Can I afford to Cruise?

[Captain Smollett]

 
;D ;D hehehehehe so I know what to get Captain Smollett  for christmas...hehehe

Haha, grog for the joke.  Another grog if you actually send a box addressed to my wife.  IF you survive...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[hearsejr]

 I'll send you some ..forgetting to put the return addy and my name on the box..lol.

well I was planning to leave in 20 days, to get my boat pulled and fixed up and launched and then start my own cruise. but things just took another turn..for the good this time. I got invited to go sailing up the East Coast, including some blue water,  and some ICW. plus the guy will get me a ticket home and pay the expenses...I just bring my bare essentials, and pull the look out duties, and help with the sails.

[Namaste]

Thank you for the link, Pappy Jack, those were some great videos.  The part where he loses two anchors and just makes a new one by welding scrap rebar made my jaw drop.  He just won't let anything stop him: very inspiring stuff.

Charlie, the canvas bucket looks like another great idea; simple, effective and it folds up to save storage space.  I would like to hear more about your electrical draw.  You said that you only have a 35 Watt panel and that it runs all of your systems.  I am curious what all you are using, onboard.  I've been thinking about buying two 50 Watt panels but I don't plan to run many electrical systems (GPS, VHF, SSB, a stereo and a laptop).  Your post got me thinking that maybe I don't need 100 Watts of solar panels.   I have no experience with solar so I am just going by what I have been able to find online.

I am also curious about the canning.  I don't know anything about it.  What is the shelf life of your canned meats?  Have you ever had problems with the jars breaking while under way?

Capt. Smollett, thank you for explaining Craig's elimination of misery principle.  I fully understood and agreed with every single thing you 'said'.  Craig, you have another EMP adherent.   ;D

You also mentioned the insulation around the ice box.  I will plan to test it out as soon as possible.  Thank you (and Charlie) for the tip about using block ice.  If I can make the ice last for a week (or even five days or so), I am fairly confident that I would be able to get by without refrigeration at all.

Thanks also for the information on anchoring rights in Florida waters.  To be honest, I am very surprised with all of the boat traffic down there that they don't have laws designed to force people into marinas.  Plus, I would think that all the wealthy folks who pay serious money for waterfront property down there would be up in arms about having a 1976 O'day 22' anchored out in front of their mansion for three weeks?

I was surprised by your advice about anchoring out with my wife but once I read it and thought about it, I think you have one heck of a good point.  Is it possible that my wife will feel misled if we start off spending time in marinas, only to leave them behind when we cruise?  If I was her, I certainly might feel that way.  It's funny, I thought that I had this one completely figured out and now I am thinking that I actually might have it all wrong; thank you.

I have been keeping close track of my food costs this entire week and at this point I feel like I can accurately estimate that I spend somewhere between $40 to $50 a week on food and drink.  However, I am crazy about seafood and I am wondering how much catching my own dinner might reduce food costs.  I have not done any sailing in Florida waters so I do not have any firsthand experience on how abundant things like fish, shrimp, crabs and lobsters are down there.  Can you catch enough seafood in Florida that you can use it as a reliable means of supplementing your food costs over the long term? 

[Auspicious]

I am wondering how much catching my own dinner might reduce food costs.

<snip>

Can you catch enough seafood in Florida that you can use it as a reliable means of supplementing your food costs over the long term? 

There is an active personal/recreational crabbing industry in Chesapeake Bay. I can't speak to Florida in that regard, but I would explore the costs of licenses and equipment. It isn't terribly high here in Maryland but is not insignificant. There may be limits on the number of traps you maintain and where you put them, as well as possible conflicts with the commercial watermen.

For fin-fish a lot depends on what gear you already have. Costs for tackle (and again licenses) can add up. I've found that there is art as well as science to catching fish. Unfortunately I am not an artist. *grin* If you are moving around a lot trolling gear using hand lines can be very inexpensive. Rods and reels and assorted gear for fishing from piers, docks, and bridges can add up if you don't restrain yourself.

