Power: Solar, wind, lights, towed....???

[skylark]

i have a single bank of batteries (two batteries total).

Sorry I read this and thought your intent was to create a single battery bank. 

I have a single battery bank however my motor is a pull start outboard so I don't need redundancy.  Your situation may be different.

[Lynx]

Adriftatsea - I bought a cheep one, the next one was 3x $$$

[s/v Faith]

FWIW,

  I just responded to a post on another board about flexable panels.  I do not recall if I had shared this here... but in case I did not here is a quote of that post.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would highly recommend you avoid the Sunlinq 25w foldable panels.

There used to be another brand of 'flexible' panels that were removed from the US market (I believe it was removed for liability issues, something about overheating). I searched for some time for a pair, but settled on a pair of Sunlinq 25w panels.

I had them on top of my Bimini where they fit nicely. The problem was that I noticed very little (a few hundred ma) increase in my charging. I tried several tests, connecting one at a time, making sure there was no shading, etc. Nothing I did got the output to more then 300ma.... as verified with a DMM. I even tried running them into a load (in case the low output was related to charging issues since the batteries internal resistance stays higher in a nearly charged battery... yada yada yada...) No joy.

I installed them prior to crossing to the Bahamas, and did not want to pay shipping to send them back. The seller (alt-energy.org) accepted them back after I returned. They did not fess up to having reports of problems with them, but did not act surprised that I had low output from them.

I noticed after my return that West marine had picked up Sunlinq and was selling them in their stores.

I would avoid these panels.

[vinegarj]

If I wire up my two 12 volt batteries as one bank, will a 5 watt solar panel be enough of a trickle charge to keep them healthy through the off-season (assuming I put them to bed in a fully charged state)?

[AdriftAtSea]

It depends on the type of battery—agm, gel, wetcell—and how large the batteries are.

AGM batteries have very low self-discharge rates, and basically don't really need to be charged over the off-season, provided they're fully charged to begin with.  Gels are very voltage sensitive, and I'm not  big fan of them, and using a solar panel to trickle charge them is less than ideal, since an unregulated solar panel can boil off the gel electrolyte on them. 

Wet cell batteries do self discharge and depending on the temperature, can do so at a rate of up to 1% per day. 

As an example:  if you have two Group 31 batteries connected in parallel, the bank size is about 250-280 amp-hours.  Assuming a .5% discharge rate, since it will be the off-season and in theory cooler than high-summer.... you're looking at 1.3-1.5 amp-hours or so per day. 

A 5W solar panel generates .37 amps at 13.4 VDC, which is about what the float charge on a 12 VDC battery.  This amperage figure is a bit high, since most solar panels are higher voltage and lower amperage, and it is the amperage that is more important, since any excess voltage is dissipated as heat.  On average a solar panel provides full charge for about five hours a day, but less so in winter, when the days are shorter.  Figure about 3.5 hours at .37 amps, which is about 1.3 Amp-hours... not accounting for losses... so no, it probably isn't going to be big enough for a two-Group 31 battery bank, but might work for two Group 24s.

IMHO, you would probably want a 10-15 Watt panel instead, but it depends on the size of your battery bank. 

I hope this helps.

[vinegarj]

thanks for the info, explanation.  excellent.  my batteries are group 27, wet cells.   

[mrbill]

I have a cigarete lighter outlet at my main electrical panel just inside the hatch. I use it  to recharge small devices like cell phones, or with a small inverter with a cigarette lighter plug,  I can run some small load 120V things like a laptop computer.

If I had a solar panel that had a cigarette adapter plug on the end, could I charge my batteries going backward through the lighter?

[s/v Faith]

Bill,

  yes, you can.  With 2 considerations.  First, you need to consider the current, make sure the wiring is rated for the current the panel will supply.  I doubt this will be much of a consideration, since most solar panels that would come with a cigarette lighter plug are pretty low output 'maintenance' type panels.  They generally don't require any kind of regulator, and are rarely more then 20w.

  The second consideration is the current you will loose through the resistance that is typical of this type of connector.  I have several aboard Faith, and the one I have in the cockpit has been replaced several times due to the corrosion.  I only buy the better quality ones, but they only last so long in a salt water environment.  A little but of corrosion will add a fair amount of resistance, and can decrease the output of the panel considerably.

