Some thoughts on boat size

[Jim_ME]

Here is an archive page showing the Longbow 31 and a couple photos of the low companionway and shallow wimpy bridge deck...
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/westerly-longbow/westerly-longbow.htm

Here is the Centaur page with a couple photos showing the bridge deck...
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/westerly-centaur/westerly-centaur.htm

I've wondered why Giles would omit the bridge deck, too. Was it because the cabin trunk goes so far aft and the cockpit was small enough that he felt that the cockpit needed the seating area? Did he feel like the Longbow might be fast enough to be more of a racer than the Centaur and would carry a larger racing crew much of the time and needed to maximize cockpit seating? Was the larger boat enough more expensive that it was targeted to older buyers that were more likely to be able to afford it, but to whom a bridge deck and taller ladder inside would present more difficulty climbing over? Would the boat be used more for entertaining and daysailing so that he wanted the cabin and cockpit to be more accessible to each other?

When I look at the interior profile section drawing, it looks like with the engine/cabin arrangement, that it would be difficult to have a ladder and bridge deck, since there was so much horizontal distance needed above the motor, which would have required an extra-long companionway opening in the cabin trunk, and the landing/ladder would have taken up more room in the cabin. I don't know if this consideration was an influence on the design, or just the result of other considerations.

Westerly built/sold 260 Longbows between 1970 and 1980, but 2555 Centaurs in that same period, so it seems safe to say that the bridge deck on the Centaur didn't put buyers off too much. ;) (The Centaur was also smaller and no doubt affordable to a larger market, too.)

[tomwatt]

Westerly's have always attracted/repelled me.
Especially the older, "knuckle-bow" models.
The Longbow/Berwick/Reknown/Pentland, etc. are all on the same hull.
There is a Westerly Owners' Assoc. website that offers some more info on them...
http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/index.htm
I always liked the Reknown, thought it might make a nice cruising ketch.
Although I've read that the Conway is a more seaworthy model (scuttlebutt is worth what ya' pay for it).

[Jim_ME]

Charlie, Your writing about the Hiscock's boat being a Laurent Giles 30-foot design reminded me that I thought they owned a Giles Vertue 25-footer...

I found this website
http://www.bluemoment.com/hiscocks.html
and read that they did and it was Wanderer II.  ;D

I found this to be a very interesting article about heavy weather sailing in a Vertue...
http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/vertueArticle.htm

[CharlieJ]

Yep- I have one of his smaller books, titled "Wandering Under Sail" which details his first boats, before he met Susan. He sailed all over the English Channel and Brittany coast with no engine- in Wanderer (18 foot sloop built in 1898), then  Wanderer II, which was built for him and designed by Jack Giles.

According to that book she was a gaff cutter 24 feet on deck, 7'2" beam, drawing 5 feet, with a bowsprit. and transom hung rudder.

Wanderer II was the boat he had when he and Susan met, and began sailing together.


One of my favorite quotes from the book is this-

"That I bought my first boat on a Wednesday, sailed her away on a Thursday, and found her wrecked on a Friday is an unfortunate fact."

;D

[Jim_ME]

Tom, My initial reaction to the Westerly boats was that they were visually challenging.

But then they grew on me...like an acquired taste. Sometimes things can get so ugly that they are beautiful... I began to appreciate how practical and utilitarian they are... Like those old British Land Rovers...not the sleekest looking vehicle on the road...

I did suggest looking at a Renown in another thread...
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3195.msg35025.html#msg35025
...Not to try to persuade anyone to move up to a 31 footer, but to consider a very roomy one if space is a high priority--as a possible alternative to getting a 40-footer.

I'm happy to report that I've never been tempted to get either a Tartan 41 nor a Westerly Conway 36. I suspect that someone could give me either one, and I still could not afford to use it in any kind of sustainable way.

For one thing, both have a draft of about 6 feet and I've read many accounts of areas where that would be very limiting (such as Craig's trip through the Okeechobee Canal where the Ariel's 4-feet was plenty). James Baldwin, in his list of recommended boats, I believe simply rejects anything with a draft over 5 feet.

I think that it is true that many focus a lot on attaining a level of seaworthiness sometimes based on size and myth (as in my case below) and as John has said, cross over a line into unaffordable unsustainability.

I suppose that what these calculators could really use is a way input our wherewithal factors and then spit out a financial-burden misery/fun ratio...    
This takes one back to Craig's quote... ;)

[Jim_ME]

Charlie, that's a good quote.