I will say that one of my crew caught a small tuna on the edge of the Gulf Stream during my last delivery (Ft Lauderdale to Barnaget) that made the better part of two meals for four people. I'm not an artist at filleting and cleaning fish either, so the presentation was a bit lacking but everyone liked it anyway. I broiled one dinner and pan-fried the next.

Think about how you'll prepare the fish you catch and make sure you have that gear. A grill is great at anchor but often not a good idea underway depending on access and boat motion.

If you turn out to be an ace fisherman perhaps you can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong. *grin*

[CharlieJ]

Quote-

" the canvas bucket looks like another great idea; simple, effective and it folds up to save storage space.  I would like to hear more about your electrical draw.  You said that you only have a 35 Watt panel and that it runs all of your systems.  I am curious what all you are using, onboard.  I've been thinking about buying two 50 Watt panels but I don't plan to run many electrical systems (GPS, VHF, SSB, a stereo and a laptop).  Your post got me thinking that maybe I don't need 100 Watts of solar panels.   I have no experience with solar so I am just going by what I have been able to find online."

End quote

Actually we use a 32 watt flexible panel, mounted on top of the bimini. We are energy misers by the way. We also have a Sunsystems charge controller hooked into that.

Most of our interior lights are LED, and we are currently trying to convert ALL our lights to LED.

As to our usage. We run a VHF, a Garmin 72 (or 76) almost always. We also use a small inverter to charge our cellphones ( we both have Iphones) and recharge batteries as needed, such as for our SSB reciever (no transmitter)

We also run a Navico TP 300 tiller pilot occasionally, but we also use sheet to tiller.

On the usage- normally onboard we're in bed, and asleep just after dark, and usually up at first light, so we use little electricity for lighting . Now if we are anchored somewhere for a few days, that might change. But we can both read books we have downloaded to the Iphones, so little light is needed there.

We simply don't use much. In a year onboard, we plugged into shore power to recharge once. We did spend almost two VERY cold weeks in Punta Gorda, plugged into shore power, running a heater full blast, 24/7. But that was unusual, since we rarely stay in marinas.


Quote-

"I am also curious about the canning.  I don't know anything about it.  What is the shelf life of your canned meats?  Have you ever had problems with the jars breaking while under way"

End quote

Shelf life is several years at least, as long as the jar is still holding it's seal (lid depressed) And no, we've never had a broken jar. Laura took some of my old socks and stuffs a jar into one, twists, restuffs, twists again, until the sock is used up. We stow the empties in the same sock, and in the same locker, so it's always  full- no rattling around.

Someone asked earlier about procedures for canning. Laura uses a large pressure cooker, and cans at 15 pounds pressure. Meats must be under pressure for about 75 minutes, and yes, she does it aboard.

If you will google "canning meats" you'll find lots of info.

Also look here at this post I made on Sailfar some time ago (wow- a year ago!!) about this- it has pics showing her jars-

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2826.0.html

[Captain Smollett]

Thanks also for the information on anchoring rights in Florida waters.  To be honest, I am very surprised with all of the boat traffic down there that they don't have laws designed to force people into marinas.  Plus, I would think that all the wealthy folks who pay serious money for waterfront property down there would be up in arms about having a 1976 O'day 22' anchored out in front of their mansion for three weeks?

That's what started the whole brouhaha, along with a bunch of abandoned boats.  The legal fight continues.

See Claiborne Young's Site for some updates.

I cannot find the link right now, but just a day or two ago, I was reading an 'article' online that said that SOME people might be getting less hassle from LE types at anchor if they have a copy of the law aboard to show them.  Of course, that's not REQUIRED.

In any case, it's still a mess down there.

I was surprised by your advice about anchoring out with my wife but once I read it and thought about it, I think you have one heck of a good point.  Is it possible that my wife will feel misled if we start off spending time in marinas, only to leave them behind when we cruise?  If I was her, I certainly might feel that way.  It's funny, I thought that I had this one completely figured out and now I am thinking that I actually might have it all wrong; thank you.

I don't think you can have it all "wrong."  You know yourself and your wife and what is best for you.