  That said, I doubt you will have any real problem using that outlet.

FWIW, the Sunlink panels marketed by WM come with a lighter plug, but they are ABSOLUTE garbage and should be avoided.  I will merge this into the solar power thread, and you will be able to read more about them there.


 

[AdriftAtSea]

One other problem you may or may not have, depending on the size of your battery bank and your solar panel, is the risk of frying your batteries.  If the panels output is more than 10% of the battery bank size, you probably want to run the panel through a charge controller.

[mrbill]

I single hand 99% of the time, and as a result I am using a auto-tiller 24/7 (when I can't do sheet-to-tiller steering). That combined with radar (especially at night and when sleeping), nav lights, GPS, and other incidental electricity uses, I can suck my batteries dry in 24 hours, even if I run the engine a bit.

My goal is to add a few amps during the day when I am sailing or on a lay over day in a harbor, not trickle charge to maintain batteries when I'm away from the boat.

[skylark]

This should do it for you:

http://store.solar-electric.com/poup20wa12vo.html
+
http://store.solar-electric.com/sg-4.html

[s/v Faith]

  Rose and I were going for a sail yesterday and I dropped the Tohatsu into the well.  I did my pre-start routine and noticed the wires had pulled out of the DC connector.

  I can remember repairing this set up several times.  It has been used with the Yamama, the Suzuki, and now with the Tohatsu.  It is the same old goofy connector that is sold by most every marine supplier.  Sea dog markets one, I believe that Anchor sells the same connector.  It is a round plug with 2 brass pins that are sized so it can not be plugged in wrong.

  I have tried tinning the wires, wrapping the assembly in good heat shrink, dieelectric grease, even once encased the connector in a waterproof box for a while.

  Nothing has worked.  Of course it has a hard life with it necessary life in the Lazy-rat.

  I have looked at other connectors and found nothing I am happy with.  The 'Cigarette lighter' plug (even the good ones) corrode and jar loose.  I use one for my anchor light outlet and it is strictly a below decks item IMHO.

  There is the plug made for the trolling motors.... the two sides of the plug are something like $50... and it looks like a not so boat friendly designed piece IMHO.  (big body, little protection for terminals, bulky...)

  OTher then studs and brass thumb screws I am at a loss to figure this one out.

  Anyone found a decent DC connector>? (that does not cost $50).


Also,

 

The connectors I used for my solar panels were the three-prong twist-lock electric trolling motor connectors.  They're very heavy duty, and I have the third wire setup so I can use them as exterior accessory outlets, when I'm not using them for the solar panels.  I changed out the cord plug on a 12V hand held spotlight with one of the connectors.  Of the three pins, one is a ground, one is +12VDC power, and the last one is to the solar panel charger bus. 

Dan,

  How have these "MARINCO
ConnectPro Trolling Motor Plug & Receptacle connectors" held up?  Have you had any corrosion on them>?



  I am having a tough time with the idea of a $50 connector....  :P

Thanks,

[Tim]

I went through the same search when I put the charging coil on my Honda 5 for the Potter. I ended up just using the quality cigarette lighter plug.
Have you looked at the trailer light plugs like this?



Or is that the one you were speaking of? ::)

[s/v Faith]

I went through the same search when I put the charging coil on my Honda 5 for the Potter. I ended up just using the quality cigarette lighter plug.
Have you looked at the trailer light plugs like this?



Or is that the one you were speaking of? ::)

That looks like what I have been using.

  How is the cigarette lighter plug working for you?  I bought one of those fancy ones at the Boaters World clearance, and will upgrade to it for the anchor light.  I would love to hear yours is working well in for what I want to use it for.

[Tim]

The plug works fine for me, but my use is probably very different than yours. On my Potter it only goes on when I am out cruising in a place like Desolation sound where the sun don't shine but the motor doth run.
Otherwise it is disconnected at both ends and stored. Rarely has it seen any weather or sun.

[Auspicious]

Have you looked at Anderson Powerpoles? They aren't exactly "marine" but are used in a lot of nasty conditions in emergency communications. Take a look at http://www.ocraces.org/powerpole.html for the "standard" ham radio configuration. With a little Googling you should be able to find them for about 10USD / half-dozen if I remember right.