You know that someone has an economy with words when he can describe the entire ownership experience of a boat in one sentence.  :)

[tomwatt]

Tom, My initial reaction to the Westerly boats was that they were visually challenging.
But then they grew on me...like an acquired taste. Sometimes things can get so ugly that they are beautiful... I began to appreciate how practical and utilitarian they are... Like those old British Land Rovers...not the sleekest looking vehicle on the road...

Odd looking indeed.
But the hull shape (more bird-breasted - broader towards the forward, tapering towards the stern with a flattish underwater profile) was what prompted me towards my "new" boat... has the same basic hull shape, keel obviously different.
I like the Reknown shape/style enough that I could own one and not be embaressed having one at dockside.
However, the boat I truly envy... and although it's fairly large, it doesn't appear so... is this little beauty, a 32' Rossiter Lapwing:

http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/n6947/n6947.htm
Now, if I could only come up with 45,000 pounds and a crew to help me bring it across the pond!

[maxiSwede]

From Kurt's link on the Sharpie, and Matt Layden's chine runners designs, I checked out Sven Yrvind's site www.yrvind.com

Since we haven't had much internet access lately it was a while ago I read his blog, always interesting and thought-provoking.

I do not think he would object it so I quote him here; quite philosophical and very well written I beleive.

THE COMFORT PARADOX

One of the most frequently heard comments? concerning my boat is that it is not comfortable. It is a very true statement. But I design and build boats and go to sea in them not for comfort but because I am curios and the activity gives me pleasure and excitement.

Comfort diminishes activity; lack of activity leads to lack of stimulation, without stimulation you become bored, fat and tired. You get energetic only by using energy, not by resting.

Eating and entertainment work like drugs or borrowed money, they lessens the boredom ordeal momentarily. In the long run they make the situation worse.

Strive on the other hand is painful at first, but as time passes will bring curiosity pleasure and excitement. The problem with that healthy solution is that it is to abstract for most people. Historically man has never had to worry about to much comfort and is therefore not designed to deal with it. On the contrary lack of food and rest has been the problem.

Modern society has changed that. Industrial and farm factories are now producing more than we need. Few free spirits has survived a new species of man has been breed, the obedient man. He eats not real food but ersatz food. His experiences are ersatz screen experiences.

It is so much easier to watch sport than to compete yourself. It is so much easier to do ersatz sailing and to start the engine when the wind fails than to use an oar or wait for wind. But like all ersatz things there is no thing like the real thing.

A captured animal in a zoo is not a happy animal. He tells us that without talking, still he gets plenty of food and good shelter and his life is without danger. Still he would rather bee free.

Modern man in the big cities are like captured animals. We have all the comfort and food we need, still we are bored. But because we live among millions of equally bored people we do not notice the gloom. Only occasionally do we meet a surviving free spirit and wonder why he is so happy. It is not comfort which makes me happy.

written by Sven Yrvind

[Captain Smollett]

Grog for posting "The Comfort Paradox."

Wow.  Great stuff.

[Captain Smollett]

A new appreciation for "small" came to me today.

I have, for practical purposes, completed the arduous task of completely stripping my deck (not cabin) of all paint and primer.  Grinding through the painted on non-skid was slow going.

As I coiled my extension cord and put away my grinder (probably 15+ hours total grinding, and that does not include the sections cut out with a circular saw for recoring), I reflected on how far I'd be on this job if I had a 45 foot "wondercruiser," longer, wider and with beam carried all the way astern.

Uggggh.

We lump all this kind of thing under "maintenance," but that does not count for much until you start doing some serious overhauling.

I think I am within a couple of days starting the 'refinish' stage now that most of the 'stripping' stage is done.

[CharlieJ]

Congrats.

Or like Laura and I- haul, sand paint bottom, splash- three days work.

One gallon bottom paint instead of three per coat!!

Little boats are nice.

[Chattcatdaddy]

"The Comfort Paradox"

Grog for that!

I agree with it 100%. At times when I try to tell others my reason for sailing small simple boats is that I need to be a little uncomfortable to be at my best I just get a crazy look. To be at my best I need to be challenged. Years ago when I played tennis I always would play with better players in order to be challanged and improve my skills i.e. play up to the competition.

[JWalker]

grog fer dat.

