First boat - 1968 Lapworth Gladiator?

[Lost Farmboy]

From listing:

1968 24' Gladiator sailboat and trailer for sale. Includes anchor and chain, six sails, all necessary lines, non-working outboard motor, and some other miscellaneous items. $1,980 OBO

http://olympic.craigslist.org/boa/2429662040.html

From owner's response to several of my e-mailed questions:

It was last sailed in September of 2008. Then motor overheated and seized up in the same month. Bottom paint was applied in June of 2008 but i have not painted anything else. The hull is in great shape. No delimitation or blistering. There are some places in the cabin where there is water damage on some of the plywood but nothing major or structural. I have never had any problems or issues with it. . . . It comes with the original mainsail and jib and also a mainsail, genoa, working jib and storm jib that are in new condition.

I've been looking for a well constructed boat both to learn on, and that has some cruising ability. The smallest boats that I have seen that appear to have adequate space for a passenger and stores are 22'-24' long. Having found a Gladiator, it appears to fit what I am looking for in a boat, but I would appreciate some second opinions, pointers on what issues to look for on Lapworths of this age. I have not yet gone to look at it in person, but several pictures can be seen on the Craigslist listing.

Thanks for the help,
Bryan

[Tim]

Hi Bryan, Welcome aboard. I don't have any experience with them, but it sounds like a plenty capable boat and the price is certainly right!

http://www.solopublications.com/sailglad.htm

Are you located on the Olympic Peninsula? A beautiful place.!

[mrb]

It was built before the first oil embargo.  They built them much tougher back the.  If you are close You need to check it out. 

[s/v Faith]

I suspect you would do quite well with such a capable little ship.  Robin Lee Graham
certainly found her to be so.  ;D

Take a look at this thread.  I suspect
you will find some items that might need to be addressed, but at that price it is going to be really tough
to go wrong.

Welcome aboard, I am glad you found us.   Please do post updates, sounds like the
beginning of a great adventure here!

[Captain Smollett]

Can I add my 'me too me too?'

Full keel with cutaway forefoot...
Motion comfort ratio of 22 ish, not bad at all for 24 footer...
Capsize screening ratio of 1.8 and change...less than 2...good
Crossed oceans and rounded Cape Horn...

Definitely worth a look!

Good luck, and welcome to sailfar.

[Lost Farmboy]

Thanks for all the responses, and I am glad to hear that this boat has promise! I am located about 15 miles east of the Olympic Peninsula, near Silverdale, WA.

Faith - I actually have a printout of the same post (probably by you) from SailNet, it will be good for me to review what exactly to look for.

Hopefully I'll have a chance to look at it in the next couple of days - it's only about 65 miles as the car drives.

[Lost Farmboy]

Saw it today, spent 3 hrs looking at it, and am still puzzling over it.

Items in need of being replaced-
-Outboard motor
-Winches (all original, no winch handles present)
-2 through hull gate valves and majority of tubing
-Marine toilet (original direct discharge type is present)
-Electrical system
-Companionway boards (water damage, poorly thought out, leak badly)

In need of repair
-Pop top and surrounding area (water damage, leaks badly)
-Various tabbed in components coming loose
-Motor well cover (does not keep out water, hinges shot)

Other things to figure out
-Find place at which to work on boat
-Find way to move boat from its current location to some place where I can work on it
-Pick the marina that fits my situation best
-Restepping the mast

Bright side
-Well constructed, chain plates are impressive
-Sails appear to be well made and in good condition
-Did not find delamination, even around the leaking poptop.
-Trailer is in good condition

Feel free to look at the pictures: https://picasaweb.google.com/bg7386/LapworthGladiator?feat=directlink

[tomwatt]

The marine head could be re-routed from direct-discharge to a holding tank/pumpout arrangement without it being the end of the world. But there seems to be an awful lot going on with that boat. Maybe you should start by bringing the price down a good chunk. A big chunk.
It will cost a bundle to bring that thing up to Bristol condition... and then, will it be worth more than $5k in gleaming condition?

[phil416]

     Well stated Tomwatt;  I went through this process with a Northern 25 and ended up selling it for what I paid.  Of course the new owner is delighted.  Such is the tuition at the University of Hard Knocks.  Phil

[s/v Faith]

Not too surprising, and frankly not much of an issue.

The boat sounds structurally good, so;

Items in need of being replaced-
-Outboard motor  - replace.  a new reliable motor (only need about 4 hp) is probably not an unreasonable investment.
-Winches (all original, no winch handles present) - You CAN find pretty much any one you need, but really many folks don't use the handles.  I can usually luff, and sheet in hard enough for what I am doing.
-2 through hull gate valves and majority of tubing - not a show stopper... good to replace, but not (IMHO) the crisis folks make them out to be.  Unless it is a garden hose silcock... many boats came with them OEM.
-Marine toilet (original direct discharge type is present) Cheap work around... get a porta-potty and use that.  Holding tanks on a boat that size are a chore to figure out... and (IMHO) a waste of space.  Look for a 'hassock' style, and it will be easy to empty and cheap.
-Electrical system -On a simple boat, should not be a major issue...  KISS.
-Companionway boards (water damage, poorly thought out, leak badly) Not too tough to make..

In need of repair
-Pop top and surrounding area (water damage, leaks badly) -I would expect this on a 1968 boat...
-Various tabbed in components coming loose Not too tough to fix
-Motor well cover (does not keep out water, hinges shot) Not sure how low the opening of the well is, but we did not even take the well cover with us... 