[s/v Faith]

Jeff,

 I hope you don't mind my replying to your PM here on the forum.  The combined opinions of many beats the opinion of one.... at least mostly.  

 The energy question is one that will vary more by the Sailor and territory then by the boat (IMHO).

 The 'Energy budget' is a useful tool to build your energy system around, and to manage your use once you are underway.

 Can you really afford to run your laptop as a backup navigation system like some hope to do?  The energy budget (once validated) separates fact from fiction.... (not unless you have a lot of capacity!)

 The energy budget is an estimate of how much energy you are likely to use in a day.  You will need to oversize this, as there will be times you exceed the budget, and you should not plan to discharge your storage bank below 50% capacity or you will shorten it's life.

...Do you have any recommendations for solar panels, wind generators, and or gensets? I purchased a 245ah agm 8d battery(What do you have?). I will be running a blower, bilge, nav and cabin lights, vhf, ssb, Raymarine E80 series superpack...plotter, depth sounder and such. Also a laptop and possibly a weather fax. Would that battery be enough or do I need more power? I am trying to design my electrical system to be streamlined for cruising, including a monitoring system, which one i have no idea. A charging system that includes solar, wind, and alternator. I want to set up for shore power with an inverter, but if that's too much then I'll wait. How do you have your system set, is it working well for you?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Jeff

 Take all of your electronic gear and look for the published current draw.  I put mine into a spread sheet and estimated the time in two categories, underway and on the hook.

 Multiply the amps x the time expected and you will get the amp hours.

One 500ma anchor light burning from dusk to dawn (~12 hours) = 6 amp hours (ah).

 Be very suspicious of some energy use claims.  Your Laptop is a power hog (unless one of the new netbook's do a search for real numbers).

Let's say your laptop running through the inverter draws 8 amps.  If you use it for 4 hours (check email, look at a chart, re-load the Ipod, and watch a DVD).  There went 32 amp hours.

 Some devices are going to be on pretty much all the time.  The VHF, GPS, and other misc gear may run all day but thankfully they draw relatively little.

 Refrigeration is a real pig, even if you use an efficient little unit like my Engle, you are running it ALL THE TIME.  If you can get by without it, or figure out how to just use it to chill thee vening beverage for an hour before you set the hook you will be ahead of the curve.

 Re-read this thread from the beginning, much of what I am tempted to go into has already been covered here.


 You decide to budget for 40ah.  Your battery capacity must be at least 2x that, and your charging system needs to be equal to the task... but should probably be more like 150% to minimize the stress.

 I like my link 10 battery monitor.  Keeping track of the amps used by watching a gauge is too much work for me, plus there is another factor called pukert's exponent which causes larger loads to drain the batteries faster... the link 10 knows all that and can either express the energy used in terms of amp hours of percentage of capacity.

 Lets say you come up with 35ah underway, and 42ah on the hook.... you want something like 200 ah of capacity, and need to be able to charge at something greater then 50ah.

 Solar is widely considered to be the most reliable producer, and best amp / dollar investment.  It is not cheap, but once installed is mostly maintenance free, and with a proper regulator can go on and on without much attention.

 The problem is that the sun is not always shining.  If your 120w panel is putting out it's 10 amps it is only for a fraction of the day.  You can increase this number with a movable mount like James Baldwin uses on Atom.  Tough to day what you are going to get, but 30ah would be an optimistic estimate.

 I get a couple of amps out of my outboard's charger but we don't run it reliably enough to really count on the output.  I think they say it is 60w, but output is dependent on the batteries accepting the charge.  

 This is a big deal.  Just like your automotive battery charger your charging system is only going to charge as fast as the batteries allow.  New thin cell batteries claim to get around this but your 8d battery is 'old school' and will charge fast when partially discharged but more slowly as it the percentage of charge increases.

 Your Atomic 4, even with the smaller alternator will contribute to the mix, but your )hopefully) not going to run it every day.

 I made an error in my calculations and was cruising when I discovered it.  I had bought some Sunlinq panels and found they are garbage.  They made no where near their stated output and I took them down.  I ended up bringing a honda 1000 generator onboard that we used to make up the loss.