My only point was that if the boat is "hers" as well as yours, anchoring may be less 'scary' or 'uncomfortable.'  If she has indicated that she is apprehensive about anchoring out, try to find out why.  It MAY have nothing to do with being anchored or tied to a dock...but the dock might be a crutch that softens the issue.

I keep saying "may" and "might" because I don't KNOW...she may HATE anchoring out.  I do know that my wife did not want to anchor out her very first time spending the night on the boat, but after that "trial period," she was game.

She was 5 months pregnant the first time we anchored out, and it got into the 20's (with no heat on board).  Sweet memories...   ;D ;D

She does not bat an eye about anchoring out now.

Some things are FAR easier tied to a dock in a marina:  provisioning, watering, significant repairs or modifications, etc.  I kept my boat at anchor for 18 months (did not live aboard, but was there a lot); dinghying ashore for EVERYTHING is extra work, but it can be done.

Completing a rough-ish (as in tiring) passage and arriving at the anchorage exhausted can be tough, too.  You are already very tired and you have to properly and safely anchor the boat.  Then, say you need to go ashore for something....get the dink ready, perhaps rowing.  I can see why SOME folks balk against anchoring out...staying in a marina is EASIER.

But as we say on this site, the easy way in the short term is often not the BEST way in the long term (financially, spiritually, etc).  Anchoring out will in general be cooler, it's definitely cheaper, can be more private, and well, the folks you meet in an anchorage are different from the ones you meet in marinas.  The 'marina crowd' contains a higher percentage of folks that don't really GO anywhere at all on their boats, whereas the anchor-out crowd will be more like what you hear about as 'cruisers.'

So, even if you begin your cruising by staying at marinas, you never really have the fullest flavor of cruising until you anchor out, in terms of the locations and the people you meet.

And hey, people just LOOK AT and TREAT you differently when you row ashore in a dinghy from an anchored boat.   ;D ;D

All that said, again, it's about what is right for you and your wife.  All the pluses *I* mention are pluses for US...and you might find things completely different.

[Captain Smollett]

A couple of posts in this thread might be useful here, too.

[CharlieJ]

Laura and I cruised the entire Florida coast in 2009- 2010, from Pensacola around to Fernandina, including Marathon. We had absolutely zero hassles from ANYONE concerning our anchoring. We did have ( and still carry) a copy of the law on board, but never needed it. We even anchored for two nights off Marco Island, which is where the big "can't anchor here" brouhaha started. Not a flicker of interest from any law enforcement type.

The Florida Legislature, in a new law passed in 2008 or 09, classified boats as "live-aboards" or "In transits". Cities can and still will most likely, control the "live-aboards".. And I can understand that. I've seen some pretty ratty looking "live-aboards". But the other category is where we ( and all the rest of you) would fall- In transit. They aren't allowed to restrict your anchoring EXCEPT where they have set up a mooring field. Then you cannot just anchor within that field. You can still anchor someplace OUTSIDE the field, if there is room. And actually, we found the city run ( or county run) moorings to be convenient, practical and inexpensive (for the most part). Vero Beach was a bit more expensive than most, but not exorbitant. Usual fees were in the $10-$12 per day range and usually came with dinghy dockage and one pumpout a week. Most had cheaper weekly and or monthly rates.

Stuart had a day room, free showers, and loaner bikes for mooring customers. Hard to beat that.

As for fishing- a non resident Florida license costs $47 per person per year. If you are to be in Florida for a while, that's pretty cheap. A Texas resident saltwater license is $33 per year.  But I sure wouldn't count on feeding myself with seafood caught by me.. I'm a serious, long time fisherman here at home, having two different boats to fish from (separate from the sailboats) and probably 40 or more rods and reels ( I know, I know, but some of them are 45 years old, or more ;D )

Problem is, you are new in an area and don't know where or how the fish there get caught. Or even what to try for. Generic methods certainly work, and we had the occasional fish dinner, but counting on them would not have worked.

Even in the Bahamas, using both pole spear while snorkeling, and fishing rods, we enjoyed some seafood. Caught and ate lots of conch. But the main meals STILL were from ships stores.

