Cockpit Locker Lids

[Captain Smollett]

So, one of the last BIG projects I need to undertake in terms of stopping leaks is replacement/redesign of the cockpit locker lids.

At first I was looking at just repairing the existing set-up with ideas from the one of the Bingham books, but I've decided to just go with a more modern (and hopefully more watertight) design.

This is what I'm thinking about doing:



It looks easy enough to construct; the hardest part (for me) will be to fit it into the existing opening.

and, I plan to secure them with these:



One fellow around here said when he did his new cockpit locker lids, he constructed them off-boat and then just glassed them into place.  I don't know yet if this will be easier in my case, but I'm thinking about it.

Any comments on this design for a locker lid, pro or con?  Is there an even better design?

[s/v Faith]

First John,  I think you are spot on with doing this.  One of the features I have never liked was the flat wooden cockpit locker lids.

  IIRC, the knife edge is pretty much made up where the wooden locker lids sit (right)?

What about cutting plywood that would exactly sit on the edge of the 'knife edge' you have.  cover it with wax paper, and then lay up cloth in alternate directions on top of it... with excess hanging down the side.  If you really want to be fancy, you could even put a thin (3/8"?) foam core in it.

  Trim the excess overhang, and fair for fit.  You could even place a couple of 'H' shaped ribs on the bottom to make it uber strong.

  Good luck!

[Capt. Tony]

Have you had the chance to peruse boat guru James Baldwin's site?  There is a write-up posted there in which he converted a quarter berth on a Columbia but it also adressed a cockpit locker lid.  I'll grant you that Mr. Baldwin has an uncanny way of making things look easy but I think this is something you can do.  It's just epoxy, cloth and wood. 

I think this is the link.  http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/CockpitLocker.htm

[Captain Smollett]

First John,  I think you are spot on with doing this.  One of the features I have never liked was the flat wooden cockpit locker lids.

  IIRC, the knife edge is pretty much made up where the wooden locker lids sit (right)?

What about cutting plywood that would exactly sit on the edge of the 'knife edge' you have.  cover it with wax paper, and then lay up cloth in alternate directions on top of it... with excess hanging down the side.  If you really want to be fancy, you could even put a thin (3/8"?) foam core in it.

  Trim the excess overhang, and fair for fit.  You could even place a couple of 'H' shaped ribs on the bottom to make it uber strong.

  Good luck!

Hmmm.  There is presently no knife edge either on the cockpit itself or on the lid.  Compound that with the fact that wood gutter channel is rotted completely and well, there may as well not be a lid on there anyway.



You can see there is no drip edge letting water drip into the gutter (if it were intact), so the water just wicks inside the lid and the reinforcing acts as the drip edge.

One stupid question about angling the bottom of the gutters toward the cockpit...if the boat is heeling, this does not good at all on the lee side, so is there really a point in doing it anyway?

The picture I showed in the above post has the gutters thus angled, but as I think about it, I wonder if it is an unnecessary complication.  The Bigham design I mention used a piece of (copper?) pipe as the last stage of the gutter, and it was also angled, but again, is there really a benefit?

[Bubba the Pirate]

Your first photo is very much like the cockpit locker lids that are on my Cape Dory.  The lids of which I have to replace [long sad story].

It is my completely unschooled opinion that you DO want a little angle on the drainage canals if for no other reason that to encourage that they dry out once the boat is flat.  Also, in my fiberglass and plastics tooling experience, if you go for exactly level, you may end up with a slight lean outboard which would collect water.  If you go for some degree of drain to the cockpit, you'll likely end up with something at least level, but probably drain-able.  

As always, ymmv.  :)


PS: if you follow Capt. Tony's link to Atom Voyages' page, look at the finished locker lid picture.  His hardware is different from the one you showed, but the same as mine.  It has a bit of a cam action that flips to snap. It would seem that this latch would be more likely to pull down on your gaskets that a simple hasp.  Perhaps more watertight. ???
Todd

[Captain Smollett]

Have you had the chance to peruse boat guru James Baldwin's site? 

I have looked at James' site many times and that particular page before.  For whatever reason, though, my mind did not quite grasp how he did that lid/drainage assembly.

As I looked at it again today (thanks Tony for the link), it finally soaked in...and truthfully, I REALLY like that approach.  This is in essence just rebuilding my gutters, which I had thought about doing, but then decided I wanted the "other" approach.  I finally saw some of the details I need to make it work (I think...still pondering).