 Wind generators are expensive and most are noisy.  They do make energy at night, and as long as the wind blows you generally get something of the stated output.  I am looking into the little Rutland, but can not find anyone to say they have actually used it cruising and can recommend it.

 Some advocate the 'towed' generator, I don't see much utility in it.  Maybe if you were doing a long distance race, or trying to set some record... but most cruisers do more staying then sailing.  Generating power only while underway does not seem to be a great investment to me... and probably others too since you only see a couple of towed generators on the market today.  Again, re-read this thread and search this forum.

 This post is way too long, so I am going to stop typing now.   ;D  

Welcome to SailFar.  I am on many forums, but this is home.  Many of the other sites tend to talk down to small boat Sailors or offer advice that does not really suit our boats.  Human nature is to defend one's choices... so I do not object to their opinions.  I do find that more here offer opinions based on the realities of small boat sailing.

 





 

 

 



 


 

[s/v Faith]

Have you looked at Anderson Powerpoles? They aren't exactly "marine" but are used in a lot of nasty conditions in emergency communications. Take a look at http://www.ocraces.org/powerpole.html for the "standard" ham radio configuration. With a little Googling you should be able to find them for about 10USD / half-dozen if I remember right.

Dave,

  These look nice, I will check around.  Thanks

Highly conductive silver-plated copper contacts allow minimal contact resistance at high currents. Self-wiping action on make and break keeps conducting surfaces clean. Contact dents keep connectors mated in high-vibration applications and provide quick-break, snap action upon disconnect.

Non-corrosive stainless-steel leaf springs maintain constant contact pressure—ideal for frequent connections/disconnections and intermittent overloading. Durable, high impact-resistant, polycarbonate housing with UL94V-2 flammability ratings comes in many colors for circuit trace ability and coding.

Identical connector halves are genderless—making assembly quick and easy and reducing the number of parts stocked. Molded-in dovetails allow for customized harness in a variety of configurations. When the connectors are disconnected, no metal parts are exposed.

[TritonSkipper]

Jeff,

 I hope you don't mind my replying to your PM here on the forum.  The combined opinions of many beats the opinion of one.... at least mostly.  

 The energy question is one that will vary more by the Sailor and territory then by the boat (IMHO).

 The 'Energy budget' is a useful tool to build your energy system around, and to manage your use once you are underway.

 Can you really afford to run your laptop as a backup navigation system like some hope to do?  The energy budget (once validated) separates fact from fiction.... (not unless you have a lot of capacity!)

 The energy budget is an estimate of how much energy you are likely to use in a day.  You will need to oversize this, as there will be times you exceed the budget, and you should not plan to discharge your storage bank below 50% capacity or you will shorten it's life.

...Do you have any recommendations for solar panels, wind generators, and or gensets? I purchased a 245ah agm 8d battery(What do you have?). I will be running a blower, bilge, nav and cabin lights, vhf, ssb, Raymarine E80 series superpack...plotter, depth sounder and such. Also a laptop and possibly a weather fax. Would that battery be enough or do I need more power? I am trying to design my electrical system to be streamlined for cruising, including a monitoring system, which one i have no idea. A charging system that includes solar, wind, and alternator. I want to set up for shore power with an inverter, but if that's too much then I'll wait. How do you have your system set, is it working well for you?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Jeff

Take all of your electronic gear and look for the published current draw.  I put mine into a spread sheet and estimated the time in two categories, underway and on the hook.

 Multiply the amps x the time expected and you will get the amp hours.

One 500ma anchor light burning from dusk to dawn (~12 hours) = 6 amp hours (ah).

 Be very suspicious of some energy use claims.  Your Laptop is a power hog (unless one of the new netbook's do a search for real numbers).

Let's say your laptop running through the inverter draws 8 amps.  If you use it for 4 hours (check email, look at a chart, re-load the Ipod, and watch a DVD).  There went 32 amp hours.

 Some devices are going to be on pretty much all the time.  The VHF, GPS, and other misc gear may run all day but thankfully they draw relatively little.