Fish for fun, eat what you catch, but plan to feed yourself via the grocery store.

[Captain Smollett]

as well as possible conflicts with the commercial watermen.

This is a very good point.

Perhaps one should not overlook supporting the local watermen.

We have a 'local' catch market with seafood prices one third that in the grocery store.  For example, shrimp is about $5 / lb vs $12-15 / lb at Food Lion.


You can get 'em even cheaper buying right off the boat.

[CharlieJ]

And excellent point John. We bought shrimp right off the boats while docked in Ocean Springs Miss, for $2 pound. And Laura bought a fresh snapper from the fishermen next to the marina in Isla Mujeres, for about 30-40 pesos . Less than $4.00.

[Jim_ME]

I recently read this article...
"Important -- Florida Anchoring Rights Struggle Enters Next Phase"
Posted by Claiborne | Posted on 03-01-2011
http://cruisersnet.net/51696/

In which she writes about her concern about proposed no-anchor buffer zones around the municipal mooring fields, that may be large enough to prevent cruisers in transit from anchoring in these harbors outside the fields, as they have been.

This seems like a potentially serious threat to the kind of cruising and anchoring many currently do. It seems to me that, as in many areas, when traditional rights are encroached upon, then it is easy to get out onto a slippery slope...

I haven't read up thoroughly on this issue, but will post this anyway.

-Jim

[tomwatt]

I wanted to chime in regarding food purchases... if you eat as "the locals" do, chances are (unless you're anchored at the local Yacht Club) you'll get a chance to explore some interesting tastes as well as eat fairly cheaply. The year my family and I lived in Hawai'i, we ate "local" in an otherwise high-priced economy and did quite well. e.g. milk and dairy we avoided, as someone pointed out that there are only so many cows on an island so milk becomes scarce.
And ditto on supporting the local watermen... sometimes a catch purchased right off the dock can be downright cheap!

[Jim_ME]

I posted the information on the no-anchoring buffer zone and the link, since Charlie, you had mentioned that you and Laura had been able to anchor outside of the municipal mooring fields on his cruise. Didn't know whether you were aware of the buffer-zone issue. It was news to me. I don't know if a distance for the zones has been set, but some seem to think that it could be surprisingly large.

I enjoyed reading James and Rachel's S/V Further blog about having anchored outside of the mooring field at Boot Key Harbor in Marathon, and found a creative way around the ($10/day?) dinghy dock fee. We know that it's not possible to cruise on $300 per month and spend $300 for a mooring.

Although these issues may indeed be discussed in other forums, I'm especially interested in the perspective of SailFar cruisers--which includes many minimalist and frugal cruisers who may be more adversely affected by anchoring restrictions than the more big-budget cruisers found on the other forums.

I'm quite a long distance away, but had eyed the Florida Keys in general and Boot Key Harbor in particular as a possible destination for winter trailer sailing/cruising.   I used to check the live webcam at the harbor to help stoke the dream. My concern is that if these kinds of restrictions continue to expand, it is going to be difficult to have the kind of cruising experience that CJ/Laura and James/Rachel have had, and that would be sad. So for me at least it is a practical issue, and a philosophical one.

[CharlieJ]

Actually the dinghy dock fee in Boot Key is a tad over 6.50 per day if you pay weekly ($45 week). That gets you a key to the showers, access to the washers/dryers, access to the day room (and free wifi)  and one pump out per week, so it's really pretty reasonable. Marathon (and Boot Key Harbor) is really a quite cruiser friendly place. There's much room outside the mooring fields for anchoring. They only have 260 moorings, and when we were there there were about 450 boats in boot Key, plus those in the creek and anchored on the outside. BIG boats anchor outside by the way.

I wouldn't be concerned about spending time in Boot Key.

[Jim_ME]

I have heard others say the same, that it is pretty reasonable, as moorings go, and cruiser friendly, as you say. For some of the seriously minimalist cruisers, though, even that is out of reach. I was also thinking that it would be a nice option to anchor outside the mooring field if money got tight or if the moorings are all taken for some period of time.

