less boat and less sails to deal with, yet still often standing headroom (or very close to it). Most have shallower draft...which to me is extremely important. (Keys-Bahamas) They generally have acceptable heads as well. Although not enough storage to cross the Pacific ...which wouldn't be in the plan...they have enough to get away for weeks on end. So...if coastal cruising, Florida Keys, Bahamas and even Cuba are in your sights...I think a good 25fter is the easiest to deal with and least exhausting boat to cruise.

[CharlieJ]

:D :D says a 25 footer owner :D

[CharlieJ]

Now, a serious reply :)

I owned and cruised a 35 foot trimaran. Lived aboard full time for 3 years. Was a great boat for a younger guy, with a wife and teenage son aboard. Had lots of help with sails, bottom etc.

Of course, it took 2 1/2 gallons of bottom paint to do that 100 foot ( 3 hulls remember?) of hull. And haulouts were EXPENSIVE!!

Now, I sail a 25. Perfect for me, or me and one other person. Now I will freely admit she isn't large enough to live on full time. If I were gonna live aboard, I'd like something in the 28 foot range.

But for shorter, 2 season use, she's great. One gallon paints two coats on the hull easily, anchors are small enough that a 74 yr old can handle alone, as are sails. The forces are just reasonable. I say 2 season, because it goes back to storage- not enough room for winter clothes, bedding etc, to be stowed. Simply not enough space. The big difference (and Frank alludes to it) is beam. A Pearson Ariel, at 26 feet has an 8 foot beam. Tehani at 25, is a 7 foot beam. HUGE difference in interior space, without a lot of size increase.

Do remember- Eric and Susan Hiscock lived  aboard a 30 foot wooden boat, which with framing, was probably close to a 28 inside. And they circumnavigated 2 times on Wanderer II.

AND- Smaller vessels, and longer cruises, are the WHOLE focus of this forum. And after some 10,000 miles aboard Tehani, I'm convinced. And if this blasted rain will let me finish preparing,  I'm gone again this coming Saturday. :D

Oh, and I'm gonna be single hand

[Frank]

Good luck on your getaway CJ.  Open your "cruising" thread again with "prep pics"

I honestly found the main on the 27 just 'that much bigger' whether reefing or simply folding up to tie down. Just 'that much more' boat to wash n wax...n paint.  The beam is 9 1/2...lots of interior and great side decks...but I honestly noticed a difference over the 25 in the 'work' end.

You have a fine and pretty lil ship there CJ. Seaworthy and shallow draft!  Gotta love it!

[Travelnik]

I know that I have that atypical 22' boat. At 6' I have standing headroom in the main cabin and galley area, and good seated headroom in the head.  ;D

Without an inboard engine, storage is very good under the cockpit area, as well as under the berths.

Even though she was made for the placid waters of the North Sea, and has only made one Atlantic crossing, I would feel very confident in her abilities to handle the ICW, Florida Keys and Bahamas.  ;D

For sails, I can use the pre-made sails for a Catalina 22. With her 2'4" draft, I can access most places that I would like to go.
In a good tidal area, I can let her sit on her twin keels and skeg for cleaning and bottom paint instead of a haul out.

She may not be fast, but no sailboat is compared to a land vehicle or airplane. (A kid on a multi-speed bicycle will go faster than most of the bigger cruising sailboats!)  :o

All in all, I think she's the perfect boat for me!   ;)

[Frank]

Yep.......it does a LOT of things 'right' 

Love the shallow draft! And standing in a 22 is SO rare!

Small sails, beach to scrub the bottom....hard to beat!

[SeaHusky]

Since I started this thread I have made my choice and got what I think is a good compromise for me and what "I" want to do with it.
A 27', 4 ton displacement, inboard diesel, long keeled, oceangoing boat with reasonably shallow draft without standing headroom!
Swedish boats are traditionally sleek cruisers with beautiful lines meant for sailing in the archipelago and to be moored to shore over night.
Since you got to step ashore every day there was no need for standing headroom and when the Vega was built with this feature it was considered so ugly that no real sailor would go near it. That is the reason why Norlin designed my boat a couple of inches shy of standing headroom. He didn't dare challenge the norm so that is the greatest drawback that I will have to live with or possibly fix.
I did look at British boats that almost all have standing headroom as they are made for the open coasts and staying aboard. I even looked at the Nomad but British boats are still expensive compared to used, Swedish boats and there are few to be found this side of the north sea so I was forced to rule them out.
Other than that I am refitting her to suit my slightly disabled needs with tiller pilot, VHF-radio and AIS-transponder which gives the need for a chart plotter and consequently a large capacity battery bank.
Sometimes I feel I may be straying from the KISS-principle but I don't think so because I am going for safety and functionality, not luxury. 