I would not pass for any of the issues you list here.

[Tim]

I agree with everything that Faith stated, I see nothing about the boat one wouldn't expect for a boat that age and certainly nothing a deal stopper.

The trailer alone is probably worth at least half of the asking price.

[s/v Faith]

The marine head could be re-routed from direct-discharge to a holding tank/pumpout arrangement without it being the end of the world. But there seems to be an awful lot going on with that boat. Maybe you should start by bringing the price down a good chunk. A big chunk.
It will cost a bundle to bring that thing up to Bristol condition... and then, will it be worth more than $5k in gleaming condition?

Tom brings up an excellent point.

Many folks get caught up in making her 'bristol' and forget to sail.  Most of the things you list are not 'downing' problems...   Avoid trips to 'West marine' without a shopping list.. you will wind up with a bunch of junk you don't need (and a lot less money).

I think that the 'investment' is not likely to be the $$$ you get back, but how will you put a number on what it is worth to get out there?  

[Godot]

I once knew a guy who lived on a Gladiator at my old marina while he was fixing up another boat.  He seemed happy enough (a bit of a hippy).  Boat never went anywhere, though.

[s/v Faith]

I once knew a guy who lived on a Gladiator at my old marina while he was fixing up another boat.  He seemed happy enough (a bit of a hippy).  Boat never went anywhere, though.

I know a guy like that....

... I won't share any names, but will say I have high hopes that he will eventually.  ;)

[Godot]

He was a good guy, doing his best to go cruising for a bit with his "lady friend."  I hope he made it.

[Tim]

I once knew a guy who lived on a Gladiator at my old marina while he was fixing up another boat.  He seemed happy enough (a bit of a hippy).  Boat never went anywhere, though.

I know a guy like that....

... I won't share any names, but will say I have high hopes that he will eventually.  ;)

LOL

[tomwatt]

edit: technical difficulties.

A shopping list focused on things you really, really need in order to get afloat is a great resource for those on a budget. Lest one of those $1,000 thing-a-ma-widgies winds up in your shopping cart.

[Lost Farmboy]

Again, thanks for all the responses. I ought to have been clearer with some of the items I put up as issues.

Tom- I recognize that this boat would not increase in resale value adequately to cover repair costs. Considering regular expenses (docking fees, paint, repairs), I would expect to pay for any sailboat that I could afford several times over. As the owner of a Vancouver 25 said on another site:

Here's the thing, though. Almost by definition, a sailboat makes no logical sense. It's not a rational thing to have . . . so the only way in which it can ever make any sort of sense to own one, is if its very existence gives you pleasure.

I will try to bring down the price, but there's only so far that a sub-$2000 boat with trailer can be lowered in price.

Faith- I concur with much of what you have said; having looked harder, the winches should not be a major issue, as I have found used handles available at a nearby marine exchange. Replacing the outboard with an operational 4-5 hp motor would not be overly expensive.

Leaks (and potential leaks) concern me greatly, both because I am in the Navy and opposed to leaks of any sort, and because I will be away for months at a time, unable to check on the boat.

Leakage into the motor well is possible, as can be seen in this picture: https://picasaweb.google.com/bg7386/LapworthGladiator#5617593247947650514. Due to the damaged lip under the motor well's cover, water can run inside during rains. As there are lower areas surrounding the motor well which lack drainage, water collects between the outside of the motor well, the inside of the hull, and the plywood separating the motor well from the cabin. Maintaining the integrity of the plywood is what concerns me here.

However, covering this (and the poptop/companionway) with tarp sections should prevent leakage into the motor well and cabin until they are repaired.

As far as replacing hoses and valves go, one in particular concerns me: one of the cockpit drain hoses is badly cracked upstream of the gate valve which isolates the cockpit drain hoses from their outlet: a through hull below the waterline. The sink and icebox have similarly damaged hoses, but can be isolated from the through hull with a ball valve.

The marine head should be relatively easy to replace, as you have stated, and the electrical system's absence primarily concerns me because there is no way to have a bilge pump installed which will (should) keep water levels down in my absence.


Overall, I only see the one gate valve and hose as items that must be replaced before getting the boat in the water, though I would replace all the hoses in the cockpit drain system at that time, just to keep things consistent. Bumpers and a working outboard would be useful (read: almost absolutely needed) for docking her. Adding a couple of life vests would make her adequately safe for use.

Incidentally, what tools are most frequently used by members (saws, sanders) for working on their boats, at their boats? I can see that I will be missing my table saw (100 pounds of steel 3000 miles from here) for most portions involving woodworking, and wondered how others equipped themselves when faced with a lack of space for tools.

Thanks for all the responses; am intending to find out more about local marinas and boatyards before giving an offer for the boat.

[tomwatt]

If there is a plus side to not having an existing electrical system... it's not having to deal with any old wiring disasters. You can start fresh with proper wiring done right.
And I agree, there is no financial logic to owning a boat.
I always wonder at people who purchase boats to fix up and sell, as it seems almost impossible to make a profit on such a transaction.
It has to belong in your heart, like so many other great loves.

[Tim]

Incidentally, what tools are most frequently used by members (saws, sanders) for working on their boats, at their boats? I can see that I will be missing my table saw (100 pounds of steel 3000 miles from here) for most portions involving woodworking, and wondered how others equipped themselves when faced with a lack of space for tools.

Don't worry about not having the table saw, the three most used power tools for me are; Jigsaw, Random orbital sander, and Fein Multimaster (or knock off)