Of course, Further draws only 2'-6"? and can sit on the bottom if needed, so has an advantage in finding a spot outside a mooring area.

My concern after reading the article by Clairborne, was that such a buffer-zone around the mooring field would be added at Boot Key Harbor (and the other municipal mooring areas) under the "next phase", and that anchoring nearby as you have been able to previously do would no longer be allowed.

[Namaste]

I read that article and I feel for both sides.

I can see why a person who threw down a couple of mil on a nice waterfront mansion would be angry to have some dude in a late model O'day 22 anchored out behind his house for 5 months.

I can also see why cruisers are upset since these communities are clearly trying to abuse these 'exclusion zones' to get around the ruling that they lost on anchor rights.

It seems to me that there has to be a reasonable compromise here, somewhere.  I just feel that these communities are punishing all cruisers because of a few jerks.

I also don't like the method they are using.  They say that they need these 'exclusion zones' as a means of ensuring that people use moorings.  However, if this is the case then it seems to me that cities could also outlaw all free parking spaces within 20 miles of every parking meter.  No community would except that.

When I get down to the boat in a few weeks, I will try to make it to one of these meetings and provide a first-hand report on the proceedings.

[Captain Smollett]

When I get down to the boat in a few weeks, I will try to make it to one of these meetings and provide a first-hand report on the proceedings.

That'd be cool.  Our SailFar Reporter on the scene.   ;D

One way to combat this sort of thing is to vote with the dollars....*IF* the community in question has any kind of tourism basis to the local economy at all.  I might not break their bank, but at least I can put my $$ into communities that WANT me there.  That's a very personal approach, though, I guess.

One reason I find a lot of this aggravating is that a few bad apples spoil the bunch.  Most cruisers are decent people; most liveaboard in the marina are decent people.  One or two 'bad apples' tarnishes the reputation of all us.

I wish these communities would recognize that, and go after particular behaviors that they don't like rather than painting all boaters with the same brush.  I don't think the McMansion owner cares about you being anchored out in your O'Day for ANY period of time...provided your boat is clean and generally well kept and you conduct yourself as a decent, good neighbor should.

There may be exceptions...there may be home owners that DO give a rat about 'the view being THEIRS,' but I think most of them probably just want folks in their AO to be well-behaved.  They paid a certain amount of money to live in a neighborhood that they knew and trusted, and yet here are these passerby that do all sorts of 'interesting' things.  We are already "outcasts" in many people's minds, and it does not help that some folks living aboard play into the worst stereotypes.

We cannot operate our boats (even dinks) intoxicated, play loud music from out speakers, run generators all hours of the night, stand naked on the deck at 7 am every morning just cuz we CAN, speak with foul, uncouth language when ashore and generally act like the water is OURS exclusively and expect the people who LIVE THERE to accept it.  It's the same anywhere - Florida or a foreign country - it is our responsibility to treat the 'locals' with respect since we are visiting their HOME.

Given what I have seen in "boater behavior" in the past, say 4 years or so, I think there's a reason the land owners are fighting back.  There are just enough boaters behaving poorly.  As I said, I wish they'd single THEM out, and leave the 99% of the rest alone, free to anchor in peace (without even a supposition of "you are WRONG" til proven otherwise) and be on their way.

So yes, the boaters have the responsibility to respect that they are essentially in the "home" of the landowner, but so too the landowner should respect that that boater is his guest.  If one guest is behaving badly, throw HIM out...not the whole party.  At least that's the way I see it.

[CharlieJ]

The difference perhaps between this-



and this?



One of the reasons I really can't blame the cities for wanting to do SOMETHING!!

[tomwatt]

holy pacheeto!

May I request a renaming ceremony for that boat?
From "cumulus" to something more appropriate like...
"accumulate"
or
"aggregate"
or maybe
"where's the trailer park?"

[s/v Faith]

Yes, I can just hear the wife... looking down from her condo saying to her husband...

"Look at that, they think they can just stay here... look at that mess of all that fabric up on the front like that... they sure are messy".....

;D