His hardware is different from the one you showed, but the same as mine.  It has a bit of a cam action that flips to snap. It would seem that this latch would be more likely to pull down on your gaskets that a simple hasp.  Perhaps more watertight.

I'm game for a 'better' latch.  Do you happen to know the source of those latches?

My criteria:

(1) must be able to SECURE in the closed position without a separate lock of any kind
(2) should be able to lock with a padlock
(3) closure action to pull extra compression on the lid gasket is a BIG plus.

Of course, with those that I showed, I could mount the back of the hasp in such a position that I have to torque down on the lid pretty tightly to get it closed...maybe?

[Oldrig]

I'm game for a 'better' latch.  Do you happen to know the source of those latches?

Jamestown Distributors seems to have a similar latch:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12174&familyName=Seafarer+Anti-Rattle+Door+Fastener

FWIW, the lids on my cockpit lockers are one of several sources of leaks; I've been planning to put some kind of gaskets on them since I bought the boat. Maybe someday I actually will.

Good luck!

--Joe

[CharlieJ]

John- did you ever visit Graham and look at the plans we were talking about? I'd definitely have the slant forward on the guttering by the way.

[Jim_ME]

John, I've got a similar project ahead with the Snapdragon 26, since both cockpit locker covers are missing. There are only a couple pieces of rough plywood placed over the openings now.

One of my previous Dutch-built boats had an interesting "latch" system. The cockpit cover/hatch had an eye glassed into the underside, with a line tied to it. The line passed through another eye below it that was attached to the inner cockpit well side and then run forward and through a hole in the cabin bulkhead where a cleat was mounted and on which it could be tied off. It was just inside the companionway. I thought that it was a clever low-tech arrangement, and there was no hardware to dig into the back of your leg as you sat in the cockpit, or to catch a shin or sheet on. When the companionway was locked, so were both hatches.

There was a similar line that held the lazarette hatch down--it was cleated in the aft end and just inside the cockpit locker.  

[Captain Smollett]

I'm game for a 'better' latch.  Do you happen to know the source of those latches?

Jamestown Distributors seems to have a similar latch:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12174&familyName=Seafarer+Anti-Rattle+Door+Fastener

FWIW, the lids on my cockpit lockers are one of several sources of leaks; I've been planning to put some kind of gaskets on them since I bought the boat. Maybe someday I actually will.

Good luck!

--Joe

Thanks for the link, but those are chrome plated brass (and get poor customer reviews even for an interior application).  I like the concept, but will prefer a material better suited the application.  Knowing the general idea, though, I can shop for something suitable.

One of my previous Dutch-built boats had an interesting "latch" system. The cockpit cover/hatch had an eye glassed into the underside, with a line tied to it. The line passed through another eye below it that was attached to the inner cockpit well side and then run forward and through a hole in the cabin bulkhead where a cleat was mounted and on which it could be tied off. It was just inside the companionway. I thought that it was a clever low-tech arrangement, and there was no hardware to dig into the back of your leg as you sat in the cockpit, or to catch a shin or sheet on. When the companionway was locked, so were both hatches.

Thanks, Jim.  I have read about that technique and do find it quite intriguing.  One thing I don't like about it, and this may well be overthinking on my part, but I don't like the idea of having to go inside the boat to be able to get the locker open.

-- Offshore, or heck, even underway locally, I want them dogged down, 'unable' to open ...

-- So, I'd have to run to the companionway to uncleat the line.  In rough conditions, this might mean opening the hatch and removing the hatch boards to get to the cleat.  That takes time and in the case of rain or spray, exposes the interior of the boat to water intrusion unnecessarily.  I think on-watch crew should be able to do most "running the boat itself" tasks (ie, not get snacks, grab a warmer jacket, etc) from above without having to breach the "sanctity" of the cabin.

-- I like the idea of having the bulkheads between cockpit and cabin solid and completely watertight.  Having a hole for a line to slide in and out comprises that I would think.  On this point, I should mention that I am moving this boat toward being a collection of watertight compartments.

Still, though, I concede that it is a neat idea and solves a lot of problems. 

Also, I surely welcome counterpoints to my points above...

[Jim_ME]

Thanks, Jim.  I have read about that technique and do find it quite intriguing.  One thing I don't like about it, and this may well be overthinking on my part, but I don't like the idea of having to go inside the boat to be able to get the locker open.

-- Offshore, or heck, even underway locally, I want them dogged down, 'unable' to open ...