[Frank]

The Vega is a very fine boat!!
I've been aboard one...nice below as well.
There is an old way to judge head room...
"how hard is it to change your pants?"
While not 'quite' full standing head room....still darn easy on your Vega    ;)

[SeaHusky]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Vega, as "less traditional" sailing families found as it became the third most serial produced boat in Sweden. I was just stating the reason why almost no Swedish designs under 30 feet have standing headroom while many American and British designs of 25 feet or even less often do.
The biggest problem I have found is that when you keep your head tilted slightly forward it is inevitable, when going forward, to bang it against the mast support beam which on my boat is reinforced with stainless steel. I have to fix that...

[Bubba the Pirate]

Three cheers for the Vega!!  I've got one too. She sails like a dream.

[SeaHusky]

The Vega was on my short list but for some reason i chose differently. However my boat and Bubbas are very similar in size, length, speed (they have the exact same LYS number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LYS_%28sailing%29) and cost about the same in equal used condition so comfort wise - did I make the right choice or not?  :)
The main difference is displacement and beam and according to Ted Brewers Comfort Ratio beam is negative but displacement is positive for comfort. Does anyone know how to crunch the numbers?

Next, I have put my 100 kg battery bank beneath the starboard bunk about amidships and to counter that a 100 liter water sack on the opposite side, also amidships. Now centering the weight amidships will let the bow and stern "ride the waves" better but will this lead to more discomfort than having the weight in the bow and stern?   

Also, Frank says "get the biggest anchor you can handle" so what size anchor can a person reasonably handle manually without a windlass (with some length of chain)? Is a 40 lbs anchor to much?

[CharlieJ]

40 pounds!!! I anchored my 35 foot trimaran all over with a 35 pounder.

Tehani carries a 22 pound Bruce clone, with 75 feet of 1/4 G4 chain and in close to 10,000 miles has failed to set once, in a spot where the books told us it wouldn't. And has never dragged

And the newer gen anchors just may be even better.

I'd bet a 25 pound anchor along with  75- 100 feet of chain, would do you well

[Frank]

22ln delta, 1/4 chain on my 27.....never dragged. 40 is overkill....unless you're on steroids    :o

[SeaHusky]

Well, I am looking at a Rocna and the sizing guide says 22 lbs so one step up is 33 and two steps is 44.
http://www.rocna.com/product-range/sizing-guide
I'm sure I have read on this forum that you should look at the sizing guide and then go up a step or even two... :)
Maybe the anchor manufacturers have read that to and have adjusted their recommendations accordingly?

So is a 22 lb Rocna with 10' of 1/4" chain enough overkill for my 4,5 tons (fully loaded)?

[Frank]

here goes that darn anchor talk   ;)

kinda like politics n religion.....      everyone has an opinion.

My 2 cents....   about all my opinion is worth...

At 4.5 tons..your boat is heavier than mine or CJ's. I "think" a 33 with 50' chain would be more than fine.
Probably get by with the 22....but you'd feel safer with the 33.
A 44 with chain is really heavy to handle.

[CharlieJ]

Probably get by with the 22....but you'd feel safer with the 33.
A 44 with chain is really heavy to handle.

Got THAT right, especially with no windlass. And think of chain weight, in say 25 feet of water. And yeah, sometimes we DO anchor deep.

And Frank, your opinion is well worth heeding- you've been "out there"

[SeaHusky]

Sorry to bring up a sensitive topic but I will take Franks advice and go for 33 lbs with 50' chain so there is no need to bring out the flame throwers.
Also that means that your advice is worth at least the cost of a new anchor.

About the "Ted Brewers Comfort Ratio" I found the formula and did the math.
The Vega has a CR of 20.29 and the Allegro has 26.03.
If we add 500kg of load to both we get 22.29 for the Vega and 27.77 for the Allegro.
This shows that displacement is the big factor and that I made the right choice for what I want and need.

I am still interested in your opinions about centering the weight amidships as opposed to for and aft?