How do I choose a new boat?

[Lost Lake]

My last boat was a Compac 19.  That is way to small for what we do. Since I've owned that boat I have taken many sailing classes and been on beautiful boats in the 32' to 38' size. I took the ASA class for catamarans on lake Superior in an older but good sized cat with 4 bedrooms.

Now my business had a great year and I have a little cash I could spend on a weekender that I would like to sail on the Great Lakes. My criteria is that it must sleep my family and be big enough to entertain friends. My family is 3 kids and the warden and I. Kids are 9, 13, and 15.

I'd like to know what a respectable boat in the 30's size would be. I could wallow around looking at hundreds of boats, but I know you guys here know where to start. Maybe a Tartan or a Pearson? Cape Dory? I'd flirt with the idea of sailing down to the Florida Keys or Bahamas in the future. I plan on retiring in 9 years and would love to sail the BVI, but I can always get a new boat if the one I sail the lakes wouldn't quite be ideal for the tropics.

Thanks for any input you can give me.... I know this is a great place for small boats, but right now small isn't going to work for the family.

[Godot]

There is a definite Alberg/Rhodes design style bias on this forum.  However, given that a growing family and "Big enough to entertain friends" is your primary criteria, I'm not sure I'd jump at a Cape Dory, Bristol or most of the Pearsons as they tend to be a bit narrow.  Good for sailing seaworthiness (speed is arguable given the higher displacements and shorter waterlines), not as good (for the length) for sleepin' an' 'tainin'.  I've  never been on a Tartan so can't comment.  In any case, it does look like you are looking for the most room for length.  It sounds like you are the target audience of Hunter and Catalina and the like.  I'm no expert; but there are a bazillion boats out there with unreal interiors crammed into shortish hulls.  They might not sail as well (on the other hand, I understand Hunters and Catalinas sail pretty good when the winds are moderate), might be built a bit lighter, and probably wouldn't be the first choice to round the horn; but might work fer you perfectly.

I have a limited experience level on most of these boats, so don't consider me an expert or anything.  But I do believe in using the right tool for the job.  Your BVI boat is probably not the same "cruise the great lakes with a big family and entertain friends" boat.

I could be wrong.

[Oldrig]

Hey Lost:

I'm one of those with a strong Cape Dory (Alberg) bias, but considering the size and ages of your family, I'm inclined to agree with Adam that you might consider something more contemporary. Have you looked at Sabre? They are well built, with a bit more beam than the older full- and modified full-keeled boats.

Another boat that impresses me is the older models of Island Packet. Their hull shape is based, loosely, on the Cape Cod catboat, which is a design that I, as somebody who sails out of Cape Cod, have always loved. The newer Island Packets are, I've been told, loaded to the gunwales with expensive goodies for entertaining, but a neighbor of mine has a 28, and it's a fine looking and fine sailing boat with lots of room for its length.

Some folks claim that the new generation of Hunters is actually worth looking at, although I've got my doubts. But if you're looking at used boats--and most people I know have never bought a new boat--than I'd be leery of Hunters, IMHO.

Somewhere along the line you're going to have to decide where your needs fall on the comfort vs. seaworthiness graph.

Good luck in your search.

--Joe

[Lost Lake]

I think I will narrow my search down to something that is floating in the Great Lakes, so I can sail her to her new home port. Well, sail it within a week's time at least, because technically I could sail from Lake Michigan to Asia if I wanted.....

I know Hunters, Beneteaus, and Catalinas get a bad rap, and it is true they are not built like an Alberg, Pearson or Cape Dory. For what I need the boat to do now, I may have to sacrifice blue water capability for comfort. My wife will expect luxury and ease, and perhaps down the road I will re-size to a smaller but much more capable blue water cruiser.

So I'm poking around and looking, have seen a Catalina 36 from 1984 listed for $45k. I think I will need to look at a lot of boats, then narrow my choices down to two, find a couple that represent those models in my price range and get surveys done.

What's my price range? I haven't figured that out yet. I'm more of a value kind of guy, so if I see a beautiful boat that's a steal at $100K I would take it instead of a money pit for $10K. Is the Catalina 36 worth $45K ??? I need advice there.... NADA puts the value at $30K, but I'm sure I have to consider mechanicals and electronics....

I'll probably contact a broker and see what they can find. They may have input as to what I can expect, and I can ask a couple sailing friends for their opinions also.

And Oldrig, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned Hunter. They do have a nice layout and live large. They are not built very well from what I have seen. But they may be an option if I can get one that surveys well and I can turn it over in 7 or 8 years. Possibly even buy in a down market and sell in an up!

[Captain Smollett]

For what I need the boat to do now

That is probably the single most important parameter to pin down before you buy. If a buyer is honest about this, the odds increase tremendously of enjoying the boat.

Sounds like you are on your way to finding the best boat for you at this time.

If you don't ask the boat to do what she's not suited for, she should provide a ton of fun. Just keep being honest with yourself as your needs/goals change.   Keep in mind, though, that wigs at both Beneteau and Catalina have explicitly admitted they design more for anchor/marina comfort than underway comfort. Getting caught out in rough Great Lakes conditions, a less seakindly boat will seem more scary to crew and guests.  Just a thought...