-- So, I'd have to run to the companionway to uncleat the line.  In rough conditions, this might mean opening the hatch and removing the hatch boards to get to the cleat.  That takes time and in the case of rain or spray, exposes the interior of the boat to water intrusion unnecessarily.  I think on-watch crew should be able to do most "running the boat itself" tasks (ie, not get snacks, grab a warmer jacket, etc) from above without having to breach the "sanctity" of the cabin.

-- I like the idea of having the bulkheads between cockpit and cabin solid and completely watertight.  Having a hole for a line to slide in and out comprises that I would think.  On this point, I should mention that I am moving this boat toward being a collection of watertight compartments.

Still, though, I concede that it is a neat idea and solves a lot of problems.  

Also, I surely welcome counterpoints to my points above...

You're welcome John. It was a standard feature in the Contest sailboats, which were high quality and designed for the (rough and cold) North Sea. When I got the boat it was about 20 years old with the original setup, so no previous owner had changed it. It seemed a bit unusual, but it never created a problem for me.

The line was at most 1/4", and it was contained within the cockpit locker, so the hole through the bulkhead was from within the locker, not exposed. The cleat was just within the companionway, so could be reached from the cockpit.

[Jim_ME]

Here's a photo of a sisterboat showing the line and cleat just over the galley sink.

[Jim_ME]

This is off topic, but since it is in the photo...let me mention what I thought was another handy feature. The cabin extends back past the inboard motor, which has that cover that serves as a step and a galley/nav station seat. This arrangement provided excellent access to the motor (see sisterboat photo).

[Oldrig]

Thanks for the link, but those are chrome plated brass (and get poor customer reviews even for an interior application).  I like the concept, but will prefer a material better suited the application.  Knowing the general idea, though, I can shop for something suitable.

I agree, this is not the latch that I would recommend. My Cape Dory has bronze ones, but I can't seem to find them. Spartan Marine, the successor to Cape Dory, still makes most of the hardware on those boats, but I couldn't find the locker latch in their online catalog.

Let us know if you find them.

--Joe

[Jim_ME]

I've been thinking about this latch question...  I wanted to share that design using a line, because it was different and elegant in its simplicity in some respects. I like the designer and perhaps the Dutch sensibility that the most practical and perhaps beautiful hardware is one that can be eliminated.

It worked well enough for my purposes that I never considered changing it. Usually, I would open the companionway and untie the cockpit line so that the lid was normally able to be opened from the cockpit. If I found myself in conditions that were rough enough to be concerned, I could lash it down.

Yet, if I was starting from scratch I'm not sure that I would use that design. My sailing was local and coastal type where I could usually choose the weather conditions under which I'd sail. Making long passages where you must take the weather you get, so making the boat capable of surviving potential extreme conditions, is definitely another matter.

[Tim]

My Ariel used the same system for cockpit lids except the line went into the motor-well lazerette and was jam cleated there. I would have probably kept them except I am sealing it off for fumes.

So I too am looking for the perfect latch!  :)

[Capt. Tony]

I don't know how it would stack up against the 'perfect latch' standard but check out Laura and Charlie's cockpit latches.  Or...er Tehani's latches, I guess.  They are brass and have a bit of a cam to them for a snug, rattle free lid.  If I recall correctly you can even run a pad-lock through the handle.

[CapnK]

The Ariel uses a fairly standard locker lid design; starts flat in the seat area with a inner lip on the footwell edge bent 90 degrees to vertical. The 3 other, upper edges of the locker are guttered to allow drainage. There is no real seal to prevent water ingress, although I imagine an easy one would be to put a layer of adhesive-backed foam in place. The gutters handle spray and rain just fine, but if the boat were to get pooped and the cockpit filled, then quite a bit of water could get into the lockers.

Just wondering if anyone has seen a good highly water-resistant locker lid design, something beside glassing the originals shut and mounting large hatches?

[CharlieJ]

Tehani has the same design- a gutter around and a raised edge. I added foam stick on tape under the lid where it contacts the edge, and it has worked well, including at times when the waves were splashing up and soaking the UNDER SIDE of the bimini.

Of course I have cushions on the cockpit seats also, which do divert a good bit of water in themselves.

[Capt. Tony]

Charlie,
Doesn't Tehani also have some nice latches to secure her cockpit lockers?  I'm pretty sure the foam seal and latch idea on Ariel113 was stolen directly from a CD of photos you sent me a few years back.  And I just gotta say, I really like the locker you installed in the cockpit sole as well.