[CaptMac]

Small boats are fun, I ran across this video, nice photography http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQNX3OsjJnk&NR=1

[s/v The`]

Here is something I wrote a while back on boat size. 
My loving wife swears to me that size doesn?t matter.  But does it?  I was recently told that my boat is too small.  Living in the boat yard I meet all types: boaters, builders, workers, and dreamers.  We fall somewhere in between the lines.  At a whopping 24 feet with a displacement of 6500lbs, by today?s standards our boat is considered small by any measure.  I recently read an article titled Pocket Cruiser Of The Year.  It was a 38-footer.  I guess our boat is now considered a dinghy.  Our Allegra 24 designed by Fred Bingham has 6?1? standing headroom and four berths.  The shortest, our double, measures 6?5?.  The Roo has a full galley with a two-burner propane stove and oven.  Even though we choose to use a cedar bucket we do have a very nice enclosed head which is small enough to be considered seaworthy but large enough to actually pull your pants down while inside.  With two adults and two dogs this might sound small but it works for us.  Because we are financially challenged there aren?t many boats in our price range to choose from.  Even if we go up to 30? we won?t get much more usable room.  Having such a small boat we can get away with an outboard engine and no marine head.  This leaves us with the usable space of a well-built 30-footer with no prop drag and lighter displacement.  Being of a traditional design but built with modern building techniques and materials, our boat is incredibly strong but lighter and faster than she would appear.  Sure we could sell our boat and put a nice down payment on a larger boat.  Then in 20 years when it is payed off we could spend another three years rebuilding everything on it and sail away.  I would be 62, Lizzie would be 50, and we would have a boat that is older than the one we currently own.

[Oldrig]

Holiday grog to you for that!

The Allegra 24 is a beautiful boat, not speedy, perhaps, but well-designed and very seaworthy. That's what you want!

--Joe

[s/v The`]

Ive since sold her but she was quite fast both in light and heavy wind.  Now I sail a Falmouth cutter which is a bit slower.

[CharlieJ]

Spent a good while one night talking to Fred Bingham about his Allegra designs. The 24 is the smaller one-there was also a 25 and a 26 .

Nice boats.

My Tehani is usually the smallest boat in any anchorage-25 feet, 7 foot beam, she isn't large by any means. Yet, counting our two previous trips to Florida and return, we've cruised her some 10,000 miles since her rebuild.

I wouldn't mind another foot of beam but other than that, she's done whatever we asked. Who could wish for more?

Here at anchor- Pipe Creek, Exumas, Bahamas

[David_Old_Jersey]

I've wondered why Giles would omit the bridge deck, too. Was it because the cabin trunk goes so far aft and the cockpit was small enough that he felt that the cockpit needed the seating area? Did he feel like the Longbow might be fast enough to be more of a racer than the Centaur and would carry a larger racing crew much of the time and needed to maximize cockpit seating? Was the larger boat enough more expensive that it was targeted to older buyers that were more likely to be able to afford it, but to whom a bridge deck and taller ladder inside would present more difficulty climbing over? Would the boat be used more for entertaining and daysailing so that he wanted the cabin and cockpit to be more accessible to each other?

Westerly built/sold 260 Longbows between 1970 and 1980, but 2555 Centaurs in that same period, so it seems safe to say that the bridge deck on the Centaur didn't put buyers off too much. ;) (The Centaur was also smaller and no doubt affordable to a larger market, too.)

The total Westerly build for all 4 derivatives was around 1,000 - Pentland (Bilge Keels & Aft Cabin), Berwick (B/k & Aft cockpit), Renown (Fin keel & Aft cabin) and Longbow (Fin & Aft Cockpit)......I think all of them came in Ketch & Sloop versions.



FWIW I once sailed on a Pentland (not mine) accross the Bay of Biscay (2 days of no wind - day 3 a real hooley!). A really good sea boat and sails a lot better than the caravan looks suggest! As someone said, something of a Landrover - and pretty much a go anywhere boat.



I thought carefully about buying one instead of the Seadog 30 I got (and still have) - around here I need Bilge Keels (for the cheap moorings) and at the time also wanted an aft cabin. I decided against the Pentland as the aft cabin is rather small - and not going to become a double, let alone an  owners cabin. Ideal for kids though.....and storage! (that's become the primary use of mine!).



In the same circumstances again I would probably not bother with an aft cabin so would be looking at a Berwick - probably stick with a Ketch rig though, I just like 'em!





In regard to the Bridge deck, if you look carefully will see that the cockpit sole is raised (4 inches?) at the forward end of the cockpit and a couple of inches more above that for the companionway - so the idea is that unless in a hooley or taking a wave into the cockpit that spray and rain (and the odd dollop of sea!) does not go straight down below. The easy "fix" is putting (and locking in) a single washboard - or a custom DIY version for when the wind and sea is up..........I guess it was a trade off between in port / sunny day use and when in rough weather......and the marketing dept won!

[s/v The`]

Charlie, I am very familiar with you boat, she is a beauty.  Ahh yes an extra foot of beam would be nice.  Ali