Beyond that, who cares if it's the boat *I* (or anyone else) would choose.  I would gladly share an  anchorage or sunset with you.

The Rhodes/Alberg bias derives from the 'far' part of sailfar.  :)

[Oldrig]

Lost:

The larger Catalinas from the 1980s were pretty decent mass-market boats, and they had lots of amenities.

Also, I should say that the older Hunters, those built in Canada a long way back, were supposed to be pretty solid. In fact, I sailed one from Point Judith, Rhode Island, on a straight course to Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. That's blue water--and the Hunter performed well.

When I was in last year's Bermuda Cruising Rally, there was a brand new Hunter 45 (I might have the number wrong) that made the trip. We ran into some pretty rough conditions on the way back, and they made it. So it's probably unfair to tar all Hunters with the same brush.

Anyway, it sounds like you're looking for something with creature comforts, rather than offshore/bulletproof capabilities.

BTW, if you're interested in the larger Catalinas, you might see if there are any Sabre 34s on the Lakes. Those are lovely, comfortable boats IMHO. A good friend of mine was looking for a boat to share with his nonsailing wife and his tugboat captain brother. They settled on the Sabre 34.

Keep us posted on your selection.

--Joe

[Lost Lake]

I just searched for Sabre 34 and found a couple of Sabre 36's out there. Wow, those look like nice boats. Then I saw Hunter 34 and 36's, a Tartan and an Island Packet.... My Lord, there are so many boats to be looked at it boggles my mind. And prices all over the place, but it seems like $50,000 will get a pretty nice boat, not spectacular, but I should be able to find something in the mid 30 foot range for less than $50K. I can put a bit of work into it and keep it for a few years then move up in quality and down in size for just the wife and me....  :)

[Jim_ME]

Something like this might be worth considering, if roominess and having the privacy of a separate aft cabin would be a desirable feature for entertaining, etc.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/boa/2202620612.html

For reference, this ad of a sistership has some photos that show the interior...
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/14514

Good luck with your search.

-Jim

[Lost Lake]

Here's another question for all: What do you think of transverse mounted beds?? Especially on a monohull. I would think the wave action would make a guy sick, but I have never slept sideways on a monohull.

[Godot]

Never tried a transverse bunk myself; but I've heard of a couple people doing so without too much complaint.  I believe Tania Abei eventually made a transverse bunk across Varuna (Contessa 26) which she claimed in her book was a vast improvement in comfort.  I'm not sure, though, if that improvement manifested itself at sea or only in port.

My feel is that almost anything will be ok if you are only using it for a couple days a year at sea (with the possible exception of the forepeak ... I tried that on Auspicious and it was a bruising experience).  Serious voyaging requires serious thought.

[Godot]

OH, I lied!  I did sleep in a transverse bunk just last year.  It was on a stinkpot, not a sailboat; but it was completely comfortable.  Again, this is at the dock one night, and at anchor the next, not underway (no place on that boat would be comfortable for sleeping underway).

[Captain Smollett]

Having tried, on many occasions, to sleep in a tent pitched on a slope, I can only guess that sleeping on a heeling sailboat either head-down or feet-down will not result in much rest.  YMMV.

I will, however, be moving our main cabin to a transverse arrangement for in-port.  That's been on the project list for a couple of years, but some structural issues have taken precedence.

[DavidCrosby]

I have several comments on numerous points of this thread. My view points are coming from someone that does not have 40 - 50 K to spend on a boat (I would if the wife would go for selling the house) and a land locked inland lake sailor to boot.

I have owned boats for the past 35 years. In the cabin boat variety, I have owned:
1973 Kenner Kittiwake 23 - beautiful boat but very little interior room. No kids, just the wife and I. My wife would not sleep on it due to being claustrophobic.
1975 Morgan 30 (Classic 300 model) - I loved this boat. Rebuilt it from a wreck. We had a lot of good years with it and was perfect for parents and two young kids. Ultimately got rid of it, because I could not afford to take it anywhere. Marina fees were too much for me. I needed something cheaper.
2002 Catalina 250 WK - This is not my ultimate dream boat, but it is trailerable and much easier on the pocket book. For sleeping comfort, this boat has far more room than the Morgan 30. It lacks on headroom, but the over sized companionway hatch and dodger-like enclosure provides full standing headroom where needed the most. My wife actually loves this boat and sleeps on it regularly. While I can not cross oceans in this boat, I can do the great loop and on a good day make it to the Bahamas.
Compac 16 - When I was in between cabin boats, I once borrowed the neighbor's Compac 16 for a week. They say these will sleep two. I made a temporary transverse berth by laying a board and cushion across the two berths. Frankly, I felt like I was sleeping in a sarcophagus.

If I could afford it and my plans were just for a comfortable weekend lake/coastal boat I would not hesitate to buy a Catalina 36.