 Refrigeration is a real pig, even if you use an efficient little unit like my Engle, you are running it ALL THE TIME.  If you can get by without it, or figure out how to just use it to chill thee vening beverage for an hour before you set the hook you will be ahead of the curve.

 Re-read this thread from the beginning, much of what I am tempted to go into has already been covered here.


 You decide to budget for 40ah.  Your battery capacity must be at least 2x that, and your charging system needs to be equal to the task... but should probably be more like 150% to minimize the stress.

 I like my link 10 battery monitor.  Keeping track of the amps used by watching a gauge is too much work for me, plus there is another factor called pukert's exponent which causes larger loads to drain the batteries faster... the link 10 knows all that and can either express the energy used in terms of amp hours of percentage of capacity.

 Lets say you come up with 35ah underway, and 42ah on the hook.... you want something like 200 ah of capacity, and need to be able to charge at something greater then 50ah.

 Solar is widely considered to be the most reliable producer, and best amp / dollar investment.  It is not cheap, but once installed is mostly maintenance free, and with a proper regulator can go on and on without much attention.

 The problem is that the sun is not always shining.  If your 120w panel is putting out it's 10 amps it is only for a fraction of the day.  You can increase this number with a movable mount like James Baldwin uses on Atom.  Tough to day what you are going to get, but 30ah would be an optimistic estimate.

 I get a couple of amps out of my outboard's charger but we don't run it reliably enough to really count on the output.  I think they say it is 60w, but output is dependent on the batteries accepting the charge.  

 This is a big deal.  Just like your automotive battery charger your charging system is only going to charge as fast as the batteries allow.  New thin cell batteries claim to get around this but your 8d battery is 'old school' and will charge fast when partially discharged but more slowly as it the percentage of charge increases.

 Your Atomic 4, even with the smaller alternator will contribute to the mix, but your )hopefully) not going to run it every day.

 I made an error in my calculations and was cruising when I discovered it.  I had bought some Sunlinq panels and found they are garbage.  They made no where near their stated output and I took them down.  I ended up bringing a honda 1000 generator onboard that we used to make up the loss.

 Wind generators are expensive and most are noisy.  They do make energy at night, and as long as the wind blows you generally get something of the stated output.  I am looking into the little Rutland, but can not find anyone to say they have actually used it cruising and can recommend it.

 Some advocate the 'towed' generator, I don't see much utility in it.  Maybe if you were doing a long distance race, or trying to set some record... but most cruisers do more staying then sailing.  Generating power only while underway does not seem to be a great investment to me... and probably others too since you only see a couple of towed generators on the market today.  Again, re-read this thread and search this forum.

 This post is way too long, so I am going to stop typing now.   ;D  

Welcome to SailFar.  I am on many forums, but this is home.  Many of the other sites tend to talk down to small boat Sailors or offer advice that does not really suit our boats.  Human nature is to defend one's choices... so I do not object to their opinions.  I do find that more here offer opinions based on the realities of small boat sailing.

Craig, thank you for the info. A little short though.

Regards,

Jeff

 





 

 

 



 


 

[s/v Faith]

Jeff,

Craig, thank you for the info. A little short though.

Regards,

Jeff

Ok, a few questions and a bit more.


 So, no refrigeration?  What are your intended cruising grounds?

8D battery (10" x 10" x 20") and heavy as all get out (but probably not much more then my 2 T-105's)

Model   UB-8D AGM
Weight   167  :o
Volts   12
Amp-Hour   250

 With no refrigeration, and assuming a reasonable (non-nav) use of the laptop I bet this will be good.

Do you plan a separate starting battery or are you staying KISS?

 Can you afford ~ $1500 - $2000?

If so a http://Kyocera Solar KD-135 135 Watt 12 Volt Solar Electric Panel[/img] ($415 which is a steal) mounted on the stern rail




with a[url=http://www.emarineinc.com/products/wind_generators/rutland913.html] Rutland 913 on a mount pole would probably be enough. ($895, plus pole, which I would fabricate locally, and regulator).



If you wanted to have a fall back position I might fit a larger capacity alternator.  I would not carry a portable generator if I had an inboard.. but that is just me.

  Of course these are suggestions for you to consider.  I am not the one that is going to be stuck out there in the shipping channel with no nav lights and unable to start my inboard.   ;D