Regarding Beneteaus. I crossed the Atlantic in 2009 on a Beneteau Oceanis 473. We went from St. Thomas to the Azores to Scotland. We had plenty of wind and waves on the Azores to Scotland leg. I would not hesitate to take that boat around the world.

Regarding transverse berths: My berth on the Beneteau mentioned above was an aft cabin double. being a big double, I found myself sleeping at many different angles and many different places. My favorite seemed to be snuggled up against the center bulkhead of the engine compartment. During the Scotland leg, we were on a beat heeled over hard for days. During that period I slept with my head to the high side and my feet against the hull and legs ridged. The problem with this is that when I would fall asleep my knees would collapse and I would slide downhill while my underpants would slide up. A wedgie will wake you every time.

[Jim_ME]

When I suggested looking at the O'Day 32 center cockpit/aft cabin, I was thinking that your desire for a roominess (and privacy) for entertaining might be addressed by a design with an aft cabin. I had seen some ads for the O'Day 32 at what seemed like reasonable prices, and saw that one in your region. However I had not seen photos of the interior at the time I posted and wasn't aware that the aft cabin berth was of the large transverse type. I have some experience with the S2 9.2C which had an aft cabin and similar transverse berth, and while it was fine at the dock or a calm anchorage, I wouldn't expect it to be much of a sea berth.

I don't know that an aft cabin would fit your needs, but they do offer quite a bit space and privacy for the LOA size--so just to pursue that concept for a moment, here are a couple aft cabin designs that have what I'd consider better layouts...(although not in your area).

Westerly Renown 31
http://www.sailingtexas.com/swesterly27101.html
and the archive photos page...
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/westerly-renown/westerly-renown.htm

Hallberg Rassy Rasmus 35 (beautiful interior)
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/21194
and the HR page on the interior layout (with cool interactive click to photos, although not in the aft cabin)
http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/rasmus/rasmus_interior.shtml

 

[wildman]

The problem with this is that when I would fall asleep my knees would collapse and I would slide downhill while my underpants would slide up. A wedgie will wake you every time.

;D

[Captain Smollett]

I slept with my head to the high side and my feet against the hull and legs ridged. The problem with this is that when I would fall asleep my knees would collapse and I would slide downhill while my underpants would slide up. A wedgie will wake you every time.

Which was exactly my point above.  How can being awakened every time you fall asleep be conducive to good rest?

If a fore-aft sea berth does not have this problem, what does a transverse berth offer to the table that outweighs compromised crew rest?

It seems to me that transverse berths are part of an overall cabin design that favors in-port "comfort."

I have slept at sea in a fore and aft berth hard on the wind, for example...wedged into the lee side of the berth... and slept like the proverbial baby.  Awakening rested is a priority for watch standers...at least aboard my boat.

For this reason, I will not permit transverse sleeping arrangements while underway.  

As an aside, I think this is another advantage of the relatively narrow CCA designs versus more modern beamier (and roomier below) designs.  The fore-aft berths are closer to the centerline and roll movement is smaller for sleeping crew.

Regarding Beneteaus. I crossed the Atlantic in 2009 on a Beneteau Oceanis 473. ... I would not hesitate to take that boat around the world.

I'm glad that you have faith born of experience in that boat.

I'm ghosting along a lee shore here, so I must move carefully.  The "bias" against Beneteaus that you might perceive here is related to the SIZE.  You had a good experience on a 47 footer, and that's a lot of boat by this site's "standards."

The issue is of comparing the comfort/stability/safety of a 25-30 boat to a 47 foot boat.  Many of us are choosing smaller (under 30 feet LOA) for a variety of reasons, so we must look to see what is "safe" in that size range.  From what I gather, the mid-20's Benny's are nowhere near the same class of safety and seaworthiness as that 473.  My own research into boat designs has shown me that with the Beneteaus, you do have to get up to the mid 40's in LOA to get to acceptable static stability design numbers.

If you are inclined to own and operate a 47 ft boat, taking the 473 around the world is a choice I would never argue with you having the right to make.  However, if one wants the same reliability in 'getting to the other side,' in a mid-20's cruiser (for whatever reason that would be), I think one is better served to look at different design parameters than straight, plumb stems, wide flat bottom, reverse transom, small L/B, etc that the smaller Bennys provide.

I hope my point is clear and does not get misunderstood; I'm not attacking Beneteaus across the board, only that in the smaller LOA's, there are boats that are far BETTER at long distance cruising.

[CharlieJ]

After spending 6 days at sea recently, banging to weather the whole time in winds that often were in the 20 to 25 knot range, I am in total agreement with Smollett.

The boat we were aboard was a Tartan 41, originally rigged for racing. At sea, the vee berth is unusable- you simply cannot stay put. The boat we were aboard has a pilot berth and a settee on the port side, but only a wide settee to starboard.. On starboard tack, this was fine- one off watch in the pilot, one on the settee. But on Port tack, not so good. What we did was pull the cushion off the port settee, throw it on the cabin sole and sleep there, quite comfortably I might add.

I doubt we'd have been able to sleep at all in transverse berths